54 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Im kinda thinking the same thing, if they renovate this time around the casino will be about 30 years old in the 2030s? Maybe demolish for a new bengals stadium? Or Soccer really grows over the next 20 years and we see a new joint FCC - Bengals stadium? We are also forgetting about The Reds they are gonna be due one too lol.

 

The last few stadiums/arenas being built around the country are part of massive mixed-use developments that make more $ from the real estate than the stadium. The Bears are moving to Arlington Park in a few years and if the Bengals decided that they needed a new stadium, they'd be better served moving to West Chester or something and building a major mixed-use development. However, the stadium tax is permanent so the Brown family has no incentive to build anything on their own. 

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

The last few stadiums/arenas being built around the country are part of massive mixed-use developments that make more $ from the real estate than the stadium. The Bears are moving to Arlington Park in a few years and if the Bengals decided that they needed a new stadium, they'd be better served moving to West Chester or something and building a major mixed-use development. However, the stadium tax is permanent so the Brown family has no incentive to build anything on their own. 

 

I would expect, however, that they will seek increased control of surrounding land in their lease renegotiation. 

 

I could see them wanting the county to find them a new practice space so that they can develop residential/hotels in the large curved parking lot between the stadium and the river and use the existing practice field area for...parking.  

 

 

Bengals say they will help fund stadium upgrades, react to talk of dome, new facility

 

The Cincinnati Bengals will pay for a portion of the upgrades to Paycor Stadium, but the team is not interested in a new stadium or installing a roof over the existing one, an attorney for the team told the Business Courier.

 

The comments by Aaron Herzig, a Taft, Stettinius & Hollister attorney who represents the Bengals, came on Thursday, two days after Hamilton County commissioners had a wide-ranging discussion about potential upgrades to the stadium, impending lease negotiations with the team and what other cities are doing.

 

“We’re not asking for a new stadium, and we don’t think a new stadium needs to be part of the conversation. We don’t need a dome,” Herzig said. “We don’t think those make sense here. We need meaningful investment in (Paycor Stadium) starting now. That will save money in the long run. We think the reasonable approach is to upgrade and maintain Paycor Stadium.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/04/14/bengals-paycor-stadium-upgrades.html

 

This is the best news The Banks could get

What Crawford Hoying envisions for the Banks' future

 

The Banks has a new out-of-town owner, and they hope to make changes to the property that will create a more vibrant downtown Cincinnati destination used every day of the week.

 

Columbus-based commercial real estate firm Crawford Hoying purchased the Banks for $176.6 million in October 2022. The firm was drawn to the property for several reasons, Brent Crawford, principal and founder of Crawford Hoying, said.

Crawford Hoying has always had an affinity for downtown Cincinnati and had been looking for the right opportunity there for about 10 years. Crawford was born and raised in Batavia, and Bob Hoying, principal of the firm, is the grandson of Cincinnati Reds Hall of Famer Wally Post.

...

Crawford Hoying has heard interest for more entertainment opportunities at the Banks from the community. The firm is currently engaging in longer discussions and planning about what could attract people to the Banks aside from restaurants and bars.

 

“I think what the Banks is mainly known for is parties around the baseball games or football,” Crawford said. “How do we make it a place to go on a Tuesday night, when there’s not a game happening?”

 

Several parcels of undeveloped land remain around the riverfront corridor. It’s been suggested that a hotel or multifamily housing could be a good addition to land east of Paycor Stadium. A hotel is something Crawford could envision being a good idea to the Banks area, and he thinks it's essential to keep building up the area surrounding the Banks to create density and increased foot traffic.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/05/02/crawford-hoying-banks-plans.html

 

On 5/2/2023 at 4:02 PM, ColDayMan said:

This is the best news The Banks could get

What Crawford Hoying envisions for the Banks' future

 

The Banks has a new out-of-town owner, and they hope to make changes to the property that will create a more vibrant downtown Cincinnati destination used every day of the week.

 

Columbus-based commercial real estate firm Crawford Hoying purchased the Banks for $176.6 million in October 2022. The firm was drawn to the property for several reasons, Brent Crawford, principal and founder of Crawford Hoying, said.

Crawford Hoying has always had an affinity for downtown Cincinnati and had been looking for the right opportunity there for about 10 years. Crawford was born and raised in Batavia, and Bob Hoying, principal of the firm, is the grandson of Cincinnati Reds Hall of Famer Wally Post.

...

