I really like the concept of a lakeshore extension of the WFL.  It makes sense; the WFL terminates at the base of the lakeshore and extending it along the railroad or Shoreway corridor would seem comparatively easy.  Unfortunately, without a comprehensive plan to develop the Lakeshore, the WFL is going to be stuck with the problems it's had in its present state, which is slowly changing, development-wise.  Right now the Lakeshore close to a potential WFL extension is a combination of empty parkland, with crumbling, often abandoned industrial properties hugging NS' freight rail line.  An lakeshore WFL extension just wouldn't draw enough passengers at present...

 

However if you did extend the WFL east, the future of those warehouses beccomes a transition to housing.  Warehouse District 2.0 on the east side.  The extended WFL can encourage housing conversions, creating a mixed use live/work district with artists/residents/businesses that is adjacent to downtown and to growing AsiaTown, as well as the emerging Slovenian/East European redevelopment energy just now taking shape on East 55th street. 

In the Red Line/HealthLine extension study, the planning team included the Waterfront Line in the alternatives presented for screening. The extension of the Waterfront Line was routed east to Collinwood along the CSX rail corridor and then multiple options of corridors east of there. It was removed from further consideration very early on in the alternatives screening because it performed so badly.

 

However, if the Watefront Line was extended east as a streetcar on St. Clair, it might perform better. The St. Clair streetcar from downtown to Collinwood was the most heavily traveled streetcar route in the city, carrying more than 100,000 riders per day. That was more than the Euclid Avenue streetcar from downtown to East Cleveland.

^I was definitely thinking about future growth potential specifically for that area, but in the present there are definitely other areas that hold more potential for ridership and development as the study suggests.

I was trying to envision a combination of revitalization  of an area smack in the core of the city, with providing enhanced access to area along the lakefront. I am just ensorscelled by the idea of connecting public square, to the river, to the harbor,  to the lakefront parks at  E. 72nd and Rockefeller park, with nodes of ridership generators all along that stretch for  Kirtland park to the lakefront power plant 

I don't know why I'm fascinated by this, but I felt the urge to draw a network map of the rapid system with a bunch of new lines.

 

- I've added a "Shore Line", that along the lake, from Bay to Euclid.

- I've extended the Red Line to Berea and Elyria on the west, and to Euclid on the east.

- I've made the Waterfront into a small downtown loop.

- I've extended what is essentially CVSR all the way to TC.

- I've thrown in an Airport to Solon line, that connects with the CVSR line near Garfield.

 

I used: http://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator/# to draw the lines. And map is not to scale.

 

 

Here's a "Cleveland visitor" question. Are there any hotels walking distance to Rapid Stations? Such that you could tell a weekend visitor to park their car at the outskirts, and then take the rapid into downtown to enjoy themselves, without having to drive? Airport requires shuttles to hotels, and Tower City is already downtown, that you'll be paying a hefty parking fee.

^LaQuinta on W. 150th is my best recommendation.

^LaQuinta on W. 150th is my best recommendation.

 

Concur. That's my usual recommendation, especially for friends coming in from Columbus, Cincinnati or Toledo. I've yet to lose a friend from recommending it. It's a well-managed hotel, very affordable and the Rapid access is excellent. But I hope they aren't staying there until after the West Blvd-Triskett "bus-bridge" around the trackwork on the Red Line is done next week. Otherwise the bus ride will add as much as 30 minutes to the trip.

I don't know why I'm fascinated by this, but I felt the urge to draw a network map of the rapid system with a bunch of new lines.

 

- I've added a "Shore Line", that along the lake, from Bay to Euclid.

- I've extended the Red Line to Berea and Elyria on the west, and to Euclid on the east.

- I've made the Waterfront into a small downtown loop.

- I've extended what is essentially CVSR all the way to TC.

- I've thrown in an Airport to Solon line, that connects with the CVSR line near Garfield.

 

I used: http://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator/# to draw the lines. And map is not to scale.

 

I like it.  The Solon line wouldn't be very high on my priority list.  What about some BRT lines up the hill from University Circle down Cedar to Legacy Village and Beachwood, and up Mayfield from Little Italy out to Golden Gate?  We can dream.....

 

Very interesting.  I wonder if it would possible to guesstimate the demand for some of the lines that are essentially commuter rail, by initially running buses along those same or similar routes. 

