Not sure if this the right thread, but I discovered some PDFs of proposed city plans from the early 1900s. Crazy to think the banks could've been like this if they didn't go all freeway crazy in the late 1940s. These are from 1939:

1 hour ago, RealAdamP said:

some PDFs of proposed city plans from the early 1900s

Those plans are interesting, and I like the strict adherence to symmetry in Plate VI and VII... but from an urbanist perspective, I'm not loving any of these drawings. They all seem extremely "car-centric", in the model of Robert Moses "parkways". Look at how much space is dedicated to wide street, parking, and huge looping circles. These designs definitely wanted to give primacy to the automobile. 

 

I was looking at some photos from the early '90s, and it's just stunning how pedestrian hostile everything south of 3rd street was. The new layout is so much better. Even though we have work remaining to fill in some missing blocks in The Banks, I'm so happy with the new street layout, even if it takes a generation to build up completely. 

2 hours ago, RealAdamP said:

 

Not sure if this the right thread, but I discovered some PDFs of proposed city plans from the early 1900s. Crazy to think the banks could've been like this if they didn't go all freeway crazy in the late 1940s. These are from 1939:

 

 

Lol, they snuck a little Corbusier in at the end.

1 minute ago, zsnyder said:

a little Corbusier

a little? That's pure, unadulterated tower in park, surely inspired by Corbusier!

I meant a little in relation to the proposals as a whole. That being said, it hardly approaches Radiant City proportions. It's merely a nod to it.

26 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

They all seem extremely "car-centric", in the model of Robert Moses "parkways". Look at how much space is dedicated to wide street, parking, and huge looping circles. These designs definitely wanted to give primacy to the automobile. 

 

This study spent a good amount going over the ongoing flooding that was affecting the banks during that period. Another study in 1946 shows that there was a drop in land value near the riverfront since it kept flooding. 

 

Closing statements from the 1939 and the other plates:

 

 

 

Plate III is very interesting, and shows how the planners wanted to acquire right of way to make 3rd Street into a larger capacity "flood-free" route. Makes sense that flooding was the main concern for the planners. The planners can't be faulted for not being able to envision a massive, underground structure to raise several blocks out of the flood plain and up to the same elevation as 3rd Street. As a result, their plans basically ceded everything south of 3rd to parks/parking. 

Here's the 1946 map of flooding. Everything south of Third was a swimming pool quite frequently.

 

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by RealAdamP
I forgot the map...

7 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Plate III is very interesting, and shows how the planners wanted to acquire right of way to make 3rd Street into a larger capacity "flood-free" route. Makes sense that flooding was the main concern for the planners. The planners can't be faulted for not being able to envision a massive, underground structure to raise several blocks out of the flood plain and up to the same elevation as 3rd Street. As a result, their plans basically ceded everything south of 3rd to parks/parking. 

 

Here's the text for it:

 

Quote

 

PLATE III

 

