On 1/24/2019 at 11:39 AM, KJP said:

 

Care to cite some data, YG? Here's a citation countering your personal belief...

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/transit-ridership-continues-to-grow-in-central-seattle-while-solo-car-commutes-decline/

 

Got anything that's you know, relevant? Seattle is the 10th most dense city in the U.S. and has nearly 3,000 more people per square mile than Cleveland. When you start approaching that type of density, then yes, changes in lifestyle are made. There's some data.
Answer me this, on any given day can you drive downtown and find a parking spot within say 3 blocks of your destination? The answer is yes. People won't use other means until that is not a reality.

The things about Cleveland, Detroit, Columbus, Pittsburgh is that they are auto oriented cities.  Continuing to compare to transit oriented cities is a losing battle.

 

A more positive lens to view the situation is which cities have successfully migrated from an auto oriented to transit oriented development.  That is a much more valueable conversation.

 

Edited January 29, 20196 yr by tklg

Cities don't become transit-friendly or car-dependent because of the weather of genetics. They become so because of conscious decisions by public- and private-sector leaders about what these communities want to be. All of these Midwest cities had extensive and popular transit systems that were built simultaneously as the high-density neighborhoods which nurtured them. And both were systematically dismantled by those who coveted a different model of transportation and land use. Of the four you listed, Pittsburgh was the last to have an extensive network of commuter trains (lasted into the 1990s) and trolleys (some still remain). Pro-highway forces cut off state funding for train and transit systems and starved them of funds to improve, while simultaneously building expressways along former rail lines. Only in recent years has there been a successful effort to restore state transit funding to meaningful levels, now exceeding $1 billion per year (compared to Ohio's $35 million per year).

 

This is Pittsburgh's rail trolley system in 1957 (much of the system was decimated in the 1960s and 70s)....

Redirected from the Cleveland Random Developments thread....

12 hours ago, KJP said:

You have to build something big with big cash flows on those parking lots to generate more profit than the parking does.  The capital stack for the Lumen apartment building shows just how difficult this can be. An alternative is to reduce the value of the parking lots by reducing their demand. For what it's worth, a single 250-passenger commuter train from/to the suburbs each workday reduces the demand for 2.5 acres of surface parking lot downtown. Put five trains on five routes and you've eliminated the demand for 60 acres of surface parking downtown. That would pretty much eliminate the demand for all of downtown's surface parking inventory.

 

And....to add to my parking comments on the previous page, return on-street parking to downtown streets. And provide it on all days. It's amazing how little on-street parking there is downtown, which also acts as a form if traffic calming and provides a safety/noise buffer for pedestrians. Better still, contract on-street parking and city-owned lots to a private firm and use the revenue to provide the operating and/or capital support for a regional commuter rail service. 

Maybe GCRTA can be ahead of the curve for a change.   I suspect Visa would pick up some of the cost to have a successful US example.

 

https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/visa-to-launch-touchless-transit-fare-system/549152/

Thanks. Shared with GCRTA management.

I hadn't been through CUT in a few weeks but this morning I was pleasantly surprised to  see QR scanners at some of the queues for the mobile fare cards. The old method was wave your phone in the air.

Edited March 1, 20196 yr by viscomi

14 minutes ago, viscomi said:

I hadn't been through CUT in a few weeks but this morning I was pleasantly surprised to  see QR scanners at some of the queues for the mobile fare cards. The old method was wave your phone in the air.

 

Here's a picture of them. I first noticed them when I was back in Cleveland in late December. They were pretty easy to use too. 

And then there's this:

 

http://www.govtech.com/biz/Transit-Startup-Optibus-Adds-Route-Planning-to-Platform.html

MONORAIL! Some interesting links in this post.

Edited April 20, 20196 yr by surfohio

It's a wide-track people mover, not a monorail. Instead, the grant that Cleveland won went to Detroit to help distribute people around downtown from its SEMTA commuter rail station next to Renaissance Center. The Detroit People Mover began operation in 1987 -- four years after the SEMTA commuter rail service stopped running.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

It's a wide-track people mover, not a monorail. Instead, the grant that Cleveland won went to Detroit to help distribute people around downtown from its SEMTA commuter rail station next to Renaissance Center. The Detroit People Mover began operation in 1987 -- four years after the SEMTA commuter rail service stopped running.

