September 24, 200717 yr Banks deadline brings concerns Council mulls zoning changes before election BY JESSICA BROWN | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER September 24, 2007 DOWNTOWN - This week marks a crucial point for the proposed Banks riverfront development. Everyone involved - the city, the county and the developers - have set an unofficial deadline of the end of September to get this project rolling. They say they want documents signed and the project approved by Cincinnati and Hamilton County this week... Council members speak Do you support the proposed Banks development as approved by Cincinnati Planning Commission (with the new height and density allowances)? Leslie Ghiz: I have very serious concerns about the 30-story height exception. That is a big concern of mine. David Crowley: I have some concerns about the potential impact of the large buildings in terms of views and an oversaturation of office space, but at this point I remain undecided. Jeff Berding: I am in favor of having some flexibility for the construction of one such (30-story) building, provided that City Council has the opportunity to review the development at the appropriate time. Roxanne Qualls: No. It in no way reflects the vision that was expressed by the community when this planning process began 10 years ago, which was to create a new neighborhood for downtown Cincinnati, and what they approved may compete with downtown. Chris Bortz: Even the developer has acknowledged they don't intend to build more than one 30-story tower. They have to let the market over time indicate where that is going to go. Laketa Cole: As I said to them in the meeting last week on this, if it's one or two buildings I don't have a concern, but if it's more than one or two I have a huge concern. John Cranley: I think we need to get moving. We've been delayed for years. Chris Monzel: I'm concerned about it. On first blush I didn't like it. That's where I'm at until someone convinces me otherwise. For me, that isn't what I envisioned there. Cecil Thomas: Did not respond.
September 24, 200717 yr Are you kidding? Cincinnati Needs the Banks. How could it possibly "compete" with downtown. It is downtown. And as far as views are concerned, that's one of the risks you take being in or near a downtown area. Shutting down an important project because it allows for tall buildings downtown is simply ridiculous.
September 24, 200717 yr It seems that whatever goals the Banks developers may have had, were lost when they decided to "aim higher" by stating they should be granted a 30-story height limit. Just that alone may have killed the project, or at least delayed it by a few more years. Meanwhile, other cities are building arenas, 62-story towers, entire riverfront communities, etc. in two or three years, not ten... *sigh* Politics are bad, especially when you have two factions at war with each other.
September 24, 200717 yr The worst thing about this entire project is that city and the county are involved........... So much for go big or go home! Most cities would embrace such an ambitious idea.
September 24, 200717 yr I have never gotten excited about the banks, sure it would be cool if it happened but streetcars and OTR development are much more important.
September 24, 200717 yr ^ I would have to agree, but this could also be a big jolt for those projects as well!
September 24, 200717 yr Meanwhile, other cities are building arenas, 62-story towers, entire riverfront communities, etc. in two or three years, not ten... You do realize that Louisville is behind Cincinnati in this regard. Cincinnati has built GABP, PBS, Freedom Center, City West, all the Uptown projects, extended riverfront parks, expanded the convention center, entire riverfront communities (ala East End), rebuilt FS, is rapidly moving forward with a streetcar system and has completed a whole slew of rehabs that has left downtown without a major vacant building...and has essentially filled in just about every single building available. New infill is now popping up because there isn't much more room left to rehab (not including OTR which you should know the success story there). Louisville is doing some nice stuff...but it is like comparing Varsity to JV sports.
September 24, 200717 yr ^Good response. I would have just stated how ugly Louisville's 62-story mess is going to be and called it a day.
September 24, 200717 yr oh snap.... its funny because I love how seicer says "other cities". It seemed apparent to me atleast that every project he listed is currently going on in l'ville.
September 24, 200717 yr Meanwhile, other cities are building arenas, 62-story towers, entire riverfront communities, etc. in two or three years, not ten... You do realize that Louisville is behind Cincinnati in this regard. Cincinnati has built GABP, PBS, Freedom Center, City West, all the Uptown projects, extended riverfront parks, expanded the convention center, entire riverfront communities (ala East End), rebuilt FS, is rapidly moving forward with a streetcar system and has completed a whole slew of rehabs that has left downtown without a major vacant building...and has essentially filled in just about every single building available. New infill is now popping up because there isn't much more room left to rehab (not including OTR which you should know the success story there). Louisville is doing some nice stuff...but it is like comparing Varsity to JV sports. Not to mention we've accomplished all of that while being pretty good about not over-building. One would think Miami is really moving from all of the towers that have gone up but people are now losing a lot of money there.
