Did you all not read the report?  They are including OTR in the 13,000 figure.  Interestingly, the report shows an increase of almost 5,000 residents in the last 5 years in the CBD/OTR. 

 

So what is downtowns true figure?  Is OTR considered downtown? That is Downtown without OTR.

Full Report. Read. Population estimate can be found on page 5.

Yes, we read the report. They are estimating. The end. We all know there is growth. That's obvious in each of the 3 c's.

Did you all not read the report?  They are including OTR in the 13,000 figure.  Interestingly, the report shows an increase of almost 5,000 residents in the last 5 years in the CBD/OTR. 

 

So what is downtowns true figure?  Is OTR considered downtown? That is Downtown without OTR.

 

"Downtown Cincinnati" is an organization and usually includes OTR and Pendleton as well as the CBD in their publications.  The CBD is mostly commercial, and OTR and Pendleton are the residential areas of what most people consider "downtown."

Yes, we read the report. They are estimating. The end. We all know there is growth. That's obvious in each of the 3 c's.

 

The estimate is based upon the fact that there are around 9000 residential units, including the ~1000 or so that were completed in the past year. 

 

I could see the trend of ~1000 units per year for at least a couple more years, in my opinion.  There's still lots of potential in OTR.

Looks like OTR is growing much faster than Downtown.  I would assume that is because of lower rents and available space. 

 

I agree with Confiteodeo that it is not as much demand, but supply, which will frustrate growth in the downtowns of the 3C's.  New condo construction is almost out of the question anywhere.  So it is rentals which will sput growth.  Here in Cleveland, our rental occupancy rates are off the charts good....... but the rents are not high enough per SF to justify an influx of new construction.  Thus, we have to wait for older buildings to be eligible for re-use and then wait for the tax credits to come through which would make the conversion profitable.  That said, we do have a new residential project in University Circle which will have a rental rate north of $2/sf..... which seems to be the point at which new construction can get financing.  If that project rents out as quickly as our most recents projects involving adaptive re-use and a waiting list ensues (like those other projects), then watch out..... the dominoes will fall and we could potentially see a boom in construction and a

No denying of that. Look at my posts in the 2010 census data thread...I spoke on that for each of our metro areas. All of the major cities have seen massive growth in the last few years in the downtown cores. It's not stopping anytime soon either.

CBD, Queensgate, OTR, Pendleton, and West End are all downtown neighborhoods. OTR and West End have a lot of vacant housing. CBD has parking lots and office vacancy that can fit residential units, including a parking lot which dunnhumby is building a new headquarters on with a residential component.

 

Mercer Commons (in OTR) and the second phase of the Banks (in CBD) will be online shortly, adding a few hundred new units. The Federal Reserve renovation is adding somewhere around 100 units -- they are putting final touches on that office building conversion.

 

Getting to 20k is ambitious, but certainly possible. The streetcar might kick development up a notch in a couple years, speeding up renovations and new construction, much of which could come online within 5 years.

Looks like OTR is growing much faster than Downtown.  I would assume that is because of lower rents and available space. 

 

I agree with Confiteodeo that it is not as much demand, but supply, which will frustrate growth in the downtowns of the 3C's.  New condo construction is almost out of the question anywhere.  So it is rentals which will sput growth.  Here in Cleveland, our rental occupancy rates are off the charts good....... but the rents are not high enough per SF to justify an influx of new construction.  Thus, we have to wait for older buildings to be eligible for re-use and then wait for the tax credits to come through which would make the conversion profitable.  That said, we do have a new residential project in University Circle which will have a rental rate north of $2/sf..... which seems to be the point at which new construction can get financing.  If that project rents out as quickly as our most recents projects involving adaptive re-use and a waiting list ensues (like those other projects), then watch out..... the dominoes will fall and we could potentially see a boom in construction and a

 

3CDC is a major player for which I don't believe Cleveland has anything equivalent.

And here goes the pissing contest.  I don't understand why everything in Ohio has to be a competition.  Each of our cities cores growing is great.  We will see great growth over this next decade and that is thrilling.

I was just stating a fact...the picture is a little different in Cincinnati than the one Hts121 painted because there is no 3CDC there. They've been a huge force in downtown development in Cincy.

