April 27, 200520 yr Isnt their a geographic concept that divides a downtown into the CBD and the "frame area"? Seems that these definintions include the "frame area".
April 28, 200520 yr The Eastern part of Columbus's CBD is extremely ghetto. That could be a good location to fix up in the future, although I have a feeling that most people want to be closer to the river where the action is. Also it's a damn shame COSI eats up so much prime real estate. I think the opposite side of the river has some major real estate potential. Hardly. Unless you want to call Oak/Town Streets "ghetto" along with Jackson Park Circle and the "Discovery District." "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
April 28, 200520 yr Come'on ColDayMan! Town Street is just full of ghetto-dwelling architects and lawyers offices.
April 28, 200520 yr >. There are only VERY few "open lots" left to develop a building on. They only abandoned building downtown is the old McAlpins Dept. Store and that's slated for condos. So while yeah, downtown Cincinnati isn't very large, the neighborhood around it are along with having a compact, walkable city center. If the 8X8 checkerboard (actually 62 blocks due to the jail and convention center) surrounded by 3rd, Central A, Central P, and Broadway is allowed to define Cincinnati's "downtown", then by my count out of 248 street corners 196 are occupied by buildings and 52 are empty lots. In addition, there are at least two dozen more parking lots fragmenting blocks somwhere between the corners. So there is actually plenty of empty land in the central business district for new construction. Approximately a dozen of these lots are never going to be built on (the Cathedral's, Library's, and Krippendorf's parking lots for example), but there is no shortage of available building sites. Grasscat, in bringing up Skyline Acres you brought up Colerain Twp's most notorious enclave, home base for the "7 Dueces" gang which apparently terrorized Northwest and Colerain High's population in the early/mid nineties. I say apparently because I was never witness to any of it (and I was certainly no saint, despite attending St. X), but certainly was witness to the tall tales and fear the "gang" aroused amongst the neighborhood boys. There was/is no shortage of shady characters and behavior in the area, but to file Skyline Acres in the same drawer as, say, Fay Apartments is, from what I've seen, laughable.
April 28, 200520 yr ^ I attended Northwest from 1990-1991 and Colerain from 1991-1992 and I don't think I've ever heard of 7 Deuces. It wouldn't surprise me, though.
April 29, 200520 yr All right, I finally got my quality GIS time. I've calculated populations based on census blocks (the level of finest geographic detail there is) at a 1, 2, 5, and 10 mile radius. The downtown points I used are the "symbolic" centers- Fountain Square in Cincinnati, the state capitol in Columbus, and Public Square in Cleveland. Bearing in mind that these numbers are now five years old... 1 mile radius. Cincinnati gains here because of its small CBD, meaning that much of OTR and the West End is within this distance. However, that probably means that despite a rising "downtown" population, the current population at this distance may actually be smaller now due to loss in the adjacent neighorhoods. Cleveland probably suffers due to the fact that Public Square is not really the geographic center of downtown, and because of what appear to be other large non-residential areas nearby. (The lake doesn't really come into play at this radius.) Cincinnati - 12,925 Columbus - 5,325 Cleveland - 5,600 2 mile radius. From here on out, Lake Erie takes up nearly half (definitely less than half, though) of the areas for Cleveland. Cincinnati - 62,862 Columbus - 40,065 Cleveland - 24,511 5 mile radius. Columbus nearly catches up with Cincinnati; Cleveland lags because of the lake. Cincinnati - 263,958 Columbus - 256,498 Cleveland - 195,610 10 mile radius. Notice how Cleveland now has the highest population despite this being probably 40-45% water area! Cincinnati - 721,227 Columbus - 711,302 Cleveland - 748,532 Conclusion: the words Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland are the exact same length when typed in this font! :lol:
April 29, 200520 yr ^nice to see columbus staying with the big guys in there...the 5 mile point is pretty much all that matters :D The Eastern part of Columbus's CBD is extremely ghetto. That could be a good location to fix up in the future, although I have a feeling that most people want to be closer to the river where the action is. extremely ghetto? why, because it isn't like dublin? without knowing what you mean exactly, i don't know what to think of that statement.