I don't know why I'm fascinated by this, but I felt the urge to draw a network map of the rapid system with a bunch of new lines.

 

- I've added a "Shore Line", that along the lake, from Bay to Euclid.

- I've extended the Red Line to Berea and Elyria on the west, and to Euclid on the east.

- I've made the Waterfront into a small downtown loop.

- I've extended what is essentially CVSR all the way to TC.

- I've thrown in an Airport to Solon line, that connects with the CVSR line near Garfield.

 

I used: http://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator/# to draw the lines. And map is not to scale.

 

 

Here's a "Cleveland visitor" question. Are there any hotels walking distance to Rapid Stations? Such that you could tell a weekend visitor to park their car at the outskirts, and then take the rapid into downtown to enjoy themselves, without having to drive? Airport requires shuttles to hotels, and Tower City is already downtown, that you'll be paying a hefty parking fee.

 

University Circle has several, airport area has several, beachwood/woodmere has a few don't know if that would be walkable to end of Green Line.  Good points though, too bad Urban Ohio just can get a big pile of money and control

 

Very interesting.  I wonder if it would possible to guesstimate the demand for some of the lines that are essentially commuter rail, by initially running buses along those same or similar routes. 

 

Back in the 1980s, a British Company marketed and (I believe) lent a self-propelled diesel LRT commuter rail car to RTA.  RTA temporarily leased/used NS tracks and ran the LRT car from Mentor to Terminal Tower (no TC in those days).  IIRC, the car was low platform and stopped in Euclid and then connected with the current Rapid at RTA's E. 55 shops/yards and ran the final 2.5 miles over the Red/Blue/Green main line into the, then, Shaker LRT terminal...

 

I recall this experiment being a huge hit, but at the end of the lease period, RTA returned the car and there was no further pursuit of commuter service in this corridor (aside from RTA GM Ron Tober's proposals for commuter rail in the late 1990s) until the current Red Line extension proposal to Euclid Square which, itself, appears shaky.  So it goes for non-aggressive transit policy for RTA, it's (sad) a tradition.

It was the British Leyland Railbus and during its Spring 1985 two-month revenue demonstration, it was packed to the doors (about 80 people) on its runs between Tower City, Euclid and Mentor. It was the brainchild of RTA planner Rich Enty who is now the GM of Akron Metro RTA.

 

While it didn't lead to rail service to Lake County, it did cause Laketran to begin operating park-n-ride express bus service between Mentor and downtown Cleveland, which since has been increased to multiple routes.

^Well, then at least some good came of it.

 

Railbus; that's what it was called! ... I remember waiting on the Shaker platform with my Dad heading home during rush hour... We had to wait until the Railbus to load and clear before our train could board.  I do remember it was packed and people were excited that this experiment would lead to Lake County commuter rail.

I have a Railbus ticket around here somewhere. I thought I scanned it and saved it, but I didn't. However, as I was looking for it on my PC, I found these photos taken by Central Rail staff who made up these destination scrolls in the mid-1980s....

 

Tokyu-Westlake2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Tokyu-Solon by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Tokyu-Mentor by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Tokyu-Euclid2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Only the last one has any (very slight) chance of materializing, it seems.  (sigh)

There's something sort of sad and telling about RTA being able to make fake destination scrolls in the 1980s but now being unable to find a way to provide real ones for the current LRT fleet.

They only made the labels on an existing scroll. In fact, about 15 years ago I watched a Red Line train operator scroll through its destinations on that scroll at Tower City, and one of those "off line" cities was still on the scroll. That's when I asked a friend who used to for RTA about the city name (don't remember which one) and that's when he sent the pictures to me.

 

The machines to run the scrolls are no longer made. RTA would have to make it themselves. Not worth it. The LED lights have no moving parts and are much more cost-effective.

 

However, I have a BIG problem with this: RTA plans to spend $259,000 for a marketing campaign this year. $259,000 buys for RTA an entire bus route offering hourly service. How can RTA be spending this much while it's cutting service?

http://www.riderta.com/sites/default/files/pdf/presentations/2016-04-05marketing.pdf

 

Instead, ask the marketing clubs at local universities to compete with each other on designing and implementing a digital/social media marketing campaign and award $10,000 in scholarships to the winning club, $5,000 to the second-place club and $2,500 to the third-place club. Spend $17,500 instead of $259,000 and engage the young people of Northeast Ohio!

