^^I was actually just in Cincinnati and I was disappointed with its downtown. Very dead. I think I could've looted the whopping 3 retail stores that I saw while walking around on a Thursday night and no one would've caught me. I've only been to Toledo's twice, but I would definitely say it's more vibrant than Cincy's, sorry.

Where were you walking around in Downtown Cincy? If you are in some areas, it can be dead, but in the main areas, it is very lively.

^ Yeah, it's hard to know a mid-sized city by just visiting, without someone to show you the ropes.  For example if you were anywhere near Fountain square on most any summer Thursday evening (the center of downtown), you'd have run into a big crowd for salsa night.  That said, last week in particular seemed strangely calm down here.  Maybe it was the post-holiday weekend drying out.

NO downtown in Ohio is "vibrant" on a Thursday night and I've been to them all.  Sections, sure (Arena District; Fountain Square; East 4th Alley) but overall, no.

Yeah, ColDay is right.  It really depends on the when and where.  I am in C-bus on business plenty of times, and it is not very lively around the capitol.  But head up the street a bit, and it changes.

I'd expect the nighttime "vibrancy" of a downtown to be in line with its resident population, and as such there's nothing wrong with the activity being concentrated in certain spots, just like in any other neighborhood. And by most of these measures no Ohio city has a very large downtown population, so they're doing as well as they can. I'm sure there is some critical mass of downtown residents, nearby residents, and transit service where afterhours downtown becomes more than just its own neighborhood, but I'm guessing no Ohio city has (re)approached that point yet.

 

The daytime is a different story, because that's when the downtown population swells with outsiders. A quiet downtown during the day is more upsetting than a mostly quiet downtown in the evening.

And even more knuckleheads that are incarcerated for something (less than a felony) which they would have recieved a slap on the wrist for if they had shown up to their court date.

 

I do find it hard to believe that the WHD, as it stands now, only has 900 residents on top of the jails.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems awfully low.

 

Thats what I'm saying.  This information has to be VERY outdated.

 

 

Apparently the study admitted defeat and simply asked local leaders to identify and tabulate population data from whatever they decided was their CBD. ColDayMan's estimate of the CBD population earlier in the thread seems to be fair to at least Cincinnati and Cleveland, if not Columbus.

 

 

 

Then what has Cleveland decided our "CBD" boundaries are?

 

 

Then what has Cleveland decided our "CBD" boundaries are?

 

 

It's hard to tell without the detailed data set. However, since the difference between ColDay's population estimate and the Brookings estimate is 1166, it looks as if they might have included the west bank of the Flats (census tract 1033, population 1187) or maybe some other outlying tracts to make up the difference. Overall, it's comparable. But of course we won't have detailed population estimates until the 2010 census comes out. The only thing I've been able to get the census website to give me is a population estimate of the whole city.

And even more knuckleheads that are incarcerated for something (less than a felony) which they would have recieved a slap on the wrist for if they had shown up to their court date.

 

I do find it hard to believe that the WHD, as it stands now, only has 900 residents on top of the jails. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems awfully low.

 

Thats what I'm saying. This information has to be VERY outdated.

 

 

of course it is.  it is decade ago.  do you know how much has been done in the warehouse district since 2000? W. 9th street looked like a bombed out alley in kabul, afghanistan in 2000.  There have been at least 8 new/restoration apartment / condo projects in the WHD since 2000. Over 1100 residential units have been added, which is at least over 1,600 people... which means much like the gateway district, the non prison population has nearly trippled in the last 10 years.

Will 668 be included in the census

Will 668 be included in the census

 

It should be why wouldn't it?  This is a census year.  If people from 668 or any other building downtown have not sent in their census info, Census workers should stop by the building.  If not residents should be calling the Census hotline to request that a Census Supervisor assign a worker.

what was the cutoff date though? "How many people live in this residence as of ______?" wasn't it like april 10?  668 was not yet open.

what was the cutoff date though? "How many people live in this residence as of ______?" wasn't it like april 10?  668 was not yet open.

 

But it's a residence now.  That needs to be counted.  The only way to know for sure is to call the Census Supervisor.

It's a snapshot on the day. If nobody lived there because it wasn't open, it wasn't counted.

I may be wrong, but wasn't the Prospect side tenanted and occupied in April, while the Euclid side (the much larger side) was not?

 

I think with the amount of residential rehab going on, all 3 C's are going to be a little undercounted for the 2010 Census. But I don't think that's such a bad thing ... In the Cleve, for instance, with the CSU dormitories and 668 online (and maybe a few others?) online by 2011 when this data gets released, I think it will be nice to see strong population growth since 2000 and be able to say, "And the best part is that we now have at least 1,000 more residents than when that data was collected".

