^ Gotcha!

Banks approval said coming soon

October 4, 2007 | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

 

DOWNTOWN - Issues that delayed an announcement this week involving The Banks riverfront project are nearly resolved, according to Hamilton County Commission President Todd Portune.

 

[glow=yellow,2,300]"We're still moving on a good track," he said Wednesday. "It's still pointing to ground being broken this year..."[/glow]

Good. Let's get a friggin date set for once! That will be a huge accomplishment, and hopefully will get the ball rolling at a much quicker pace! It seems as if most of the hurdles set when the design plan was modified have been 'ironed out', so to say.

They'll set a date, then delay the date, then call it all off and start the date setting process over again...I have absolutely no hopes that this time will be any different than the past times.

I was in Atlanta last week and I had dinner in Atlantic Station (which has been held up as a model for the Banks, sort of).  It is a nice, upscale area with plenty of good restaurants, movie theater, gym etc., but it doesnt have much character or charm. It definately feels like every building was constructed by the same developer at the same time.  But we all knows this, so I'll talk about a few things that I liked about Atlantic Station.

 

-I like the way they did the undergrown parking garage.  You drive down a ramp under the streets and the lanes in the garage have street signs so you know which street you are driving under.  There are a few elevators that can take you up to street level, but no one uses them.  Instead they have a stairwell on almost every street corner that are built to look like a NYC subway entrance at street level.  It is a small touch, but it gives street level an urban feel.  Given that the Banks calls for (actually it neccessitates) parking below the streets I wouldnt be suprised if the same design was incorporated into the Banks plan.

 

-I like that there is some on-street parking.  Pulling into a new development like Atlantic Station which is attached to a huge parking garage you expect to find no parking signs on all of the streets.  It makes the neighborhood feel less like a shopping mall and more like a place where people actually live.

 

-Rent-a-cops.  Downtown and Midtown Atlanta feel more dangerous than downtown Cincy at night.  You dont see hookers and obvious drug-dealers walking the streets of Cincy at 9:00pm(or at any other time).  You do in Atlanta.  Although Atlantic Station is seperate from downtown/midtown it is very close (within walking distance).  However it feels very safe partly because of the rent-a-cops that are noticeable on the streets. 

 

-Grocery store.  This may be too much to hope for in the Banks, but it would make a huge difference and really help to move the residential units.

 

The thing I kept reminding myself as I envisioned what it would be like if you plopped Atlantic Station into the empty lots that hopefully will become the Banks is that Atlantic Station isnt set between two huge stadiums.  It isnt accessed by the beautiful Roebling Bridge from the South and it doesnt have a large riverfront park at its doorstep.  Even if the Banks turned out to be a glorified shopping mall like Atlantic Station, the other assets of the site would make it unique.

 

I was in Atlanta last week and I had dinner in Atlantic Station (which has been held up as a model for the Banks, sort of).  It is a nice, upscale area with plenty of good restaurants, movie theater, gym etc., but it doesnt have much character or charm. It definately feels like every building was constructed by the same developer at the same time.  But we all knows this, so I'll talk about a few things that I liked about Atlantic Station.

 

That's one of my major issues with The Banks, especially if it is expanded in size to allow for larger multi-story buildings. I made the mention earlier (IIRC, this thread) that it may be wise to break the development into smaller parcels so that a variety of developers can dabble in the project -- which will lead to different building styles and designs. Typically, with large developments by one corporation, such as Atlantic Station and Pullman Square, there tends to be a uniform design -- and if there are any varieties, it is more with a general facade treatment, but nothing too specific.

 

I like the way they did the undergrown parking garage.  You drive down a ramp under the streets and the lanes in the garage have street signs so you know which street you are driving under.  There are a few elevators that can take you up to street level, but no one uses them.  Instead they have a stairwell on almost every street corner that are built to look like a NYC subway entrance at street level.  It is a small touch, but it gives street level an urban feel.  Given that the Banks calls for (actually it neccessitates) parking below the streets I wouldnt be suprised if the same design was incorporated into the Banks plan.

 

I like Atlantic Station's layout. Granted I have not yet visited Atlanta, but from the photographs and maps that I have seen, it is an innovative but more expensive layout. I believe the estimate for underground parking runs about 1.5x to 2x higher than a normal parking structure if excavation is involved.

 

Rent-a-cops.  Downtown and Midtown Atlanta feel more dangerous than downtown Cincy at night.  You dont see hookers and obvious drug-dealers walking the streets of Cincy at 9:00pm(or at any other time).