 

One thing to consider is that even when downtown Detroit was seen as almost universally Dangerous, the People Mover was perceived as safe.

Since it was unmanned, I always heard the opposite. In the 1990s, I heard it described as a Mobile Mugging Machine.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Since it was unmanned, I always heard the opposite. In the 1990s, I heard it described as a Mobile Mugging Machine.

 

Interesting.   I used to go to the SAE show every year until 1993 or so, when it was considered a big deal that the "safe zone" was extended to the street between the Renaissance Center (aka "Fort Westin") and Cobo Hall.  But everyone associated with the show said the PM was safe and we took it to Greektown (way pre-casino) a couple times.

On 4/20/2019 at 7:54 AM, surfohio said:

MONORAIL! Some interesting links in this post.

 

 

Some interesting discussion about the People Mover and some links to it's history that I posted in late '17:  

 

https://forum.urbanohio.com/topic/15535-norman-krumholz-legacy-on-clevelands-planning-and-development/?do=findComment&comment=802271

 

Edited April 24, 20196 yr by jeremyck01

I hope you saw and enjoyed the Google My Maps that I created of past Cleveland transit proposals over in the "Cleveland Transit Story in maps and graphics" thread.  I have a couple additional discussion topics I thought would be more appropriate here.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QdwBIIwzrjApYrytwx8x5gkIHbngBlvr&usp=sharing

 

This map includes:

- Downtown Subway Loop

- Dual Hub (downtown to University Circle to Shaker Square)

- Cleveland Heights Rapid (Cedar Fairmount, Coventry, Severance Center)

- I-90 West Rapid

- Southeast / Garfield / Maple Rapid

- Green Line extension to 271

- Waterfront Line Expansion to create a downtown loop through Playhouse Square, CSU, St Vincent's hospital, and Tri-C Metro

- Lorain - Cleveland - Solon (- Mantua) Commuter Rail

- Elyria - Cleveland - Lake County Commuter Rail

- Cleveland - Akron - Canton (both via Hudson and via Kent) Commuter Rail

- I added Ken's CVSR to downtown Cleveland proposal. 

 

As I mentioned in the other post, much thanks to @KJP - he provided the source content and original maps for pretty much every past proposal that I included in this map.

 

Points of discussion for this thread:

- Looking forward, which of these projects would make the most sense to do today, factoring in cost, politics, etc. (aka reality)?

- Now dream land - if you were a benevolent dictator (think Singapore) which one or two projects would you pick to do first and why?

As far as which project to do first, Ken has convinced me that the Lorain - Cleveland - Solon Commuter Rail is the most feasible and impactful based on current conditions.  My additional reasoning (beyond what I've seen discussed on the forum):

- Solon has a HUGE job base, including significant manufacturing.  It's not just that there are a bunch of jobs but that they are the types of jobs that would support reverse commutes on rail, specifically manufacturing jobs (lots of people use the bus through the Solon industrial area) AND headquarters jobs that a presumably trying to recruit Millennials who might prefer to live downtown (Nestle North America HQ, Swagelock HQ, etc.).  I don't think the average suburban office worker would be interested in commuter rail, but these types would be.  It's about connecting people to jobs.

- I say Solon, not Mantua, because the rail line is active to the Nestle offices and plant in Solon at Harper road, but abandoned beyond that.  I suspect it would be MUCH more expensive, and probably quite a political fight, to actually extend it through Solon, Bainbridge, Aurora, and Mantua.  (Although it is interesting to consider Geauga Lake redevelopment as Transit-Oriented.)  I don't think the rail line had been abandoned yet when the 2002 Commuter Rail study was completed.

- This line would get a lot of usage from people not currently using public transportation, thus (theoretically) increasing support for public transit in the county (and therefore making it easier to pass an operating and/or expansion levy).