April 29, 200520 yr What strikes me most, and excites me as a Cincinnati-partisan, are the Cincinnati numbers. Of course, they also include Covington and Newport. But I think they point to the viability of OKI's <a href="http://www.oki.org/transportation/centralarea.html">Central Area Loop</a> study, which proposes modern streetcars connecting the basin cities.
April 29, 200520 yr BTW, here's Neighborhood Link's (http://www.nhlink.net/) version of "Downtown" Cleveland:
April 29, 200520 yr Is there some way to do it by square mileage of Census blocks? In other words, a cumulative addition of the areas of the census blocks closest to the central point until the total area equals a certain number of square miles (1, 5, 10 etc). That would elimate lakes and rivers as a factor. I still think Cleveland would suffer because its downtown is ringed by industrial areas, not neighborhoods. But it would be closer.
April 30, 200520 yr ^ That's an interesting idea; it can probably be done, but I'm not enough of an expert to know how other than to buffer the downtown with circles as I did, but trying different radii until it includes the right amount of actual land area. However, I don't know how relevant it would really be to downtown. Because you're limited in the directions you can move outward, you'd obviously have to go out a longer distance in those directions than if you could go out in all directions. And if you're including areas 5 miles away in Cleveland but only 2 miles away in Cincinnati and Columbus, for example, I'm not sure you'd really be comparing the same thing. Certainly it's apples to apples in terms of total population within a given area, but at least in theory you'd get to a point where the included Cleveland neighborhoods are simply too far away to have as strong a tie to downtown as they do in the other cities where only closer neighborhoods are included. That said, going 5 or 10 miles out as I did probably doesn't say much about downtown either. In any case, the way I see it, the numbers for Cleveland shouldn't be seen as some kind of misrepresentation, but rather perhaps just for the "wow" factor of how high Cleveland's numbers might be if the lake weren't there as a barrier. But along the lines of your suggestion, something I think would be interesting would be to find the magic land area number where the Cleveland and Cincinnati populations match. Based on my list, I guess if you divide the land areas in half for the 2-mile and 5-mile radius (since only about half of those circles' areas are land for Cleveland), the matching point would be somewhere between the two, since Cincinnati's population is still more than double Cleveland's at the 2-mile radius but not at the 5-mile radius. That range would be about 6.3 to 39.3 square miles, probably near the lower end. I have my doubts as to whether any of what I posted above actually came out as coherent, but hopefully I'm making a bit of sense.
April 30, 200520 yr Wow...thanks for compiling those numbers! I love that Cincinnati has more than 60K people within 2 miles of downtown - that's pretty incredible, I wouldn't have guessed it. But I'm happy to be one of them!
October 17, 200717 yr Any updates regarding the downtown populations of the 3 C's as of 2007? I imagine we have a better idea of whether the downtowns will hit the 2010 projections by this point (for instance, I wouldn't be suprised to see Cleveland somewhere in the 14,000 to 15,000 range, but I'd be really surprised to see us top 20,000). Also, does anyone have these population numbers as a percentage of MSA population? I was looking at the Katz article thread, which talked about the need to set a goal that 2% of MSAs reside in the downtown of their primary city. Wondering, given current population trends, how soon any of the 3 Cs would achieve this. My guess is that not very soon for any of the cities but that 1, possibly 2, might hit that rate in another 10 or 15 years if they continued to grow at their present rate.
October 17, 200717 yr I thought I read in the paper this week Cleveland is still pegged at 10,000 for downtown.
October 17, 200717 yr Alright, trying to get some numbers here. Feel free to correct. Cleveland: 1990: 10,000 2004: 21,000 Columbus: 1990: 3,800 2004: 6,000 Cincinnati CBD: 1990: 3,838 (Source) 1998: 4,810 (Source) 2000: 3,189 (Source) 2006: 3,283 | 3,818 with revised `drilldown` nbrs. (Source)
October 17, 200717 yr How could Cincy have lost population in the CBD? There has been a fair amount of condos and apartments built.
