If downtown Cincinnati is so congested and parking is such an issue maybe they do need some form of rapid transit....park at a park-and-ride lot in the suburbs and take the train to work.

 

 

^ A streetcar would certainly help.  The city actually looks like it is on the ball with this one.  Lets hope so.

I just think it's a good idea to keep parking in mind when planning The Banks.  I know this city well enough to know that they often don't think things through.

 

Isn't the plan to build the banks on top of parking garages?  After all, I thought that the funding for these garages was one of the reasons for the delays.  I don't understand why people think there will be less parking after the banks are built if they are building parking garages underneath it.

 

I come downtown on weekends as much as possible and it isn't too difficult to park.  But if you look at my earlier posts, my concern isn't for weekend parking, it's for everyday business people.  Those are the people that generate most of the money for the CBD.

 

I was responding to your point about people not coming downtown in general because of parking. 

Here are the typical complaints I've seen fielded at public meetings (and part of this is in reply to Jeffrey) --

 

1. Public transit costs money. Why should I use transit from a park-and-ride lot when it stops a few blocks from my apartment or work? (In reality, this means that they are too lazy to walk, can't shell out a dollar -- whereas a car is much more expensive to maintain -- or really do enjoy sitting in rush hour traffic.)

 

2. There is no parking downtown. (In reality, this means they don't want to pay for parking during prime time, or pay a reduced rate or for nothing during the evenings and nights. Or they don't want the 'hassle' of finding a public garage to park at. It's also unsafe to some, you know, because of all the muggers and rapists who come out at night. If it is two blocks away from their destination, it's too far of a walk.)

 

3. I can't fit my SUV in. (In reality... dammit, I've actually heard this lame excuse twice already. Woman complained that her GMC Yukon might not fit in a parking garage -- a fear that was unfounded if she would downsize, or perhaps measure the SUV and see if it even fits. All modern parking garages will fit a Yukon... maybe not in a typical parking space, since most large SUV drivers overlap.)

I wasn't directing my comment directly at you cincySAL. It was directed to anyone who thinks there is a parking problem.

 

Just for the record, I sold my Chevy conversion van (full size) before I came to Cincinnati. Didn't seem practical at the time but if I could do over I would have kept it, as I have caught myself looking at them... And I now have connections, if you know what I mean.  :wink:

...and? It's next to the river. It floods. Why would you want to place buildings where they can be flooded, when parking garages can be cleaned within a day's notice?

 

I'm pretty sure the garages would be flooded out when the river floods...primarily because the side of the garage will act as a flood wall (at least to my understanding).

 

Sorry people, but I gotta say as a downtown worker, parking is miserable.  So it is a legitimate complaint, however, I'm not sure what took the business owners so long to voice their complaint.  This complaint should have been filed years ago.  This is one of the first things I thought of as I park in the lots by Roebling bridge.

 

If you ask anyone that doesn't live downtown why they don't come to downtown more often, their response is almost always "parking is a pain in the butt".  The city needs to do something about it and it is important to keep the downtown works in mind when planning.

 

Couple comments...First off, from my experience most people that think Cincinnati has a parking problem haven't been to many other cities outside the area.  Try parking in a place like NYC, Boston, Chicago, DC, Philly, etc.  Parking is relatively cheap here and is much more available than in other metropolitan areas.

 

Secondly, zoning code requires typically more than the necessary parking for a development.  Now there are times where variances are requested to get around this (6th & Race Apts), but The Banks is not doing this.

 

 

As for some clarification on The Banks parking situation.  There will be parking garages, below grade, that are controlled by Hamilton County.  There will also be some above ground parking structures that will be controlled by the developers.  The above grade garages will serve a good portion of the new parking demand created by the development.  The below grade parking structures will help with any additional demand, for the project, and then some additional spaces.  So really what we are looking at is the total number of spaces total MINUS the number of spaces left over from what the project will demand.

 

My guess is that will be around 100 spaces or so.  This is purely a guestimation, but all in all I say that small of a number is well worth the addition of thousands of new residents, dozens and dozens of new retailers, a new hotel (or two) and potential the creation of hundreds if not thousands of new jobs for the center city and the region.