- Note: I would add a stop at Penn Station (Euclid / E. 55th) for easy access to the HealthLine and thus CC and UC, which would again benefit both inward and outward travel on the line.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 20196 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Moved link to top of post

Here's my dreamer proposal for the day - let's make the lower level of a new tower on the Jacobs' Public Square property into a proper transit center for all of the Public Square buses AND a new Superior Subway.  All Public Square buses travel on a new, underground bus road, thus enabling the removal of Superior Avenue from the Square above ground.  Buses from the east on Superior take a ramp down BEFORE reaching the Square.  Buses from Euclid take a ramp at the edge of the Square where Superior is now.  From the west, eastbound buses take a ramp down after West 3rd and then turn into the lower level of the Jacobs' lot, converging with westbound buses in a Transit Center style bus interchange.  Westbound buses and Euclid avenue Eastbound buses exit this interchange via a ramp up to West 3rd, connecting to Superior.  Eastbound Superior buses travel under the square and exit on a ramp east of East 3rd.

 

Today's Superior Avenue through the Square is replaced with new green space and a playground.

 

Under all of this is the Superior subway, with a station at the transit center and then another in front of Cleveland Public Library.  It continues on to the east.

 

An underground pedestrian tunnel lined with retail goes from the transit center, around the Renaissance, and connects to the Terminal Tower RTA station.

 

This solves everything - faster, weather protected bus transfers; proper downtown subway; removes buses from Public Square; no Superior Ave on the square and therefore no Jersey barriers; much better traffic flow around the square since there would be fewer buses and no intersections w Superior - probably both sets of lights could be removed if the road is designed properly; and (best of all) a new downtown playground.  What do you think?  Can we do it for $150M (not including the full subway)?  Maybe in phases?

 

(Yes, I know that this won't happen barring some kind of miraCLE, but it's fun to dream.)

 

 

The bus ramps could be something simple like this, or maybe covered so snow removal is less of an issue.

 

 

^Sounds a bit convoluted with all the tunnels. I still feel Public Square will be redone in 5 years or so to the underground option of traffic on Superior going beneath the square. It was more of Superior being dropped down and having a couple land bridges arch over. It seemed the most elegant of the 4 options but obviously the most expensive so they did the half measure. 

5 minutes ago, audidave said:

^Sounds a bit convoluted with all the tunnels. I still feel Public Square will be redone in 5 years or so to the underground option of traffic on Superior going beneath the square. It was more of Superior being dropped down and having a couple land bridges arch over. It seemed the most elegant of the 4 options but obviously the most expensive so they did the half measure. 

 

I’ve thought about that a lot. My concern is that having intersections at East and West roadways (of the Square) at Superior makes the route around the square slow and inefficient for everyone - buses, cars, and pedestrians. So my proposal is to eliminate those intersections. 

Edited June 1, 20196 yr by Boomerang_Brian

^I would imagine there is great benefit of not forcing cars to go around the square. Driving around the square is quite hectic with all the lane changes, turn lanes, and bus traffic. I would imagine 70% or greater of the car traffic is trying to go through the square without stopping.  It would take the chaos out of the square by eliminating them from the traffic weaving that goes on now.  I believe the traffic lights are working now as it would be under this plan but there currently are no cars flowing thru Superior so that is an opportunity lost. 

On 6/1/2019 at 9:44 AM, audidave said:

^Sounds a bit convoluted with all the tunnels. I still feel Public Square will be redone in 5 years or so to the underground option of traffic on Superior going beneath the square. It was more of Superior being dropped down and having a couple land bridges arch over. It seemed the most elegant of the 4 options but obviously the most expensive so they did the half measure. 

 

There is no chance Public Square is going to be redone in 5 years. It took 7 years to plan, fund, and construct what we have there now, which is not even 3 years old.

It depends on the pain level, irritation level, inefficiency of RTA, inefficiency of moving bollards for events, to decide if the city wants to move to “phase 2” of the public square upgrade. I think construction could be done in one year if no utilities need dug up and moved.  In my mind its a fairly easy project. Digging down a slope from either direction to the square middle to about 10-12 feet deep. Put pavers down to control the speed. Then create a land-bridge that rises up 3-4 ft over top. RTA could use the entry and exits of Superior in the Square  for bus stops. 

   Maybe i’m way off base for the scaling of that. But that seems to be what i recall the design looked like. 

The plan below was pretty close to happening. Forest City bought land in the WHD for a transit center which would have provided a government-funded foundation and parking facility for FCE's high-rise residential buildings.

On 6/1/2019 at 10:33 AM, audidave said:

^I would imagine there is great benefit of not forcing cars to go around the square. Driving around the square is quite hectic with all the lane changes, turn lanes, and bus traffic. I would imagine 70% or greater of the car traffic is trying to go through the square without stopping.  It would take the chaos out of the square by eliminating them from the traffic weaving that goes on now.  I believe the traffic lights are working now as it would be under this plan but there currently are no cars flowing thru Superior so that is an opportunity lost. 