 

And the numbers were not for comparison purposes but to illustrate that 20k is not impossible because there is rapid growth happening now.

 

If you want to place blame for the start of a pissing contest, look here:

^ you're joking right?

And here goes the pissing contest.  I don't understand why everything in Ohio has to be a competition.  Each of our cities cores growing is great.  We will see great growth over this next decade and that is thrilling.

 

I don't believe this is a pissing match, I am not familiar with the boundaries of Downtown Cinci, so I was asking because in other reports they have stated their population around 5k, now its 13k.  Atleast this estimate gives boundaries and breaks down the CBD and the adjoining downtown neighborhoods.  Based on some comments this number may have caught some cinci folks off guard.

I was just stating a fact...the picture is a little different in Cincinnati than the one Hts121 painted because there is no 3CDC there. They've been a huge force in downtown development in Cincy.

 

I don't really know much (or anything) about 3CDC, but we do have among others....

 

Downtown Cleveland Alliance Inc.

Midtown Inc.

University Circle Inc.

 

I imagine Midtown Inc is most akin to 3CDC.  DCA probably not so much.  UCI is a different beast...... it literally runs UC, right down to a private/public police force, and owns a ton of land.

 

Just curious, but how does 3CDC change the game on the points I raised?

Question for Cincinnati

 

So Downtown Population(Excluding OTR) is 5,657

And including OTR they are saying around 13,000

 

I see it really hard to get to 20,000 by the next census for one reason. OTR could lose population by the next census, dropping the 13,000 lower. This is because when you look at these census tracts in OTR, they are losing 10 to 25% of their population. The mostly black census tracts are losing a large percentage of their black population and gaining lower amount of white population. But that is how it usually works. A family of 4 or so might move out, and a young professional by themself, or possibly with a spouse, bringing 1 or 2 people in. So you lose about 2 people from the population total, possibly more.

 

So this 13,000 number could easily be lower by 2020, so thats why I believe 20,000 in unrealistic. I do believe the population with be wealthier though.

A nonprofit did a count of OTR's population in 2007, and put it at under 5,000 (compared to a 2000, pre-riots 7500 or so). The 2010 census put it at a bit under  7,000 I believe. So it looks like there's reason to think that OTR is gaining people, even if some black residents are leaving.

 

OTR was really, REALLY vacant prior to 3CDC. I don't think there are a ton of families living there who stand to leave in the first place.

Banks Phase II, Fed Reserve coming online, 5th & Race residential tower component, Bartlett Building, Old Enquirer building, possible One River Place revival as apartments, 5 more years of 3CDC developing OTR, Indie Apartment/Condo renovations plus Streetcar spurred investments North of Liberty = 20,000 people downtown. I didn't think we'd hit 10,000 at 2010 but we did and the way the market is leaning towards upscale residential downtown I don't see any reason why Cincinnati can't get there in five years.

Just curious, but how does 3CDC change the game on the points I raised?

 

They are massively overhauling Over-the-Rhine with renovations that most investors/developers wouldn't make. Basically, business and government leaders got together and said...this place is messed up, and we are going to fix it, period. They've built a bunch of condos -- new construction and historic renovations -- as well as rental units, more or less with a "cost per square foot be damned" attitude.

Question for the census geeks (I mean that affectionately ;))....... what is 'downtown' cleveland's population when you add in the surrounding neighborhoods (Ohio City, Tremont, Asiatown, etc)?

Question for the census geeks (I mean that affectionately ;))....... what is 'downtown' cleveland's population when you add in the surrounding neighborhoods (Ohio City, Tremont, Asiatown, etc)?

 

Well with those 3, if you include those entire neighborhoods, gets you 29,323.

 

If you only take the heart of those neighborhoods you get 17,234

Question for the census geeks (I mean that affectionately ;))....... what is 'downtown' cleveland's population when you add in the surrounding neighborhoods (Ohio City, Tremont, Asiatown, etc)?

 

Wouldn't Central also be considered "downtown" or at least the Western part of Central?

^Do most people in NE Ohio consider Ohio City and Tremont 'downtown'?