 

Also in terms of parking...here are the most recent findings from the DCI State of Downtown report:

 

Access & Parking

DCI surveys all downtown parking garage and lot operators on a quarterly basis

As of the end of first quarter 2007, there were 35,098 parking spaces in the CBD, [glow=yellow,2,300]with 5,713 monthly spaces available[/glow].  The average price for an available space in the CBD remained steady at [glow=yellow,2,300]$67 per month[/glow].  The southeast sector continues to be the tightest with only 275 monthly spaces available.

http://www.gototown.com/PDFs/2Q_07_State_of_Downtown.pdf

There are spots in downtown where finding parking is a pain and if your company doesn't subsidize the cost of parking a little it can get very expensive. One thing to remember is that walking cities generally had awnings or inset doorways spread pretty evenly throughout the city so you could duck under them in inclement weather. Downtowns can be rather unpleasant as the canyons exacerbate the weather aspect.

 

Personally, complaining about parking is a sign of total desperation and seems to reveal the real reason why the Banks hasn't moved forward. There are people around who clearly have no interest in something happening there. They liked it just fine when it was a food distribution area and some bars to service the stadium. 

TAside from mass transit, one very easy cure for parking is to build garages instead of surface lots.  You can triple capacity by building a garage and they are not THAT expensive.  they are also much more apealing to the eye than surface lots. Thats just my 2 cents.

Garages, on average, cost ~$7,000 per parking space. A 1,200-space garage can easily cost in excess of $8 million -- which includes land acquisition and construction. Someone mentioned an underground parking garage, which effectively doubles the cost of a traditional structure (e.g. Shelbourne Plaza, Lexington, KY). It's _far_ more costly than a surface lot, which costs on average, ~$1,500 per parking space.

 

Of course, it is cheaper for people to take the bus in, or to bike, or even walk.

Garages, on average, cost ~$7,000 per parking space.

 

That sounds low.  I heard that garages are usually $15,000 per spot, and the underground ones can cost more towards $30,000 per spot.

I understand people's concerns over parking.  My mother used to work downtown when I was a kid and the parking was ridiculously expensive (for our budget at the time).  She ended up switching to the bus because it didn't take that much longer than driving and was a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for parking, gas, wear & tear, etc.  Thankfully, we lived near a bus route.

 

I think that our current parking issues are really just a side effect of two major problems that Cincinnati has suffered for years.  1) Too much of the population lives outside of the city and 2) Our transit system is woefully inadequate.  If more people lived downtown, they could walk to work.  The streetcar should help with that.  If we had a light rail system, people could take that instead of driving.  The perception is that buses are filthy and sit in the same traffic that cars do.  Hopefully, the streetcar will spur interest in a regional rail system of some sort.

 

I think the last thing we need downtown is more parking lots, but I sympathize with people that currently must drive.  I think the fear isn't that The Banks won't include it's own parking, but rather that if demand exceeds expectations, parking will be at even more of a premium when it is too late to add additional spaces.  Hopefully, while they're digging, they'll add more spaces than they think they'll need.  Hopefully, the existence of The Banks itself will ease parking issues, since a large percentage of people living there will be downtown workers that no longer drive to the office, freeing up parking in lots around the entire CBD.  Time will tell.

 

Edit:  I understand from Rando's post above that having "extra" parking is required by the zoning.  What I meant to indicate is that I hope they add a little more than the bare minimum dictated by the requirement.  Though it would be expensive, it's easier to do this while you're already digging and pouring than to work something out several years down the road.  Plus, the extra parking would be a valuable asset during festivals like Oktoberfest and in odd occasions when events overlap with Reds and Bengals games.

Garages, on average, cost ~$7,000 per parking space.

 

That sounds low.  I heard that garages are usually $15,000 per spot, and the underground ones can cost more towards $30,000 per spot.

 

From the data I pulled (a simple query), $15,000 was more of a high-end per parking space. Even so, parking garages are very expensive, and they detract from the streetscape substantially.

seicer, they detract from the streetscape a lot less than a surface lot.  A lot.  If the the exterior is a red brick and the sidewalk and immediate surrounds are landscaped, it actually can look quite nice.  As for the cost,  doesn't the city make it up in parking fees?

I bet building something like this wouldn't cost much and it looks super modern to me.

 

lmao

I agree with a previous statement by someone earlier. People are to lazy to walk and want to park right on the street in front of their building.  If these people would stop eating Mcdonalds in the morning on their way to work they wouldn't feel sick and need a bathroom ASAP. There is plenty of parking downtown.  Stay off the Mctriple sausage gravy & egg biscuits!

