And here goes the pissing contest.  I don't understand why everything in Ohio has to be a competition.  Each of our cities cores growing is great.  We will see great growth over this next decade and that is thrilling.

 

I don't believe this is a pissing match, I am not familiar with the boundaries of Downtown Cinci, so I was asking because in other reports they have stated their population around 5k, now its 13k.  Atleast this estimate gives boundaries and breaks down the CBD and the adjoining downtown neighborhoods.  Based on some comments this number may have caught some cinci folks off guard.

 

Look at page 11 -- ColDayMan added the Census Tracts up and got a figure above 13,000. 

 

Really? As of page 10, his figure for downtown Cincy was 5,657 ... He included OTR after the fact as a courtesy ... So not surprising where the 13,000 comes from but surprising that OTR is being included :)

 

Regardless of what each city's respective borders are, I'm actually more interested that civic leaders in Cincy tend to go with a population total that generously extends population estimates beyond traditional CBD boundaries to include OTR, while in Cleveland, our civic leaders tend to undercount our downtown population below what the Census shows for our traditional CBD. Two very different approaches, and I like Cincy's better :D In Cleveland, it seems like we've always got some advocacy for cutting the West Flats, the Campus District or the prison population.

 

For all of the 3 Cs, I'd argue that it's less important where we count but that we count in the same places in 2020 that we're counting now that we counted in 2010.

 

 

 

Love the unnecessary snark.  Yes, he added the OTR total after request--and came up with a total for Downtown that includes the CBD, OTR, and Pendleton, which is, you know, what we're talking about here and what DCI used in its annual report. 

So for more accurate numbers, I got

 

Cleveland - 7,217

Cincinnati - 4,221

Columbus - 5,546

And for Cincinnati with their 5,657 downtown population. Remove the 1,436 prisoners and you get down to 4,221. Im not familiar enough with Cincinnati to remove and homeless shelter if they exist downtown like I did with Cleveland.

 

Well here's the crux of the whole issue--are you defining "downtown" to include the CBD?  Or do you define downtown to include those areas that are considered "downtown" by most Cincinnatians, which goes beyond the CBD? 

Cincinnati also has "Uptown" which consists of several neighborhoods around the university, hospitals, and the zoo. It's actually a pretty big area, much bigger than downtown.

 

Some of you seem to think it's weird we use the term downtown for more than the CBD, but think about NYC/Manhattan where downtown, midtown, and uptown refer to many neighborhoods.

I know that Cincinnati's CBD has been defined by boundaries that create a very small .8 square miles ( it is specifically the financial district only).  Even with OTR and Pendleton we are looking at a total area of only about 2 square miles, still compact boundaries relative to many cities.

Anyone know where to find the land areas of Ohio's CBDs?

Anyone know where to find the land areas of Ohio's CBDs?

 

The area I described on the previous page is probably a little north of 1 square mile

 

 

Cincinnati also has "Uptown" which consists of several neighborhoods around the university, hospitals, and the zoo. It's actually a pretty big area, much bigger than downtown.

 

Some of you seem to think it's weird we use the term downtown for more than the CBD, but think about NYC/Manhattan where downtown, midtown, and uptown refer to many neighborhoods.

 

My "Downtown Cleveland" has several neighborhoods as well.  The Flats, the Warehouse District, Gateway, Playhouse Square, the financial district to name a few. 

 

 

I met a woman from Loveland yesterday with a group of people.  I told her I was from Cincinnati, she said, "like downtown?" and I said yes.  In Cincinnati circles, downtown is anywhere from the CBD to Avondale or Northside.

I can see why OTR would be included in Downtown Cinci's population. When I lived there I considered basically everything at the base of that Hill on Vine Street Downtown, then everything between 71 and 75.

 

For Cleveland I consider everything East of the Cuyahoga, South of Lake Erie and North/West of the Innerbelt to be downtown.

ditto

I can see why OTR would be included in Downtown Cinci's population. When I lived there I considered basically everything at the base of that Hill on Vine Street Downtown, then everything between 71 and 75.

 

For Cleveland I consider everything East of the Cuyahoga, South of Lake Erie and North/West of the Innerbelt to be downtown.

 

Why don't you guys include the West bank of the Flats as "downtown"?  It's more "downtown" than Ohio City.  I've considered the WB downtown.  When it's marketed to live in, it's marketed as "downtown" not Ohio City.

^Two reasons for me.

 

1. Its highly disconnected from Downtown and and not very walkable. You can walk, but its a very disconnected one.

2. The majority of the West Bank's population is from Lakeview Terrace, which I definitely do not consider to be downtown.

