October 31, 200717 yr Today at approximately 10:45am: Worth noting that the riverfront parking lots look nowhere close to being full, and at the exact same time have a look to the northeast: I've always suspected that the parking whiners were just that; this is the first time I confirmed my suspicions from the Carew Tower's unblinking vantage point.
October 31, 200717 yr I've never seen them (at the future Banks) full except during game days or riverfront events. A lack of parking my butt.
October 31, 200717 yr ^Yeah well just watch someone turn it around and say "well that's because downtown's losing jobs" or whatever. I had somebody with three college degrees swearing to me last week that the office vacancy rate downtown is 50%, that "entire skyscrapers are empty".
October 31, 200717 yr Taking on two capital projects that will cost $50+ million is going to be tough on the capital budget... If the city had to make the tough decision, which is more important: the Banks or the streetcar? The Banks only because it has been so drawn out. Failure to get it done now will most likely kill the chances of anything happening there for years to come because it would have that stigma attached to it. ^The above argument is contrary to basic economics. The sunk costs involved in the years of planning for the Banks project are not relevant to Cramer's question, since they exist regardless of whatever options are chosen 1) do both, 2) do the Banks at the cost of the streetcar, 3) do the streetcar at the cost of the Banks, 4) do neither. With all of these choices, the former planning and deal-making that has been going on for the past ten years is already a spent cost that cannot be retrieved. The only relevant question is, if a choice must be made between the two, which of the two would have the greatest economic impact. In my opinion, the streetcar is far more important than the Banks (and a pre-existing streetcar would, I believe, strengthen a future Banks construction). Imagine it this way- it's 1985 and you've been doing 3 months of planning on whether you should invest $5,000 in AT&T or GE. Right before you decide, this buddy of yours tells you about this new company called Microsoft that his numbers show will be a killer investment. Should you dismiss his suggestion for the simple reason that you've already spent 3 months doing all this research on the other two companies? It's admittedly a crude example, but do you get it? I'd go with that logic generally. The one aspect that makes the Banks different from nearly any other development is the whole issue of getting the garages built to lift it all out of the flood plain. Just to see those finished would give me more confidence than any other construction along the river. With the garages development need only go up, otherwise we are always waiting for capital to top off the holes in the ground.
October 31, 200717 yr I knew they weren't happy with my phone calls but I didn't think they would respond that quick! :wink2:
October 31, 200717 yr Today at approximately 10:45am: Whats wrong with the noky skyline? It doesn't look right!
October 31, 200717 yr Oh, that's where I overlapped the two photos. I spent about 2 minutes on it instead of the 10 or so to do a better job. And one of the 400X400ft. blocks on the riverfront is shrunk down to about 400X100ft., making the riverfront area appear smaller than it is.
October 31, 200717 yr ^ I was wondering why I never noticed that the IRS building is right next to The Ascent! :-D
October 31, 200717 yr The developers said they’ve been making rounds to many local architectural firms in the past few months to discuss the project. The developers say they want the Banks to reflect Cincinnati, so it will be "designed by Cincinnati, in Cincinnati for Cincinnati," said Pope. So is it safe to assume that the buildings depicted in the current Banks renderings are just place holders that are intended to show the type and scale of the buildings that will be built, but arent the actual designs? If so, this is good news. Not a big fan of the buildings in the renderings.
October 31, 200717 yr Why this obsession with an ESPN Zone? It's like wanting a Planet Hollywood or Hard Rock. I'm all for a killer sports bar down there, it's a natural fit. But espn zone.... Eh. I agree. I have been to the ESPNZone in Atlanta. Its has nice tvs, but that is about the only thing good I can say about it. Its stale and cheap. It is designed for people to sit by themselves and stare at a game. It isnt conducive to a rowdy fan atmosphere. If we need a national sportsbar chain in the Banks I would much prefer the design of a Champs or BW3s.
