It's hard to say. Some people in Cincy frequent Mainstrauss and Newport On The Levee and some people in Kentucky work and play in Cincy but they usually have family/work ties to the other side. To some degree, it is a psychological boundary even though the people in COV and Newport aren't really different from the people in Mt. Adams or Prospect Hill.

Some people living in NOKY and working in Cincy isn't even a question. Look at I75, 71, 275, and 471 SB during rush hour, plus DT is the regions largest employment center with Uptown being the second.

Some people living in NOKY and working in Cincy isn't even a question. Look at I75, 71, 275, and 471 SB during rush hour

 

Yeah, people trying to get to Anderson quicker from downtown by going through KY!

The psychological boundary exists in where people choose to live and how they identify themselves. But as far as economically and socially, Cincinnati and NKY are much more integrated than some people imagine.

i believe i read the ohio river is a little over a mile across in cinci. so that's approx double the width of the thames in london and of course more than that of the seine in paris.

i believe i read the ohio river is a little over a mile across in cinci. so that's approx double the width of the thames in london and of course more than that of the seine in paris.

 

If it is a mile wide, I would be shocked.  But I have been shocked before.  Regardless, the Ohio is a much larger barrier between DT and Cov/New. than the Seine or Thames, regardless of how much wider it is than those.  The barrier could be better handled with stronger connections (hey, we do have the PP Bridge though), etc. but I am not seeing this happen soon. 

0.64 at the suspension bridge

newport/covington/downtown cincy are quite integrated via the many bridges.  Not EVERY person moves throughout the three areas on a consistent basis, but enough do that you can count them together. 

Also, I cross the river at least once a week more often four or five times a week.  It is absolutely NOT a mile wide.  It is pretty wide at Louisville, but not cincy.  I will set my odometer when i cross the suspension bridge later tonight, and report back how many tenths of a mile it is.

Roebling Bridge main span 1057 ft

Roebling Bridge total length 2253 ft (not all over water)

 

Source: http://en.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?ID=s0000513

A mile wide? Manhattan is only about 2 miles wide!

I just drove it.  It was between 3 and 4 tenths of a mile depending how much of the banks you include.  So, I'd say that cincy-covington-newport are pretty connected.

>Radius

 

I think it has to be a contiguous walkable area to be considered part of a "downtown", and very few people make that walk across the river routinely for a reason other than exercise.  I think the height of the bridges along with their awkward meetings with city streets is a big turn-off. 

 

The longest bridge I'm aware of that attracts a ton of pedestrian traffic is the Harvard Bridge which carries Massachusetts Ave. across the Charles River between Boston and Cambridge.  It's about 2,000ft. long but it's totally level (no climb whatsoever because it's across a tidal basin with no shipping), connects MIT with a very dense section of Boston, and there is no parallel subway service.

 

   

>Cincinnati's downtown sits far back from the river due to empty mud holes

 

It sits back from the river because it sits on a geologic anomaly -- a roughly one square mile bump above the flood plain.  It's only 20 feet higher than the flood plain but has kept the central business district from ever being flooded, whereas the riverfront has been flooded many times in the city's history, most recently in 1997.  Over-the-Rhine is also on this bump which is why it attracted somewhat better quality buildings and people than the various other basin neighborhoods (most of which no longer exist).  The neighboring villages (Columbia, 4 miles upstream at the mouth of the Little Miami and North Bend, about 8 downstream at the Great Miami [and eventually the exact border of Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky]) also settled in 1788 were flooded in 1789 and so the US Army decided to build its fort for the region in Cincinnati that year.  That's why Cincinnati became the location of the region's major city, not Columbia or North Bend or any point along the river for 100 miles.         

 

 

>I doubt hardly anyone walks that on a regular basis outside of exercise.

 

The NKY river cities are like German Village, Italian Village, and Victorian Village but even more than that.  Definitely some of the best preserved 100% walkable urban neighborhoods in America.  There is a ton of walking in these cities but not much walking across the river.  There's probably more day-to-day walking going on and more corner stores in the NKY river cities than the entire state of Florida.   