September 24, 200717 yr People in the 'KNOW' understand this, but most people just focus on what hasn't been done. Don't forget fort washington way. By the time riverfront west is done in covington I imagine it will have taken longer than The banks. That project has been around for at least 7 years & no sign of progress. Any city that is just now building sports arenas & Riverfront communities is way behind Cincy! Cincinnati = Been there! Done that!! Many a times!!! Meanwhile, other cities are building arenas, 62-story towers, entire riverfront communities, etc. in two or three years, not ten... You do realize that Louisville is behind Cincinnati in this regard. Cincinnati has built GABP, PBS, Freedom Center, City West, all the Uptown projects, extended riverfront parks, expanded the convention center, entire riverfront communities (ala East End), rebuilt FS, is rapidly moving forward with a streetcar system and has completed a whole slew of rehabs that has left downtown without a major vacant building...and has essentially filled in just about every single building available. New infill is now popping up because there isn't much more room left to rehab (not including OTR which you should know the success story there). Louisville is doing some nice stuff...but it is like comparing Varsity to JV sports.
September 24, 200717 yr I have never gotten excited about the banks, sure it would be cool if it happened but streetcars and OTR development are much more important. I totally agree that both of those things are more important to Cincinnati than The Banks. The architecture in OTR is unbelievable and the streetcar is a much needed step in the right direction regarding transit. However, because of where it is located geographically, The Banks is still vital to the growth and development of this city. Every time a picture is taken of our beautiful skyline, a gaping hole is shown, front and center. It looks even worse during television coverage of Reds and Bengals games. That land should be the showcase of a great river city. As it is, I'd imagine more people see it from those blimp-shots and think "Why would anyone want to live there?" than "Wow, Cincinnati looks like a really cool city". We have an amazing town here with an image problem, and the barren waste that currently occupies that land isn't doing Cincinnati any favors.
September 24, 200717 yr Any city that is just now building sports arenas & Riverfront communities is way behind Cincy! Not really. Stadiums don't do much for cities anyway. They have a short life span and not many dollars are pumped into the local economy from outside the metro area, as few people outside the metro area go to games. Cities are probably better off without them, or in the case of Columbus, owned by a private entity (I think Nationwide Arena is owned by Nationwide Realty and the Dispatch). They were able to create an entire arena district without the city paying for the main attraction. I'm just not impressed by stadiums, especially football as there's very few home games. Multi-use arenas paid for by private entities that get booked all year around are the way to go.
September 24, 200717 yr Thats what I think whenever I see aerial shots of the rca dome for the indianapolis colts, texas stadium for the dallas cowboys, heinz field for the steelers, fedex field for the washington redskins & all the other stadiums & fields that are surrounded by nothing. At least the stadiums in Cincinnati have potential. I have never gotten excited about the banks, sure it would be cool if it happened but streetcars and OTR development are much more important. I totally agree that both of those things are more important to Cincinnati than The Banks. The architecture in OTR is unbelievable and the streetcar is a much needed step in the right direction regarding transit. However, because of where it is located geographically, The Banks is still vital to the growth and development of this city. Every time a picture is taken of our beautiful skyline, a gaping hole is shown, front and center. It looks even worse during television coverage of Reds and Bengals games. That land should be the showcase of a great river city. As it is, I'd imagine more people see it from those blimp-shots and think "Why would anyone want to live there?" than "Wow, Cincinnati looks like a really cool city". We have an amazing town here with an image problem, and the barren waste that currently occupies that land isn't doing Cincinnati any favors.
September 24, 200717 yr Thats what I think whenever I see aerial shots of the rca dome for the indianapolis colts, texas stadium for the dallas cowboys, heinz field for the steelers, fedex field for the washington redskins & all the other stadiums & fields that are surrounded by nothing. At least the stadiums in Cincinnati have potential. Don't forget Turner Field in Atlanta. What a disaster. You would not believe how terrible the housing stock is around it. It looks like a giant Hooverville. Just as many empty lots as houses and everything is forested less than a mile from downtown Atlanta. This is in-between the ballpark and Zoo Atlanta!!!