October 31, 200717 yr ESPN Zones are more than just sports bars. They usually have a large gaming area, one that would be larger and better than what is offered at Gameworks. If an ESPN Zone opens in the first phase of The Banks I give Gameworks until 2013 before they close their doors.
October 31, 200717 yr BW3s is played out everywhere. While they may be nice, you can find them in almost every mid-sized town that has a nice gaming atmosphere. ESPN Zones are far fewer in numbers. Personally, I want to see Ted's Montana Grill in there. Very nice interiors and great food.
October 31, 200717 yr An upperscale sports bar would be nice. NY used to have Park Avenue Country Club (was a sports bar, not a country club) which was really nice and I can picture something like that in the Banks.
October 31, 200717 yr I agree. I have been to the ESPNZone in Atlanta. Its has nice tvs, but that is about the only thing good I can say about it. Its stale and cheap. It is designed for people to sit by themselves and stare at a game. It isnt conducive to a rowdy fan atmosphere. If we need a national sportsbar chain in the Banks I would much prefer the design of a Champs or BW3s. Champs is a decent place, but BW3 is way too small. I wouldn't be surprised to see a BW3 somewhere at/near The Banks eventually, but what I'm hoping for is something with much higher capacity. The sort of place where, if the Reds or Bengals are in the playoffs, you know where the party is at for those of us without tickets. A friend of mine wanted to go to BW3 for wings, and to watch a college football game a few weeks ago. We gave up after trying 2 locations that had zero open tables, and knowing that no one would leave until the game was over. If you could put in a BW3 that was about 3 or 4 times the size of the tiny surburban version, it might be better suited for what I'm imagining. But could that type of restaraunt do enough business on "normal" days to sustain that kind of space? I don't know. Maybe several smaller bars would be better. The good news is that we're finally going to have SOMETHING there, which is better than the mud hole we have now. I'm getting really excited about this. BW3s is played out everywhere. While they may be nice, you can find them in almost every mid-sized town that has a nice gaming atmosphere. ESPN Zones are far fewer in numbers. As long as they don't put in a Hard Rock Cafe, I'll be happy.
October 31, 200717 yr BW3s I am not a fan. However if someone wants to front the money for a Frickers or Roosters franchise I'm there and I'll help you run the place :) And it doesn't have to be on the Banks: In the great old buildings at 3rd & Main, in the old Uno's, on 6th by the old Maisonette, etc., former Majana space . . .
October 31, 200717 yr It would be nice if somehow they could accommodate something with a local flavor, Christian Moerlein Brew House? Would a thousand people front a $100 each to do that and own a tiny peice? It would be cool to find out.
October 31, 200717 yr A Ted's Montana Grill would be AWESOME. I've been to the one in Cbus a couple times. DELICIOUS
October 31, 200717 yr Christian Moerlein ale haus would defiantly be ideal. Something with great local flavor, but i think something like that would be best suited in OTR, possibly in the old Jackson Brewery
October 31, 200717 yr Gripes over Banks quieted City, county vote Thursday on $1 billion development BY JESSICA BROWN | [email protected] As Hamilton County Commissioners and Cincinnati City Council prepare to vote Thursday on the Banks project, it appears the most vocal opposition has faded away. A group of downtown building owners that has for weeks been lobbying against certain aspects of the project, said Tuesday they feel their concerns have been, or will eventually be, addressed... www.enquirer.com
October 31, 200717 yr ^ Now, let's get this biotch rolling! I want to see some serious mud slinging! (In a productive manner, of course!)