October 17, 200717 yr Well, when were the OTR projects demolished? Early 2000s? That must have displaced a lot of people, hence a drop from 1998-2000? I'm not for sure 100%...
October 17, 200717 yr But OTR isn't counted in the CBD's numbers. If it was, the numbers would be much higher ( I think at last count/guess, OTR was at around 7,000).
October 18, 200717 yr Last I heard CBD was nearing 4 or 5 G's! I thought I read it somewhere on this forum. Will have to go look for it! 7,000 for OTR sounds about right! OTR pop. was 44,000 in its heydey 1950ish
October 18, 200717 yr I know we have gone around the horn on this one previously, but according to DCI for Cincinnati. They project 4,292 for 2007: CBD Greater CBD 1999 2957 4971 2000 3102 5148 2001 3248 5693 2002 3590 6383 2003 3653 6647 2004 3704 6962 2005 3786 7445 2006 3980 7785
October 18, 200717 yr What defines CBD and greater CBD in this instance? And does the figures above reflect the Census estimates or the drilldown from the city?
October 18, 200717 yr ^ One thing that is a disadvantage to Cincinnati is that we define out "downtown" by it's financial district. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with that, but it looks worse to the average joe that wouldn't be on urbanohio.
October 18, 200717 yr Seicer, I wish 21,000 was accurate, but we (Cleveland) are just shy of 10,000 as of now. I haven't seen exact numbers.
October 18, 200717 yr What defines CBD and greater CBD in this instance? And does the figures above reflect the Census estimates or the drilldown from the city? Greater CBD is OTR, CityWest/Betts Longworth sections of the West End, and Adams Landing. I call shenanigans on just cherry picking out the sections of the West End that are being redeveloped. Count on them to keep following those stats eastward along Eastern Ave as well.
October 18, 200717 yr I thought downtown was around 12-13k? I read somewhere 15k with a goal of 25k in the next 10 years.
October 18, 200717 yr I thought downtown was around 12-13k? I read somewhere 15k with a goal of 25k in the next 10 years. There are so many conflicting numbers and what boundaries they are using. :|
October 18, 200717 yr What defines CBD and greater CBD in this instance? And does the figures above reflect the Census estimates or the drilldown from the city? Greater CBD is OTR, CityWest/Betts Longworth sections of the West End, and Adams Landing. I call shenanigans on just cherry picking out the sections of the West End that are being redeveloped. Count on them to keep following those stats eastward along Eastern Ave as well. I don't think Greater CBD includes all of OTR, or does it? I think the population of OTR by itself is near 7000.
October 18, 200717 yr Downtown Cleveland's population is between 9,800 - 10,000 with an average of 95% occupancy in downtown buildings between the Innerbelt and the river, the lake to Carnegie. We can't get any high population unless we start building more, although the rehab of buildings on Euclid Avenue between East 9th & East 14th will bring several hundred more apartments online.
October 18, 200717 yr The earlier stats I produced were from the first post in this thread, FTW. As for the Greater CBD stats, there are too many conflicting numbers. Several posters have reported on different figures, and a general query has produced different numbers for OTR, Greater CBD, and CBD, defined either by the official Census report or by the city of Cincinnati's drilldown figures. Ugh. At least the trend is positive. If OTR was 4971 and is now nearing 4800, what was its official low? That's really amazing to have such a comeback!
October 18, 200717 yr Why isn't the west bank of the flats included? To me that is Downtown not Ohio City.
October 18, 200717 yr As MTS said the conflicts are probably due to boundaries in each city. I would consider the flats west bank as downtown and these are not counted in the 10k for Cleveland.
October 18, 200717 yr For Cincy...by the 2010 Census I am guessing there will be somewhere around 10,000 in the Greater CBD and around 5k in the actual CBD. To be fair the number that Cincy should use to compare is the Greater CBD, because within the CBD itself there is VERY little area built for residential. No one counts the population of West Chester by only looking at Union Centre, for example. I know it's not the same but you get what I'm saying.
