July 12, 201014 yr Yes. It will definately change when the next Census shows up. Particularly for Columbus. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 12, 201014 yr what is the size of these census tracts (meaning square mileage)? are they all uniform or standardized -- as i am assuming? or do they vary in size?
July 12, 201014 yr ^Excellent question. Also, does anyone have comparable data for other cities outside of Ohio?
July 12, 201014 yr I think KJP or The Mayor have posted more recent information. Cleveland is definitely over 10k
July 12, 201014 yr Cleveland's will be interesting with the creations of E.4th Street, 668 Euclid Ave, CSU Collegetown, and the new condos/townhomes.
July 12, 201014 yr I have some data on the census tracts that Portland's Seattle's and Tacoma's streetcars pass directly through- Tract Population Portland 48 2722 Portland 49 3038 Portland 50 690 Portland 51 3612 Portland 53 2034 Portland 56 3753 Total 15849 Tract # Tract Population Seattle 72 3084 Seattle 66 2954 Seattle 67 5369 Seattle 73 2218 Seattle 81 3477 Seattle 82 2875 Total 19977 Tract # Tract Population Tacoma 602 887 Tacoma 616.01 1398 Tacoma 616.02 639 Total 2924
July 12, 201014 yr What's wrong with the West Bank of the Flats in Cleveland? I feel it's just as apart of Downtown as CSU.
July 12, 201014 yr I think KJP or The Mayor have posted more recent information. Cleveland is definitely over 10k This may sound odd, but does the population include incarcerations? I remember reading (and I know its not greatly credible) a debate in the forum on Cleveland Dot Com about such numbers including those in jail. I just skimmed through it with not much interest, but is this true?
July 12, 201014 yr I suppose, but then I'd might as well add the Oregon District, lower Short North, Over-the-Rhine/Pendleton/Mt. Adams, and Vistula and that'd just get tricky. CDawg is right, the downtowns vary by land area. You can look up the Census tracts used on that website I gave. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 12, 201014 yr i wasnt talking about downtown areas i was asking about the census tracts. after looking it up im still not sure, best i found out was that census block groups are made up of 39 census blocks, but what does any of it mean if there is no uniformity? help am i missing something?!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_tract http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_block_group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_block anyway, i followed the directions on ssp and so below are the ohio downtowns. note - the 7 square mile view didnt look right at all so for uniformity i used the 2.8 mile choice for all downtowns (those were the only 2 choices allowed): cleveland cincinnati columbus dayton toledo
July 12, 201014 yr Gracias for the maps! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 13, 201014 yr I suppose, but then I'd might as well add the Oregon District, lower Short North, Over-the-Rhine/Pendleton/Mt. Adams, and Vistula and that'd just get tricky. I guess what I'm saying is that I would consider the Flats more part of Downtown Cleveland than Cleveland State...although, by 2011, that area will probably have about 5,500+ residents... I'll stop, CSU gives a good chunk to Downtown Cleveland numbers.
July 13, 201014 yr I was gonna say...I can take out CSU and add the Flats but... ;) "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 13, 201014 yr does it really matter what we "think" or "consider"? It's what the boundaries are. Isn't the west bank a part of Ohio City? If yes, this is a moot point. Haven't we had this discussion a thousand times before?
July 13, 201014 yr When people ask where I live, I'm going to begin saying, "Census tract 1077". Back of the envelope calculation- 1077 should have tripled in population between 2000-2010.
July 13, 201014 yr Why would they consider Cincinnati's Downtown to be so much of a smaller area than others? Is it's just because that's the way the city wants it or what? OTR? Pendleton? Mt. Adams?
July 13, 201014 yr ^ good question. which leads me to -- maybe all the tracts within these 2.8 mile boxes should be counted equally to have a fair playing field? but even then we'd end up with partial tracts, water zones and other argument-worthy messiness...ha - who knew this would be so complicated?!
July 13, 201014 yr OTR is part of Downtown, in my opinion. It's only become a separate entity because if its historic district status and many decades of disinvestment.