September 24, 200717 yr Maby you should take a trip to the local hotels downtown to see the thousands of people who make the trip from out of state to see bengals & Reds play. Some drive & some are on the dozens of buses that bring people in from hundreds of miles away. To say they don't do much is saying that you are misinformed. Understandable for a minor league park like louisville has but its different in the majors & the NFL, way different! Any city that is just now building sports arenas & Riverfront communities is way behind Cincy! Not really. Stadiums don't do much for cities anyway. They have a short life span and not many dollars are pumped into the local economy from outside the metro area, as few people outside the metro area go to games. Cities are probably better off without them, or in the case of Columbus, owned by a private entity (I think Nationwide Arena is owned by Nationwide Realty and the Dispatch). They were able to create an entire arena district without the city paying for the main attraction. I'm just not impressed by stadiums, especially football as there's very few home games. Multi-use arenas paid for by private entities that get booked all year around are the way to go.
September 24, 200717 yr Yet just another example. Thats what I think whenever I see aerial shots of the rca dome for the indianapolis colts, texas stadium for the dallas cowboys, heinz field for the steelers, fedex field for the washington redskins & all the other stadiums & fields that are surrounded by nothing. At least the stadiums in Cincinnati have potential. Don't forget Turner Field in Atlanta. What a disaster. You would not believe how terrible the housing stock is around it. It looks like a giant Hooverville. Just as many empty lots as houses and everything is forested less than a mile from downtown Atlanta. This is in-between the ballpark and Zoo Atlanta!!!
September 24, 200717 yr Maby you should take a trip to the local hotels downtown to see the thousands of people who make the trip from out of state to see bengals & Reds play. Some drive & some are on the dozens of buses that bring people in from hundreds of miles away. To say they don't do much is saying that you are misinformed. Understandable for a minor league park like louisville has but its different in the majors & the NFL, way different! I hope you don't take it as me dissing Cincinnati. I'm glad the Bengals are here and I think our stadiums are in a great location, I just don't think the public pays for these things for the economic benefit; more like branding and creating an identity coupled with the fact that our culture loves pro sports. We have what, 10 home games a year at Paul Brown? Plus a few random events here and there. Is that worth a $1.?Billion investment after the loans are paid off? I'm not an economist; I'm just going off of studies I've seen online that say the costs outweighs the benefits. I could be wrong. I'm curious to know how much money they truely bring in.
September 25, 200717 yr I must say I share some of the pessimism of the Council (I can't believe I'm saying this!). I hate to see further delay, but what are we to do if Carter just up and decides to plop a 30-story tower right next to the Freedom Center? I don't think that they would, but something along those lines could theoretically happen. Oversaturation of the market could be devastating to the Downtown market. Filtering is one thing, a natural process, but a sudden influx of major class A space could be very damaging. Not to mention the design dynamics... we want a seemless transition from the Banks to Downtown, not an extension of it.
September 25, 200717 yr If it was possible to actually figure out the numbers I think it would be easy to see that the stadiums would bring in alot more than that over their lifetime. Thats money spent that otherwise wouldn't be spent in Cincinnati. You also have to consider we have other pro sports in states not to far from Cincinnati. It's easy for them to go to Cincinnati compared to other sports teams in places far from other major cities like houston, los angeles, phoenix, denver, seattle, etc. Cincinnati voted for their stadiums. I don't believe Washington DC voted for theirs. Cincinnati hasn't done anything that most other pro sports cities hasn't done. It's not cheap being Major League! If it doesn't mean much, Why new orleans worry so much their team was going to leave? Why washington DC fight so hard for a team?, Why does san antonio want a NFL team? Why has los angeles desperately been seeking a team?