 

I've seen them, especially the closer to Over The Rhrine you get. Not to say OTR is always filled with drug-dealers and etc., but they are present. Thankfully, it is not nearly as bad as years past (i.e. when the projects filled up the space).

 

Grocery store.  This may be too much to hope for in the Banks, but it would make a huge difference and really help to move the residential units.

 

I would rather see a grocery store more central in the downtown, but within walking distance from The Banks. Having a grocery store at The Banks would make it difficult for anyone from OTR to visit it regularly, although a bus (or streetcar) can help in this regard.

-I like the way they did the undergrown parking garage.  You drive down a ramp under the streets and the lanes in the garage have street signs so you know which street you are driving under.  There are a few elevators that can take you up to street level, but no one uses them.  Instead they have a stairwell on almost every street corner that are built to look like a NYC subway entrance at street level.  It is a small touch, but it gives street level an urban feel.  Given that the Banks calls for (actually it neccessitates) parking below the streets I wouldnt be suprised if the same design was incorporated into the Banks plan.

 

I haven't been to Atlantic Station, but those "subway entrances" sound cool.  That's a nice touch and could add some character to the streets.  I wonder if they would bother to make them resemble the entrances already built on 2nd Street for the proposed Transit Center.

 

 

-I like that there is some on-street parking.  Pulling into a new development like Atlantic Station which is attached to a huge parking garage you expect to find no parking signs on all of the streets.  It makes the neighborhood feel less like a shopping mall and more like a place where people actually live.

 

That's actually a big surprise to me.  When I envisioned the streets of The Banks development, I always imagined that any on-street parking would be reserved exclusively for valets.  You're right, having a few parking spaces on-street would make it feel more like a neighborhood.  And who doesn't like that "I just won the lottery" feeling that you get when the dream parking space is available?

 

I would rather see a grocery store more central in the downtown, but within walking distance from The Banks. Having a grocery store at The Banks would make it difficult for anyone from OTR to visit it regularly, although a bus (or streetcar) can help in this regard.

 

Just out of curiosity, why would anyone from Over-The-Rhine need to go all the way to The Banks for a grocery store?  Isn't there already a Kroger in OTR?  Maybe it's no longer in service, but I rarely visit that part of town, so I honestly don't know.  Actually, I think that having a few smaller grocery stores would better serve the populace than one big suburban-style one anyway.  Ideally, you'd have one at The Banks, one or two in OTR, and maybe a few more near residential hotspots downtown.  And yes, the streetcar would certainly help with this.

^That's what I was thinking. There's a Kroger in OTR right on Vine.

OTR Kroger is awesome!  I go there all the time. It's a very small store and has everything you need when it comes to normal groceries etc. 

Oops, thanks Mov2Ohio! It's been a while since I've been on Vine. The Kroger's there reminds me of one down here -- very small but still offering pretty much all the staples of a larger big-box. Shame we can't build more :(

Council sets Oct. 23 Banks hearing

BY DAN MONK | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER

October 5, 2007

 

DOWNTOWN - Cincinnati City Council's economic development committee scheduled an Oct. 23 public hearing to consider an Atlanta developer's plans for the Cincinnati riverfront, a move that would enable a 2007 groundbreaking for the Banks project.

 

"We don't want to delay it unnecessarily," said Councilman Chris Bortz, development committee chairman, who has previously declined to schedule a hearing until a final development agreement was reached on the Banks...

 

I like the way they did the undergrown parking garage.  You drive down a ramp under the streets and the lanes in the garage have street signs so you know which street you are driving under.  There are a few elevators that can take you up to street level, but no one uses them.  Instead they have a stairwell on almost every street corner that are built to look like a NYC subway entrance at street level.  It is a small touch, but it gives street level an urban feel.  Given that the Banks calls for (actually it neccessitates) parking below the streets I wouldnt be suprised if the same design was incorporated into the Banks plan.

 

This sounds really interesting.  Usually parking garages are not too special, but these sound  like interesting features.

 

 

Since everyone is soo interested in those garage entrances at Atlantic Station...here are some pictures I took while I was down there:

 

 

 

You can see it right next to me in this one...

 

And in this one I am coming up through one of the couple escalators from the garage:

 

Finally here is the view of that escalator entrance...

atlantic station is sterile, every place there had a dress code posted on the door to exclude ball caps and oversized shirts.  the message is pretty clear.

I sure hope the banks don't turn out like that!! That is awful!

Rando, did you get a good look at the Faux Brick on every single one of those buildings?  Perhaps the garages are an interesting model to influence the banks...the architecture there is just terrible.

Rando, did you get a good look at the Faux Brick on every single one of those buildings?  Perhaps the garages are an interesting model to influence the banks...the architecture there is just terrible.

