Cleveland:

currently - 10,000   

next census - 21,000

 

Columbus:

currently - 3,800     

next census - 6,000

 

Cincinnati:

currently - 3,200     

next census - ?????

 

I couldnt find a projection for Cinci...  Im wondering if its because it isnt noteworthy or what??

 

Anyway its kind of interesting that the reasons people are moving back downtown is to be near everything and its mostly empty nesters who dont want a big house anymore or "creative class" types who want to be in the cultural center. 

 

What i've noticed with Cleveland is that Downtown and a few other neighborhoods are flourishing while the other 40 districts are losing population.  The metro area is gaining, but theres that "general city" area thats still losing population.  Its like a city within a city within a city.  This shockwave of poverty moves further out while its aftermath rebuilds itself back to its former glory.  So strange

 

(btw if you think 21,000 is a lot, Chicago is expected to have 150,000)

At the rate office buildings and old department stores are being converted to condos and apartments, downtown Cincinnati's population must increase. By how much, I couldn't say. I think the City West townhouses project would also count in downtown's population.

 

Many new apartments are being added to Columbus as well as conversions.

No City West is in the neighborhood of the West End. It will not help the West End population out either because they replaced projects which was home to probably thousands. Where did these thousands go? Price Hill?

 

I saw a site that listes downtown Cincinnati at 5,447 people downtown.

The thing with those numbers is there are different constitutes of what "downtown" is in each city. Columbus uses everything from the Scioto River to I-70/71 to the south, to 71 to the east, to 670 to the north. That is a rather large area and would be split up if it were in another city. Cincinnati's CBD (downtown) is only 0.8 sq mi, but the areas immediately surrounding downtown (Over The Rhine, West End, Mt. Adams) are seperate neighborhoods (in Columbus, OTR and West End would be counted downtown, thus giving another, what 13,000 or more to "downtown" Cincinnati).

 

So it's really deceiving, seeing how downtown Cincinnati is stricly business (literally) and the residential areas are on the fringe (ala Garfield Place, Lytle Place, OTR, etc).

 

Cleveland, I have no clue what they used for the boundaries. I presume Warehouse District, Gateway District, LaLaLand District, blah blah.

I was suprised by that downtown Columbus population number, too.

 

Even the area you mention, the area demarcated by the interestates and the Scioto, doesn't seem to have too much housing, from what I recall.

Yes, but the areas east of downtown (Jackson Square, etc) have sizable populations, which are included in downtown's numbers.

Yea Columbus is strange, its so sprawled out in a very uncity sort of way. It makes its downtown look rather suburban for a city the size of San Francisco.

 

I should have posted density numbers instead... if anyone knows them off the top of their heads?? ;o)

 

Yea 0.8 is extremely small. I know Cleveland's is about 4, the size of Philly's downtown is about the same as Cleveland's except they have about 70,000 living downtown. So it says something about what Cleveland's potential is. Afterall every district in Cleveland used to have 40,000+ during the depression.

0.8 is extremely small, correct, but remember, that's all just for business. There are only VERY few "open lots" left to develop a building on. They only abandoned building downtown is the old McAlpins Dept. Store and that's slated for condos. So while yeah, downtown Cincinnati isn't very large, the neighborhood around it are along with having a compact, walkable city center.

 

Compared to Columbus, which is a very VERY large downtown area yet very few walkable areas.

I always called OTR Downtown. I think 5 k lives in OTR. And just think over 100,000 used to live there.

No City West is in the neighborhood of the West End. It will not help the West End population out either because they replaced projects which was home to probably thousands.

 

Yep. CityWest added fewer units than it took away, likely resulting in a net loss of population.

I always called OTR Downtown. I think 5 k lives in OTR. And just think over 100' date='000 used to live there.[/quote']

 

Nah, the highest was somewhere between 40,000-45,000 back at the turn of the (20th) century.

/// but the areas east of downtown (Jackson Square, etc) have sizable populations, which are included in downtown's numbers.

 

Wheres' Jackson Square at?

 

When I was in Cols last year for Commfest I stayed at the Hyatt on Capital Square, and decided to explore the adjacent neighborhood.