 

Originally I was thinking tunnels for all traffic, including buses. I figured removing most of the buses from the square would significantly improve the flow. That said, further reducing traffic around the square makes it better for pedestrians. I’m in for the larger tunnel in order to include cars. 

On 6/2/2019 at 7:17 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Originally I was thinking tunnels for all traffic, including buses. I figured removing most of the buses from the square would significantly improve the flow. That said, further reducing traffic around the square makes it better for pedestrians. I’m in for the larger tunnel in order to include cars. 

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one on here that longs for Public Square of the past, a center of transit and commerce.   Burying buses and cars only lends itself to the corporate powers trying to change the square into a some kind park in Westlake.  

 

 

One of my favorite videos

I would love this to be a reality again.  This kind of transit solves much of our problems; pollution, parking, population integration, job access and so much more. 

 

Traffic patterns downtown have changed. Sure, roads like Superior, Chester, East 9th and Ontario get backed up during rush hour. But I don't remember the roads through the Flats (West 10th, Carter, Columbus) getting congested like this during rush hour. And this is without a ship or barge causing the bridges to be raised (which happens a lot). Yet looks like most of this traffic is heading for the growing areas of Tremont and Ohio City. It's too bad the Waterfront Line is lightly used. Maybe it could someday be routed across the old Big Four bridge, through Scranton Peninsula (which is about to pop) and up to Ohio City and Tremont? Might be a good tax-increment-financed project. 

 

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

Traffic patterns downtown have changed. Sure, roads like Superior, Chester, East 9th and Ontario get backed up during rush hour. But I don't remember the roads through the Flats (West 10th, Carter, Columbus) getting congested like this during rush hour. And this is without a ship or barge causing the bridges to be raised (which happens a lot). Yet looks like most of this traffic is heading for the growing areas of Tremont and Ohio City. It's too bad the Waterfront Line is lightly used. Maybe it could someday be routed across the old Big Four bridge, through Scranton Peninsula (which is about to pop) and up to Ohio City and Tremont? Might be a good tax-increment-financed project. 

 

 

I like it. Would you have it still go up the hill to Tower City and then come back down to go across the BigFour bridge? It seems like it would have to have TC stop to be useful for Tremont / South Ohio City residents. 

 

And what route? The path through Scranton peninsula seems obvious, but after that it gets less clear. 

I'd run it up Columbus Road hill (7.5% grade--doable), then Wiley-Kenilworth into Tremont. Then West 10th, over I-490, then dedicated right of way to Steelyard Commons.

 

This would be combined with a station on the RTA viaduct and shifting of viaduct tracks for the Red Line Greenway, plus a Detroit-Superior streetcar that splits at Detroit-West 25th. The West 25th streetcar would at least run to downtown Old Brooklyn, if not to Parmatown with dedicated lanes and signal prioritization. This would create a network, allowing persons to travel from Cudell to Tremont by streetcar. Or Parma to Scranton Peninsula by streetcar. Or the airport to Tremont by Rapid and streetcar.

The Columbus Road Center Street Swing Bridge was damaged in an accident a couple days ago and is closed to auto traffic till it can be repaired, so that might be throwing off the traffic down there right now.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/06/wayward-lawn-tractor-knocks-clevelands-center-street-swing-bridge-out-of-commission-for-near-future.html

You mean Center Street? I just went across the Columbus Road lift bridge yesterday.

7 hours ago, KJP said:

Traffic patterns downtown have changed. Sure, roads like Superior, Chester, East 9th and Ontario get backed up during rush hour. But I don't remember the roads through the Flats (West 10th, Carter, Columbus) getting congested like this during rush hour. And this is without a ship or barge causing the bridges to be raised (which happens a lot). Yet looks like most of this traffic is heading for the growing areas of Tremont and Ohio City. It's too bad the Waterfront Line is lightly used. Maybe it could someday be routed across the old Big Four bridge, through Scranton Peninsula (which is about to pop) and up to Ohio City and Tremont? Might be a good tax-increment-financed project. 

 

The WFL is passing by in this pic which cars have to stop for, you can see the train to the right.  This isn’t regular traffic congestion.