October 18, 200717 yr One issue to remember on downtown numbers is that the household numbers and actual population numbers will be very close to together. You don't the suburban multiplier effect of families. Since these areas are oriented to those without children and to smaller living spaces, I'd be as interested in seeing an household numbers because that will tell you better how well the residential areas are filling in. Downtown Cincy used to have a lot more transitional housing in the CBD than it does today. There were at least three or four flophouses ten years ago that are gone now.
October 18, 200717 yr From what I understand, Cleveland's numbers fluctuate depending on who you're talking to, based on two factors: a) whether they include incarcerated individuals as downtown residents and b) the scope of downtown. When people talked about a downtown population of more than 10,000 a couple years ago, they often included everything up to the eastern side of Ohio City. I would love to have a more accurate number on this. As of 2000, the Cleveland Planning Commission's definted area for downtown had a population of 5,960. It's important to note that the census tract estimate for 1950 for the same area was 12,068; in 1970, it had dropped to a low of 3,844. If we're around 10,000 now, that's a major accomplishment ... we're approaching a historically high population downtown during a 50-year period when the population of the city overall has halved ... that's pretty amazing. Wikipedia, meanwhile, estimates that our population was 9,599 as of 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Cleveland#_note-0). I haven't found 2006 estimates yet. We're still a great deal away, however, from the Urban Institute goal of 2% of the MSA population living downtown. Based on the most recent census estimate, our MSA consists of roughly 2.2 million people, which means they would recommend 44,000 people live downtown. If we maintained our current high rate of growth (28.1% between 1990-2000), we would reach that goal somewhere between 2060 and 2070.
October 18, 200717 yr Why isn't the west bank of the flats included? To me that is Downtown not Ohio City. MyTwoSense, you're right that they should be included, but each CDC claims their own territory. The actual counting of downtown stops at West 10th street because the Flat's Oxbow claims the West Bank. I would assume they will also include the East Bank once the project starts. I was just giving the numbers we give, but you're right to include Stonebridge and Nautica into downtown.
October 18, 200717 yr Downtown Cleveland's population is between 9,800 - 10,000 with an average of 95% occupancy in downtown buildings between the Innerbelt and the river, the lake to Carnegie. We can't get any high population unless we start building more, although the rehab of buildings on Euclid Avenue between East 9th & East 14th will bring several hundred more apartments online. Good points ... those are great occupancy numbers! I would add that the already underway new construction at the Avenue District should start adding incrementally to the numbers over the next couple years. We also have the Park Building rehab and additional units coming online on E. 4th. In terms of numbers, the state's new preservation credit should be a major boon in adding additional units, as it will incentivize development plans you mentioned between E. 9th and E. 14th, as well as in several warehouse buildings in the E. 20s along Superior, College Town, etc. So even in the absence of new construction, there are opportunities to add several hundreds if not thousands more units, as long as rehabilitation is incentivized with parity to how we incentivize new construction.
October 18, 200717 yr Downtown Cleveland's population is between 9,800 - 10,000 with an average of 95% occupancy in downtown buildings between the Innerbelt and the river, the lake to Carnegie. That still seems low. The Brookings Institution report "Who Lives Downtown"* found 9,600 people downtown in 2000, an increase of 32% over 1990. Although they don't give the boundaries they used to come up with that figure, they state that the boundaries for all the cities in the study came from the municipal government, and were checked on-site by researchers. I assume that the city of Cleveland gave them a definition similar to yours, since your definition matches up pretty well with the neighborhood map on the city website. If we've really only gained 200-400 people in the past 7 years, that represents a 2-4% growth. I know our economy hasn't been the greatest and there hasn't been a glut of new development, but it seems hard to believe that growth would drop 30% just like that. *PDF:http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/reports/2005/11downtownredevelopment_birch/20051115_Birch.pdf Also, fwiw, the Fannie Mae Foundation (in conjunction with Brookings) published this: http://www.fanniemaefoundation.org/programs/census_notes_3.html, which gives downtown's area as 4.3 square miles. The source given for that is the Census Bureau by way of the University of Pennsylvania's department of city and regional planning.