November 1, 200717 yr This is strong... The Banks, Part III: Our secret, our slippery little secret BY TOM JOSEPH | DOWNTOWNER GUEST COMMENTARY Putting together the Banks Project has been an ordeal that's because the Market always tells you when you're wrongOur Leaders never listen; rarely do they learn. There is no financial sense to what has been proposed. For 10 years, the Market has spoken. The finished product looks slick as depicted in the artist's various renditions, but the foundation is so flawed that no matter which way the project group moves, another problem arises. The Banks is our local "Whack A Mole" and could very easily be called "The Banks O'Cards", same difference. Mentioning the foundation was figurative, not literal.but because of the project placement on the Ohio River, it could very easily turn out to be both ways... The views and opinions expressed in this column are not necessarily those of the Downtowner management or staff.
November 1, 200717 yr Banks plan addresses concerns By Joe Wessels Post staff report Downtown building owners said they are now happy with the development plan for The Banks riverfront project. Joe Trauth, a lawyer representing the owners of several downtown buildings, said that he feels his clients have been heard and does not foresee that they will file legal challenges to the long-delayed 18-acre, nearly $1 billion development between Great American Ball Park and Paul Brown Stadium... http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071031/NEWS01/710310364
November 1, 200717 yr For 10 years, the Market has spoken. I thought that it was a disagreement between the city and county, not market forces, that has stalled the Banks to date. My guess is that if the governement pulled out, the land would be developed very quickly. Mentioning the foundation was figurative, not literal.but because of the project placement on the Ohio River, it could very easily turn out to be both ways. It is called The Banks and not The Peak. I think that people understand the flood plain issue and are putting a much lusted after parking structure there. It seems incredible that hundreds of millions of the taxpayers' dollars will be poured into this project and no one from Mr. Castellini on down knows what is being built. Not one person. By the time that the money is spent, people will know exactly. Part of the money being spent is developing those exact plans. You can't get specifics without paying for them. It's a fact that is not Banks specific, but happens with all large projects. It's being done on the Southside of the river by local guys; why not here? Please explain that one to me! My understanding is that it is from County and City joint management of the land...or market forces. ...the people who would be willing to buy into The Banks, would be white, 35 to 55 years old, and earn a lot of money. No group on Earth would rather be "Downtown but not really Downtown." Well, that's probably true. Sad, but true. The reality is that when they move in and are part of a more diverse community, they may like what is "really downtown". Hopefully FWW will be capped and the Banks and the CBD will be more integrated than a "gated community". Not many gated communities are connected to more diverse areas by a streetcar. That is a clear difference. How will The Banks not compete with the present Downtown area and siphon away money, population and energy? The economy is not a zero sum game. If the rich white people come in from West Chester and spend more in downtown/Banks, both can win. If there is a loser, which I doubt, it is likely to be Chili's in Mason. We can and should do better by focusing on and completing the re-birth of Downtown, with the Critical Mass that has been created in the four blocks from every direction around Fountain Square. That is where our efforts should remain. We know that. The Banks does that. Also, isn't The Banks is within 4 blocks of fountain square (5th-4=Pete Rose Way?). The opposite, not building the Banks, does not add that Critical Mass. In fact, it creates the image that downtown as a whole can't get their act together. People who don't live downtown do not separate downtown, OTR, The Banks, and any bad news. If you doubt that, watch the political add implying gunfire on the riverfront. There must be an integrate development policy that can take advantage of the obvious momentum that surrently exists. The Banks, streetcars, and Fountain Square development are all part of that vision.
November 1, 200717 yr Instead of a Bw3 or ESPN zone, how about Chad Johnson's Grill with replica gold teeth available in the gift shop.
November 1, 200717 yr I think its pretty clear the downtown guys knew what they were doing and how it was going to play out. Wait until it was basically sealed and delivered, remind the new guys who runs this town, and then graciously let it go on. The goal all along to was to exert enough pressure to get some promises made but not so much that it would scare off the developers. If only we could all be such playas.
November 1, 200717 yr ESPN Zones are more than just sports bars. They usually have a large gaming area, one that would be larger and better than what is offered at Gameworks. If an ESPN Zone opens in the first phase of The Banks I give Gameworks until 2013 before they close their doors. no they are exactly sports bars, chain corporate sports bars to cater to monopolistic corporate sports.