Crawford Hoying has heard interest for more entertainment opportunities at the Banks from the community. The firm is currently engaging in longer discussions and planning about what could attract people to the Banks aside from restaurants and bars.

 

“I think what the Banks is mainly known for is parties around the baseball games or football,” Crawford said. “How do we make it a place to go on a Tuesday night, when there’s not a game happening?”

 

Several parcels of undeveloped land remain around the riverfront corridor. It’s been suggested that a hotel or multifamily housing could be a good addition to land east of Paycor Stadium. A hotel is something Crawford could envision being a good idea to the Banks area, and he thinks it's essential to keep building up the area surrounding the Banks to create density and increased foot traffic.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/05/02/crawford-hoying-banks-plans.html

 

This has to be one of the most architecturally uninspired buildings ever. They need a "green wall" and a few murals at least.

On 4/13/2023 at 11:04 AM, jwulsin said:

I think a new stadium could fit, just barely (though I'm not sure what would happen to Mehring Way).

 

If the Bengals would be ok giving up the training fields entirely (they have the semi-permanent bubble now anyways), and the current stadium site is given back to the County/City to be redeveloped then I might be on board with that. The practice fields are so rarely used and are such a waste of prime space.

 

Does no one realize there's a ton of land left of the bridges?

16 hours ago, columbus17 said:

Does no one realize there's a ton of land left of the bridges?

I don't understand the point of your rhetorical question. Are you asking if people in Cincinnati are aware of the existence of Queensgate? You're correct that there is a "ton of land" in Queensgate. How easy will it be to redevelop that land is a much more complicated question! A lot the land is in the river's floodplain and/or already in an industrial use (UPS, Duke Energy, etc), and it's all separated by the spaghetti soup of the bridges/highways. Could some of that land be redeveloped and better connected to The Banks and downtown? Sure, but it won't be easy or cheap, and a lot depends on how the construction of the new bridge to the west of the Brent Spence Bridge impacts the area, for better or worse (sadly, I'm afraid that from Queensgate's perspective, it'll mostly be for the worse by making it feel even more distant from downtown). Your suggestion that "no one realizes" the land exists strikes me as misunderstanding why it hasn't been redeveloped already. 

On 2/16/2023 at 9:37 AM, 646empire said:

I think you may be right I’m told it’s The Reds who have leased the space.

And it’s official MGM + Nation Kitchen

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/06/21/reds-partner-with-nation-kitchen-for-sportsbook-at-the-banks/70327054007/

The black music walk of fame looks almost completely done and already has the video displays and music playing.

I just had a question. If the Bengals and Hamilton County decided to go with a new stadium. Would it be smart to build right next to Paycor Stadium on the west side of it and obviously tear down Paycor and then you could expand the Banks with mix use development 

I'm not sure a stadium would fit next to the current one, but if it could it would be a great spot for a new one.  I think there's little to no chance the Bengals are getting a new stadium though.  They'll agree to upgrades and push off a new stadium for another 15+ years. 

I'm pretty sure a stadium can't be built where the practice fields are.Underground utility issues

28 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

I'm not sure a stadium would fit next to the current one, but if it could it would be a great spot for a new one.  I think there's little to no chance the Bengals are getting a new stadium though.  They'll agree to upgrades and push off a new stadium for another 15+ years. 

Agreed.  I expect Nippert Stadium will be expanded at some point and the Bengals would just play there a season or two if a rebuild happens at the Banks in 15-20 years.  

Staffmark moves headquarters to GE’s Global Operations Center at the Banks

By Abby Miller  –  Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Jul 28, 2023

 

The nationwide staffing firm is moving its nearly 200 local employees to the Banks to be at the epicenter of activity in downtown Cincinnati.

 

MORE

Walked through the Black Music Hall of Fame. It's overall a nice addition to the banks. I just hope they can properly maintain all the cool interactive features. Each stand plays music from the artist inducted, there is interactive dance stations and an interactive Penny Ford Music video area. 

Cincinnati Enquirer chatted with the project executive for The Banks. The way the articles reads it sounds like he’s not really in a rush to complete any of the undeveloped lots (just my assumption). Says it would prolly take another 10 years to fully build out the rest of the lots and that the office tower is still on the table just isn’t sure how feasible it is now. 
 