If I'm reading the presentation correctly, all $259,000 is due to actual delivery costs...tv ads, radio ads, digital ads & mailers.

 

So I'm not sure they could do what you propose :/  I will say the digital ad costs seem pretty high, but that's not an area I have any knowledge in so it could be appropriate.

^^Yeah, sorry, I was using "scroll" more generally. At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I never understood why RTA can't just slip a cheap, generic LED sign board up there with actual destination lettering, instead of just a strip of colored LEDs. Is there really nothing between the antiquated scrolls and having no true destination sign at all? Never made any sense to me.

If I'm reading the presentation correctly, all $259,000 is due to actual delivery costs...tv ads, radio ads, digital ads & mailers.

 

So I'm not sure they could do what you propose :/  I will say the digital ad costs seem pretty high, but that's not an area I have any knowledge in so it could be appropriate.

 

Which is why I wouldn't spend any money on those media venues. I'd do only a guerrilla and social media campaign and get the traditional media to cover it as a news story. If it's not feasible then scrap the marketing campaign all together. Now is not the time to be spending so much money on advertising while services are being cut.

Fair enough, I have absolutely no idea what ROI either type of advertising would bring.

 

However, I have a BIG problem with this: RTA plans to spend $259,000 for a marketing campaign this year. $259,000 buys for RTA an entire bus route offering hourly service. How can RTA be spending this much while it's cutting service?

http://www.riderta.com/sites/default/files/pdf/presentations/2016-04-05marketing.pdf

 

Instead, ask the marketing clubs at local universities to compete with each other on designing and implementing a digital/social media marketing campaign and award $10,000 in scholarships to the winning club, $5,000 to the second-place club and $2,500 to the third-place club. Spend $17,500 instead of $259,000 and engage the young people of Northeast Ohio!

 

And to add insult to injury from, at least, the RTA radio ads I've heard, it will likely be $259K poorly spent.  Those cutesy, minimal-information ads (the one's I've heard, at least) are nauseating; ... a total waste of time not likely to sway even 1 person to utilize RTA.

^ From what I've seen and heard so far, it seems RTA is "trying too hard." Trying to be "hip" to appeal to Millennials is almost never successful.

To my generation, it's like when punk and new wave went mainstream, none of their fans wanted any part of them anymore.

I have a Railbus ticket around here somewhere.

 

 

Found it. Here's the front and back of the ticket...

 

Cleveland-Railbus-Demo-Ticket-1985s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

I have a Railbus ticket around here somewhere.

 

 

Found it. Here's the front and back of the ticket...

 

 

I rode on one of the trips (I think there were only a few?) from downtown to what's now the Euclid Park & Ride.  I don't remember it well - I'd have been in my late teens - but I was definitely there, and definitely hopeful that more would come of it eventually than it actually has thus far. 

^^$1.50 round-trip from Mentor to downtown Cleveland!?  Now that's a fare folks could live with.  (was the $.035 rapid fare still in effect then?)

Hey KJP what were the technical details of this Mentor route?  Was it on unused tracks? 

^^$1.50 round-trip from Mentor to downtown Cleveland!?  Now that's a fare folks could live with.  (was the $.035 rapid fare still in effect then?)

 

The 35-cent fare ended by 1980. I'm pretty sure RTA was charging its standard intra-county and inter-county fares.

 

Hey KJP what were the technical details of this Mentor route?  Was it on unused tracks? 

 

RTA had one of the shorter British Railbus vehicles delivered from the UK to Cleveland. The demonstration ran every weekday for a month, from roughly mid-April into about mid-May of 1985.

 

The Railbus was stored overnight at the then brand-new Central Rail facility at East 55th. It used a transfer track at Central Rail to access the Norfolk Southern mainline to Buffalo used by about a dozen freight trains a day. RTA was able to secure a "window" in between the freight train schedule to run four roundtrips each weekday. The railbus went out to Mentor on the NS tracks, stopping at Dille or Highland Road in Euclid (I don't remember which one). RTA built a small wooden platform, the width of a sidewalk, up to the tracks from a gravel parking lot. The Railbus continued on to Mentor, stopping at Station Street (IIRC) just past SR615. The Railbus reversed direction (it had operator cabs at both ends) and departed Mentor about 6:30 a.m. or so for downtown Cleveland.