5 hours ago, KJP said:

You mean Center Street? I just went across the Columbus Road lift bridge yesterday.

 

 

Oops, yes, Center Street.

On 4/20/2019 at 12:16 PM, E Rocc said:

 

One thing to consider is that even when downtown Detroit was seen as almost universally Dangerous, the People Mover was perceived as safe.

Says who?  Along with most of inner city Detroit the people mover was thought of as a waste and only for the poor.

On 6/15/2019 at 4:04 PM, Oxford19 said:

The WFL is passing by in this pic which cars have to stop for, you can see the train to the right.  This isn’t regular traffic congestion.

 

You do realize that I was the one who took that picture? You do realize that I also stated that West 10th, Carter, Columbus were all congested?? So it would stand to reason that, because I was actually there, I was stating my observation of the situation? So it didn't matter that this line of cars was backed up before the train got there? Or that the back-up extended north on West 10th to the Ernst & Young tower? Or that the back-up continued beyond the Waterfront Line crossing, all the up Columbus Road, over its lift bridge and up the hill into Duck Island? 

 

Rather than just make a assumption that my observation was incorrect, why don't you read what I wrote and if you don't understand my observation, why don't you ask me a question about it rather make a simplistic assumption about it?

 

And, thank you X for thoughtfully noting what was more likely to be the cause of the worsened traffic in the Flats.

Edited June 17, 20195 yr by KJP

59 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

You do realize that I was the one who took that picture? You do realize that I also stated that West 10th, Carter, Columbus were all congested?? So it would stand to reason that, because I was actually there, I was stating my observation of the situation? So it didn't matter that this line of cars was backed up before the train got there? Or that the back-up extended north on West 10th to the Ernst & Young tower? Or that the back-up continued beyond the Waterfront Line crossing, all the up Columbus Road, over its lift bridge and up the hill into Duck Island? 

 

Rather than just make a assumption that my observation was incorrect, why don't you read what I wrote and if you don't understand my observation, why don't you ask me a question about it rather make a simplistic assumption about it?

 

And, thank you X for thoughtfully noting what was more likely to be the cause of the worsened traffic in the Flats.

Take it easy...traffic has always increased in the Flats during rush hour generally.  If it's worse, that's a good thing.  

 

 

Maybe don't use a pic describing how bad traffic congestion is with a passing train as cars wait for said train to pass...lots of variables in the Flats that can add to traffic back-ups...that's all.

Edited June 17, 20195 yr by Oxford19

On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:02 AM, KJP said:

I'd run it up Columbus Road hill (7.5% grade--doable), then Wiley-Kenilworth into Tremont. Then West 10th, over I-490, then dedicated right of way to Steelyard Commons.

 

This would be combined with a station on the RTA viaduct and shifting of viaduct tracks for the Red Line Greenway, plus a Detroit-Superior streetcar that splits at Detroit-West 25th. The West 25th streetcar would at least run to downtown Old Brooklyn, if not to Parmatown with dedicated lanes and signal prioritization. This would create a network, allowing persons to travel from Cudell to Tremont by streetcar. Or Parma to Scranton Peninsula by streetcar. Or the airport to Tremont by Rapid and streetcar.

You just outlined one of my three "SimCity" transit dreams for Cleveland.  In my head I have it either utilizing the Big Four Bridge or a new branch off the RTA viaduct, through Scranton peninsula, under the Innerbelt Bridge, down W. 10th, over I-490, and then to Steelyard (and eventually points beyond).  Since this is my SimCity version it would be a tunnel under W. 10th.?

 

The other two are the completion of the Waterfront Line into a downtown loop and extending the Rapid through the West Side using the NS tracks through Lakewood, Rocky River, Westlake and Bay and ending around Crocker. 

I'd start with more frequent bus service circulating between downtown and the into the neighborhoods of Ohio City and Tremont -- as in every 5-10 minutes during rush hours and every 15-20 minutes off-peak.

5 hours ago, Kagedawg said:

You just outlined one of my three "SimCity" transit dreams for Cleveland.  In my head I have it either utilizing the Big Four Bridge or a new branch off the RTA viaduct, through Scranton peninsula, under the Innerbelt Bridge, down W. 10th, over I-490, and then to Steelyard (and eventually points beyond).  Since this is my SimCity version it would be a tunnel under W. 10th.?