 

Not familiar on the situation there, but Cincinnati's downtown can be really hard to define.  The CBD is well defined by 75 on the West, Central Parkway on the North, 71 on the East, and the River on the South.  However, most people in the region consider OTR, Queensgate, Pendleton, West End, and East End to also be part of downtown because they're all really dense, old, and residential is almost entirely multi family, and adjacent to the CBD.  If you just looked at proximity to the CBD, parts of Covington and Newport, as well as Mt. Adams would be counted as greater downtown, but almost no one would group those neighborhoods in with Downtown because they're either 1) in KY or 2) separated by topography.  I would like to see a 'core population' for Cincy that includes: CBD, OTR, West End, Mt. Adams, Newport, Covington, East End, and Pendleton.

edale....I for one don't. Ohio City and Tremont are neighborhoods just outside of downtown, but I'd never consider them to be part of downtown.

11,693  Downtown Tracts

+ 3,254 Tract 103602 (Ohio City Northeast)

+ 1,143 Tract 1042 (Tremont North)

+ 1,873 Tract 109301 (Central Northwest)

+ 4,393 Tract 108701 (Prospect Corridor)

+ 1,647 Tract 108301 (Asiatown South)

+ 1,354 Tract 108201 (Asiatown North)

_______

 

25,357

 

These are just the tracts of downtown plus tracts that are directly adjacent. It leaves out several Ohio City tracts, a couple Tremont tracts and an Asiatown tract. Still, it's picking up some population all the way to East 55th ... It's a real stretch to think of this as being downtown ... Or a comparison to downtown Cincy + OTR, which is what I think we're trying to do :)

edale....I for one don't. Ohio City and Tremont are neighborhoods just outside of downtown, but I'd never consider them to be part of downtown.

 

I don't either. I'm curious what people would say about Stonebridge--would you consider that part of downtown's population? Officially, I'm pretty sure that it belongs to Ohio City.

^Do most people in NE Ohio consider Ohio City and Tremont 'downtown'?

 

Not familiar on the situation there, but Cincinnati's downtown can be really hard to define.  The CBD is well defined by 75 on the West, Central Parkway on the North, 71 on the East, and the River on the South.  However, most people in the region consider OTR, Queensgate, Pendleton, West End, and East End to also be part of downtown because they're all really dense, old, and residential is almost entirely multi family, and adjacent to the CBD.  If you just looked at proximity to the CBD, parts of Covington and Newport, as well as Mt. Adams would be counted as greater downtown, but almost no one would group those neighborhoods in with Downtown because they're either 1) in KY or 2) separated by topography.  I would like to see a 'core population' for Cincy that includes: CBD, OTR, West End, Mt. Adams, Newport, Covington, East End, and Pendleton.

 

I wouldn't consider Ohio City or Tremont downtown. Sections at best.

 

This is what I consider Downtown Cleveland:

The Western border, to include the following neighborhoods

• West Bank of the Flats (I think this is considered Ohio City)
  
• Duck Island (I think this is considered Tremont)
  

The borders of the east side would be

The lake to the north

Broadway to the South

East 30 Street to the East

 

This would include the following neighborhoods

• East Bank of the Flats
  
• WHD
  
• CBD
  
• East Fourth
  
• PHS
  
• CSU
  
• Tri-C/Central
  
• East 12 Street
  

Using the above, what would our "downtown" population be?

 

If this isn't a semi-accurate boundary of downtown please speak now.

^^ East End??? How does that count?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:East-End-Cincinnati-map.jpg

^^ Approximately what is the land area of that space?

I consider anything I can walk to within 15 minutes (and i live downtown) part of my neighborhood. That would include tremont, flats west bank, and part of Ohio city, central and asiatown

http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map

At the Census Tract level, it would be hard to pick up little extra sections to downtown ... My Census Tract, for instance, runs from E. 30 to E. 55, so it's not like you can pick up a couple extra blocks around Tri-C without picking up a lot of Central, too. Flats West Bank is a pretty small tract that doesn't pick up any Ohio City areas (but does pick up CMHA's Lakeview properties), and it's typically included in downtown numbers.

edale....I for one don't. Ohio City and Tremont are neighborhoods just outside of downtown, but I'd never consider them to be part of downtown.

 

I don't either. I'm curious what people would say about Stonebridge--would you consider that part of downtown's population? Officially, I'm pretty sure that it belongs to Ohio City.