 

The Railbus traveled at about 55 mph which was the top speed for NS freight trains on that line and again paused at Euclid to pick up more passengers. But towards the end of the demonstration, few of those boarding at Euclid could fit on this run of the Railbus because it was so crowded (luckily there was a second run). The Railbus crossed over to RTA tracks using the transfer track at Central Rail. This required having an RTA and NS employee on site to oversee the transfer and to hand-throw the switches as this crossover wasn't remoted-controlled by a dispatcher. The Railbus rolled through the RTA Central Rail yards at 10 mph and entered the RTA mainline, rolling at 45 mph to Tower City station. It had to the use the Shaker station with its low-level platforms because the floor level of the Railbus didn't match up with the level of the Red Line station's high-level platforms. After a nearly 1-hour trip from Mentor, the Railbus arrived its Tower City destination.

 

But the Railbus' morning rush-hour work wasn't done. It made a reverse trip to Euclid, carrying a few passengers to local industries. When it arrived the Euclid station, it let off those few passengers and let on a couple dozen downtown-bound passengers who had learned they couldn't fit on the earlier, crowded run. That trip left Euclid shortly before 9 a.m. (maybe it was as early as 8:30?) and arrived Tower City about 9:15 a.m. -- IIRC. I seem to recall the trip to downtown from Euclid was about 30 minutes. The Railbus returned to Central Rail to wait for the afternoon rush hour.

 

The afternoon trips worked in reverse of the morning schedule. The Railbus returned to Tower City and loaded up a smattering of passengers for Euclid, departing at 3 p.m. or so. It went through the transfer track at Central Rail and hopped on the Norfolk Southern tracks to Euclid via University Circle (paralleling the Red Line -- but there was no existing transfer track between the two lines east of East 55th). After dropping off the Euclid-bound passengers, the train picked up a couple of riders (or novelty-seekers merely stayed on board for a round-trip) and returned downtown. It arrived Tower City's Shaker Rapid station to pick up the big crowd and depart about 5:30-5:45 p.m. for Mentor, stopping enroute at Euclid.

 

I remember watching one of the first runs in the afternoon to Euclid and back. My father and I drove from Geauga County to London Road in Collinwood to watch the first afternoon outbound run and saw it return west to downtown about 15-20 minutes later. There were very few people on that run. I took pictures and shot Beta video of that run. Yes, I still have the Beta tape of that!

 

Shortly before the Railbus demonstration service ended, I borrowed my dad's car and drove to Kirtland Road in Willoughby to catch the run to Mentor. I remember it was operating very fast and the Railbus was so full you couldn't see through the windows to the other side of the vehicle because of the shadowed mass of humanity jammed inside. A TV news crew rode the last run and shot footage of it, showing how standees were jammed into the Railbus. Many folks told the reporter they would write letters to their elected officials urging them to approve funding to keep the Railbus or to create a true commuter train service with locomotives hauling strings of passenger cars. Instead, their elected officials funded Laketran's park-n-ride bus services which had never existed before the Railbus. The bus service from Lake County to downtown Cleveland started with one route from Mentor and soon expanded to six routes with multiple buses per day per route. But it all began in 1985 with a little train that could. Too bad it couldn't stick around....

 

I'm somewhat awed that after more than 30 years you remember all of this detail.  I didn't.  I did take one ride to Euclid from downtown, on what I believe to have been one of the first few trips.  I have little recollection beyond this.

 

What I don't get is why, in spite of this very successful demonstration, proving that there was significant demand for commuter rail to/from the northeast suburbs, it was never seriously considered.  The "extend Red Line to Euclid" doesn't count IMO as this would be much more expensive than commuter rail and therefore a non-starter given today's budget constraints.  The huge difference that most people don't seem to understand is that you need MUCH less infrastructure for a self-propelled diesel or diesel-electric car.  No overhead catenary, no third rail, stations only every few miles or so, if that.  And we already have well-maintained track to and from many of the population centers in northeast Ohio.  It is of course controlled by freight railroads, but freight traffic has declined substantially in most places, so I would think they would be willing, if not eager, to cooperate.  Labor costs should not be much different than for existing park & ride services, but the potential exists to recover much more of those and other costs at the farebox, since people are generally willing to pay much more for reliable commuter rail services than for the services RTA currently offers (including park & ride, which is grossly inferior to commuter rail since it sits in the same traffic one could just as easily drive in).