July 13, 201014 yr The problem is that there does not seem to be a uniform standard for what constitutes a "downtown". Here's how Brookings described it in their 2005 report "Who Lives Downtown": Deriving a spatial definition of “downtown” is the most challenging aspect of this research because no commonly accepted physical standard exists. Some equate downtowns with the Central Business District (CBD). (For several decades, in fact, the U.S. Census Bureau issued CBD data, simply designating one or two census tracts in selected cities. However, it discontinued this series in 1984.) Others have attempted to define downtowns as the area within a specified radius (1 mile, _ mile, etc.) from a city’s so-called 100 percent corner, viewed as the highest valued intersection in terms of real estate. This concept poses difficulties with its uniform application to different-sized cities—among some of the physically smaller of the top 100 most populous cities, one-half mile from the 100 percent corner can reach into its suburbs. In the end, local knowledge and experience, asking public officials in the sample cities to define their own downtowns by census tracts as of 1999/2000, was used. http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/reports/2005/11downtownredevelopment_birch/20051115_Birch.pdf Using those "local definitions", Brookings reported Cleveland's 2000 downtown population as 9,599, Columbus' as 6,198 and Cincy's as 3,189 (Toledo and Dayton were not included in the study). So it seems like it just depends on who is doing the research and what standard they're using to define "downtown". The other interesting problem you face is that census tracts don't fit neatly with the dividers people often use to describe downtown (e.g. mountains, bodies of water, highways, etc.). In Cleveland, for instance, this means you can't include the west bank of the Flats without including a huge chunk of Ohio City, you can't include the men's shelter unless you include a lot of St. Clair Superior and you can't include the Quadrangle unless you include several blocks in Asiatown. The result is that I'm a "downtown resident" in Asiatown but someone living at 2100 Lakeside, a mile closer to Public Square, is not (although I don't think temporary residences get counted either, do they?). The only way to avoid this is to tabulate the data at the block group or block level, which seems like it would be pretty tedious.
July 13, 201014 yr i like what the census is offering de facto -- the 7 mile or better yet 2.8 mile dt census tract maps as seen above. at least those 2.8 miles are a uniform standard in the messiness of trying to do this. first just count up all the residents in the full tracts. then yeah you would then have to take the time to break it down further and count block groups or blocks for the cutoff tracts, but it can be done. i am pretty sure that is just as easy to do from the ssp link as it is to get the tracts...err, should someone be so inclined - lol!
July 14, 201014 yr It's not tedious to tabulate blocks or block groups with GIS! God, I wish I had my own copy of ArcInfo!
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up.
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage.
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. It's just population data... not a liveliness index.
July 14, 201014 yr When people ask where I live, I'm going to begin saying, "Census tract 1077". Back of the envelope calculation- 1077 should have tripled in population between 2000-2010. by my calculations there have been aproximately 690 residential units added to this census tract since 200, or approximately 1,035 residents. So yes... almost exactly trippled.
July 14, 201014 yr Keep in mind that: a. They're using footprints that some people question. For instance, their definition of Cincy's downtown, based on the definition of local public officials was very small and doesn't include several census tracts that people would like to see there. b. Their definition of growth is based on how quickly their defined "downtowns" were growing between 1990 and 2000. During this period, they showed 32.2% growth in Cleveland, 0.6% growth in Columbus and a 16.9% decline in Cincy. But Cleveland's growth is still replacing residents that have been lost in the past (as of 2000, there were only a couple hundred residents more than there were in 1970, and the downtown population was still smaller than it was in 1940 and 1950). I would expect that all three cities will fare well for the period 2000 - 2010.
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. It's just population data... not a liveliness index. Liveliness = People
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! No, of course, Cleveland is the most vibrant (agreeing with Brookings "emerging" status.
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! No, of course, Cleveland is the most vibrant (agreeing with Brookings "emerging" status. Emerging status from 1990? What is this, the Drew Carey Show?!?! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! No, of course, Cleveland is the most vibrant (agreeing with Brookings "emerging" status. Emerging status from 1990? What is this, the Drew Carey Show?!?! No, it's the popular show about Columbus, or was it Dayton. I forget the name.?.?