This plate shows (1) a flood-free route from Columbia Avenue at the base of Mt. Adams to the high land west of Mill Creek, and (2) routes for separate circulation of heavy industrial truck traffic. Both routes involve numerous changes from existing conditions. Traffic congestion arises principally at points of inter section. Congestion is accentuated when the interference involves both small, light, passenger vehicles and large, heavy trucks. The provision of a connection from the intersection of Eighth and Linn Streets to Third and John Streets would produce a by-pass for passenger vehicles using the Eighth Street Viaduct from points west of Mill Creek around the central business district, and as a col lector for traffic from Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Streets seeking to move west to the Mill Creek Valley viaduct. Plates IV, V and VI show in detail the manner in which it is proposed to expand the now badly congested right-of-way of Third Street. The plan set forth on Plate III indicated the construction of a viaduct over Eggleston Avenue on the line of Third Street from Butler Street to a point in the existing Columbia Avenue structure east of Ellen Street as the logical route for vehicles from the east section of the city to and from existing or future parking garages along Third Street. Al though the Fifth Street Viaduct connection to Columbia Avenue brings traffic from the east to an important retail store and office building street, it is not physic ally possible to park all such vehicles along the curb line of Fifth Street and, therefore, at the present time, most vehicles must turn out of Fifth Street to reach a garage. By reason of the high value of Fifth Street property it is not anticipated that any considerable amount of garage cubage will be found profitable along Fifth Street, and, therefore, in order to solve the problem of loading and unloading the automobile flow in and out of the central business district, a good Third Street approach is essential. In accordance with the line indications on Plate III it is proposed to widen Third Street between Butler Street and the connection to Eighth and Linn Streets west of Central Avenue as shown on succeeding plates. At the present time, much of the traffic bound for points on Lower River Road, Elberon Avenue and Warsaw Avenue is forced to use the same highways that serve the industrial development south of Seventh Street and west of Baymiller Street or south of Fourth Street east of Baymiller Street. The provision of a diagonal connection from Third and John Streets to Linn and Eighth Streets will provide a natural feeder street for all vehicular traffic destined west of the Mill Creek Valley and originating on all streets between Third and Eighth Street. To improve the routes followed by vehicles carrying heavy loads it has been suggested on Plate III that Eggleston Avenue be continued south of Pearl Street to Front Street, thereby taking advantage of the existing grade separation at the L. & N. Bridge. The extension of Third Street westwardly from Baymiller to Front Street would relieve the present congestion at the intersections of Bay miller Street with Fifth and Sixth Streets and greatly reduce the number of turning movements in this area. Heavily loaded vehicles originating in the central bot toms district and destined for points in Price Hill ordinarily proceed either to Eighth Street east of Mill Creek or over Evans Street in which case they must pass through the congested intersection of State Avenue and Eighth Street. The present condition at the intersection of Fifth, Front and Freeman is not conducive of free operation of truck traffic. Accordingly, a new diagonal street is recommended to be cut from the inter section of Sixth Street and Freeman Avenue south-eastwardly to the point at which Third Street would intersect with Front Street if Third Street be produced west to Front Street. As set forth in previous reports to the Commission, the placing of a viaduct between the intersections of English Street with Riverside Drive and Elberon Avenue with Maryland Avenue will eliminate the heaviest grade between the Mill Creek Valley and Price Hill, materially enhancing the value of the Sixth Street crossing of Mill Creek and thereby relieving the existing pressure on the State-Eighth inter section.

 

 

These are fascinating.  Thanks for posting. 

Yes. Love this stuff. Thanks for posting!

 

Layout for tonight. Really curious how we're fitting 8k into this space. 

 

2 hours ago, tonyt3524 said:

Really curious how we're fitting 8k into this space. 

Did anybody (Foo Foo Fighters, the Icon) officially confirm how many tickets were sold? I know earlier news articles mentioned that the outdoor stage/field has a capacity of 8,000, but I took that number to be a "preliminary estimate."

12 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Did anybody (Foo Foo Fighters, the Icon) officially confirm how many tickets were sold? I know earlier news articles mentioned that the outdoor stage/field has a capacity of 8,000, but I took that number to be a "preliminary estimate."

Im curious about the total as well, the lawn does seem a bit small for 8,000, we shall see tonight tho!

26 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Im curious about the total as well, the lawn does seem a bit small for 8,000, we shall see tonight tho!

I was just walking by the river about an hour ago, they are warming up and sound checking now. You can hear them clear as day as far back as the Roebling bridge 

Those small trees don't stand a chance. It's going to be tight.

2 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

Beautiful! The concert calendar at ICON is stacked, great for The Banks

3 hours ago, tonyt3524 said:

Layout for tonight. Really curious how we're fitting 8k into this space. 

 

 

Are they putting temporary concessions and bathrooms on Mehring Way, meaning that the street will need to be closed down every time there is a concert?

Not sure if this has been asked or answered but is that lighter green grass FieldTurf/artificail? 

5 minutes ago, Rabbit Hash said:

Not sure if this has been asked or answered but is that lighter green grass FieldTurf/artificail? 

Yes

As anticipated, it was a little cramped. I could tell there were a lot of people without a decent view (normal I suppose?). We managed to land a good spot right at the start of the hill. I think the venue did a wonderful job from start to finish, especially with it being the first event. Foo Fighters crushed it as expected as well. Venue is pretty sweet!

 

17 hours ago, taestell said:

 

Are they putting temporary concessions and bathrooms on Mehring Way, meaning that the street will need to be closed down every time there is a concert?