The business district never flooded? I thought I saw pictures of it flooded all throughout, some time in the early 20th century.

 

>Radius

 

I think it has to be a contiguous walkable area to be considered part of a "downtown", and very few people make that walk across the river routinely for a reason other than exercise. I think the height of the bridges along with their awkward meetings with city streets is a big turn-off.  

 

The longest bridge I'm aware of that attracts a ton of pedestrian traffic is the Harvard Bridge which carries Massachusetts Ave. across the Charles River between Boston and Cambridge. It's about 2,000ft. long but it's totally level (no climb whatsoever because it's across a tidal basin with no shipping), connects MIT with a very dense section of Boston, and there is no parallel subway service.

 

 

 

IDK Chicago has a river but it's still counted as all of downtown on both sides of the Chicago river.

^

That is very recent.

 

Historically the main stem and south branch of the Chicago River pretty much defined most of the original plat of the city, which was further intesified via the Loop elevated railroad.  Through most of the 20th century the Loop defined downtown Chicago, and was the local shorthand slang for downtown.

 

Directly on the north bank of the river were shipping things, grain elevators and loft buildings.  North of the river was mostly residential and later industrial lofts (more to the west and northwest). 

 

Starting in the 1920s North Michigan Avenue (formerly Pine Street) became sort of a "Park Avenue" or "Fifth Avenue" extension of downtown. The Michigan Avenue bridge was built and the street widened (but preserving the Water Tower). Almost like NYC with "downtown" and "midtown"...where midtown became a new downtown. 

 

This area really took off after WWII though, to were it became a true northerward extension of downtown, with substantial high-rise construction.  I think it was mostly in the 1960s when downtown really extended westward across the south branch toward Halsted Street via air rights construction over the Union Station terminal tracks, although the first mover was the Daily News building from either the early 1930s or late 1920s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff, there actually isn't that much office space north of the river, though that is starting to change a bit.  It is mostly residential, hotel, and entertainment.  The real office boom has been the West Loop along Wacker and beyond.  There's almost perpetually a 1.5 million square footer going up in that area.  The draw: proximity to the main commuter rail stations.  I think the preference for locations close to the commuter stations vs. the L shows an interesting shift.

 

Chicago's CBD has over 100 million square feet of office space. But there are many other uses as well. I read somewhere that about 200,000 people go to school in downtown Chicago.  There are many, many colleges there - DePaul, Northwestern, U of C, SAIC, Harrington, Columbia College, Roosevelt, Harold Washington College, and many more - I'm constantly discovering schools I'd never heard of before.

 

There are also huge amounts of tourists of course, and an increasing number of residents.  These things give downtown Chicago a life its office base could never sustain.

 

The business district never flooded? I thought I saw pictures of it flooded all throughout, some time in the early 20th century.

 

 

I didn't research this...just from memory:

 

Corner of Butler and Pearl (can't read it?)  200 block of Butler was in Bucktown, right?  Mouth of Deer Creek?  Not on the mound that 5th and Vine is on but 20' lower.

Butler & Pearl would have been roughly where the L&N's old ramp was:

 

The 1937 Flood...the CBD stayed dry:

 

The 1997 flood illustrates it a little better, but don't be confused that there is a levee or flood wall keeping the CBD dry, it's that it's higher:

 

Chicago River is more of a creek than river. It's not comparable at all to the Ohio River and is much easier for pedestrians to cross. The Ohio River is not messing around (as evidenced in above photos).

 

Its considerably wider than a creek, but it is easier to cross.

 

Great flood pix, JMeck

 

 

I just drove it.  It was between 3 and 4 tenths of a mile depending how much of the banks you include.  So, I'd say that cincy-covington-newport are pretty connected.

 

i got that info here, it was all i could find. it seems reasonable:

 

Between Pittsburgh and Wheeling, West Virginia, the river averages 0.5 miles in width; between Cincinnati, Ohio, and Louisville, 1.1 miles; and from Louisville to Cairo, 1.3 miles.

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/ohio-river

So ... anyone run across updated population numbers?