July 14, 201014 yr ^ are you insinuating that downtown cleveland is not vibrant? lol! alright people, somebody lets getting to counting block groups...!
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! No, of course, Cleveland is the most vibrant (agreeing with Brookings "emerging" status. Emerging status from 1990? What is this, the Drew Carey Show?!?! No, it's the popular show about Columbus, or was it Dayton. I forget the name.?.? Nice try, Betty White. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr He is a legend! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr ^^ The Brookings Institution data recorded highest and lowest tract median income for downtown populations, which I'm not sure is a terribly useful statistic. City Low Tract High MSA City Cincinnati 17,721 35,278 44,248 29,493 Cleveland 6,336 50,568 42,089 25,928 Columbus 16,636 29,864 44,782 37,897 I think this is based on the 2000 data. Interesting that the study claims that Cincinnati is declining when it clearly posted population growth between 1990-2000. I also note that it appears that Cleveland never had a burgeoning downtown population, at least in 1970, which kind of jives with my theory that since the turn of the 20th century, it took on a significantly suburban character with the aid of streetcars. It would be interesting to see downtown population numbers from the earliest days.
July 14, 201014 yr This may sound odd, but does the population include incarcerations? I remember reading (and I know its not greatly credible) a debate in the forum on Cleveland Dot Com about such numbers including those in jail. I just skimmed through it with not much interest, but is this true? Yes, it's true. Cuyahoga County's Census Tract 1071 [Warehouse District] includes those incarcerated at the Cuyahoga County Jail in the Justice Center, north of St. Clair between West 3rd and Ontario. If I recall correctly, as many as 2,000 residents of Census Tract 1071's population of 2,914 were inmates in 2000. How many other downtowns (either in Ohio or elsewhere that we're using for comparisons) have large jails in their downtown areas? If it's alot, then we're using an apple-to-apples comparison. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 14, 201014 yr From the Brookings report: "Downtowns in the sample cities with high proportions of prisoners are: Pittsburgh (34 percent), Cleveland (23 percent), Indianapolis (23 percent), San Antonio (22 percent), Charlotte (16 percent), Milwaukee (12 percent)." Interestingly enough, Pittsburgh's downtown growth would be 5% instead of 26% when controlling for the increase in the incarcerated population. I wish this report had provided the raw data from which they drew. They only highlight the highest/lowest ranking cities in each category.
July 14, 201014 yr From the Brookings report: "Downtowns in the sample cities with high proportions of prisoners are: Pittsburgh (34 percent), Cleveland (23 percent), Indianapolis (23 percent), San Antonio (22 percent), Charlotte (16 percent), Milwaukee (12 percent)." Interestingly enough, Pittsburgh's downtown growth would be 5% instead of 26% when controlling for the increase in the incarcerated population. I wish this report had provided the raw data from which they drew. They only highlight the highest/lowest ranking cities in each category. Again, what are the boundaries of "Downtown" and is that sq. milage consistent/equivalent across each city? I have a hard time understanding that nearly ¼ of Downtown Cleveland residents are incarcerated.
July 14, 201014 yr This may sound odd, but does the population include incarcerations? I remember reading (and I know its not greatly credible) a debate in the forum on Cleveland Dot Com about such numbers including those in jail. I just skimmed through it with not much interest, but is this true? Yes, it's true. Cuyahoga County's Census Tract 1071 [Warehouse District] includes those incarcerated at the Cuyahoga County Jail in the Justice Center, north of St. Clair between West 3rd and Ontario. If I recall correctly, as many as 2,000 residents of Census Tract 1071's population of 2,914 were inmates in 2000. How many other downtowns (either in Ohio or elsewhere that we're using for comparisons) have large jails in their downtown areas? If it's alot, then we're using an apple-to-apples comparison. Don't all of them? Cincinnati, Columbus, and Dayton all do. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr From the Brookings report: "Downtowns in the sample cities with high proportions of prisoners are: Pittsburgh (34 percent), Cleveland (23 percent), Indianapolis (23 percent), San Antonio (22 percent), Charlotte (16 percent), Milwaukee (12 percent)." Interestingly enough, Pittsburgh's downtown growth would be 5% instead of 26% when controlling for the increase in the incarcerated population. I wish this report had provided the raw data from which they drew. They only highlight the highest/lowest ranking cities in each category. Again, what are the boundaries of "Downtown" and is that sq. milage consistent/equivalent across each city? I have a hard time understanding that nearly ¼ of Downtown Cleveland residents are incarcerated. I beleive that was 10 years ago tho and don't forget alot of NEW residential space has been populated in the past 10 years. Also, In a separate study, tho I dont have the link, Brookings singled-out CLE and a couple other cities as places where downtown populations were expected to rise considerably. If I recall, the geographic constraints of downtown CLE are fairly small due to the nayural and man-made boarders (river, lake, inner-belt).