Mentioned that more apartments and a hotel are what’s the most needed currently. Assuming that sort of development will be on the block east of Andrew J Brady. 
 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2023/08/01/what-is-the-banks-2-0-a-look-at-the-future-of-the-riverfront/70269915007/

 

14 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Cincinnati Enquirer chatted with the project executive for The Banks. The way the articles reads it sounds like he’s not really in a rush to complete any of the undeveloped lots (just my assumption). Says it would prolly take another 10 years to fully build out the rest of the lots and that the office tower is still on the table just isn’t sure how feasible it is now. 
 

Mentioned that more apartments and a hotel are what’s the most needed currently. Assuming that sort of development will be on the block east of Andrew J Brady. 
 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2023/08/01/what-is-the-banks-2-0-a-look-at-the-future-of-the-riverfront/70269915007/

 

I'm dumfounded by the city/county's handling of Lot 24 (the one next to Paycor and Brady). They released an RFP years ago, didn't award the site to anyone, and have proceeded to sit on a prime piece of urban land zoned and ready for a mixed use project during a housing crisis. Inevitably they will have to reissue the RFP and go through the whole selection process which will probably take a year. Every mid-large developer in the city would be happy to build apartments on this site today, and the government is just sitting on their hands. 

On 4/13/2023 at 12:47 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

The last few stadiums/arenas being built around the country are part of massive mixed-use developments that make more $ from the real estate than the stadium. The Bears are moving to Arlington Park in a few years and if the Bengals decided that they needed a new stadium, they'd be better served moving to West Chester or something and building a major mixed-use development. However, the stadium tax is permanent so the Brown family has no incentive to build anything on their own. 

I don’t at all think the bengals would be served better in West Chester/ Suburbs. The suburbs may work well in larger markets such as Chicago or how the Braves moved out in Atlanta, but smaller markets such as Cincy needs its Pro franchises in city center which is why for instance FCC didn’t opt for a location outside the city.

1 hour ago, dnymck said:

I'm dumfounded by the city/county's handling of Lot 24 (the one next to Paycor and Brady). They released an RFP years ago, didn't award the site to anyone, and have proceeded to sit on a prime piece of urban land zoned and ready for a mixed use project during a housing crisis. Inevitably they will have to reissue the RFP and go through the whole selection process which will probably take a year. Every mid-large developer in the city would be happy to build apartments on this site today, and the government is just sitting on their hands. 

I honestly think the money is just starting to dry up. Construction costs are too high.

2 hours ago, dnymck said:

I'm dumfounded by the city/county's handling of Lot 24 (the one next to Paycor and Brady). They released an RFP years ago, didn't award the site to anyone, and have proceeded to sit on a prime piece of urban land zoned and ready for a mixed use project during a housing crisis. Inevitably they will have to reissue the RFP and go through the whole selection process which will probably take a year. Every mid-large developer in the city would be happy to build apartments on this site today, and the government is just sitting on their hands. 

Crawford Hoying from Columbus is actually looking at the lot now to develop it out. Everything is still very much behind closed doors, but they are a reputable developer that has the potential to do something great. 

Everything west of Elm will be demolished north of Paycor for Brent Spence so the west of Elm will likely need to wait on the reconfigured interchange to be completed 5-7 years out.

Question: what kind of use can be on the south facing side of lot 24, now that it directly fronts the outdoor music venue? Would Residential or hotel be incompatible with the concerts and volume levels? 

15 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Question: what kind of use can be on the south facing side of lot 24, now that it directly fronts the outdoor music venue? Would Residential or hotel be incompatible with the concerts and volume levels? 

I've stayed in Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans and many other cities in hotels right next to the venues I was going to see a show in and usually it's a younger target audience hotel, like a Moxy or Aloft and the venue has a certain curfew. The Moxy in Columbus has a rooftop club that plays extremely loud dance music until like 1am every weekend night. I don't think the occasional outdoor concert is going to be a big issue especially since the stage and speakers are blasting music towards the river not towards the Banks. 

In addition, I imagine they target the proposal towards a younger audience as well.  Last I recall "micro-apartments" were proposed for that lot, which is perfect for the just out of college entry-level crowd. Hopefully they stick with micro-apartments for that lot.

Yeah, I mean realistically if you are moving into an apartment, or booking a hotel, that is in the city's main entertainment district between two major league stadiums and a music venue you should kind of know what you're getting yourself into but unlike some cities everything should cut off right at 11pm anyway. It's not like New Orleans where they can play music and serve alcohol 24/7. 

Edited August 3, 20231 yr by ucgrady

12 hours ago, GHOST TRACKS said:

Everything west of Elm will be demolished north of Paycor for Brent Spence so the west of Elm will likely need to wait on the reconfigured interchange to be completed 5-7 years out.