 

I walked east of the Capital, up to the library, and then back. That neighborhood looks like it was an interesting residential area at one time...still a few surviving houses and apartments, almost all converted to office. Also a lot of parking lots. I think theres a real infill opportunity there. The street pattern is pretty odd there, too..sort of like secondary streets or alleys in the middle of the blocks.

I always called OTR Downtown. I think 5 k lives in OTR. And just think over 100' date='000 used to live there.[/quote']

 

Nah, the highest was somewhere between 40,000-45,000 back at the turn of the (20th) century.

 

Actually, the neighborhood had a peak population of about 100,000 "way back when," which is fascinating.

/// but the areas east of downtown (Jackson Square' date=' etc) have sizable populations, which are included in downtown's numbers.[/quote']

 

Wheres' Jackson Square at?

 

When I was in Cols last year for Commfest I stayed at the Hyatt on Capital Square, and decided to explore the adjacent neighborhood.

 

I walked east of the Capital, up to the library, and then back. That neighborhood looks like it was an interesting residential area at one time...still a few surviving houses and apartments, almost all converted to office. Also a lot of parking lots. I think theres a real infill opportunity there. The street pattern is pretty odd there, too..sort of like secondary streets or alleys in the middle of the blocks.

 

Jackson Square is north of Broad Street, near the art museum. The area you were in was the western extension of the Olde Town East neighborhood.

Nah' date=' the highest was somewhere between 40,000-45,000 back at the turn of the (20th) century.[/quote']

 

Actually, the neighborhood had a peak population of about 100,000 "way back when," which is fascinating.

 

Bah...I'm just going by the iRhine and Findlay Market web sites, and the Bicentennial Guide to Greater Cincinnati, which all state that it reached a high of 44,475 in the 1900 census. :D

does anyone have access to a GIS system with census data? Then, we could just draw 1, 5, and 10 mile radii around each downtown and get some real numbers to compare apples to apples.

Jackson Square is north of Broad Street, near the art museum. The area you were in was the western extension of the Olde Town East neighborhood.

 

Thanks..Im going to have to look for Jackson Square next time im in Cols.

 

Doing some websearches on downtown, and it seems the area I was on the fringes of was not Old Towne East but something called the

Discovery District

 

 

Also, check out this presentation on a downtown Columbus developement plan. Some really interesting stuff here (lots of graphics), including a discussion of residential issues, and a comparison with Cincy & Clevo.

A Buisness Plan for Downtown

Nah' date=' the highest was somewhere between 40,000-45,000 back at the turn of the (20th) century.[/quote']

 

Actually, the neighborhood had a peak population of about 100,000 "way back when," which is fascinating.

 

Bah...I'm just going by the iRhine and Findlay Market web sites, and the Bicentennial Guide to Greater Cincinnati, which all state that it reached a high of 44,475 in the 1900 census. :D

 

I'll be damned. I got OTR confused with the WHOLE CITY.

hey guys i am wondering where you found the exact numbers for the populations of the downtowns? I remember somewhere Columbus posting the number of units in each city on their website but that’s all i knew of. Whatever Cincinnati’s projection is, it’s most likely underestimated. The city has seen a greater development lately. I do know for a fact that if this is saying that these are the populations the cities will have by 2010 Columbus' projection is also underestimated. Since just 2002 the downtown area of Columbus has seen a little over 600 new units of housing open. This is not counting the other nearly 800 that is under construction right now. Even if only one person lives in each unit downtown Columbus has already seen the addition of at least 600 something new people since 2002. When this projection was calculated the city had not yet started their plan to tax subsidize residential developments. That's just my two cents though. I found the website here with all information didn’t see it posted yet

www.downtowncolumbus.com

All I know is that you pretty much have to map the cities on the census web site and go from there. For example, the "downtown" of Cincinnati is composed of census tracts 6, 7, and part of 4.

 

But I don't have the time for that kind of stuff. I normally just go by the (conflicting) reports that are in the media and on web sites. The problem is that everyone seems to have a different definition for "downtown". I go by the city's definition--Central Ave. to the west, Central Pkwy to the north, Eggleston/I-71 to the east and the river to the south.

I'm still astonished on an ongoing basis by the change in the built environment in downtown Cleveland (because of the residential construction/conversions). It seems like projects take forever but to look back at how things used to be - wow.