 

If I had the kind of money to be able to invest in another limited proof-of-concept, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  And I'd probably do it on exactly that corridor - Cleveland, Collinwood, Euclid, Willoughby, Mentor.  The Cleveland-Lakewood-Westlake-Avon-Lorain route might be more lucrative but also a lot more work and money to set up, chiefly due to the numerous at-grade crossings in Lakewood. 

I have an eidetic memory for things that occurred 30 some years ago. But I can't tell you what I did 30 days ago!

 

As part of the Red Line/HealthLine extension study, the Consulting team looked at a commuter rail option that involved running lightweight rail cars over RTA tracks west of Windermere and NS tracks east of Windermere. Unfortunately the capital costs of increasing the capacity of the NS tracks was relatively high for the ridership generated. Thus this option was not cost effective and therefore would not have been able to win federal funds.

 

 

I'm somewhat awed that after more than 30 years you remember all of this detail.  I didn't.  I did take one ride to Euclid from downtown, on what I believe to have been one of the first few trips.  I have little recollection beyond this.

 

What I don't get is why, in spite of this very successful demonstration, proving that there was significant demand for commuter rail to/from the northeast suburbs, it was never seriously considered.  The "extend Red Line to Euclid" doesn't count IMO as this would be much more expensive than commuter rail and therefore a non-starter given today's budget constraints.  The huge difference that most people don't seem to understand is that you need MUCH less infrastructure for a self-propelled diesel or diesel-electric car.  No overhead catenary, no third rail, stations only every few miles or so, if that.  And we already have well-maintained track to and from many of the population centers in northeast Ohio.  It is of course controlled by freight railroads, but freight traffic has declined substantially in most places, so I would think they would be willing, if not eager, to cooperate.  Labor costs should not be much different than for existing park & ride services, but the potential exists to recover much more of those and other costs at the farebox, since people are generally willing to pay much more for reliable commuter rail services than for the services RTA currently offers (including park & ride, which is grossly inferior to commuter rail since it sits in the same traffic one could just as easily drive in).

 

If I had the kind of money to be able to invest in another limited proof-of-concept, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  And I'd probably do it on exactly that corridor - Cleveland, Collinwood, Euclid, Willoughby, Mentor.  The Cleveland-Lakewood-Westlake-Avon-Lorain route might be more lucrative but also a lot more work and money to set up, chiefly due to the numerous at-grade crossings in Lakewood. 

 

Agreed.  All those rail lines radiating out from downtown deep into the populous burbs are a wasted resource.  Cleveland could truly have a great and comprehensive transit network but for just a little foresight and effort.

^About the WFL much-discussed Loop.  As I noted, I would short-loop the WFL down 18th, then back to TC via Prospect, Huron dropping down into the never-used subway back to TC... the difference is, though, that the looping-back trains would not use the current Rapid station, but the extant, unused Shaker station... Then from there, trains would veer over to the subway deck of the Detroit-Superior bridge utilizing the old subway station under W. 25th then rising onto Detroit, through Gordon Square, the doglegging to the NW under Lake Ave to a terminal at Edgewater park.  -- If we wanted to go rough, the trains could head out on the surface in the curb lanes of Clifton Blvd utilizing some, but not all, the # 55/CSU BRT-Lite brick station stops all the way out to a downtown Rocky River terminal...

 

ONE MAJOR PLUS: with LRT's using the old D-S subway and station at W. 25, RTA could TERMINATE ALL WEST SIDE BUSES at the 2 close-in West Side stations: the current Red Line station at Ohio City, and the old/new one at W. 25th & Detroit (with the new Detroit Rd LRT replacing the inner portion of the current #26 bus).  And with this, Public Sq. area bus congestion would be cut in half. ... I might send 1 West Side bus line into downtown over the bridge to loop around the WHD, (maybe the no. 81 to Tremont) but that would be it.

 

I'm somewhat awed that after more than 30 years you remember all of this detail.  I didn't.  I did take one ride to Euclid from downtown, on what I believe to have been one of the first few trips.  I have little recollection beyond this.