Do you mean west of Central Ave?  Because they're not demolishing what's between Central and Elm. 

I think they are referring to Lot 13, the wedge shaped one between 2nd, Elm and Paycor Stadium because the 2nd street/ FWW ramps will be redone with the Brent Spence project. 

 

Lot 24, 25 and Lot 1 should all be developed ASAP. 

Edited August 3, 20231 yr by ucgrady

It appears the 180 Walnut vacant pad was sold for $2.5M to Royal Walnut, LLC. Which has an address for Lincoln Property Company out of Dallas TX. 

 

https://lpcretail.com/ 

 

On 8/3/2023 at 9:50 AM, ucgrady said:

Yeah, I mean realistically if you are moving into an apartment, or booking a hotel, that is in the city's main entertainment district between two major league stadiums and a music venue you should kind of know what you're getting yourself into but unlike some cities everything should cut off right at 11pm anyway. It's not like New Orleans where they can play music and serve alcohol 24/7. 

 

The other thing about the French Quarter is that very few people actually live there. Like 3,000 total in the entire neighborhood and less than 1,000 in the part that's really loud and party central 24/7.

2 hours ago, wjh said:

It appears the 180 Walnut vacant pad was sold for $2.5M to Royal Walnut, LLC. Which has an address for Lincoln Property Company out of Dallas TX. 

 

https://lpcretail.com/ 

 

Really hope this project gets back on track. Soon. Need more cranes downtown in 2024 including convention hotel.

There seems to be a need for more Class A office space.

 

2 minutes ago, jvarney1 said:

Really hope this project gets back on track. Soon. Need more cranes downtown in 2024 including convention hotel.

There seems to be a need for more Class A office space.

 

Would prefer to see the W&S building go first if that would happen. 

It is also good that this is an out of state developer. They likely have different sources of funding and know different possible tenants. 

First Student moves headquarters to GE’s Global Operations Center at the Banks

By Abby Miller – Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Aug 30, 2023

 

A transportation company with a robust presence in Cincinnati has relocated its headquarters to the Banks.

 

First Student, a major school transportation provider in North America, is now the second company to relocate its headquarters to General Electric’s former U.S. Global Operations Center at the Banks. First Student joins Staffmark, which occupies the 10th floor of the building, as a sublessor of the Class A office building.

 

First Student moved roughly 300 workers to its new headquarters this summer, with the full office working out the building by Aug. 15. First Student held a grand opening celebration for its employees on Aug. 29 to commemorate the move.

 

MORE

It seems as if there is going to be demand to build the Walnut street tower at the Banks soon (or maybe even the new W&S building, I can dream cant I) as there is a flight to quality in the Class A market. Buildings like 600 Vine, 525 Vine, even Chiquita would no longer qualify as Class A+ office space and they need to develop the top quality space for the highest end tenants. Carew, Macy's and other class B properties are being retired so those tenants are backfilling 600 Vine, 525 Vine, etc so there should be some demand in the market for a new office tower of some sort it would seem. 

Something called the "Kroger Heath and Wellness Festival" was being set up on Thursday when I was downtown.  This thing is...huge.  There isn't going to be any way to avoid this festival if you're visiting The Banks this weekend.  So is there going to be any...music?  Any...beer?  It seems like the whole thing is a giant effort by Kroger to get the Whole Foods Crowd to consider Kroger. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wellness festival has been going on for multiple years.  It used to be at the convention center but outgrew the space so it's been at the banks the last couple years.  They have multiple music acts, celebrities coming to give talks on wellness, people giving workout classes and tons of free giveaways.  The entire thing is free and is a pretty cool event. 

 

https://www.kroger.com/f/wellness-festival

Flo Rida and Barenaked Ladies are playing free concerts. Last year they had Michelob Ultra I believe.

https://www.fox19.com/2023/11/16/ge-says-goodbye-banks-250-workers-will-move-evendale/
 

Not surprised by this. They only had 250 employees left downtown. 

Leaving this here without comment:

  

On 7/3/2023 at 10:49 PM, seicer said:

 

Cincinnati needs to focus more on residential space rather than offices. The Banks could have some really nice condos if they lifted height restrictions. I know the Bengals would have to approve something but Mike Brown's daughters seem to be a better group to deal with than Mike.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

Leaving this here without comment:

  

 

 

Recall that the Dennison Hotel was demolished to expand the footprint to entice a hoped-for corporate HQ. 