 

Mehring is down a level from the lawn - the concessions and bathrooms were up on the same level as the lawn, in the strip of pavers at the rear.

REVIEW: Foo Fighters performance in Cincinnati was solid. New Icon Music Center? Needs work.

Chris Varias Special to Cincinnati Enquirer

 

 

The Foo Fighters show Wednesday night was a civic achievement and a pandemic milestone: the first concert at a brand-new riverfront venue, and a sold-out one. Eight-thousand souls standing shoulder-to-shoulder at a rock show, as if it were 2019.

 

As for the concert experience? It wasn’t for everyone, literally speaking.

 

This wasn’t the fault of the Foo Fighters, who did their part by taking the stage at 8:36 p.m., omitting an encore break, and playing straight through and nonstop to the 11 o’clock curfew.

 

It’s just that not everyone could see the proceedings very well, or hear them well, either. Maybe they could smell them, though.

 

“This is a new place, right?” asked Foo Fighters frontman Dave Grohl. “It’s got that new-gig smell. It smells like plastic and weed.”

 

Cont

You can tell FF is a big act just by the fans. Nu-Metal guys next to hipsters next to Regular Guys next to Dad Rockers

I think the Icon Music Center and event lawn turned out great.  It's beautiful.  

 

My question is, how does this affect lot 24? (the block immediately to the north of the outdoor stage and south of GE/Radius)

 

It seems to me there would be noise issues with putting a big block of residential apartments, per the original plans, directly facing and abutting the outdoor concert area.  Would office use here avoid scheduling conflicts for allowing loud music?  

 

The outdoor concert area now has a great view of the Cincy skyline/Freedom Center that could be obscured by development to the north.  Normally I think say that shouldn't be a concern, but this venue will be hosting thousands and there is potential for the city to be an extra character in each concert experience.  Could you imagine having a "Live from Cincinnati" concert series from the outdoor stage on TV like Austin City Limits or something?

 

Race St seems to be at a higher elevation than Vine St bordering lot 24. There is an elevator on the Race Street side to get back up to street level from the concert lawn.  

 

My current thinking is a tall building could go on the Race St. side of lot 24 without obscuring much of the view.

 

Perhaps on the Vine Street side of lot 24 you could have a shorter building and/or even a plaza (triangle shaped to preserve sight lines from the venue?) facing Vine Street.  I actually think additional public space would be well used there (lots of foot traffic,) perhaps a hardscape in contrast to the surrounding lawns. Perhaps you could have outdoor market or shipping container/food truck food court there. Or an indoor festival hall people could access with seating and some market vendor/ food elements. This could be difficult to pull off without competing with Findlay Market, Court Street, even Newport on the Levee however.  Maybe you could do this and have a still have a hotel facing Freedom Way or something.

 

Lot 1 in between PBS and Radius would still be great for big apartment blocks.  I would put a new north-south running  street in the middle of this block to split it up however.  

 

 

47 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

It seems to me there would be noise issues with putting a big block of residential apartments, per the original plans, directly facing and abutting the outdoor concert area.  Would office use here avoid scheduling conflicts for allowing loud music?  

I'm pretty sure there would be a curfew for shows, most likely 11pm.  Maybe even earlier for weekdays.

2 hours ago, richNcincy said:

I'm pretty sure there would be a curfew for shows, most likely 11pm.  Maybe even earlier for weekdays.

That’s what I mean, would these rules be the same if there was an apartment building with windows overlooking the venue or would they have more flexibility with shows if there wasn’t. Like going to 11 on weekday night or kicking off a music festival early on Friday afternoon or something. 

lot 24 could become a great spot for an aquarium. a very contemporary style (not a popcorn cotton candy attraction). Seems to me, people aren't flocking to the banks as a neighborhood, rather a destination.  If it became a bigger destination maybe  more people using the street cars.

Jason Mraz had an outdoor concert on Friday, August 6th at The Icon, and the Red's did their typical "Friday night fireworks." I wasn't there, but I saw some photos and videos on Instagram. It's neat that the Red's fireworks are so easily visible from the Icon stage. I'm curious if concert-goers (and performers) found the sound of the fireworks annoying/distracting. I love when simultaneous events bring folks to the riverfront. Hopefully somebody captured high-quality photos of the concert with the fireworks in the distance. 