 

Also I dont consider Ohio City to be downtown either, and I dont consider the west bank as part of Ohio City. I view the West Bank as its own neighborhood.

That's like saying Camp Washington, Northside and Riverside in Cincinnati is part of downtown.

Why not compare just the CBD's (which is downtown without question)? Obviously OTR and the West Bank are not part of the CBD's.

Why not compare just the CBD's (which is downtown without question)? Obviously OTR and the West Bank are not part of the CBD's.

 

Then "Downtown" should be switched with "CBD" in the thread title.

 

I think discussion about the borders is interesting. And it's relevant to the thread topic since you have to know borders to talk population. Why do you need it to be so black and white?

Downtown Cincy is the part btw Central Parkway and the river.  OTR isnt really downtown.  Its a close-in neighborhood, like the Oregon is in Dayton.

 

So if you want to do a pop count keep the boundary as Central Parkway.

^Black and White or Apples to Apples makes for an easier comparison. You can see how everyone's arbitrary describtions of downtown make an exact comparison almost impossible.

 

MTS, West bank is too disconnected by the River. I don't consider Ohio City downtown either.

Why not compare just the CBD's (which is downtown without question)? Obviously OTR and the West Bank are not part of the CBD's.

 

Then "Downtown" should be switched with "CBD" in the thread title.

 

I think discussion about the borders is interesting. And it's relevant to the thread topic since you have to know borders to talk population. Why do you need it to be so black and white?

Because it is a fair comparison. Picking and choosing certain areas and excluding others isn't. It would also be interesting to see these numbers. I'm not saying that the discussion about borders isn't interesting or relevent.

^Black and White or Apples to Apples makes for an easier comparison. You can see how everyone's arbitrary describtions of downtown make an exact comparison almost impossible.

 

MTS, West bank is too disconnected by the River. I don't consider Ohio City downtown either.

 

I dont consider Ohio City or Tremont Downtown, but I would consider the West Bank.  Like you and others have said, everyone has different boundaries to downtown CLE.  I guess we need to settle on one.  lol

I drove through OTR a few months back.  I didn't get a "downtown" feeling at all.  It is a bordering neighborhood, like Ohio City, Asiatown, Tremont and several of the comparables around Columbus.  Whether Cincy folks call it "downtown" due to the geography or just routine habit is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread IMO.  I'm sure there are many suburbanites in Cleveland who would refer to the above neighborhoods as "Downtown"........ some might even refer to University Circle and Midtown as Downtown given the geography.  I know several out of town guests have asked if we were "downtown" while driving through University Circle, but that is understandable because it does have somewhat of a downtown feel with the taller buildings and bustling activity.

Here is how I feel.

 

Cleveland:

 

1. Ohio City and Tremont cannot be called downtown. Single family wooden framed houses do not scream downtown to anyone. They arent even that high of density.

 

2. The West Bank is a highly disconnect walk away from downtown and across the river. The residences are up the hill while the bottom of the hill is all parking lots. And most of the population is Lakeview Terrace which I doubt anyone besides 19 action news thinks of as Downtown.

 

3. Asiatown is way to far disconnected and on the other side of the highway.

 

4. Cleveland State is downtown in my eyes. It would be hard to stand on Euclid Avenue over there and not feel like you are downtown.

 

Cincinnati:

Over the Rhine is partially downtown in my mind. Denser, more active areas definitely feel like downtown to me.

 

1. Like Vine Street and west 13th. Standing at that intersection feels like your downtown in my opinion.

 

2. York Street and Dayton Street on the other hand, definitely doest seem like downtown to me and shouldn't be counted. Nor should the West End.

 

3. Basically anything west of West Central doesn't feel like downtown and shouldn't be counted in my opinion.

 

4. The Heart of OTR could easily be counted in my opinion.

 

5. On the other hand, I could easily see downtown as anything south of Central.

 

This has been discussed previously but due to such arbitrary boundaries, one of the best ways for consistent comparisons would be to simply identify intervals of land area working out from the center of the city.  For example, what is the population at 1 square mile, or 2 square miles, etc.  For any Ohio (or almost any not named Chicago or NYC) downtown getting beyond 4 square miles would probably be irrelevant as that would clearly go beyond what anyone could realistically consider or call downtown.

I think Cleveland has a very clearly defined downtown.  River, lake, freeway.

 

I think Cleveland has a very clearly defined downtown.  River, lake, freeway.

 

Agree. 

 

 

 

Why not compare just the CBD's (which is downtown without question)? Obviously OTR and the West Bank are not part of the CBD's.