September 25, 200717 yr Then our skyline would start to resemble anywhere usa, Would it be worth it for a new fortune 500 company? Maby?? Maby not??? depends on what company & where they came from?! I must say I share some of the pessimism of the Council (I can't believe I'm saying this!). I hate to see further delay, but what are we to do if Carter just up and decides to plop a 30-story tower right next to the Freedom Center? I don't think that they would, but something along those lines could theoretically happen. Oversaturation of the market could be devastating to the Downtown market. Filtering is one thing, a natural process, but a sudden influx of major class A space could be very damaging. Not to mention the design dynamics... we want a seemless transition from the Banks to Downtown, not an extension of it.
September 25, 200717 yr Folks ... we are talking 10 years of economic growth. Give the city 5 or 6 years and then tell me that the market cannot handle the market in that time (2013-2014). You guys sound like there is going to be some sort of instant tower that goes up as soon as you add water. Every city goes through this, let Cincinnati go through it as well.
September 25, 200717 yr Honestly, I don't care where they plop down a 30 story tower. They can put one in the river for all I care!
September 25, 200717 yr They had better come to quick agreement on the Banks or no one is going to believe it will ever happen. Further delay is inexcuseable !!
September 25, 200717 yr oh snap.... its funny because I love how seicer says "other cities". It seemed apparent to me atleast that every project he listed is currently going on in l'ville. Oh, please. I don't go out and hunt down every city for a cite, but Louisville has over $1 billion worth of projects in the pipeline. Let's count projects over the past two years that have been proposed -- Museum Plaza: $469 million 62-story tower. While it may be ugly to some, to others, it is a prime example of avant-garde beauty. Let's not fuss over the design. It's gotten the support of not only the city, but the state, who is financing a large chunk of it with TIF. Includes lofts, museums, parks, offices, and part of UofL. RiverPark Place: $200 million project along the Ohio, with 600+ units, two 14-story towers, retail, offices, a marina. Two towers and numerous 5-story buildings. Arena: $250 million project, TIF financing through city-state agreement. Center City District: $250 million project, through TIF financing part of city-state agreement. ZirMed Gateway Towers: $25 million 10-story and 12-story residential condo tower. Iron Quarter: $50 million 10-12 story mixed-use project, through TIF financing part of city-state agreement. Not to say Louisville is better than Cincinnati, but that we have regional and state cooperation which is sorely lacking at The Banks. While our state government is open to the idea of TIF financing and using hotel revenues (e.g. Museum Plaza) to finance portions of the project, the very mention at The Banks seems to stir resentment. Anyone proposing a taller tower gets shot down. Then you have the squabbles between the city, county and various groups who clamor over some minority issue and etc., and it's no wonder why this has taken _10_ years from announcement to this. I've seen larger projects proposed and built faster than The Banks. IMO, requesting a larger height variance was a huge mistake. There was a tenative agreement on The Banks for construction, it seems, and by saying that a "30-story building" could work at The Banks, and then making Monopoly models to show off, is like opening a can of worms. Meanwhile, Cincinnati and NKY is seeing a building boom. Projects in the Clifton Heights neighborhood and near the hospital are taking shape, residential towers to the east are being constructed, and then you have the Underground Railroad Museum which is an art piece in itself. Two clean, elegant stadiums. And then you have the giant blight dead center. Cincinnati needs this project as much as NKY does. And so does Hamilton County. But it needs far more regional cooperation than this.
September 25, 200717 yr They had better come to quick agreement on the Banks or no one is going to believe it will ever happen. Further delay is inexcuseable !! Ten years strong. Saying that The Banks is close to being built is an understatement. I have a pile of papers from the late 1990s and early 2000s with the promise of new developments along the river, along with models and preliminary plans. And then more piles throughout the 2000s. And more piles from late. It gets quite tiresome when you hear The Banks is seeking a height variance, which changes the game plan completely, and then you hear the usual squabbling. The continual merry-go-round. No wonder so many seem disfranchised with the project. I put my bet on the many other projects Cincinnati and NKY have in their pipeline. IMO, sell off the land for The Banks. Let other private developers take it over and let them build their smaller, individual buildings. At least with that, there won't be a continual squabble over the size of the project, design, and etc.
September 25, 200717 yr If your talking the pipeline, Cincinnati has plenty of Billions!! Heck, Northern kentucky has more than louisville, then again NKY is also the fastest growing part of kentucky.