13 hours ago, RJohnson said:

lot 24 could become a great spot for an aquarium. a very contemporary style (not a popcorn cotton candy attraction). Seems to me, people aren't flocking to the banks as a neighborhood, rather a destination.  If it became a bigger destination maybe  more people using the street cars.

Is that really necessary if Newport aquarium fills that attraction need? 
 

I do agree that the banks is more of an entertainment destination. I still think that a Ferris wheel should be built, it looked so good in our skyline when it was there.

 

Aside from that, I do think a food hall - high end boutique grocery store like Dayton’s Dorthy Lane stores could work extremely well at the banks. 

Every neighborhood, including touristy ones and destination ones, needs residential density. Look around the country to the most successful places and they all have people living there. Businesses appreciate it because it means customers all the time, even when there are no events. And it makes the streetscape vibrant round the clock. So do what you have to do in regards to setbacks, sound proofing, viewsheds, etc. but the remaining lots need to have residential density incorporated one way or another.

If The Banks is just an entertainment district, it will be less resilient. If a major tenant closes or another jurisdiction tries to build a competitor, the whole thing could fall apart like a house of cards. A mixture of land uses reduces the odds of that happening.

We need more housing built downtown and there are lots still available for development at the banks.  Seems pretty simple to build more apartments and another hotel in some of the remaining space.  Not sure office space has a big demand right now, but it would be nice to get more workers in that area. The banks is a big destination area but that doesn't mean we shouldn't build more housing there. 

27 minutes ago, Dev said:

If The Banks is just an entertainment district, it will be less resilient. If a major tenant closes or another jurisdiction tries to build a competitor, the whole thing could fall apart like a house of cards. A mixture of land uses reduces the odds of that happening.

I mean the anchor tenants in this scenario are the Icon Music Center, Reds Stadium, Bengals Stadium, and the Freedom Center (to some extent) and maybe Smale Park (definitely popular with the families).

 

I don’t see much of those anchor tenants leaving (aside from maybe the bengals but even then that would open the door to do something with either the stadium or the lot it sits on. 

1 minute ago, Troeros2 said:

I mean the anchor tenants in this scenario are the Icon Music Center, Reds Stadium, Bengals Stadium, and the Freedom Center (to some extent) and maybe Smale Park (definitely popular with the families).

 

I don’t see much of those anchor tenants leaving (aside from maybe the bengals but even then that would open the door to do something with either the stadium or the lot it sits on. 

Yes they could leave for a suburb outside of Hamilton County, which would then be used as an anchor tenant to create a competing entertainment district.

If the Bengals leave (which they won't) they'd be going to another state, not another county.  No Cincy suburb county is going to build a new stadium for them. 

2 hours ago, jwulsin said:

 It's neat that the Red's fireworks are so easily visible from the Icon stage. I'm curious if concert-goers (and performers) found the sound of the fireworks annoying/distracting.

This happens at Bunbury during the Friday night headliner's performance. Probably doesn't impact the artists too much as its behind them. Does enhance the concertgoer's view though.

in my opinion the ferris wheel looked more like a county fair than a tourist attraction. so, if a ferris wheel is built. make it 400 feet tall. One 800 ft. tall apartment/condo would be a nice addition and still leave plenty of space for all kinds of entertainment. I don't think another 5 story apt building would attract people to live there. And, if an extraordinary aquarium was located at the banks, meaning something special in looks and uniqueness... something like an extension of the zoo that educates just how important the river, clean water, climate change and understanding of ecosystems is it may come in handy around 2030

6 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

I don't think another 5 story apt building would attract people to live there.

 

I mean... I think any building down there should be as tall as the market will allow, but why wouldn't people be attracted to live in a 5 story apartment building? Every new building built downtown gets leased up immediately. If they build more apartments at the Banks they will be filled quickly.

It has always bothered me to no end that the lot with the Yard house and the pink Sing the Queen City sign is slated to stay a vacant piece of grass.  Or maybe have the Ferris Wheel on it.  With the Freedom Center set back as far as it is from the road, and that lot empty, it creates this huge void between phase 1 of the Banks, and newer Phase 2 and 3.  If I remember correctly, The Freedom Center demanded a clear view of the River or something.  I always thought that was a ridiculous ask.  There are really only about 7 blocks that make up the Banks.  You can't just waste one like that.  They need to build to residential there with some 1st floor commercial and stitch either end of The Banks together.