 

Then "Downtown" should be switched with "CBD" in the thread title.

 

I think discussion about the borders is interesting. And it's relevant to the thread topic since you have to know borders to talk population. Why do you need it to be so black and white?

Because it is a fair comparison. Picking and choosing certain areas and excluding others isn't. It would also be interesting to see these numbers. I'm not saying that the discussion about borders isn't interesting or relevent.

 

Right, but we can do both. We can easily compare CBD numbers. But also include other, more colorful comparisons. And we can do intracity comparisons (i.e. if we include XYZ or XYW, this is how the numbers look). Why not allow the broader focus?

Here is a good start I think. Just zoom in to see the borders.

 

http://g.co/maps/q6rts

 

I generally thought of "downtown" Cleveland as E. 30th to W. 25th, until I realized that I was nearly alone in that thinking.

Then I see Noodlecat's carry-out menu one day and its "downtown delivery zone" is E. 30th to W. 25th streets. I thought  'alright' Jonathon Sawyer is good company.

Actually, many businesses/retail have an interpretation of downtown that may be different.

 

I generally thought of "downtown" Cleveland as E. 30th to W. 25th, until I realized that I was nearly alone in that thinking.

Then I see Noodlecat's carry-out menu one day and its "downtown delivery zone" is E. 30th to W. 25th streets. I thought  'alright' Jonathon Sawyer is good company.

Actually, many businesses/retail have an interpretation of downtown that may be different.

 

I've always thought the east boundary being east 30 street, from Broadway to the Lake.

This has been discussed previously but due to such arbitrary boundaries, one of the best ways for consistent comparisons would be to simply identify intervals of land area working out from the center of the city.  For example, what is the population at 1 square mile, or 2 square miles, etc.  For any Ohio (or almost any not named Chicago or NYC) downtown getting beyond 4 square miles would probably be irrelevant as that would clearly go beyond what anyone could realistically consider or call downtown.

 

I like this. If you're not doing a strictly CBD population, this would be the best way to compare. What's the population "X" miles out. That way you could compare basically any city.

Here is a good start I think. Just zoom in to see the borders.

 

http://g.co/maps/q6rts

 

Hahaha, you're going to exclude the riverfront from Cincinnati's downtown?

^ Check again I gave you the riverfront. Only makes things look worse for Cincinnati though. I was giving it the best downtown core that I knew.

 

And you could have been a bit cooler about it. I said it was just a start, and wanted to atleast get something concrete going.

 

And even if you dont like my original borders, atleast it gives you a basic idea of how many people live inside a certain area.

I just thought it was funny because the river is obviously where the center of activity was historically -- the raison d'etre for there even being a downtown/city. Your old lines also actually cut through buildings on the southeast side of town, where I-71 is tunneled under Lytle Park.

 

How are you calculating the population numbers, inclusion of census block centroids? From 2010?

CO - I don't see why the Lakefront should be excluded for Cleveland.  The Port, the RRHOF, the GLSC and CBS are all "downtown" even if there is no residential there (yet) and its inclusion would consequently cause the density numbers to drop.  If you are going to include the FEB, than the Lakefront has to be included as well.  JMO.

I did try the "compare same area idea" a while back.  It's not really fair to Cleveland because of the lake.

 

I started with what I guessed might be considered the central point of each city's downtown and went out the following distances from there.  Using census blocks (for Columbus block groups) that have their center within the certain distance, here is what I found.

 

I know some of the populations include jails and such, I haven't tried to remove these.  Obviously, some of Cleveland's numbers are lower because of the lake, so this isn't really a fair comparison for them in some ways.  I did include Kentucky in Cincinnati's totals, where applicable.  Because I used block groups for C-bus, those numbers are not quite as good as the others, but certainly in the ballpark.

 

 

It's not really fair to Cleveland because of the lake.

 

And the Industrial Valley.  From Downtown, Cleveland really only stretches East and West.  To the north is all water and to the south is the Industrial Valley.  Actually, there is a big industrial zone to the East as well (going out towards E55th).  Cincy has some similar issues to the East (due to flood zone?) where it looks rural just a few miles outside of downtown Cincy.

Here is a good start I think. Just zoom in to see the borders.

 

http://g.co/maps/q6rts

 

Ive updated the map.

 

Ive added parts of OTR and did city totals for what is calculated.

Report on Cincinnati's downtown population:

 

In 2011 the estimated downtown residential population was more than 13,000, showing a 12 percent increase over the previous year.  This was from the 8th annual "State of Downtown Report" released by DCI.