 

One thing I wanted to mention for Cleveland is to not forget about all the quieter development that's happening on the east end. Not just the Avenue District stuff, but we also have the relatively large efficiency apartment building at about Euclid and E. 30th, we have a full Walker & Weeks, we have Tower Press, etc., etc. I think it will be interesting to see whether the residential population living in industrial buildings gets counted accurately. A lot of these buildings do not all meet state housing codes, but people (particularly artists) are living there quietly anyway. I wonder if Census workers check these buildings and how reluctant residents might be to expose that they actually live there. I would guess that's there's at least a couple hundred residents in the warehouses along Superior from E. 21st to E. 30th.

April 1, 2010 is the census day.  Anyone living in the building on that day should be counted.  If 1,000 people moved in April 2, it'll be 2020 before the 668 residents are counted.

Well how many people do you think live in the building now?

a little north of 400.

I would have guessed just under 400 (with approximately 232 out of 236 units occupied), so I'm not sure if that's north or south. :)

 

I don't think any of them will be counted in the 2010 census.

they are now completely full.

Downtown Columbus is huge in terms of surface area. It wouldn't be fair to compare it to other downtowns that are smaller but more "Vibrant". "Vibrant" Downtown Columbus (outside of Gay St. or Front st.) is more like S. High (Brewery District/Germany Village) or Arena District. Many cities are bombed out and depleted or just boring, right outside of their 'vibrant downtown' so I'm not complaining about Columbus at all. I think it's just the nature of a government-oriented business district. Personally I'm fascinated by presence of lobbying firms, non-profits, labor unions, various gov't agencies but lets be honest, it's pretty unglamorous to most people. Not to mention, a lot of the buildings do business during limited hours and some only seem to be used seldomly but it's a necessary evil.

Not to mention, a lot of the buildings do business during limited hours and some only seem to be used seldomly but it's a necessary evil.

 

Even San Francisco's financial district and "downtown" Manhattan have this problem. The workers' use of district resources is unbalanced (biased toward before-work, after-work and lunch), so establishments that serve this population have to be disproportionately scaled. Then it becomes unprofitable for those places to be open at any time other than the peak hours.

 

In our cities, we have a lot more room to play with true mixed-use development because our CBD worker population is much more manageable than those of SF, NY or CHI.

I was surprised at the lack of traffic - foot and otherwise in the more business oriented sections of the Loop during the day.

Yep yep. I think people feel more comfortable living downtown while also working downtown, in smaller cities because it's not as chaotic and overwhelming of an environment.

 

I remember when I lived in Cincinnati and worked at a restaurant, we would get off work at like 1am and there were still a bunch of places we could go to after, for food and drinks to hang out and relax. Places like Shanghai Mamas which is open until like 4am. I thought it was incredible to have that. That's a huge pet peeve of mine and certainly a way in which I judge a city or neighborhood's vibrancy - How many places around here are open REALLY late? People have jobs where they're working on something in the office all night long and want take-out, or you'll have people coming back from bars who get hungry after they're drunk but you're hard-pressed to find that kind of flexibility in Ohio's cities, even downtown. It's so annoying when your favorite places close-down at 6pm and aren't even open on weekends when they're located right in the heart of downtown! It's asinine. Maybe it's just a cultural thing in big cities and Vegas, where people demand that. People in Ohio generally don't seem to mind. If what they want is closed, they just stay home. To me, that should make a neighborhood highly marketable to businesses and residents - when you have places open everyday and until 4am. I really wish we had more of that but it's not going to happen downtown unless they have a major, major resurgence in population.

Sorry, I went off on a little rant there. I wanted Chinese late last night and couldn't get it lol

Sorry, I went off on a little rant there. I wanted Chinese late last night and couldn't get it lol

 

lol.

^^ Keep in mind that most of these CBDs have not been "vibrant mixed-use" since the turn of the 20th century right before the massive streetcar suburbanization movement.

 

Here's the 1950 census for Cincinnati and Cleveland:

http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/41557421v3p1ch7.pdf

 

It shows that only about 7575 people lived in downtown Cleveland at the time. And that's kind of a generous estimate because the tract south of Euclid seems to go all the way out to 31st or so.

 

Unfortunately, I can't find detailed data except by ward prior to 1950, although Wikipedia tells me that Cleveland was one of the first cities to create census tracts in 1910 (a Cleveland man came up with the idea).

Sorry, I went off on a little rant there. I wanted Chinese late last night and couldn't get it lol

 

Joy's on High Street is open until 4am. Tsk tsk.

Yep yep. I think people feel more comfortable living downtown while also working downtown, in smaller cities because it's not as chaotic and overwhelming of an environment.