 

Interesting- I'd always considered Stonebridge to be part of the Flats....in which case I'd say thats downtown.

Cleveland's "downtown" is our CBD..... nobody would refer to OC and Tremont as downtown.  But for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter.  It's just a name.  I was just curious what the population would be if we used the adjacent neighborhoods most similar to OTR.

 

I dont like including the West Bank. I call that its own neighborhood. Not a part of Ohio City, even though technically it is, though in reality, its not.

http://g.co/maps/45bw2

 

Do you think any borders should be extended? Should Ohio City go up to Detroit Avenue?

http://g.co/maps/45bw2

 

Do you think any borders should be extended? Should Ohio City go up to Detroit Avenue?

 

I wouldn't include Asia town it's on the other side of the highway.  Can we use the border I gave earlier?

To me, "downtown" (again.... just a name) is bordered as follows:

 

North - Lake Erie

West - Cuyahoga River

South - The Innerbelt bridge

East - Playhouse Square (i.e. E 17th) and probably narrowing to E 12th as you go north

 

I don't include the West Bank, CSU, or Asiatown.  The term "downtown" is synonymous with CBD in my book.

That said, we do have a new residential project in University Circle which will have a rental rate north of $2/sf..... which seems to be the point at which new construction can get financing.  If that project rents out as quickly as our most recents projects involving adaptive re-use and a waiting list ensues (like those other projects), then watch out..... the dominoes will fall and we could potentially see a boom in construction

 

Developers are throwing around the $2/sf price tag as a key breaking point for new construction residential in downtown Cleveland, but I'm not sure I totally buy that. If I have my numbers right, Uptown is an estimated $44,500,000 for 102 units (plus retail), which breaks down to $436,275 per unit (which are all 1- and 2-bedrooms). But CSU is estimating that the Campus District development will cost $50,000,000 for 300 units (plus more modest retail space), which breaks down to $166,667 per unit (some of which are 3- and 4-bedrooms, with 3 to 4 bathrooms, which probably means bigger floor plans per avg. unit). Neither project, to the best of my knowledge, had to deal with acquisition cost for land.

 

Unless I'm totally misremembering/misinterpreting the numbers, that seems to indicate that $2/sf might be a breaking point ... for new construction that looks like Uptown. But if Campus Village is really getting constructed at about 40% the per unit cost of Uptown, that seems to indicate that it is indeed possible to be doing new construction in 3C downtowns, provided that you have access to free buildable land and have a product with more modest construction and finishes. I'm all about the quality that Uptown's offering and that places like Flats East Bank is proposing, but given the staggering rental demand, we should also be throwing up a Campus Village every year! Come on City of Cleveland parking lots! :)

To me, "downtown" (again.... just a name) is bordered as follows:

 

North - Lake Erie

West - Cuyahoga River

South - The Innerbelt bridge

East - Playhouse Square (i.e. E 17th) and probably narrowing to E 12th as you go north

 

I don't include the West Bank, CSU, or Asiatown.  The term "downtown" is synonymous with CBD in my book.

 

Too me the West Bank of the flats and CSU are "downtown".

^ Everyone has differnt opinions. I include CSU because its connected and continues along Euclid Avenue.

 

Flats West Bank I dont include because its separated by the river and is not really continuously connected, and not that walkable IMO.

As a downtown resident...I walk over to Market Square and Flats West all the time.

As a downtown resident...I walk over to Market Square and Flats West all the time.

 

Yeah of course its possible. But Market Square is a 1.6 mile walk from the closest downtown resident, and is mostly a long walk over a long bridge. Not really downtown.

 

And Flats west bank is a decent length unconnected walk

As a downtown resident...I walk over to Market Square and Flats West all the time.

 

Yeah of course its possible. But Market Square is a 1.6 mile walk from the closest downtown resident

 

..... According to your boundaries (which are more expansive than mine).  But if you include Stonebridge as downtown (and I do think there is a plausible argument for that - much like OTR and Cincy's CBD - even though I disagree), MS is much closer than 1.6 miles.  Also, just to be clear for those unfamiliar, the 1.6 miles is certainly not "as the crow flies"

To me, "downtown" (again.... just a name) is bordered as follows:

 

North - Lake Erie

West - Cuyahoga River

South - The Innerbelt bridge

East - Playhouse Square (i.e. E 17th) and probably narrowing to E 12th as you go north

 

I don't include the West Bank, CSU, or Asiatown.  The term "downtown" is synonymous with CBD in my book.