Cincinnati 2007

Central Business District (roughly bounded by Central Pwky, I-75, Ohio River, I-71):

• 3,818 residents
  
• 65,000+ employees
  
• 327 retail/restaurants
  
• 41 arts/entertainment venues

 

Greater Downtown (includes Over-the-Rhine, City West, Betts-Longworth, Adams Landing and Riverside Drive):

• 8,162 residents

 

Source: http://downtowncincinnati.com/files/uploaded/StateofDowntown_2007.pdf

The Dispatch not too long ago stated downtown Columbus having 130,000 downtown workers (it was an article about City Center's closing and revamping that area).

Cincinnati 2007

Central Business District (roughly bounded by Central Pwky, I-75, Ohio River, I-71):

• 3,818 residents
  
• 65,000+ employees
  
• 327 retail/restaurants
  
• 41 arts/entertainment venues

 

Greater Downtown (includes Over-the-Rhine, City West, Betts-Longworth, Adams Landing and Riverside Drive):

• 8,162 residents

 

Source: http://downtowncincinnati.com/files/uploaded/StateofDowntown_2007.pdf

 

that figure can't include all of OTR

What's the best guess for downtown Cincy's 2008 numbers? With the ongoing development I'm sure it will go up, I just don't know if we should expect an increase of 10 or 1,000....

Cincinnati 2007

Central Business District (roughly bounded by Central Pwky, I-75, Ohio River, I-71):

• 3,818 residents
  
• 65,000+ employees
  
• 327 retail/restaurants
  
• 41 arts/entertainment venues

 

Greater Downtown (includes Over-the-Rhine, City West, Betts-Longworth, Adams Landing and Riverside Drive):

• 8,162 residents

 

Source: http://downtowncincinnati.com/files/uploaded/StateofDowntown_2007.pdf

 

that figure can't include all of OTR

 

Both numbers look low to me.  There is no way all of OTR is included in the Greater Downtown numbers.  I also thought that the CBD had between 4000 and 4500 residents.  That's the number I've heard from the president of the DRC.

At the same time, the State of Downtown info is usually spot-on. Maybe the 4000-4500 reflects an '08 increase? Who knows.

Cincinnati 2007

Central Business District (roughly bounded by Central Pwky, I-75, Ohio River, I-71):

• 3,818 residents
  
• 65,000+ employees
  
• 327 retail/restaurants
  
• 41 arts/entertainment venues

 

Greater Downtown (includes Over-the-Rhine, City West, Betts-Longworth, Adams Landing and Riverside Drive):

• 8,162 residents

 

Source: http://downtowncincinnati.com/files/uploaded/StateofDowntown_2007.pdf

 

that figure can't include all of OTR

 

Both numbers look low to me.  There is no way all of OTR is included in the Greater Downtown numbers.  I also thought that the CBD had between 4000 and 4500 residents.  That's the number I've heard from the president of the DRC.

 

Yeah those don't seem right. I read that downtown has 200k workers, or at least 200k people during peak hours. I suppose it makes sense to only include parts of OTR that are walking distance to the CBD but that figure is extremely low. Also, an argument could be made that if you include City West you should include Mt. Adams. It's pretty far from the center of the CBD.

As for those numbers I'm just reporting what Downtown Cincinnati Inc. reported in their 2007 State of Downtown Report.  You will definitely see an increase in both the CBD and Greater Downtown numbers in 2008 as several projects came online during this period.  I couldn't begin to even make a legitimate guess though.

 

Also, an argument could be made that if you include City West you should include Mt. Adams. It's pretty far from the center of the CBD.

 

City West is easily walkable to Fountain Square (the center of the CBD)...Mt. Adams is not.

I used to walk to mt adams all the time from downtown. It's quicker than walking to city west from downtown.

I used to walk to mt adams all the time from downtown. It's quicker than walking to city west from downtown.

 

You can get to City West in roughly 11 city blocks that is level terrain.  Mt. Adams is about 7 city blocks (distance wise) with a large hill that you have to climb.  I'm measuring from Fountain Square.