 

I remember when I lived in Cincinnati and worked at a restaurant, we would get off work at like 1am and there were still a bunch of places we could go to after, for food and drinks to hang out and relax. Places like Shanghai Mamas which is open until like 4am. I thought it was incredible to have that. That's a huge pet peeve of mine and certainly a way in which I judge a city or neighborhood's vibrancy - How many places around here are open REALLY late? People have jobs where they're working on something in the office all night long and want take-out, or you'll have people coming back from bars who get hungry after they're drunk but you're hard-pressed to find that kind of flexibility in Ohio's cities, even downtown. It's so annoying when your favorite places close-down at 6pm and aren't even open on weekends when they're located right in the heart of downtown! It's asinine. Maybe it's just a cultural thing in big cities and Vegas, where people demand that. People in Ohio generally don't seem to mind. If what they want is closed, they just stay home. To me, that should make a neighborhood highly marketable to businesses and residents - when you have places open everyday and until 4am. I really wish we had more of that but it's not going to happen downtown unless they have a major, major resurgence in population.

 

I don't think it's so much a matter of how big a city is, but a matter of how many folks it has that don't have to get up in the morning.  Nothing's better for night life than tourists, college students, and trust funders.

Yep yep. I think people feel more comfortable living downtown while also working downtown, in smaller cities because it's not as chaotic and overwhelming of an environment.

 

I remember when I lived in Cincinnati and worked at a restaurant, we would get off work at like 1am and there were still a bunch of places we could go to after, for food and drinks to hang out and relax. Places like Shanghai Mamas which is open until like 4am. I thought it was incredible to have that. That's a huge pet peeve of mine and certainly a way in which I judge a city or neighborhood's vibrancy - How many places around here are open REALLY late? People have jobs where they're working on something in the office all night long and want take-out, or you'll have people coming back from bars who get hungry after they're drunk but you're hard-pressed to find that kind of flexibility in Ohio's cities, even downtown. It's so annoying when your favorite places close-down at 6pm and aren't even open on weekends when they're located right in the heart of downtown! It's asinine. Maybe it's just a cultural thing in big cities and Vegas, where people demand that. People in Ohio generally don't seem to mind. If what they want is closed, they just stay home. To me, that should make a neighborhood highly marketable to businesses and residents - when you have places open everyday and until 4am. I really wish we had more of that but it's not going to happen downtown unless they have a major, major resurgence in population.

 

I don't think it's so much a matter of how big a city is, but a matter of how many folks it has that don't have to get up in the morning.  Nothing's better for night life than tourists, college students, and trust funders.

 

Well I think trust funders and tourists do tend to gravitate towards large cities but obviously there's plenty of exceptions.

I came across downtown cincinnati's estimated 2009 population as well as projected population for 2012, just thought id share it. For 2009 its showing a population of 9,026 and for 2012 a population 12,452.

 

Heres the link, I found the information on urbancincy.com

http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/05/downtown-cincinnati-experiences-strong-progress-during-recession/

I came across downtown cincinnati's estimated 2009 population as well as projected population for 2012, just thought id share it. For 2009 its showing a population of 9,026 and for 2012 a population 12,452.

 

Heres the link, I found the information on urbancincy.com

http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/05/downtown-cincinnati-experiences-strong-progress-during-recession/

What area(s) are considered "downtown" in this analysis?

The chart states these est. are just for the CBD of Cincinnati, it doesn't really go into detail so these numbers can be taken with a grain of salt. I just seen this and thought id share. I'm sure its including over the rhine, which in my opinion should be included in downtown cincys population, but that's just my opinion.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_U72QTDcNpU0/S97oKhYs2JI/AAAAAAAACWg/f278Z-O4dsw/s1600/Downtown+Cincinnati+Population+Growth.JPG

 

It shows pretty clear the actual CBD and OTR's growth.

The definitions are in DCI's 2009 Annual State of Downtown Report: http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/AboutUs/AboutUsOurPublications.aspx

 

“Central Business District (CBD)” refers to the area inside the boundaries of Eggleston, the

Ohio River, Central Avenue, and Central Parkway. 

 

Surround areas include Over-the-Rhine, Pendleton, the West End, and Queensgate.

 

Also please note that the chart separates CBD numbers in green from CBD Periphery in blue.  The numbers quoted above are combined totals.

Thanks everyone for clarifying the information, I just seen it and got excited that dowtown cincinnati is experiencing growth. Obviously with the banks project in full force as well as renovations happening downtown there was bound to be some growth.