 

 

50 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Cincinnati needs to focus more on residential space rather than offices.

 

Tons of apartments are being built. 

 

In retrospect, if Queen City Square had not been built, downtown office would be healthier, but we would not have as many vacancies to convert to apartments. 

 

 

 

There is always going to be demand for Class A office space, and I have no doubt that the GE building will quickly be filled with tenants that want modern office space in a walkable urban location.

 

As for the Joseph/Columbia parking lot, which has been growing for ~6 decades as they continued to buy up and demolish historic buildings, I think it's about time that they give up the dream of landing a Fortune 500 company who wants to build a new HQ at that site and consider building residential.

Would love to see the number of condos developed by year in 45202 over the last 20 years. Probably would be a good idea to incentivize condo development if it has dropped off as I suspect.

Weren't' there tax breaks given to GE because of the ~1,000 workers they would supposedly bring to downtown? I know they are subleasing the spaces so they will still be paying some way or another until 2031 but do their tax breaks disappear now that they are in Evendale not Cincinnati or do those tax breaks stay with the building and their new subleased tenants? 

1 hour ago, Miami-Erie said:

Would love to see the number of condos developed by year in 45202 over the last 20 years. Probably would be a good idea to incentivize condo development if it has dropped off as I suspect.

Its difficult to get financing to justify condo projects now. The numbers do not work the same way they did 20 years ago.

4 hours ago, taestell said:

There is always going to be demand for Class A office space, and I have no doubt that the GE building will quickly be filled with tenants that want modern office space in a walkable urban location.

 

As for the Joseph/Columbia parking lot, which has been growing for ~6 decades as they continued to buy up and demolish historic buildings, I think it's about time that they give up the dream of landing a Fortune 500 company who wants to build a new HQ at that site and consider building residential.

 

I always thought that was the just the nonsense they spouted to keep people off their backs about tearing down buildings.  I have a hard time believe they ever actually thought they would get a new fortune 500 company to build there.     Seems to me they have exactly what they want.   A giant surface parking lot downtown.  They are a car dealership group.   It is in their best interest to make sure there is plenty of cheap parking downtown so everyone will keep driving their cars.   If people actually had a hard time finding a place to park, then people would start taking public transit to work. 

20 hours ago, taestell said:

There is always going to be demand for Class A office space, and I have no doubt that the GE building will quickly be filled with tenants that want modern office space in a walkable urban location.

 

As for the Joseph/Columbia parking lot, which has been growing for ~6 decades as they continued to buy up and demolish historic buildings, I think it's about time that they give up the dream of landing a Fortune 500 company who wants to build a new HQ at that site and consider building residential.

I dont think that site really supports an office even in the best of times. It is some combo of residential and even hotel. Your class A office space will always want to go on the river or have a river view. You dont see office built in today's environment North of 5th street. Look at the towers North of 5th now. 5/3 is a dated building but relevant because its 5/3 HQ (and benefits from Ftn Sq. 600 Vine has always struggled as a building, Macy's is now going apartment, 580 is now apartment, 700 Walnut is half empty and was mostly class B small law firm space. Kroger is full because it is Kroger but it would not qualify as Class A space. 

 

Given the neighborhood and new reality of the office market, that spot is not a class A office. However, if you were going to build an office on there, it could be a good spot for a new County administration building and all the jobs that would be based down there. It offers close enough access to the Courthouse and jail, it is near a lot of smaller law firms and county support services, and offers easy enough access to the interstates to people who need to come and go to the area. 

On 11/16/2023 at 3:08 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Its difficult to get financing to justify condo projects now. The numbers do not work the same way they did 20 years ago.

 

Would need special financing arrangements but would be worth figuring out from partners like CDFIs, banks, etc.

I could see Fifth Third and First Financial taking an interest in it as well as CDF.

On 11/22/2023 at 1:58 PM, Miami-Erie said:

 

Would need special financing arrangements but would be worth figuring out from partners like CDFIs, banks, etc.

I could see Fifth Third and First Financial taking an interest in it as well as CDF.

I could see a townhome project or something smaller being built in the West End or near City Hall first to test the waters on the condo market before I could see someone going all in on a highrise conversion like Carew Tower or new project like that. 

 

There have been numerous glizty condo projects proposed in the last 15 years downtown and none have come to fruition (See SKyhouse, the project before Artistry which i forget the name, The Edge) to name a few. If you look that the list of canceled projects on the forum, it is littered with condo projects that never took off. they are a tough lift.