 

For comparison...The Ascent in Covington is about 11 city blocks away with a large river and an unpleasant built environment to walk about.  Newport on the Levee is about 12-13 blocks away with the same river and a pretty comparable built environment along the riverfront (although slightly better).

I'm just saying... really, how do we even know where we should draw the line? I suppose commuting patterns and method of transportation for getting downtown should be a factor but I doubt they go through that much trouble to do the study.

 

I highly doubt Columbus has a higher downtown workforce and they definitely have a smaller downtown population. Some would easily count German Village and The Arena District as part of downtown but that doesn't really make sense to me.

I've always likened Cincy and NKY's relationship to that of Manhattan and Brookyln/Jersey but on a smaller scale. Seperate municipalities not easily accessed from the primary urban core but still part of the same large metropolitan region.

 

I think we should charge the KYians something like a toll fee to enter into OH before they come to work everyday to pay for the Brent Spence. ;)

 

 

 

 

... Ooops, forgot the wink.

I used to walk to mt adams all the time from downtown. It's quicker than walking to city west from downtown.

 

You can get to City West in roughly 11 city blocks that is level terrain. Mt. Adams is about 7 city blocks (distance wise) with a large hill that you have to climb. I'm measuring from Fountain Square.

 

For comparison...The Ascent in Covington is about 11 city blocks away with a large river and an unpleasant built environment to walk about. Newport on the Levee is about 12-13 blocks away with the same river and a pretty comparable built environment along the riverfront (although slightly better).

 

I really find the walk to Covington to be incredibly easy.  It's nice and scenic to walk over the Suspension Bridge, and it's only empty for like two blocks on the Cincy side which will hopefully be reduced to 0 when (if?) the Banks ever comes along.

they need to make it more pedestrain friendly on the covington side, but I like that route too

I've always likened Cincy and NKY's relationship to that of Manhattan and Brookyln/Jersey but on a smaller scale. Seperate municipalities not easily accessed from the primary urban core but still part of the same large metropolitan region.

 

I've always thought of it that way too.

brooklyn is part of new york

I highly doubt Columbus has a higher downtown workforce and they definitely have a smaller downtown population. Some would easily count German Village and The Arena District as part of downtown but that doesn't really make sense to me.

 

Remember, Columbus has a LOT of state office workers + Nationwide Complex of Terror + throw in Huntington Bank and other useless companys and *Bam*, lots of people.  Though I agree that it definately has a lower downtown living population than Cincinnati.

I highly doubt Columbus has a higher downtown workforce and they definitely have a smaller downtown population. Some would easily count German Village and The Arena District as part of downtown but that doesn't really make sense to me.

 

 

Remember, Columbus has a LOT of state office workers + Nationwide Complex of Terror + throw in Huntington Bank and other useless companys and *Bam*, lots of people. Though I agree that it definately has a lower downtown living population than Cincinnati.

 

 

I agree about the worker's part, but until recently Downtown Cincinnati claimed they had 90k to 100k downtown workers, then someone actually counted them and it turned out to be 65k. If you look at the most recent State of downtown, there is a footnote that basically says "we've been overestimating this number for a while." Is the same thing going on in columbus, maybe.

 

But look at it this way, tower place food court is slammed every day at lunch and city center mall is an incredible ghost town.  that may be due to the fact that columbus' downtown is more spread out

 

why charge ky-ians to cross????? 

doesnt ky pay for most of the bridges to begin with??????

But look at it this way, tower place food court is slammed every day at lunch and city center mall is an incredible ghost town.  that may be due to the fact that columbus' downtown is more spread out

 

That must be the case. To be fair, downtown Columbus is incredibly huge, geographically. It's about a little over a mile x 1.5 miles when you include parts of Franklinton that offer COSI, Veterans Memorial, and Mt. Carmel hospital, which all have a big economic impact on the city. Downtown Cincinnati is about a mile x half of a mile.