 

What I don't get is why, in spite of this very successful demonstration, proving that there was significant demand for commuter rail to/from the northeast suburbs, it was never seriously considered.  The "extend Red Line to Euclid" doesn't count IMO as this would be much more expensive than commuter rail and therefore a non-starter given today's budget constraints.  The huge difference that most people don't seem to understand is that you need MUCH less infrastructure for a self-propelled diesel or diesel-electric car.  No overhead catenary, no third rail, stations only every few miles or so, if that.  And we already have well-maintained track to and from many of the population centers in northeast Ohio.  It is of course controlled by freight railroads, but freight traffic has declined substantially in most places, so I would think they would be willing, if not eager, to cooperate.  Labor costs should not be much different than for existing park & ride services, but the potential exists to recover much more of those and other costs at the farebox, since people are generally willing to pay much more for reliable commuter rail services than for the services RTA currently offers (including park & ride, which is grossly inferior to commuter rail since it sits in the same traffic one could just as easily drive in).

 

If I had the kind of money to be able to invest in another limited proof-of-concept, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  And I'd probably do it on exactly that corridor - Cleveland, Collinwood, Euclid, Willoughby, Mentor.  The Cleveland-Lakewood-Westlake-Avon-Lorain route might be more lucrative but also a lot more work and money to set up, chiefly due to the numerous at-grade crossings in Lakewood. 

I wonder how much of the resistance was residual opposition to lines which serve the suburbs and downtown, but not inner city stops in between?

 

Back then Euclid would be, in demographics and mindset, a lot more like Willoughby or even Mentor today. 

I wonder how much of the resistance was residual opposition to lines which serve the suburbs and downtown, but not inner city stops in between?

 

Back then Euclid would be, in demographics and mindset, a lot more like Willoughby or even Mentor today.  [/color]

 

Agreed, but, in truth, the line would have benefited city residents as well, PROVIDED that:  (a) the combination of farebox and other revenues made the service at least revenue-neutral, or even better, best-case, helped to subsidize the more traditional urban transit; and (b) reverse commutes would have been served as well, which, even in 1985, was already an established need.  Probably via transfers at Windermere and some degree of feeder bus service within Lake County, which did not then exist, but in rudimentary form (LakeTran) does exist today.

Seems like some of the reverse commute potential would come from the neighborhoods getting skipped over.  But if express commuter rail is doable, let's do it.  I still think extending the red line and the waterfront line are important, but commuter rail would fill a big need too.

Seems like some of the reverse commute potential would come from the neighborhoods getting skipped over.  But if express commuter rail is doable, let's do it.  I still think extending the red line and the waterfront line are important, but commuter rail would fill a big need too.

That's why you want to make sure there is a stop at Windermere, to transfer to and from local services.  This corridor is already the best covered in the city, with the Red Line, Health Line, #3, and other feeder routes connecting at Windermere.  Perhaps a connection with the #94 further east would be useful as well. 

That's a good solution.  I was thinking it would run along the lake the whole way, but it doesn't have to.

 

I wonder how much of the resistance was residual opposition to lines which serve the suburbs and downtown, but not inner city stops in between?

 

Back then Euclid would be, in demographics and mindset, a lot more like Willoughby or even Mentor today. 

 

I seriously doubt that had anything to do with it.  RTA and local officials likely considered the expenses renting track space, building commuter rail stations, requisite communications systems, purchasing rail equipment, insuring the freight RR carries etc. and deemed it all to be too expensive and difficult to undertake.  So, as has often been the case with big projects in this town/region, officials decided to do nothing (other than create the bases for LakeTran, which is a good, albeit relatively small, thing compared to commuter rail).  This City and region (and State, for that matter) has a tendency to shy away from major challenging projects, especially public works projects that aren't highways/freeways -- think closing Burke and building luxury lakefront apartments and townhouses (too much Federal red tape in closing an airport), expanding CVSR into Tower City (see above viz the commuter rail proposal),  any (rail) Rapid Transit extension -- too long a waiting period, too much Federal red tape (environment studies, alternative analyses, etc) and, oh btw,  RTA is broke so, you actually want to look to the furture!? expand the Rapid!?... are you crazy!? ... the stiff-upper lip look is far more becoming...

 

...In fairness, the recent growth of downtown and some other in-city neighborhoods represents a change in this thinking, which is amazing in many ways ... but the old inertia still exists.