If these people would stop eating Mcdonalds in the morning on their way to work they wouldn't feel sick and need a bathroom ASAP. Stay off the Mctriple sausage gravy & egg biscuits!

 

I laughed hard at this  :-D

 

LesterLyles: Yes, they are more pleasant to look at than a surface lot, but they still detract from the streetscape. Most do not come included with storefronts on the ground floor (or as some in Louisville have it, second and third floor offices, with faux windows on the remainder). Instead, you have a blank canvas for up to half a block or more.

 

Ugly:

 

Has vegetation and some interesting styles to keep the ugliness at bay:

 

One with storefronts and some nice designs:

 

Ugh:

^ The weirdest one I've ever encountered is next to Powell's Books in Portland, OR.  It's not like any garage I've ever seen.  On the outside, it's an 80+ year old building, complete with windows, brick walls, etc.  But on the inside it's like any other garage, just a lot tighter.  Parking must have been the original intent of the structure, because I can't imagine that modifying an old building that heavily would be financially feasible for parking, particularly given that it didn't have that many spaces in it.  I wish I had a picture of the inside, because it was just weird parking in that thing.  It looked nicer from the outside than most garages, probably because back when it was built, garages weren't that different from normal buildings.  But that came as a surprise to me, because I'd never seen a garage that old before.

For modern, the Europeans know how to build a parking garage. The parking garage on 4th is AWFUL.

 

People sleep on it, because it's hidden in plain sight, but the garage on 7th across from the Aronoff looks great from the street.

^ The weirdest one I've ever encountered is next to Powell's Books in Portland, OR.  It's not like any garage I've ever seen.  On the outside, it's an 80+ year old building, complete with windows, brick walls, etc.  But on the inside it's like any other garage, just a lot tighter.  Parking must have been the original intent of the structure, because I can't imagine that modifying an old building that heavily would be financially feasible for parking, particularly given that it didn't have that many spaces in it.  I wish I had a picture of the inside, because it was just weird parking in that thing.  It looked nicer from the outside than most garages, probably because back when it was built, garages weren't that different from normal buildings.  But that came as a surprise to me, because I'd never seen a garage that old before.

 

I think it's in Detroit or STL, but there is a garage retrofitted in an old theater. :(

Southern Germany (Stuttgart, Ulm, Munich, Tubingen, Baden) had some of the best parking garage systems I've seen. As you drive into the Altstadt (old town) or Zentrum (center) there was big signs telling how much parking was available in the parking garages that ringed the medieval center or just the center area. The garages were massive running 1000+ spots in a couple towns and fully automated (like the Fountain Square was supposed to be).

Tell me, why would a business and its' workers want to pay $75/month to walk 10 blocks to work when they could park for free with virtually no walk in the suburbs?  I'm not saying I would want to work in the 'burbs, I live in the City and wish I could live downtown.  I just think it would make sense to make parking downtown more feasible.

 

Parking in the suburbs isn't "free".

 

Example. Pope Construction Co. wants to build a 10,000 Sq Ft Office building. Local Zoning Requires 1 Spot per 100 Sq Ft. Pope has to buy additional land to accommodate parking . Price of construction goes up. Ergo, cost of the building own/lease goes up, that cost is passed on to the tenant/future owner.

 

When I take the bus to the suburban mall, I'm subsidizing your parking experience. Pope Management has to charge more per Sq Ft to keep up with the costs of maintaining the thousands of parking spots(auto dominated zoning/society). UncleRando's Boutique has to charge more for his widgets to make up for his increased rent. We pay the same price for the widgets, even though a component of the costs is driven by the need for parking.

1) Too much of the population lives outside of the city and 2) Our transit system is woefully inadequate.

 

Actually if you live AND work in the city limits Cincinnati has a pretty terrific bus system.  Unfortunately people are leaving Avondale, Walnut Hills, Madisonville, etc. to rot and new businesses outside I-275 are very difficult to reach by bus.  For example there's only one bus per day to and from the Shumacher-Dugan Industrial Park (between I-275 and Union Center Blvd.) from Fountain Square.  One would literally have to get up at 5:00am to take a bus downtown then transfer to that one outbound bus AND get off work in time to get that one bus back.  And it's a zone 3 bus to boot which means it's $4 or $5 round trip.       