 

Yes the architecture certainly leaves a lot to be desired...as does the connectivity.  The Banks will be 10x better than this even if it is the same crap...mainly because The Banks will be connected with downtown and the riverfront.  Atlantic Station feels like an island to itself.  I also didn't like the fact that while they had on-street parking (a good thing) they used those crap parking meters (like the ones at The Greene).  The streets also didn't have a similar engineered design as the rest of the city...once again creating an isolated/district feel.

 

One of the FEW things that I would like to see implemented from Atlantic Station would be those garage entrances that look/feel like subway entrances.  Besides that though...Atlantic Station feels like a 'Lifestyle Center' and that is certainly NOT what I want for The Banks.

don't we have gargage entrances like that in front of the freedom center?

Yes...but with a more Cincinnati design.

Group: Banks will steal our parking

BY JESSICA BROWN | [email protected]

 

"Representatives from eight downtown business interests sent yet another letter over the weekend to Cincinnati City Council and Hamilton County Commissioners expressing their concern about certain aspects of the propose Banks riverfront development.

 

Specifically the businesses fear plan won’t include enough parking for the people who work downtown...

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071008/NEWS01/310080049

---

STUPID!!!!

The time has come for the politicans to lower their heads and plow forward on this project.

 

geez.  I am pretty sure they are just bitching to bitch.  This is ridiculous.  Only in America. 

Wow, they certainly seem to be grasping at straws when it comes to the stealing parking argument. This seems like a matter of sour grapes. Let the city move forward and have a neighborhood to be proud of rather than a mockery of a sandbox on it's Riverfront.

Yes, those entrances by the Freedom Center are similar in concept though more modern in design...  I had thought they were designed to be maybe entrys to a light rail line if they do get around to building one into downtown.

 

Atlantic Station doesnt look that bad.  It reminds me more of what they are doing in Columbus with the Arena District, though from the plans it looks like The Banks will be one of the more integrated plans, integrated into the city street grid.

 

And I agree that they need to press with this. These last minute objections.....well, i agree with the above comments.

 

 

Ah, the old "Parking as a Birthright" argument.  I knew we'd see it sooner or later.

 

Missing from the story above (and maybe in an earlier or later edition of the story) is a (not so) veiled threat about "this is why companies are heading to the suburbs".

^ Very true.  And these businesses are sort of missing the part where, hopefully, some of their workers won't need the parking anyway, because they'd be LIVING downtown. 

What if we were to get emails or addresses of these opposition folks and inundate there offices with our thoughts?   

 

Do you think that would have any effect once they realize how many people know who and what companies are involved in this negative rhetoric, and how the general public is persieving there place of business?

 

Just thinking out loud!  These $#%holes are really trying to screw this project up!

What if we were to get emails or addresses of these opposition folks and inundate there offices with our thoughts?   

 

Do you think that would have any effect once they realize how many people know who and what companies are involved in this negative rhetoric, and how the general public is persieving there place of business?

 

In short, no.

 

This really does seem to be getting ridiculous, and it is now coming across as a desperate attempt at these same stakeholders trying to prevent new competition from coming into the market.  I wonder why these people didn't express these concerns oh...10 YEARS AGO!?!?  They have seen this plan for many, many years and only a few things have changed...and they are mostly aesthetics (aside from density issue).  But all in all, it is the same proposal and would have had these same issues 10 years ago (when it first started rolling along) as it does now.

 

This is why you should get involved in the planning process for projects.  At this point it is an example of NIMBYism downtown...grow up and realize that the world just doesn't work that way.

What if we were to get emails or addresses of these opposition folks and inundate there offices with our thoughts?   

 

Do you think that would have any effect once they realize how many people know who and what companies are involved in this negative rhetoric, and how the general public is persieving there place of business?

 

  At this point it is an example of NIMBYism downtown...grow up and realize that the world just doesn't work that way.

What if we were to get emails or addresses of these opposition folks and inundate there offices with our thoughts?   

 

Do you think that would have any effect once they realize how many people know who and what companies are involved in this negative rhetoric, and how the general public is persieving there place of business?

 

In short, no.

 

This really does seem to be getting ridiculous, and it is now coming across as a desperate attempt at these same stakeholders trying to prevent new competition from coming into the market.  I wonder why these people didn't express these concerns oh...10 YEARS AGO!?!?  They have seen this plan for many, many years and only a few things have changed...and they are mostly aesthetics (aside from density issue).  But all in all, it is the same proposal and would have had these same issues 10 years ago (when it first started rolling along) as it does now.