I don't love that the space between Yard House and the other lot stays undeveloped, but it would really help if the two corners that mirror those spots on the Freedom Center's block would also get a 1 story bar/restaurant. There was a hot chicken place proposed there years ago, but there is just too much unused space on that block. The only thing I can think of in that whole area is a piece of the Berlin wall, but all four corners of Freedom way between Vine/Walnut could use some programming and life and currently we just have Yard House.

32 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

There was a hot chicken place proposed there years ago,

The proposed restaurant was "Doc Crow's Southern Smokehouse & Raw Bar" https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/11/19/the-banks-newest-restaurant-is-coming-to-an.html

 

There was also the proposal of housing a charter school at the Freedom Center, which would have also helped activate the space: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2015/10/could-a-charter-school-be-coming-to-the-banks.html 

 

The combination of a new restaurant AND the charter school would have done wonders to help activate that space. Not sure why both idea failed to come to fruition. 

 

 

Edited August 9, 20213 yr by jwulsin

Put an gondola lift station on the block with the grassy area and it automatically becomes a hub of activity. While still maintaining visual focus on the river. Perhaps you could even have the planned restaurant at the base of the station and call it “Cable House” or “Lift House” something 

https://cincinnatiideas.com/gondola-at-the-banks/

 

5 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I mean... I think any building down there should be as tall as the market will allow, but why wouldn't people be attracted to live in a 5 story apartment building? Every new building built downtown gets leased up immediately. If they build more apartments at the Banks they will be filled quickly.

seems to me, the skies' the limit. per you the market is allowing that if you build more apartments they will be filled quickly. its a win win

44 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

seems to me, the skies' the limit. per you the market is allowing that if you build more apartments they will be filled quickly. its a win win

 

Yea, access to capital is more of the limit than demand. A bank sees a 5 story building as safer than a 20 story building.

What if something like this became the next big thing to have in big cities. Aerial view of the Shanghai Astronomy Museum, the World’s largest astronomy museum, on July 11, 2021 in Shanghai, China. Photo by Xu Congjun/VCG via Getty Images. we would have a place to drop it at the banks. Restaurants, parking  and all the amenities just waiting for something knew to see.  

From The Banks master plan, the area between the current gravel lot and Yard House is meant to be a park. Here's a current rendering from their site. I think more mixed use on the banks is the way to go to get enough demand to start talking about capping the Fort Washington Way. 

That is what drives me crazy though.  We just built this huge massive beautiful wonderful smale riverfont park.  Its right there.  You don't need more park space in between The Yard House and that gravel lot.  You need some buildings that tie the east and west sides of the Bank together.

 

For that matter, The Schmidlapp event lawn and the proposed park space just south of the Icon are wastes as well.   I know they insist that Smale park extends north past Mehring way, but that is nonsense.  Mehring way is a wide street, and everything North of it is elevated on top of a parking garage.   Ask any normal person walking around down there where the park is and they will point South of Mehring way.   

 

I always though it was foolish to have Freedom Way be essentially the only East-West street.  Theodore M Bary Way should have extended from Race to Main, rather than just Vine (Rosa Parks) to Walnut (Marion Spencer).  Then you could have a full building where Schmidlapp event lawn is.  

 

Rant over,

47 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

That is what drives me crazy though.  We just built this huge massive beautiful wonderful smale riverfont park.  Its right there.  You don't need more park space in between The Yard House and that gravel lot.  You need some buildings that tie the east and west sides of the Bank together.

 

For that matter, The Schmidlapp event lawn and the proposed park space just south of the Icon are wastes as well.   I know they insist that Smale park extends north past Mehring way, but that is nonsense.  Mehring way is a wide street, and everything North of it is elevated on top of a parking garage.   Ask any normal person walking around down there where the park is and they will point South of Mehring way.   

 

I always though it was foolish to have Freedom Way be essentially the only East-West street.  Theodore M Bary Way should have extended from Race to Main, rather than just Vine (Rosa Parks) to Walnut (Marion Spencer).  Then you could have a full building where Schmidlapp event lawn is.  

 

Rant over,

Everything you said...EVERYTHING!