 

I agree with a previous statement by someone earlier. People are to lazy to walk and want to park right on the street in front of their building.  If these people would stop eating Mcdonalds in the morning on their way to work they wouldn't feel sick and need a bathroom ASAP. There is plenty of parking downtown.  Stay off the Mctriple sausage gravy & egg biscuits!

 

Sorry, this argument doesn't hold water.  I know everyone on here wants a street car, right?  Why?  Can't you just walk or are you too lazy?

 

Again, I'm not lazy, but walking over 10 blocks or paying $160/month just isn't practicable.  I've thought about biking but I own a mountain bike.  The bus is a pain in the ass as I am the last stop in Madisonville.

 

The problem I see is that the first thing that gets torn up are the lots along the river.  It will take a couple years to get any garages up so where does everyone park in the meantime.  Hopefully they can figure it out and plan for it.  That's all I was saying in my first post.

 

Parking in the suburbs isn't "free".

 

Example. Pope Construction Co. wants to build a 10,000 Sq Ft Office building. Local Zoning Requires 1 Spot per 100 Sq Ft. Pope has to buy additional land to accommodate parking . Price of construction goes up. Ergo, cost of the building own/lease goes up, that cost is passed on to the tenant/future owner.

 

When I take the bus to the suburban mall, I'm subsidizing your parking experience. Pope Management has to charge more per Sq Ft to keep up with the costs of maintaining the thousands of parking spots(auto dominated zoning/society). UncleRando's Boutique has to charge more for his widgets to make up for his increased rent. We pay the same price for the widgets, even though a component of the costs is driven by the need for parking.

 

You could really say this about anything.  Nothing in life is free, right?  When you come downtown you use city roads, which cost money, which ends up costing the taxpayer who ends up inflating their prices to make up for it.  This example could be used for anything.  Either way, it is still a lot cheaper than coming downtown.  I wish it wasn't, the more people downtown the better.  I hate the 'burbs, trust me.

You could really say this about anything.  Nothing in life is free, right?  When you come downtown you use city roads, which cost money, which ends up costing the taxpayer who ends up inflating their prices to make up for it.  This example could be used for anything.  Either way, it is still a lot cheaper than coming downtown.  I wish it wasn't, the more people downtown the better.  I hate the 'burbs, trust me.

 

You should really look up cost allocations for downtown / urbanized areas versus suburban and exurban areas. The less density that a region has, the higher the cost is per resident for infrastructure construction and improvements. Think of it this way:

 

Take a 10 square mile city. Spread a suburban landscape across the entire map, with businesses surrounded by a sea of parking lots, six-lane boulevards in between, and 1-acre housing lots. Light industry surrounded by lush green grass. The distance between each house, industry and business is quite a lot -- adding up to some serious $$$ for infrastructure, such as underground utilities (gas, electric, sewer, water, storm water), for water retention systems, for paving (12' lanes on six-lane boulevards serving a disproportionate amount of traffic), and so on.

 

Then spread a dense CBD or residential district. Businesses with on-street parking, or with a communal parking garage somewhere nearby. Industry in multi-story buildings, or buildings whose space is maximized. Narrow streets abound, with the occasional main thoroughfare. Dense apartment complexes and condominiums, rowhouses/townhouses, and 6-7 per acre housing lots. The distance between each apartment and condo complex, rowhouse/townhouse, and single family house is very minimal, same goes for industry and businesses. Paving costs are far less. Same for infrastructure, since you can fit _more_ people in _less space_, thus reducing the costs overall.

 

In other words --

This costs more per resident

This costs less

 

I can provide some reliable citations for that, but it is pretty much spoken word.

^somewhere, someone on Mesa Verda Ct., is having buyer's remorse.

 

and...

 

my mom warned me not to go north of liberty on google maps.

^^ Are you telling me that the cost of living is greater in the suburbs than in the city, specifically the CBD and surrounding areas?  I have a hard time believing that.

^^ Are you telling me that the cost of living is greater in the suburbs than in the city, specifically the CBD and surrounding areas?  I have a hard time believing that.

 

the cost of extending out the water lines for a square mile with a density of 100/sqmi versus 8000 sqmi?