 

The other two are the completion of the Waterfront Line into a downtown loop and extending the Rapid through the West Side using the NS tracks through Lakewood, Rocky River, Westlake and Bay and ending around Crocker. 

If only the intent of forming RTA 45 years ago came to reality...then our future plans wouldn't be past plans.

RANT ON

 

Except when RTA was formed in 1975, the county had just surpassed 1.8 million in population with population forecast to reach 3 million by 2000 and sales taxes rising along with the population. There would never again be a need to worry about how regional transit would be funded. Little did we know that the seeds for undoing that fix had already been planted and were growing, like weeds out of control.

 

No one at that time could have foreseen the decline in manufacturing that had been Cleveland's bread-n-butter for 100+ years. Sure, the city's population had fallen, but it was still the nation's 10th-largest city and the metro area was still within the top-10. So the vote in 1975 to create a regional transit agency and fund it with a countywide sales tax and supported with federal funds from the still-new Urban Mass Transit Administration was seen as the act that finally fixed a declining transit system. The progress during first years of RTA seemed to verify that, as annual ridership jumped back above 100 million. Ancient buses were replaced. Bus lines were extended. Rail lines were rebuilt. New trains were ordered. Extensions were planned.

 

But the 1970s turned out to be a tough one for Cleveland's economy. Factories and businesses closed or left for the sunbelt. Cleveland's population went into free-fall. The county's population fell for the first time ever. The decline worsened into the early 1980s as more factories closed down. I remember this era well. It seems there was bad news every night on the TV. Many of my friend's families moved to other cities and I never saw them again.

 

RTA's ridership plummeted and, just as bad, sales tax revenues plummeted. RTA began a 40-year history of raising fares and cutting service. The 35-cent fare nearly tripled to $1 between 1980-1991. Most core bus routes had rush-hour frequency of every 5-10 minutes or better with off-peak service of 10-20 minutes or better. 56,000 people rode the Euclid-Chester buses each weekday. 35,000 people rode the Red Line each weekday. 25,000 people rode the Blue-Green Lines each weekday. But neighborhoods and factories next to bus and rail lines disappeared and new jobs have flourished beyond the reach of the malnourished transit system. Euclid Avenue buses now carry fewer than 13,000 people each weekday. The Blue-Green Lines are hosting a scant 7,000 weekday riders. The Red Line has lost the least, but is still limping along with just under 20,000 weekday riders.

 

Today, Cuyahoga County has just 1.2 million residents and is still falling. If the county still had 1.8 million residents (or more, had the county kept growing!), RTA would be enjoying $60+ million more in annual sales tax revenues than the $200 million that RTA gets per year now, representing roughly 80 percent of RTA's operating budget. With that $60 million per year, RTA could reduce fares (thus boosting ridership), expand bus routes (to reach distant jobs), replace its railcars with a 5-year bond issue rather than a 20- or 30-year bond issue, extend the Red Line to Euclid to promote new housing and industrial redevelopment, extend the Blue Line to I-271 or I-480 to reach growing job nodes, start a regional rail service linking Westlake to Solon to support economic and residential growth without more highway traffic, and so on and so on.

 

So if we want to see some of RTA's past plans realized, repopulate Cuyahoga County. Tell the state to stop subsidizing sprawl and instead invest in Ohio's existing communities (not going to happen easily because Ohio's majority GOP's base doesn't live in Ohio's largest cities) or at least find a way to trick them into supporting cities again. That's why I keep harping that the best way to get people to ride transit again isn't to extend the transit to where the jobs are. But to entice the jobs to  where the transit is. The money exists for subsidizing new/relocated jobs -- it just keeps getting spent where transit doesn't exist (or barely exists). The housing will follow the jobs, although we need to make sure that affordable housing is always part of the policy/development picture. The money doesn't yet exist for transit expansion -- unless we repopulate Cuyahoga County again, get more state funding for transit (this state budget was a big victory) and find new local resources for supporting transit expansion.

 

It's not impossible. But it's not going to be easy either. Certainly not as easy as we thought in 1975, when we believed we had finally created the funding mechanism to fix regional transit once and for all. Now we face new challenges but with new opportunities. It's going to take all of us deciding what kind of city and metro area we want Cleveland to be, and design/fund/manage it accordingly. That includes, if not starts with, our regional transit system.