 

You can read the article in: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/05/15/report-downtown-cincinnati-population.html

 

The report actually said it was estimated at 13,214.

Report on Cincinnati's downtown population:

 

In 2011 the estimated downtown residential population was more than 13,000, showing a 12 percent increase over the previous year.  This was from the 8th annual "State of Downtown Report" released by DCI.

 

You can read the article in: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/05/15/report-downtown-cincinnati-population.html

 

The report actually said it was estimated at 13,214.

 

Um yeah...this is what we're discussing, you're 3 days late to the party!.  LOL  LOL  You gotta post fast and keep up, here on UO!  LOL

 

omg Kimmy Z looks flawless there her wig is on point

I collected a bunch of numbers based on census tracts and recently came up with a bunch of graphs showing trends for 3 different areas for each city.  The 1950 Boundaries, the Greater Downtown Area and the Central Business District only.

 

First, the 1950 Boundary population through 2010, followed by the decade population change.

 

 

Next, I looked at all the census tracts that made up the 1950 boundaries.  The next 3 charts show each city's total tracts that made up the boundaries by decade, along with the # of tracts that had growing population vs that total by year.  The last graph is the % of the total tracts growing by year.

 

 

Next is, based on how the tract populations are trending, what each city's 1950 boundaries might look like in 2020 and beyond. 

Now for the Greater Downtown Area.  Here are the tracts I used for each:

 

Cincinnati: 2, 9, 10, 11, 263, 264, 265, 268

Cleveland: 1033, 1036, 1042, 1071, 1077, 1078, 1082, 1083, 1084

Columbus: 21, 22, 29, 30, 36, 38, 40, 42, 52, 53, 57

 

I'm sure not everyone will agree with these, but yeah...

 

First, the overall population and change since 1950 and a projection out to 2020, again based on trends.

 

 

Finally, here is the CBD alone.

 

First, the population and change since 1950.  This is followed by a breakdown of this population and change by the tracts that make up the CBD of each city.

 

A note about Cincinnati's tracts is that #4 and #6 were combined into #265 after 2000.

 

 

Cool stats.

 

Thanks for posting.

I don't exactly know what you're trying to find here but I think I would only go back to 1970. There were changes taking place after WWII but those changes were pretty much done by 1970 & the people calling the shots shifted from one generation to another about that time.

That group is on the way out & should be done around 2020 but an extrapolation that only goes out 7 years seems kinda pointless. Going out to 2030 seems to make more sense & will show the direction of the newer decision/trend makers.

but waht do I know?

I don't exactly know what you're trying to find here but I think I would only go back to 1970. There were changes taking place after WWII but those changes were pretty much done by 1970 & the people calling the shots shifted from one generation to another about that time.

That group is on the way out & should be done around 2020 but an extrapolation that only goes out 7 years seems kinda pointless. Going out to 2030 seems to make more sense & will show the direction of the newer decision/trend makers.

but waht do I know?

 

I started with 1950 for a couple of reasons.  1950 was the census that most city populations reached their peak, so I wanted to measure how they had changed since then.  1950 was also the last real census before the suburban sprawl explosion, so the 1950 area represents the real urban core of the 3-Cs. 

 

I only projected out to the 2020 or 2030 because those are census years, and because the numbers are measuring the change from 2010, not 2013.  The 2020 projections are probably going to be much closer to reality than the 2030 numbers, anyway.

These are great.

awesome data, thank you for your hard work.

Very interesting. I'm going to take some second and third looks at these numbers to see if I spot more possible trends and even some conclusions beyond the obvious one -- That the waves of depopulation that have been spreading out from each city's geographic center (the CBD) for many decades is now being followed by a brand-new wave of re-population (again, starting from the CBD). It hasn't spread outward very far yet, but hopefully it will continue and will lead to net population gains and economic growth for the more heavily urbanized, pre-1950 3Cs.

 

This is a great analysis and data--thank you.  One thing that stood out to me was that CLE was hardest hit of the three (from almost 1MM population to 300k-something) yet is doing the best in downtown growth.

 

Regarding the Census tracks in the downtowns, is there a quick reference somewhere that shows the boundaries of each of these?---particularly interesting was CLE 1071 which shows a tremendous rate of increase (around 800% since 1970).

 

I started with 1950 for a couple of reasons.  1950 was the census that most city populations reached their peak, so I wanted to measure how they had changed since then.  1950 was also the last real census before the suburban sprawl explosion, so the 1950 area represents the real urban core of the 3-Cs. 

 

I agree with this thinking!