 

 

Water, gas, sewer, fiber optics, cable, storm drain. And then you have the suburbanites who clamor for underground utilities all-around, which only adds to the _public_ cost. Most counties, cities and townships have yet to install developer impact fees to recoup some of these costs.

 

See the full NG Cary, NC article. Here is a sample.

The American Dream: Urban Sprawl. NG article. sample, but it is mainly about southwestern Ohio and Cinci's sprawl.

Estimating Hedonic Models of Consumer Demand with an Application to Urban Sprawl

cincySAL -- if you're looking for parking near 3rd street and don't mind walking a little, you might try the East Garage.  I believe it's still $3.50/day. 

I've heard that suburbanites pay less for roads (they get less wear-and-tear in sprawling residential areas) and they pay less for schools since people in suburbs tend to have less kids on average. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that or if it's enough to override the cost of utilities (my guess is that it isnt.)

I've heard that suburbanites pay less for roads (they get less wear-and-tear in sprawling residential areas) and they pay less for schools since people in suburbs tend to have less kids on average. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that or if it's enough to override the cost of utilities (my guess is that it isnt.)

 

Where did you hear this?  Some of the suburbs face a lot of road congestion.  Also, some townships do have very high property taxes because of the schools.

cincySAL -- if you're looking for parking near 3rd street and don't mind walking a little, you might try the East Garage.  I believe it's still $3.50/day. 

 

Thanks for the heads up.  I actually park in Lot D for $3/day and it's not a bad walk at all.  My only concern before was if they take out these lots for the Banks.  Where exactly is East Garage?  Is it by the so called Transit center?

I've heard that suburbanites pay less for roads (they get less wear-and-tear in sprawling residential areas) and they pay less for schools since people in suburbs tend to have less kids on average. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that or if it's enough to override the cost of utilities (my guess is that it isnt.)

 

Where did you hear this?  Some of the suburbs face a lot of road congestion.  Also, some townships do have very high property taxes because of the schools.

 

Just from researching various articles online from both sides of the spectrum. There are a lot of people that will defend suburbs until the death so a lot of random excuses come up. The main roads are congested but the residential streets usually are not (part of the problem) as there is no access in cul-de-sac land. They also argue that there is less crime, and thus, alleviating some of the policing cost for taxpayers.

 

Sorry if this is too off topic-- I'd love to see this debunked, even if it has to be moved to another thread.

People sleep on it, because it's hidden in plain sight, but the garage on 7th across from the Aronoff looks great from the street.

 

you beat me to it, I believe it is called the olympic and they vallet park for you.

I agree with a previous statement by someone earlier. People are to lazy to walk and want to park right on the street in front of their building. If these people would stop eating Mcdonalds in the morning on their way to work they wouldn't feel sick and need a bathroom ASAP. There is plenty of parking downtown. Stay off the Mctriple sausage gravy & egg biscuits!

 

Sorry, this argument doesn't hold water. I know everyone on here wants a street car, right? Why? Can't you just walk or are you too lazy?

 

Again, I'm not lazy, but walking over 10 blocks or paying $160/month just isn't practicable. I've thought about biking but I own a mountain bike. The bus is a pain in the ass as I am the last stop in Madisonville.

 

The problem I see is that the first thing that gets torn up are the lots along the river. It will take a couple years to get any garages up so where does everyone park in the meantime. Hopefully they can figure it out and plan for it. That's all I was saying in my first post.

 

try the 12x it goes from the last stop on the 69 (around madison and kenwood) to downtown in about 35 minutes, you can read the paper or sleep on the way in.

Actually, I think a separate topic on suburban and urban cost analysis would be great. Once I dig up my old magazines or find it on JSTOR (would it be a journal?), I can find some specific page numbers.

Again, I'm not lazy, but walking over 10 blocks or paying $160/month just isn't practicable.  I've thought about biking but I own a mountain bike.  The bus is a pain in the ass as I am the last stop in Madisonville.

 

I understand your concern (not saying that I agree with it, but I understand it).  Many people feel the way you do, and your opinion certainly should be valued...but I just don't know how anyone could please you.  You say you support getting rid of surface lots and that you support the revitalization of downtown...but at the same time you don't want to temporarily lose your parking space for this progress?!?!