 

This is why you should get involved in the planning process for projects.  At this point it is an example of NIMBYism downtown...grow up and realize that the world just doesn't work that way.

 

Sad, but true. NIMBYism for downtown by many of the companies and people that should be cheerleading this project as a boom for all. This is very short sighted by them.

What lack of parking are they talking about?  I see the new Kroger garage and QCS among recent projects. There are still the old surface lots and garages. 

 

I'd think businesses would want more residences and complementary businesses downtown.  People aren't coming to town (with their money) to look at the parking spaces between empty stadiums.

 

They folks at Rock Bottom should be screaming "SHUT UP!" They have been buried behind construction for far too long and survived.  What if they had held up fountain square for their short sighted concerns.

I just got finished emailing city council and the hamilton county commissioners stating that the last thing downtown needs is surface parking.  In order to counter the big business interests, I would encourage others to do the same before the upcoming vote. 

The obvious oversight here is that this whole project is being built on PARKING GARAGES!

...and? It's next to the river. It floods. Why would you want to place buildings where they can be flooded, when parking garages can be cleaned within a day's notice?

Sorry people, but I gotta say as a downtown worker, parking is miserable.  So it is a legitimate complaint, however, I'm not sure what took the business owners so long to voice their complaint.  This complaint should have been filed years ago.  This is one of the first things I thought of as I park in the lots by Roebling bridge.

 

If you ask anyone that doesn't live downtown why they don't come to downtown more often, their response is almost always "parking is a pain in the butt".  The city needs to do something about it and it is important to keep the downtown works in mind when planning.

Sorry people, but I gotta say as a downtown worker, parking is miserable.  So it is a legitimate complaint, however, I'm not sure what took the business owners so long to voice their complaint.  This complaint should have been filed years ago.  This is one of the first things I thought of as I park in the lots by Roebling bridge.

 

If you ask anyone that doesn't live downtown why they don't come to downtown more often, their response is almost always "parking is a pain in the butt".  The city needs to do something about it and it is important to keep the downtown works in mind when planning.

 

 

ut oh.

the light rail sure would have fixed that parking issue

>orry people, but I gotta say as a downtown worker, parking is miserable.  So it is a legitimate complaint, however, I'm not sure what took the business owners so long to voice their complaint.  This complaint should have been filed years ago.  This is one of the first things I thought of as I park in the lots by Roebling bridge.

 

 

The issue is not parking but parking that is a short walk from buildings.  A walk from Broadway Commons to Fountain Square takes 10 minutes at most.  It's nothing.  But people are damn lazy.  I work on the block north of the Aronoff Center and park either at Broadway Commons or at that garage on 9th next to the Phoenix which is $5 all-day.  The only reason I park at that garage is if I don't have singles to put in the things at Broadway.  And in fact I can and do walk to my building from my apartment in 35 minutes, it's a hair under 2 miles, which is only 5 or 6 minutes slower than the bus.  Today on the way to work I passed by a young lady singing to herself in French at 7:45am and on the way back I found a Noam Chomsky book on the sidewalk which will make good bird cage liner.               

 

Ditto. People have gotten so damn lazy, that a two block walk is a nightmare for many workers. And you wonder why Americans have the highest obesity rate in the world, and why our life expectancy is expected to _decrease_, one can only wonder. I walk a fair 6 miles a day, and bike at least 5 miles -- going to work and to school. A trip to the store adds another 3 miles to my bike route, and etc.

 

But oh no, we need a massive parking garage or lot so that one can park two doors down.

So where would you suggest people park if they work on 3rd st?  I'm not lazy but I don't want to walk from Broadway Commons to 3rd st.  And I used to walk over 10 blocks when I worked up by Central Pkwy.  There really aren't many good parking spots downtown unless you want to pay $15/day.

 

Now don't get me wrong, those lots on "The Banks" are an eye sore and I can't wait until they get rid of them.  However, I do hope that the planners take everyday business parking in consideration.  It really pisses me off when the Reds or Bengals have games which makes it impossible to find a parking spot because all the people who live outside the city can come and have a good tail-gaiting spot.  It'd be nice if they kept the people in mind who keep the CBD alive and well.

Sorry seicer, but I do not consider myself lazy.  I run almost everyday and bike every chance I get.  That doesn't mean I want to walk 10 blocks to my car in the winter time or when it is raining.  And there is a difference between walking 6 miles a day for pleasure and walking to/from parking when you just want to get home or get to work.

 

Tell me, why would a business and its' workers want to pay $75/month to walk 10 blocks to work when they could park for free with virtually no walk in the suburbs?  I'm not saying I would want to work in the 'burbs, I live in the City and wish I could live downtown.  I just think it would make sense to make parking downtown more feasible.