The bigger cost was the building of extra track, signals, wider bridges, grade-separated rail/rail crossings along the rail lines. Nearly all rail lines with direct routes into downtown are fairly busy with freight. The rail lines that are lightly used (namely the CSX line to Strongsville/Medina and the NS/CCR line to Solon/Aurora) need major investment to access downtown. For the CSX line, it needs a way to get straight into downtown via a new bridge over I-71 between Linndale and Brookside Park and a new track into downtown. For the NS/CCR line, it needs a grade-separated bridge over the busy NS Cleveland Line near Union Ave/East 80s and restored track into Tower City (or 5-6 miles of new dedicated track alongside the Cleveland Line to downtown lakefront at about $5-20 million per track-mile). Even the NS line to Lakewood lacks direct access to the Central Business District. To attain that comprised a significant portion of the $90 million needed to start up a basic commuter rail service of several round trips per weekday. Lorain County couldn't afford the operating or capital cost and Cleveland RTA was largely disinterested.

^Lots of expenses, to be sure.  But no pain, no gain.  If leaders from this region really were interested in transit and smart growth, they could make it happen -- at least, some of it.  Meanwhile out in the woods just off I-271, Pinecrest in Orange village, Fairmount's East Side answer to Crocker Park, is rising.  Just more sprawl -- only this project, like CP, will be another cute little, faux urban-looking, mixed-use neighborhood ... but like with CP, at the edge of the county. 

 

When you don't expand transit, you get more and more of this stuff ... but I guess this is the way we (collectively) want it. 

Unfortunately the only commuter rail routes that would produce enough ridership to justify the costs are the routes to Lorain and Aurora. Cleveland-Akron-Canton was projected to be third.

I'm wondering, then, why RTA couldn't/shouldn't pursue the Aurora route?  Nearly the entire route into TC is either fully abandoned or lightly used.  They could build the line right up to the Geauga County border but within Cuyahoga county so as not to have to worry about their financing.  As for the Lorain end, has RTA even approached Lorain county about joint financing or creating a transit agency to do so?  The West Shore commuter rail idea sounded like it had promise and even some political and media support in Lorian.  IIRC they even built a station in/near downtown Lorain anticipating passenger rail service.

 

Also, how accurate were these studies?  Weren't they done nearly 2 decades ago?  Who did them?  They kinda seem self-serving in reinforcing inertia.

^Lots of expenses, to be sure.  But no pain, no gain.  If leaders from this region really were interested in transit and smart growth, they could make it happen -- at least, some of it.  Meanwhile out in the woods just off I-271, Pinecrest in Orange village, Fairmount's East Side answer to Crocker Park, is rising.  Just more sprawl -- only this project, like CP, will be another cute little, faux urban-looking, mixed-use neighborhood ... but like with CP, at the edge of the county. 

 

When you don't expand transit, you get more and more of this stuff ... but I guess this is the way we (collectively) want it.

 

Yep, sure seems that way.  The leaders in this region haven't been able to turn around what was once the City of Cleveland's decline that has morphed into regional decline in the past 60 years, so how do you expect leadership on transit?  The verdict on area leaders' interest in transit was rendered 60 years ago: not interested.

 

What we get is ''studies'' to extend the Red Line from East Cleveland (no comment) to Euclid (East Cleveland, the Sequel).  I'm sure there would be tons taxpaying riders on this $1 billion extension.  We did get the HealthLine though, a watered down version of the original DualHub but provides the service riders want.  There really is no reason to even have a Red Line on the east side at this point. 

 

The area continues to elect and support inept leaders on all levels.  The City of Cleveland was run into the ground, the worst recent culprit being Mayor Michael White.  Jimmy Dimora & Co. was akin to having Tony Soprano & Co. running Cuyahoga County with the old County Bldg (Lakeside/Ontario) as the Bada-Bing.

 

 

^I agree with some of your points. 