Here is the most encouraging sign:

 

Under Construction

CBD- 1,600

Periphery 125

 

Pre-Development/Proposed

CBD- 354

Periphery- 205

 

Total Future Units

CBD- 1,954

Periphery- 330

Despite falling under a population of 400,000 the Plain Dealer is reporting that downtown Cleveland saw a population increase of 20% or more between 2000 and 2010. Outside of that, it appears that the other areas of population increase were University Circle, some pockets on the southwest side (Riverside/Jefferson), in Euclid-Green, and interestingly, in Goodrich-Kirtland (east end of downtown / Asiatown area), Fairfax and Central. Despite the obvious revitalization taking place on the Near West Side, according to the PD's initial coverage, those nabes still lost population. For the life of me, I can't track down the census tracts I need to pull specific numbers for downtown :(

 

Map available at http://media.cleveland.com/metro/photo/10wg1acensusjpg-f6f521b5b0b769a5.jpg.

 

 

^ I think places like Tremont could be losing population because of low income families moving out and middle to high income couples moving in. You get 5 people leaving but only 2 moving in.

Despite falling under a population of 400,000 the Plain Dealer is reporting that downtown Cleveland saw a population increase of 20% or more between 2000 and 2010. Outside of that, it appears that the other areas of population increase were University Circle, some pockets on the southwest side (Riverside/Jefferson), in Euclid-Green, and interestingly, in Goodrich-Kirtland (east end of downtown / Asiatown area), Fairfax and Central. Despite the obvious revitalization taking place on the Near West Side, according to the PD's initial coverage, those nabes still lost population. For the life of me, I can't track down the census tracts I need to pull specific numbers for downtown :(

 

Map available at http://media.cleveland.com/metro/photo/10wg1acensusjpg-f6f521b5b0b769a5.jpg.

 

 

 

Near west side:

You have situations where a home has been cut up into 5 apartments. It is sold and renovated by a young couple. You lose 5 apartments' worth of low income residents and gain 2 middle to upper middle class residents. This has been going on for a while.

^yep. Also, young proffesional and artistic type tend to have less children and children later than lower income working class folks, which also lowers the numbers as they move back into neighborhoods. So overall numbers may not be as a big of an indicator of the health of a neighborhood as before. (I am not saying that some Cleveland nabes haven't been decimated by people leaving, just saying that in some nabes population loss is actually a sign of good things happening, ie Near west and Detroit Shoreway)

 

To steal an anology from sports, we maybe witnessing the rebuilding of Cleveland, much like the Cavs.

The phrase is "addition by subtraction"

I just cant wait till the numbers come out so I can see to what extent the improvement is. Did the number of people in poverty go down, did the average income go up, what are the new demographics in the area, etc.

Anything for Cincinnati yet for DT population...? The Census site is difficult to use.

 

  Just a note of caution:

 

  I don't know how this affect the Census numbers, but watch out for prison populations. If the Sherrif opens or closes a facility, it might make a big difference.  :police:

^yep. Also, young proffesional and artistic type tend to have less children and children later than lower income working class folks, which also lowers the numbers as they move back into neighborhoods. So overall numbers may not be as a big of an indicator of the health of a neighborhood as before. (I am not saying that some Cleveland nabes haven't been decimated by people leaving, just saying that in some nabes population loss is actually a sign of good things happening, ie Near west and Detroit Shoreway)

 

To steal an anology from sports, we maybe witnessing the rebuilding of Cleveland, much like the Cavs.

 

The best figure is number of households.

Despite falling under a population of 400,000 the Plain Dealer is reporting that downtown Cleveland saw a population increase of 20% or more between 2000 and 2010. Outside of that, it appears that the other areas of population increase were University Circle, some pockets on the southwest side (Riverside/Jefferson), in Euclid-Green, and interestingly, in Goodrich-Kirtland (east end of downtown / Asiatown area), Fairfax and Central. Despite the obvious revitalization taking place on the Near West Side, according to the PD's initial coverage, those nabes still lost population. For the life of me, I can't track down the census tracts I need to pull specific numbers for downtown :(

 

Map available at http://media.cleveland.com/metro/photo/10wg1acensusjpg-f6f521b5b0b769a5.jpg.

 

 

 

Near west side:

You have situations where a home has been cut up into 5 apartments. It is sold and renovated by a young couple. You lose 5 apartments' worth of low income residents and gain 2 middle to upper middle class residents. This has been going on for a while.

 

Another good measure could be annual income per household. 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing re: the Near West Side. I would add % 25 and above and Bachelor's or higher to the list to watch for positive change.

 

I was more just really surprised to see increases in Asiatown, Central and Fairfax ... Not to say efforts haven't been made in all of those areas, but surprising to me nonetheless.

 

Looking forward to seeing specific numbers for downtown. I would anticipate a 20% or more increase means we're looking at 12,000 or more.

I'm still wondering where that 10,000 number came from