July 14, 201014 yr Again, what are the boundaries of "Downtown" and is that sq. milage consistent/equivalent across each city? Apparently the study admitted defeat and simply asked local leaders to identify and tabulate population data from whatever they decided was their CBD. ColDayMan's estimate of the CBD population earlier in the thread seems to be fair to at least Cincinnati and Cleveland, if not Columbus. I have a hard time understanding that nearly ¼ of Downtown Cleveland residents are incarcerated. This might be closer to the truth than we want to think. According to the Sheriff's Office, the average daily population of the Justice Center correctional facility is 1,850, which interestingly enough seems to imply overcrowding if the facility capacity (since 1999) is 1749. (See link http://sheriff.cuyahogacounty.us/center.asp) Using the Brookings data, and assuming the jail was operating at capacity in 2000, we land at an inmate population of 19% of downtown. This number should probably go down considerably as of this year's census, considering they have not added any new cells since 2000. We're not in the same boat as Pittsburgh when it comes to inmate population growth, though. The Corrections Center has added 894 beds since 1994, which knocks "real" downtown growth rate from 32.2% to 19.9% from 1990-2000.
July 14, 201014 yr Dizzamn. That's a lot of felons! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 14, 201014 yr And even more knuckleheads that are incarcerated for something (less than a felony) which they would have recieved a slap on the wrist for if they had shown up to their court date. I do find it hard to believe that the WHD, as it stands now, only has 900 residents on top of the jails. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems awfully low.
July 14, 201014 yr And even more knuckleheads that are incarcerated for something (less than a felony) which they would have recieved a slap on the wrist for if they had shown up to their court date. I do find it hard to believe that the WHD, as it stands now, only has 900 residents on top of the jails. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems awfully low. I imagine it is, as this data is a decade old. I recall hearing somewhere that 1,000 people live on W. 9th alone, so the totals for the entire WHD should be much higher.
July 14, 201014 yr ^ Sure is. IIRC, the both the Bingham and 701 Lakeside were completed around 2005, and they have about 350 and 80 units, respectively. Account for double-occupancy in most and you end up with about 800 extra residents in those two projects alone. I wonder if the census people have been sampling the tract? When can we expect them to finally tabulate the 2010 data?
July 14, 201014 yr It's interesting that on page 15, Brookings refers to CLE as an "emerging" downtown (with respect to population) and CHM as "slow-growth, and CVG as "declining". I though they were all on the way up. If you go to each of the three (C's) downtown's (Toledo's DT actually feels more alive than two of the C's), it's easy to see which is growing and which is not.. I, personally, don't need Brookings to state the obvious, nor someone on UO to massage data and maps to make the numbers work to their advantage. Are you insinuating that downtown Cleveland and Columbus feel less vibrant than downtown Toledo?!?! No, of course, Cleveland is the most vibrant (agreeing with Brookings "emerging" status. I'm not sure how one measures vibrancy, but Cincinnati's downtown has things going on almost every night of the week on Fountain Square. Many new restaurants and clubs have opened recently, and many more are planned. The Banks development on the riverfront is adding many new restaurants, stores, and residents, and work continues in Over the Rhine, with the streetcar promising even more development. I don't doubt that Cleveland has also grown, but it's quite a claim to say that Cincinnati is less vibrant than even Toledo. Of course, with King James leaving, I thought all of downtown Cleveland was supposed to become a ghosttown :-o :lol:
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