 

How is Hamilton County supposed to provide relief parking while new garages are built where those lots currently sit?  Would you like them to buy up some properties, tear down buildings and then provide some additional cheap parking for you?  I'm being serious, because there just aren't a hell of a lot of options out there.  With progress comes some inconvenience...suck it up in the short term, and we will benefit greatly in the long run.

 

BTW, I don't get where your $160/month comment comes from...DCI lists the average monthly parking cost at $67.  That's a far cry from what you're stating.

the downtowner always used to have a parking round up in their paper, I don't know if they do but their website probably does.

 

aside: randy update your blog.

aside: randy update your blog.

 

I've been planning on it...school has been killing me lately.  Not to mention it has been controlling my thoughts, and keeping original content from flowing towards UrbanCincy.  I'll get something up tonight though...

Sorry, this argument doesn't hold water.  I know everyone on here wants a street car, right?  Why?  Can't you just walk or are you too lazy?

 Walking to Findlay Market would be over 16 blocks from the river (one way) AND you would have to carry your groceries back.  And no I'm not going to take the bus with smelly people, I would rather walk and that's why I do since there is no Streetcar yet.

The Banks..Who needs it?

BY TOM JOSEPH | DOWNTOWNER

October 9, 2007

 

DOWNTOWN - It's been like watching corporate and political ping pong. He hit the ball. She hit it back. He hit the ball; she hit it back. He hit the ball; she hit it back.

 

"They" have plans to build the Banks; no, "they" don't have plans to build the Banks. They have funding to build the Banks; no, they don't have funding to build the Banks...

 

Well, I agreed the first part of the article. Watching The Banks development ping and pong back and forth is quite confusing, and anyone who tries to keep track will likely be confused.

 

^^ Maximillian: Please define "smelly people," because it can be construed very much in the wrong way. I take the bus regularly, and I have no encounters with "smelly people." I carry groceries on the bus with no problem; I also load them onto my bike carrier with little hassle, and all it takes is a little bit of leg strength to get home. I'm sure people can manage... unless you like shopping at mega marts like Sam's Club, in which your only choice of getting home is an SUV.

Maximillian: Please define "smelly people," because it can be construed very much in the wrong way. I take the bus regularly, and I have no encounters with "smelly people."

 

 

Ok if you want me to tell you, I once had a gentleman with CRAP literally LEAKING out of his pants onto my part of the seat of the bus, you can kinda imagine the smell.. Another time, A nice woman in a tank top decided to let her hairy armpits "breathe" and she extended her arms outward behind my seat. I can go on and on but I don't want to gross out the other forumers.  Both of these particular times mentioned. Route 4 to Evanston from Reading Rd. 

We definitely have our share of smelly people on the bus. The smell of body odor and alcohol will make you want to vomit.

 

The 4 is the absolute WORST lol.

Rare occurances or over-exaggerations. It's not as if the hundreds of times I've been on a bus that I catch people deficating all over themselves or people with "hairy" armpits "breathe" all over. You could have approached the woman and told her that her armpits reeked of some foul odor and that she could have closed them, or you could have just toughed it out instead of complaining about a "foul" smell.

 

As for the poor man crapping all over himself, that's very unfortunate but it is probably not his fault. I know of a nice gentleman that had a bowel control issue that was brought on by some medication he was taking, and he was forced to wear diapers -- when he could find a place to change them, they were clean.

 

All isolated incidents though. Millions ride the bus, subway, tram, etc. daily with _no_ problem. Especially with the man crapping himself episode. Hairy armpits? Who cares!

Maximillian: Please define "smelly people," because it can be construed very much in the wrong way. I take the bus regularly, and I have no encounters with "smelly people."

 

 

Ok if you want me to tell you, I once had a gentleman with CRAP literally LEAKING out of his pants onto my part of the seat of the bus, you can kinda imagine the smell.. Another time, A nice woman in a tank top decided to let her hairy armpits "breathe" and she extended her arms outward behind my seat. I can go on and on but I don't want to gross out the other forumers.  Both of these particular times mentioned. Route 4 to Evanston from Reading Rd.

 

WHAT!?!?!  That is simply amazing!

Hey, the 17 is pretty rough. In the winter some of the folks have been on the bus since Northgate Mall by the time I get on in Clifton. Unfortunately in many cities the bus systems (outside of rush hour) are the hangout-places for the poor and mentally ill. The problem is not with the buses per se but with an American society that doesn't have any better place for these people to be.