 

I remember visiting in 1988 with a church group where we dished out soup to homeless people. That building is now upscale condos (a 900 sq. ft. 1 bedroom unit is currently listed at $160K http://pure.progressiveurban.com/propview.php?view=627 ). In the early to mid-1990s, my nightclubbing friends and I would briskly walk past several gutted and dilapidated buildings - those have been totally redone and West 9th Street is as lively as its ever been.

 

The one thing I have noticed is that some of the projects have stalled, while others are going like hotcakes. The Rockwell condos are in need of more financing, but the Stonebridge tower is going up rather quickly.

Well isnt the rockwell selling its condos as the most expensive ones downtown? like somewhere in the 500k-1million range?? i think that could be the issue...

cleveland is undoubtly the leader in the big three cities when it comes to creating downtown living. Cinci and cbus have both followed its lead. It is nice to look at what cleveland has done and only imagine what the other two cities will look like in ten years.

"Well isnt the rockwell selling its condos as the most expensive ones downtown? like somewhere in the 500k-1million range?? i think that could be the issue..."

 

Not at all - although they were planning to offer a select few units as "luxury penthouses" which would most likely sell for the upper-6 figures. The starting range was in the upper 200s with most units going betweeen 300K and 500K.

 

Of course, the view of Key Tower from there would be nothing short of phenomenal.

It will not help the West End population out either because they replaced projects which was home to probably thousands. Where did these thousands go? Price Hill?

 

Springfield Township (the Ashley Woods subdivision in particular), Mt. Airy, & Westwood, mostly.

^ Add Lexington Hts. and Seven Hills (Springfield Twp.) and parts of Skyline Acres (Colerain/Sprfld).

 

Price Hill (yes), Westwood (yes), Mt. Airy (most definitely yes). Areas along River Road have been taken up by thugs (no one redeemable) too. Northside...parts of Avondale and Walnut Hills...umm, let's just name it all. Look at crime statistics and where they increased and this should give you an idea, Monte.

 

Like I've said, there were riots between the Lexington Hts. and Seven Hills folks and I watched a guy being beaten by a 2 x 4 yesterday two driveways down from me, so the shit will just keep moving farther and farther out.

 

Where do you stay, ridah? You probably said, but it's been a while.

I live in Ashley Woods, but I'm moving back in the city. Probably to Madisonville or Avondale.

 

Lexington Hts. isn't really Laurel Homes people. Lexington Hts. is mostly people from Huntington Meadows who were placed there when it got shut down. I'm not going to make any claims about Skyline Acres, because I don't spend much time there.

 

While I understand what you're trying to say, I don't like the constant assertion that public housing residents = crime. Forest Park bucks that notion completely.

 

I've lived in Ashley for a few years, and I know the Seven Hills/Lexington fights have being going on since my dad was a kid.

 

I think that the region as a whole doesn't have a problem with the outer ring suburbs and outlying areas going downhill. As everybody knows, out of sight, out of mind. The main reason that people talk about Over-The-Rhine is because it's right in the heart of the city, and you can't ignore the issues there. Move the issues (poverty, drugs, way too dense of a population) out of the city center and you don't have to talk about them.

Lexington Hts. isn't really Laurel Homes people. Lexington Hts. is mostly people from Huntington Meadows who were placed there when it got shut down. I'm not going to make any claims about Skyline Acres' date=' because I don't spend much time there.[/quote']

Lexington Hts.--who can say where the people who live there came from? I know that it's heavily subsidized housing there. I was always interested in the neighborhood since my mother worked at Ben Franklin many years ago. Her boss closed the store because of crime (no, public housing residents do not necessarily equal crime but look at the local crime statistics and the socioeconomic realities). Not only Ben Franklin closed, but the K-mart then shut down and look at "Waycross Plaza". And the abandoned gas station and the restaurants that always fail after two months. Damn...the area is at a highway interchange. Is this the last highway interchange around I-275 that might possibly develop?

 

BTW...Skyline Acres was developed with a community center and basketball courts. What does that say about the people who built it?