September 25, 200717 yr In terms of population growth or whats in the pipeline? NKY does not have $1 billion in projects in the two-year funding phase, IIRC. I would like to see a comparison, but let's save the comparisons to another thread.
September 25, 200717 yr They had better come to quick agreement on the Banks or no one is going to believe it will ever happen. Further delay is inexcuseable !! Ten years strong. Saying that The Banks is close to being built is an understatement. I have a pile of papers from the late 1990s and early 2000s with the promise of new developments along the river, along with models and preliminary plans. And then more piles throughout the 2000s. And more piles from late. It gets quite tiresome when you hear The Banks is seeking a height variance, which changes the game plan completely, and then you hear the usual squabbling. The continual merry-go-round. No wonder so many seem disfranchised with the project. I put my bet on the many other projects Cincinnati and NKY have in their pipeline. IMO, sell off the land for The Banks. Let other private developers take it over and let them build their smaller, individual buildings. At least with that, there won't be a continual squabble over the size of the project, design, and etc. Seems like that would be hard to do since the large firms that the city deals with need to do large scale development to keep up with their insane overhead.
September 25, 200717 yr Both! Its only a matter of time that northern kentucky becomes kentuckys largest metro area. In terms of population growth or whats in the pipeline? NKY does not have $1 billion in projects in the two-year funding phase, IIRC. I would like to see a comparison, but let's save the comparisons to another thread.
September 25, 200717 yr You used the terms pipeline & proposed so thats what I was refering to. In terms of population growth or whats in the pipeline? NKY does not have $1 billion in projects in the two-year funding phase, IIRC. I would like to see a comparison, but let's save the comparisons to another thread.
September 25, 200717 yr Seems like that would be hard to do since the large firms that the city deals with need to do large scale development to keep up with their insane overhead. (snipped for brevity) That is true, and it could lead to taller-than-desirable developments.
September 25, 200717 yr They had better come to quick agreement on the Banks or no one is going to believe it will ever happen. Further delay is inexcuseable !! Ten years strong. Saying that The Banks is close to being built is an understatement. I have a pile of papers from the late 1990s and early 2000s with the promise of new developments along the river, along with models and preliminary plans. And then more piles throughout the 2000s. And more piles from late. It gets quite tiresome when you hear The Banks is seeking a height variance, which changes the game plan completely, and then you hear the usual squabbling. The continual merry-go-round. No wonder so many seem disfranchised with the project. I put my bet on the many other projects Cincinnati and NKY have in their pipeline. IMO, sell off the land for The Banks. Let other private developers take it over and let them build their smaller, individual buildings. At least with that, there won't be a continual squabble over the size of the project, design, and etc. There are many legit reasons that have led to this 10 year time table. We need to realize that we've gone through a recession and are in the beginning phases of another, we've gone to war, suffered the largest terrorist attack to this nation, seen massive cuts in urban funding thanks to the Bush War Machine and have also seen other issues that have contributed to this very problem. This is not unique to Cincinnati and one should take these into account when looking at this 10 year period. With that said...it will be simply inexcusable if construction isn't started within the next 4-5 months. This whole height thing so far has not caused 1 single delay...it passed through PC, and is now moving on to City Council. Maybe we should all quit jumping the gun, because it will all be for not if council goes ahead and approves this thing. If that happens then you'll see dirt being turned within a few short months.
September 25, 200717 yr Both! Its only a matter of time that northern kentucky becomes kentuckys largest metro area. In terms of population growth or whats in the pipeline? NKY does not have $1 billion in projects in the two-year funding phase, IIRC. I would like to see a comparison, but let's save the comparisons to another thread. Hardly. Louisville, KY Metro: 701,500 (Counts Jefferson Co. only); Balance: 554,496 (Sans 'incorporated' areas like Anchorage) Louisville, KY Metropolitan area: 1,222,216 (Counts surrounding counties + Jefferson + 'Incorporated' areas) Lexington, KY: 275,754 (Counts Fayette Co. as well) Lexington-Fayette MSA: 429,889 Lexington-Fayette-Frankfort-Richmond, KY CSA: 635,547 Boone County, KY: 110,080 Bracken County, KY: 8,670 Campbell County, KY: 86,866 Gallatin County, KY: 8,153 Grant County, KY: 24,769 Kenton County, KY: 154,911 Pendelton County, KY: 15,334 Total for NKY: 408,783 Cincinnati-Hamilton, OH-KY-IN CSA: 2,104,233 Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN MSA (prior to 1990): 1,749,241 (difference?) NKY (excluding Cinci) still has a long way to go to match Louisville, and has a little bit to reach Lexington. Adding that NKY's primary growth is in the suburbs (unfortunately)...