 

And while this is a transit discussion, maybe on another thread you can explain how Mike White was the worst culprit in terms of running the city into the ground.  He was far from perfect, I agree, but in fact, many of the seeds of today's significant renaissance in Cleveland were planted under his administration: developing the Beacon housing and similar townhouse/apt development in, around the Clinic; tearing down and rebuilding much of the decrepit East Side CMHA housing which, today, look like suburban tracts. fixing up the rundown streetscape of Ohio City and fixing up the Market Sq district; landing the stadiums in Gateway which turned a derelict, peep-show/hooker precinct into the busy sports, sports-bar, restaurant, apartment and hotel district; building the Rock Hall and the Science museum in NC harbor, when the former hadn't been nailed down and may have been lost to another city -- you can't deny the major image boost the Rock Hall has had for Cleveland; and yes (I know you hate it), the Waterfront Rapid Line, which is slowly spawning TOD and will develop more.  White did other positive things and I'm not listing them all. He had his goofs, too, like losing a potential move of Progressive Insurance into downtown... Like I said, the man wasn't perfect, but White did much more good than bad and can hardly be blamed as the "main culprit" for Cleveland's decline, which is simply ridiculous. 

 

Anyway, that's my spiel; back to transit ideas for the future, like the very viable idea of commuter rail along radiating freight rail lines.

You need to reread or get glasses as my post stated ''most recent culprit'' not Cleveland's ''worst culprit''.  You read what you want to read or you respond without reading, so check the ''ridiculous'' comments when you can't follow the posts.

 

The Rock Hall & Gateway were going forward prior to White taking office and, apparently, you didn't see the stories on the financial disarray at City Hall when White took office.  Recall the city's financial director with the $49.00 college degree certificate (the Master's Degree option was $79.00).

 

I don't hate the WFL but it has yet, after 20 years, created true TOD. It's not convenient and doesn't go anywhere but is handy for some special events like Browns games and the Air Show.  When are people going to start using it?  I noticed you didn't give the White administration credit for creating the WFL. Looks like no one at City Hall during that era had a $49.00 college degree certificate in Transit Planning.

 

The City of Cleveland's inept transit leadership continues in the form of Dr. Valarie McCall.

 

So, while flowers were being planted on W 25 Street and the projects were being revamped, the bills at City Hall went unattended, jobs and population continued to dwindle and large employment opportunities like Progressive, the Navy Payroll Center and FedEx hub did not happen, the Browns left, the Flats collapsed even as the WFL ghost trains kept running.  See also Nate Gray & Ricardo Teamor, part of the overall City Hall bribery and corruption department.

 

I'll use the term renaissance for Cleveland when I see sustained (or really any) population and job growth.  Cleveland's ''renaissance'' is now heading into its 4th decade.

 

 

 

You need to reread or get glasses as my post stated ''most recent culprit'' not Cleveland's ''worst culprit''.  You read what you want to read or you respond without reading, so check the ''ridiculous'' comments when you can't follow the posts.

 

The Rock Hall & Gateway were going forward prior to White taking office and, apparently, you didn't see the stories on the financial disarray at City Hall when White took office.  Recall the city's financial director with the $49.00 college degree certificate (the Master's Degree option was $79.00).

 

I don't hate the WFL but it has yet, after 20 years, created true TOD. It's not convenient and doesn't go anywhere but is handy for some special events like Browns games and the Air Show.  When are people going to start using it?  I noticed you didn't give the White administration credit for creating the WFL. Looks like no one at City Hall during that era had a $49.00 college degree certificate in Transit Planning.

 

The City of Cleveland's inept transit leadership continues in the form of Dr. Valarie McCall.

 

So, while flowers were being planted on W 25 Street and the projects were being revamped, the bills at City Hall went unattended, jobs and population continued to dwindle.

 

I'll use the term renaissance for Cleveland when I see sustained (or really any) population and job growth.  Cleveland's ''renaissance'' is now heading into its 4th decade.

 

 

  The City of Cleveland was run into the ground, the worst recent culprit being Mayor Michael White. 

 

 

 

You may have meant to type "most recent culprit," but you wrote "worst recent culprit."  I think that's why you got the response you did. 

The WFL set us back decades, in terms of transit investments.  Poster child for waste and poor planning.  And as noted, White was the first to start aggressively suburbanizing the city, the polar opposite of TOD.  And don't forget what he did to the Flats.  Michael White might be the most destructive mayor Cleveland ever had, and that's saying something.

 

 

  The City of Cleveland was run into the ground, the worst recent culprit being Mayor Michael White. 

 

 

 

You may have meant to type "most recent culprit," but you wrote "worst recent culprit."  I think that's why you got the response you did.

 

No, White's the worst of the most recent culprits, not the worst in Cleveland history, but the worst in its recent past.