 

RANT OFF

Edited June 18, 20195 yr by KJP

I recently saw an article about a transit system in Asia, maybe Hong Kong or Malaysia, where the transit authority also owned/managed/developed real estate along the right of way and that was how they kept fares really low. 

 

Why couldn't we do that here?  Let RTA buy properties within 1/4 mile or so of a major route or transit center for $1, sell or sell development rights and use the proceeds to help fund the system.  What about a pilot program between Tower City and Shaker -- give RTA first dibs on any land bank properties within a certain distance from a rail station.

14 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I recently saw an article about a transit system in Asia, maybe Hong Kong or Malaysia, where the transit authority also owned/managed/developed real estate along the right of way and that was how they kept fares really low. 

 

Why couldn't we do that here?  Let RTA buy properties within 1/4 mile or so of a major route or transit center for $1, sell or sell development rights and use the proceeds to help fund the system.  What about a pilot program between Tower City and Shaker -- give RTA first dibs on any land bank properties within a certain distance from a rail station.

I think it is Hong Kong.  The transit system runs a profit due to their real estate holdings. 

 

 

What is the Big Four Bridge? Google tells me it's in Louisville. 

49 minutes ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

What is the Big Four Bridge? Google tells me it's in Louisville. 

 

It's next to the Carter Road lift bridge, near the Stokes federal courthouse tower and the old B&O station.

15 hours ago, Terdolph said:

I keep coming back to the same solution.  Bring low skilled manufacturing back to the city even if it means giving away land and/or buildings.

 

It isn't glamorous but it is the only way we are going to employ thousands of minority males with functional fourth grade educations and various criminal convictions.

 

Once employed, they pay taxes and buy things just like everyone else-ride the bus too!

 

I rode the train in Italy with a man who rode the train daily, for $4 a day. His commute was from Arezzo to Florence (about an hour) each way in order to work in a factory making springs for mattresses. 

On 6/15/2019 at 11:02 AM, KJP said:

I'd run it up Columbus Road hill (7.5% grade--doable), then Wiley-Kenilworth into Tremont. Then West 10th, over I-490, then dedicated right of way to Steelyard Commons.

 

This would be combined with a station on the RTA viaduct and shifting of viaduct tracks for the Red Line Greenway, plus a Detroit-Superior streetcar that splits at Detroit-West 25th. The West 25th streetcar would at least run to downtown Old Brooklyn, if not to Parmatown with dedicated lanes and signal prioritization. This would create a network, allowing persons to travel from Cudell to Tremont by streetcar. Or Parma to Scranton Peninsula by streetcar. Or the airport to Tremont by Rapid and streetcar.

Late to this, but I ride my bike from OB into downtown for work, and for a while there, you could see the old streetcar tracks on Broadview right before W25/Pearl, looks like by 1953 this particular route was converted to a bus route (see https://www.chicagorailfan.com/clehist.html). This plan would be fantastic.

3 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Late to this, but I ride my bike from OB into downtown for work, and for a while there, you could see the old streetcar tracks on Broadview right before W25/Pearl, looks like by 1953 this particular route was converted to a bus route (see https://www.chicagorailfan.com/clehist.html). This plan would be fantastic.

 

The #21 streetcar on Clark and the #16B streetcar on West 25th-State both ended on Aug. 15, 1953. The #16A on West 25th-Pearl ended on Aug. 1, 1947 and the #16C on West 25th-Broadview ended on July 2, 1950.

 

Since the city refused to subsidize the city-owned Cleveland Transit System, it cannibalized itself in order to make ends meet, including selling off the copper wires and other components of the overhead electrical supply systems for the streetcars and then the trolley buses. After the electric trolley buses were gone, the city sold off maintenance facilities and properties, and resorted to deferred maintenance and fare increases to balance the budget. But a snake can only go so far when it has to keep eating its tail to survive. And that's why the sales tax for a county-wide transit system was sought for years until voters finally got a chance to pass it in 1974.

On 6/16/2019 at 3:55 PM, MyTwoSense said:

Says who?  Along with most of inner city Detroit the people mover was thought of as a waste and only for the poor.

 

Not the impression I got at all, albeit in the early 90s.  Convention attendees were advised that it was safe.