September 25, 200717 yr Adding that NKY's primary growth is in the suburbs (unfortunately)... What do you mean...Florence is "The Most Contemporary Downtown in America"
September 25, 200717 yr I went there today to visit a camera shop. By contemporary, do you mean the faux storefronts near the mall? The outdoor seating that holds 8 or 9 people in front of Starbucks? The sidewalks with no way to get to the individual shopping plazas? And what is going up in front of the mall along Interstate 71/75?
September 25, 200717 yr I went there today to visit a camera shop. By contemporary, do you mean the faux storefronts near the mall? The outdoor seating that holds 8 or 9 people in front of Starbucks? The sidewalks with no way to get to the individual shopping plazas? And what is going up in front of the mall along Interstate 71/75? Don't take my word for it... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1928.msg16834#msg16834
September 25, 200717 yr With Florence Ya'll on one side & Hamilton! on the other, Wouldn't Cincinnati have the most contemporary downtown in america?
September 25, 200717 yr With Florence Ya'll on one side & Hamilton! on the other, Wouldn't Cincinnati have the most contemporary downtown in america? Hamilton actually has a 'real' downtown and several 'real' walkable historic neighborhoods linked to that downtown. Florence is a suburban town built mostly on suburban principles, Hamilton is very much an urban environment and one of the most ethnically diverse in the metro region.
September 25, 200717 yr With Florence Ya'll on one side & Hamilton! on the other, Wouldn't Cincinnati have the most contemporary downtown in america? Hamilton actually has a 'real' downtown and several 'real' walkable historic neighborhoods linked to that downtown. Florence is a suburban town built mostly on suburban principles, Hamilton is very much an urban environment and one of the most ethnically diverse in the metro region. Ragerunner, you keep typing Hamilton when I'm sure you're talking about Hamilton!. Hamilton! is very much an urban environment. I don't know where boring old Hamilton, OH is...but Hamilton! "City of Sculpture!" is right smack dab in the center of it all.
September 25, 200717 yr Geesh!!... I am very familiar with Hamilton!, Thank You very much. In my opinion it is the 'Safest' city in america. I was just thinking at the time how funny it was with "Florence Y'all" & "Hamilton!" Anyone in their right mind (non-suburbanites) can see there is no comparison between the two. I wish Hamilton still had the '!' after their name. With Florence Ya'll on one side & Hamilton! on the other, Wouldn't Cincinnati have the most contemporary downtown in america? Hamilton actually has a 'real' downtown and several 'real' walkable historic neighborhoods linked to that downtown. Florence is a suburban town built mostly on suburban principles, Hamilton is very much an urban environment and one of the most ethnically diverse in the metro region. Ragerunner, you keep typing Hamilton when I'm sure you're talking about Hamilton!. Hamilton! is very much an urban environment. I don't know where boring old Hamilton, OH is...but Hamilton! "City of Sculpture!" is right smack dab in the center of it all.
September 25, 200717 yr Just as an FYI...the ! has been removed from the Hamilton name. With 'name' being the operative word here.
September 26, 200717 yr from today's Enquirer http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070926/EDIT01/709260316/1090/EDIT Let's not get mired in misunderstanding over Banks BY CALEB FAUX As we approach a final decision by City Council and the County Commission regarding a development agreement for the Banks, it appears there's a need for clarification about what the Cincinnati Planning Commission actually approved in terms of zoning for the site. What the Planning Commission approved was a "concept plan," the first in a two-step approval process used for planned developments. In Cincinnati we've rarely used the planned development approval process, even though it's quite common in other places...
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