 

While I understand what you're trying to say' date=' I don't like the constant assertion that public housing residents = crime. Forest Park bucks that notion completely. I've lived in Ashley for a few years, and I know the Seven Hills/Lexington fights have being going on since my dad was a kid.

[/quote']

I don't mean to say that everyone who lived in public housing is a criminal. But you can't possibly believe that the fact that Laurel Homes, Lincoln Court, Huntington Meadows and the slow decline of English Woods has something to do with crime in the suburbs. My parents both work in real estate--my dad doing mortgage work and the company they both work for doing lease-option, mostly Section 8. It's amazing how much they try to help folks into owning a home, and they generally try to steer them into mixed-income areas (mostly west side). It's also amazing how many people don't show up for showings and don't even call. If you want to have the opportunity to own a home, show up.

 

Also, I don't think that "constant assertion" is exactly correct.

 

I think that the region as a whole doesn't have a problem with the outer ring suburbs and outlying areas going downhill. As everybody knows' date=' out of sight, out of mind. The main reason that people talk about Over-The-Rhine is because it's right in the heart of the city, and you can't ignore the issues there. Move the issues (poverty, drugs, way too dense of a population) out of the city center and you don't have to talk about them.[/quote']

No, I mentioned the "inner ring" suburbs. Not the outer ring. And Over-the-Rhine doesn't have anything to do with anything I was saying. No one likes crime (including someone being beaten with a 2 x 4) in their neighborhoods.

Sean mentioned this website before, but I'll post it again since it just went through an overhaul, and more information has been added:

 

http://www.downtowncolumbus.com

Just to update this, downtown Cincy is at about 6,200 and is projected to be at 10,000-11,000 by 2010.

 

(Source: Downtown Cincinnati Inc.)

Where did the numbers at the top of this thread come from?  21,000 in Cleveland would be awesome, but I'd be real surprised if it got that high by 2010.  That's only 5 years away!

Reading through this, I noticed the suggestion of using the census data for populations at a given radius.  I can probably do that tomorrow or later this week, if we don't mind numbers that are 5 years old at this point.  (I actually sort of did it for Cincinnati once, but at something like a 100 mile radius, which includes just a bit more than downtown.:wink:)

I live in Mt auburn (cincy) and one of my neighbors asked me "How do you like living downtown"? A couple of months ago there was an accident on reading road in mt auburn near the greaters and channel 9 news said the accident was downtown....Downtown is the CBD central business district.  This is very confusing and the media outlets like to lump the problems in surrounding communities. No wonder people have a negative view of downtown they don't know the boundaries.

In the next census, Toledo is going to be in the Big 3.

 

Muhahahahahaha.

 

Learn to love it.  :)

In the next census, Toledo is going to be in the Big 3.

 

Muhahahahahaha.

 

Learn to love it. :)

 

Sucks to be Cincinnati in that case.

Hardly...  But I would say it sucks to be you stuck in Baton Rouge.

^ i been to BR, it aint pretty i must say, well as far as urbanity goes

Hardly... But I would say it sucks to be you stuck in Baton Rouge.

 

Not this week (outside of my schoolwork I've procrastenated on).

This weekhttp://www.louisianasmusic.com/brbw05/

Past weekend http://www.festivalinternational.com

Past weekend and next weekend www.nojazzfest.com

 

So....

Besides falling snow and the ongoing Youngstown mayoral debate, whacha' got going on up in Ohio right now?!  :-P

I live in Mt auburn (cincy) and one of my neighbors asked me "How do you like living downtown"? A couple of months ago there was an accident on reading road in mt auburn near the greaters and channel 9 news said the accident was downtown....Downtown is the CBD central business district.  This is very confusing and the media outlets like to lump the problems in surrounding communities. No wonder people have a negative view of downtown they don't know the boundaries.

 

Well, we all know the news is a jacked up hype-mobile and anyone who takes what they say for fact is probably pretty naive.  There's tons of propaganda and political motivation behind all of our mass media...as we all know!

 

Anyways, it's true, city/suburb definitions are blurred in the public eye, as are downtown/uptown/out-of-town.  I wouldn't include anything outside of the basin in Cincinnati as "Downtown."  Avondale, Corryville, Clifton...those are all "Uptown."  The West End?  only up to the freeway.  And that might be pushing it. 