October 18, 200717 yr ^ Again, I think that this study included incarcertated individuals and boundaries of downtown in that study that stretched from W. 25th to E. 26th, rather than the smaller footprint the city of Cleveland uses typically for downtown, which terminates at the east bank. If this is the case, we could add in everyone who's at the Justice Center, as well as everyone who's at Stonebridge, Duck Island, CMHA's Lakeview, CMHA's Riverview, Fries & Schuele, etc. Not exactly sure on these boundaries, but Chris Ronayne was featured in an article about downtown population when he was still city planner and I recall them noting these boundaries. I think at the time, which must have been 2002 or 2003, they were putting the number at approaching 11,000 with the boundaries of that study. Even with Stonebridge alone, we must gain another thousand residents.
October 18, 200717 yr Radii, Radii, Radii, the only apples to apples approach (me being a broken record).
October 18, 200717 yr The brookings institute report did include a wider footprint. My numbers don't include everyone in the justice center.
October 18, 200717 yr Radii, Radii, Radii, the only apples to apples approach (me being a broken record). Not really. Some downtowns are larger in area than others. Would it be fair to compare population of a 1 mile radius from Cleveland's Public Square to a one mile radius from Elyria's? Apples to apples would be determining a standard for what qualities constitute a "downtown" and applying them to various cities consistently.
October 18, 200717 yr The brookings institute report did include a wider footprint. My numbers don't include everyone in the justice center. Ok, so using the footprint you provided and the 2000 census, I came up with around 6,000 people downtown in 2000: Census Tract 1071, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 2,914 Census Tract 1072, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 373 Census Tract 1073, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 40 Census Tract 1074, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 8 Census Tract 1076, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 74 Census Tract 1077, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 523 Census Tract 1078, Cuyahoga County, Ohio 2,027 Total 5959 There are parts of other tracts in the footprint, so I'm rounding up to 6,000. 4,000 more people in 7 years is pretty impressive growth, if you ask me, even assuming that the census counts people in the Justice Center. Does anyone know how many more housing units are projected for downtown by 2010? By numbers alone, I'd guess that we'll reach 12,000 or 13,000 people, but housing would be more telling.
October 19, 200717 yr I think it's impossible to find out how many residents are downtown, just like its impossible to know the exact population of the City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga county. The census definitely needs to be challenged. I feel we're getting the short end of the stick!
October 19, 200717 yr Not really. Some downtowns are larger in area than others. Would it be fair to compare population of a 1 mile radius from Cleveland's Public Square to a one mile radius from Elyria's? Apples to apples would be determining a standard for what qualities constitute a "downtown" and applying them to various cities consistently. Sounds like another closet Form-based code fan. This type of a code would replace current zoning codes and essentially create a more business friendly environment that is based around the design of buildings and how they relate to different transects of the built environment. Check this out: http://www.dpz.com/transect.aspx This image also illustrates how it works quite well...you identify different portions of your specific built form (so Elyria's would look different from Cleveland but would be representative of their built form). After you identify the different transects you then create standards for each one and identify the which areas, in your city, fit into which transect. Essentially it is a much more organic/natural way to plan than the current wacked out zoning codes we have.
November 28, 200816 yr Any updated numbers based on the 2007 estimates? I can't find anything for Cleveland, and NEOCANDO, which otherwise is a great source of data, unfortunately only offers population estimates at the city level.
November 29, 200816 yr ... and factor in the obvious... Covington and Newport are natural extentions of downtown and would be considered so anywhere else. Look at London or Paris. The river doesn't divide them. Cincy is blessed to have such diversity in such a compact area.
November 29, 200816 yr ... and factor in the obvious... Covington and Newport are natural extentions of downtown and would be considered so anywhere else. Look at London or Paris. The river doesn't divide them. Cincy is blessed to have such diversity in such a compact area. IF newport and covington were in OHIO, then it wouldn't be an issue, so the london or Paris comparison doesn't fit here.
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