 

I'm kind of the same way. Downtown Cincinnati is, to me, the CBD. OTR and all the other different core neighborhoods in Cincinnati are lacking skyscrapers and large concentrations of workers/daytime populations.  They look, act, and are named differently, yet many people seem content grouping everything in the core as "Downtown" and everything in the Uptown communities as "Clifton".

And here goes the pissing contest.  I don't understand why everything in Ohio has to be a competition.  Each of our cities cores growing is great.  We will see great growth over this next decade and that is thrilling.

 

I don't believe this is a pissing match, I am not familiar with the boundaries of Downtown Cinci, so I was asking because in other reports they have stated their population around 5k, now its 13k.  Atleast this estimate gives boundaries and breaks down the CBD and the adjoining downtown neighborhoods.  Based on some comments this number may have caught some cinci folks off guard.

 

Look at page 11 -- ColDayMan added the Census Tracts up and got a figure above 13,000. 

By which I mean to say that those calculating Downtown Cincinnati's population in the same was as DCI are not surprised by the figure. 

And here goes the pissing contest.  I don't understand why everything in Ohio has to be a competition.  Each of our cities cores growing is great.  We will see great growth over this next decade and that is thrilling.

 

I don't believe this is a pissing match, I am not familiar with the boundaries of Downtown Cinci, so I was asking because in other reports they have stated their population around 5k, now its 13k.  Atleast this estimate gives boundaries and breaks down the CBD and the adjoining downtown neighborhoods.  Based on some comments this number may have caught some cinci folks off guard.

 

Look at page 11 -- ColDayMan added the Census Tracts up and got a figure above 13,000. 

 

Really? As of page 10, his figure for downtown Cincy was 5,657 ... He included OTR after the fact as a courtesy ... So not surprising where the 13,000 comes from but surprising that OTR is being included :)

 

Regardless of what each city's respective borders are, I'm actually more interested that civic leaders in Cincy tend to go with a population total that generously extends population estimates beyond traditional CBD boundaries to include OTR, while in Cleveland, our civic leaders tend to undercount our downtown population below what the Census shows for our traditional CBD. Two very different approaches, and I like Cincy's better :D In Cleveland, it seems like we've always got some advocacy for cutting the West Flats, the Campus District or the prison population.

 

For all of the 3 Cs, I'd argue that it's less important where we count but that we count in the same places in 2020 that we're counting now that we counted in 2010.

 

 

I like honesty, and Cleveland people like PositivelyCleveland constantly spit out the 12,000 number or even the 10,000 number.

 

I went over this in other threads and when you remove Prisoners and Homeless shelters, you get 7217 for Downtown Cleveland.

I met a planner originally from West Chester (living in NYC) who told me "that's downtown" when I told him I lived in Clifton as a kid.

 

From what I can tell, Cincinnatians make a distinction between 'downtown' and 'Downtown' with Downtown being equivalent to the CBD, and downtown including the adjacent neighborhoods in the river basin (OTR, Pendleton (which for those not in-the-know is very tiny and usually considered part of OTR), West End, and Queensgate (which for those not in-the-know is the neighborhood that was completely decimated in the urban renewal days and is now low-density industrial park that never quite panned out and has hardly any residents)).

 

West End is a bit more peripheral so I can see why they tossed it for this study (also the population change would hurt percent change since it is blighted and deteriorating). Queensgate might just as well be included as not, since it has almost nothing but low-density industrial use, due to failed slum-clearance policies and the construction of I-75. Historically, when it was the Kenyon-Barr neighborhood, it was high-density residential adjacent to the CBD, just like OTR. Queensgate is where the city's main train station is, Union Terminal, aka the Hall of Justice.

And for Cincinnati with their 5,657 downtown population. Remove the 1,436 prisoners and you get down to 4,221. Im not familiar enough with Cincinnati to remove and homeless shelter if they exist downtown like I did with Cleveland.

Anyone know where to find the land areas of Ohio's CBDs?