 

And Cleveland?  I'd draw the lines at West 9th, the lake, Carnegie, and East 17th.  The Flats aren't Downtown to me and neither is the growing Midtown residential population.  In any case, it'll be tough to go just by street boundaries or by census blocks, as some buildings (like Otis Terminal) start in one "district" and end up in another. 

 

As for Columbus, I don't know it well enough to say. 

 

Let's all draw some maps and have some fun with it!

Here's what the City of Cleveland defines as "Downtown" (you may need to zoom out):

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/gis/cpc/basemap.jsp

 

Here's a visual of MY interpretation of it now and what it could expand to with future development and proposed realignment of freeways, bridges, etc.

 

Hardly... But I would say it sucks to be you stuck in Baton Rouge.

 

Not this week (outside of my schoolwork I've procrastenated on).

This weekhttp://www.louisianasmusic.com/brbw05/

Past weekend http://www.festivalinternational.com

Past weekend and next weekend www.nojazzfest.com

 

So....

Besides falling snow and the ongoing Youngstown mayoral debate, whacha' got going on up in Ohio right now?! :-P

 

Are you serious?  How about over all quality of life.  Just because you have a weekend of music fests doesn't make Louisiana special.  You have New Orleans and the rest of the state is a pit. 

the rest of the state is a pit.

 

A barbeque pit!  Mmm...

Nice map MGD!  So, anyone have the goods necessary to figure out the population of that area?  Keep in mind, it may increase by 2 come August.  ;)

Nice map MGD, but I would consider the Browns stadium, Rock Hall and Great Lakes Science Center Downtown.

Hardly... But I would say it sucks to be you stuck in Baton Rouge.

 

Not this week (outside of my schoolwork I've procrastenated on).

This weekhttp://www.louisianasmusic.com/brbw05/

Past weekend http://www.festivalinternational.com

Past weekend and next weekend www.nojazzfest.com

 

So....

Besides falling snow and the ongoing Youngstown mayoral debate, whacha' got going on up in Ohio right now?! :-P

 

Are you serious? How about over all quality of life. Just because you have a weekend of music fests doesn't make Louisiana special. You have New Orleans and the rest of the state is a pit.

 

But it's not Cincinnati. :-P

(You forget, I'm a native Clevelander)

Nice map MGD! So, anyone have the goods necessary to figure out the population of that area? Keep in mind, it may increase by 2 come August. ;)

While the population is perhaps higher now, from the 2000 census I came up with a total of 4,623 within the blue area on the map.  I didn't do the surrounding orange area because the census site and/or my internet connection was painfully slow.  If I find some time with GIS software, it'll be much easier.

so is the warehouse district an official part of downtown cleveland, but not the federal courthouse?

so here is my attempt at a crappy map of downtown columbus, trying to copy the cleveland map style

 

where it is slightly yellow is what the official boundaries have been used (the expressway loops and train tracks on the west)...the green is what i would refer to as the core downtown, what i feel the true definition should be, and the red is the arena district area.

 

i stopped the green to the south about where german village and the brewery district used to end, before i-70 chopped off the top..now everyone clumps it in with the cbd, all because it is inside the innerbelt.

to the east i stopped it somewhere near where downtown probably should be stopped, but 71 does the same thing there.

same for the northern part too, and the west should end at the river.

 

at least that's what i call the true CBD, y'all highways won't dictate me! :lol:

 

(oh, by the way...the green area should look like a square for the most part, based on the grid of what the columbus downtown used to be(if i remembered right))

Yeah, much like Summit Street just did, my map was MY version of what Downtown is.  The City of Cleveland's "Downtown" stretches all the way to the inner belt on the east end and it even covers Whiskey Island to the northwest.  If a certain building doesn't fall in or out of my boundaries, it doesn't really matter.  It's just a concept.  Plus, I tried to think of it in terms of what's walkable/contiguous now (blue) and what could be with future development (orange).

The Eastern part of Columbus's CBD is extremely ghetto.  That could be a good location to fix up in the future, although I have a feeling that most people want to be closer to the river where the action is.

 

Also it's a damn shame COSI eats up so much prime real estate.  I think the opposite side of the river has some major real estate potential.