I'm not calling you lazy, Sal ... but to echo everyone else here, we have gotten so damn lazy. I used to walk everywhere. I've kind of gotten out of that habit, but I do walk quite a bit now.

 

We need to address parking issues, but we should be proud for having so few parking lots in our downtown. I look at some cities and just see wasted valuable space. 5th and Race is our biggest problem in my opinion.

As I understand it, the parking garages on which the Banks are being built will be available for parking (residents will have separate parking, or at least that used to be the plan, right?) 

 

And there are plenty of places around 3rd street for far less than $15.  The Western-Southern garage is 8.00/day max, and cheaper on a monthly basis. 

No one is calling you lazy Sal, and I was not inferring that in my post. But if you are complaining of a ten-block walk in the rain (which has been quite rare), do you complain when it is sunny? Or when there are available parking places closer? I'm sure that there are a LOT of parking garages and lots to choose from that are far closer than ten blocks.

 

You could also bike from the parking garage or wherever you park at -- a bike mount costs only a few hundred with trailer hitch, and you can easily ride to work, to lunch, or whereever. You could also purchase a miniature gas scooter with two wheels -- they are only a few hundred and can go up to 30 MPH.

 

We need to address parking issues, but not by constructing expensive parking garages at every corner that only detract from the streetscape. I'm sure that if commuters in NYC can handle walking in the rain, I'm sure anyone can.

...and? It's next to the river. It floods. Why would you want to place buildings where they can be flooded, when parking garages can be cleaned within a day's notice?

 

No, I'm saying that there will be more parking created when the garages are finished that workers can use. Is this correct?

Sorry, I misinterpreted your statement as saying that it was being built on parking garages in lieu of larger structures.

There isn't a parking problem downtown, there is a walking problem! People get frustrated if they can't get a space curbside. I have witnessed this & informed people about parking garages, but of course I hear the usual, it cost bla bla bla...

 

I know some people who work for one of the companies who manages some garages/lots & they will be the first ones to tell you there are always parking spaces available downtown.

Sorry people, but I gotta say as a downtown worker, parking is miserable.  So it is a legitimate complaint, however, I'm not sure what took the business owners so long to voice their complaint.  This complaint should have been filed years ago.  This is one of the first things I thought of as I park in the lots by Roebling bridge.

 

 

I have worked downtown for over nine years, but I have only lived down here for a year.  I never thought that parking was a pain in the butt.  Also, parking on the weekends and in the evenings is cheap or free for street parking.  I had a monthly parking pass for a garage, so whenever I came down on the weekends or evenings (which was often), I used my 24/7 parking pass.

 

If you ask anyone that doesn't live downtown why they don't come to downtown more often, their response is almost always "parking is a pain in the butt".  The city needs to do something about it and it is important to keep the downtown works in mind when planning.

 

I have a hard time taking the parking issue too seriously.  People don't seem to mind paying to park at Newport on the Levee and other places. 

As cincySAL said, the way things are pleasing to no one - even those who park there on a regular basis.  Just as The Banks will replace the parking it is reclaiming, I am sure other developments will as well, and we can replace surface parking with underground parking/surface retail.  However, by stalling every project that comes along due to parking concerns, we leave ourselves where we are now - with lots of problems...ugly land, no economic development, and poor public transportation options. 

 

As projects get developed in the urban core, not only is there the probability of more total parking spaces (as development moves vertical), but a much greater probability of integrated, well-designed mass transit - the real solution to this problem. 

Too many posts directed towards me to reply to all, but I'll try to cover some:

 

Would I complain when its sunny?  I'm not sure what the point of that question is, but sometimes, yes, walking over 10 blocks in work clothes in a Cincinnati summer can be down right miserable.

 

ohio1221: I guess it depends where downtown.  There is not sufficient parking around 3rd street if they remove the surface lots around the river.  Scripps building is pretty much at full capacity (not too mention it's $15/day).  Freedom Center has a long wait to get a monthly pass, and I don't think $8/day, as jdm00 states, is reasonable.  Over $160/month just for parking?  Too much for my little salary.

 

xumelanie: I come downtown on weekends as much as possible and it isn't too difficult to park.  But if you look at my earlier posts, my concern isn't for weekend parking, it's for everyday business people.  Those are the people that generate most of the money for the CBD.

 

I think people are missing my point.  I hate surface lots.  I just think it's a good idea to keep parking in mind when planning The Banks.  I know this city well enough to know that they often don't think things through.

nm

A parking problem implies a parking solution, what we really have is an access problem