 

If you go to Broad and High on a weekday afternoon, it's still doesn't seem to be as packed as Fountain Square or 4th street even though it's a mecca for downtown government workers, journalists, lobbyists, bankers, etc. Perhaps the narrow streets in Cincinnati change perception. Columbus' downtown is much more open. Also, Columbus' skyscrapers are generally much taller and hold more office space. There's just more gaps (parking lots) between the buildings.

why charge ky-ians to cross?????

doesnt ky pay for most of the bridges to begin with??????

 

Yep, that's my point. It's a brilliant idea, but also followed by a wink to symbolize my seriousness.

Columbus also tends to be more self-sustaining buildings than a cohesive downtown like Cincinnati.  For example, the Nationwide complex has massive parking garages and it is quite unlikely those folks will be going down to Capitol Square for lunch as they have the Galleria and the Arena District.  AEP has their own garage/mini-city, the state workers all go wherever and are spread out all over downtown, blah blah.

I wish CSU had its dorms up already before census day to include all those college kids. Also the census will have some general data, like total population counts by region, available by April of 2011.

 

Cincinnati 2007

Central Business District (roughly bounded by Central Pwky, I-75, Ohio River, I-71):

• 3,818 residents
  
• 65,000+ employees
  
• 327 retail/restaurants
  
• 41 arts/entertainment venues

 

Greater Downtown (includes Over-the-Rhine, City West, Betts-Longworth, Adams Landing and Riverside Drive):

• 8,162 residents

 

Source: http://downtowncincinnati.com/files/uploaded/StateofDowntown_2007.pdf

 

From 2007 to present Cincinnati has built 827 residential units in DT/OTR and there are 425 under construction at present with about 1200 in pre-development.

Not strictly relevant but there is have also been $264 million in completed projects since 2007, $1.3 billion in projects currently underway and $909 million in pre-development.

^ Damn.

I took the time to visit this thread on SSP to find the numbers for Ohio's five largest downtowns. 

 

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138

 

Of course, I did not add Over-the-Rhine, Oregon District, The Flats, the Short North/German Village, or Vistula to any of the numbers.  Just strictly "downtown" to folks.

 

Here are the results:

 

Cincinnati:

 

Census Tract 6, Hamilton County, Ohio [Riverfront]: 550

Census Tract 7, Hamilton County, Ohio [CBD West]: 2,639

Census Tract 4, Hamilton County, Ohio [Garfield Place]: 1,114

Census Tract 11, Hamilton County, Ohio [Lytle Park]: 1,141

Census Tract 12, Hamilton County, Ohio [CBD East]: 530

 

Total: 5,974

 

________________________________________________

 

 

Cleveland:

 

Census Tract 1071, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [Warehouse District]: 2,914

Census Tract 1072, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [Galleria]: 373

Census Tract 1073, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [CBD East]: 70

Census Tract 1075, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [CBD]: 184

Census Tract 1076, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [WD South]: 74

Census Tract 1077, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [Public Square]: 523

Census Tract 1078, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [Cleveland State]: 2,027

Census Tract 1079, Cuyahoga County, Ohio [Cleveland State]: 2,268

 

Total: 8,433

 

________________________________________________

 

 

Columbus:

 

Census Tract 40, Franklin County, Ohio [Civic Center]: 2,195

Census Tract 30, Franklin County, Ohio [Downtown North]: 2,179

Census Tract 32, Franklin County, Ohio [Arena District] : 1,824

 

Total: 6,198

 

________________________________________________

 

 

Dayton:

 

Census Tract 15, Montgomery County, Ohio [CBD]: 2,129

Census Tract 21, Montgomery County, Ohio [Webster Station]: 3,969

 

Total: 5,098

 

 

________________________________________________

 

 

Toledo:

 

Census Tract 28, Lucas County, Ohio [CBD]: 1,147

Census Tract 37, Lucas County, Ohio [Erie Street Market]: 1,588

Census Tract 38, Lucas County, Ohio [Riverfront]: 773

 

Total: 3,508

 

____________________________________

 

 

In all, Ohio didn't do that bad compared to "peer" states.  To put it into perspective, San Jose, California (the state's third largest city...suburb) has a smaller downtown population than Toledo.

is this 2000 census data?