November 1, 200717 yr Calling in expert builders from as far away as Atlanta to build a stadium or, perhaps, a cargo sorting facility, I can understand. Those are a very specialized type of construction. But, condos and offices? Nobody around these parts can do that? Let me give an extra large box of Legos to my little friends, Jake, 6, and Daniel, 4, and they would put it up in a few months. This, however, is not child's play. Every decision, every change and every shift in the wind is met by the curse of the North Bank. It's being done on the Southside of the river by local guys; why not here? Please explain that one to me! This entire paragraph bothers me. Both developers and architects have proven time and time again that they are incapable of producing buildings that are worth a damn. 1. The only architecturally noteworthy projects in NKY are the Ascent and Southshore. Even they do not enhance their respective communities in any way at ground level. 2. The Lego analogy scares the hell out of me because it seems to be the philosphy to which most architects subscribe these days. To hell with porportion, to hell with scale, to hell with humanistic materials! Let's shock people! 3. Show me a local architecture firm capable of designing lasting architecture and I'll eat my hat.
November 1, 200717 yr Typical Enquirer negative spin...... Banks a go? Not yet 'Contingencies' could still stall development BY GREGORY KORTE | [email protected] No one's ordering the ceremonial gold groundbreaking shovels just yet. To be sure, today's all-but-certain passage of agreements on the redevelopment of Cincinnati's riverfront will put the long-awaited project closer to construction than it's ever been in its turbulent decade-long history. But before the first shovel of dirt can be turned, a number of issues - called "contingencies" in the agreements - must still be resolved... http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071101/NEWS01/711010376/1077/COL02
November 1, 200717 yr First of all, why is this in the Fountain Square thread. Second, who is this whack job who is a guest columnist for the Downtowner (which is supposed to be pro downtown, they had Mr. Negativity Jim Selonick for so long, I guess I got used to his negative slant on everything downtown).
November 1, 200717 yr I think its pretty clear the downtown guys knew what they were doing and how it was going to play out. Wait until it was basically sealed and delivered, remind the new guys who runs this town, and then graciously let it go on. The goal all along to was to exert enough pressure to get some promises made but not so much that it would scare off the developers. If only we could all be such playas. Well Put! I had too much booz last night! Am I overlooking a time that this vote will take place today?
November 1, 200717 yr The vote is to take place in roughly one hour from now (1pm). Get your confetti ready.
November 1, 200717 yr First of all, why is this in the Fountain Square thread. Whoops...I had no idea I posted this in the Fountain Square thread. It was meant to go in The Banks discussion thread. Could an admin please clean this up and move the related comments to The Banks discussion thread?
November 1, 200717 yr Finally!! Banks approved; 'An incredible thing' BY JESSICA BROWN | [email protected] Cincinnati and Hamilton County governments have approved the Banks agreements, paving the way for the project to begin. The voting —which took several minutes due to the multiple pieces of legislation —were greeted by a hearty round of applause. The votes were unanimous. Commissioner Pat DeWine was unable to participate because of a potential conflict of interest involving his law firm. Elected officials termed it a historic occasion. Each took several moments to thank the Banks Working Group, the city-county body charged with jump-starting the project-- for getting things done. They also thanked each other for their roles, and the community for their patience. [...] FOR MORE INFO, VISIT: www.enquirer.com
November 1, 200717 yr Enquirer is saying early next year and WCPO is saying late Fall. Late Fall sounds greeeaaat! Don't know how accurate or realistic that is though!
November 1, 200717 yr why would it be either early next year or late fall '08? If its delayed, wouldn't be spring or summer or even early fall? If hey are saying "late" I assume they mean 07...which sounds impossible.
November 1, 200717 yr cincinnati.com readers comment on what would bring them down to the banks http://frontier.cincinnati.com/comments/threadview.asp?threadid=419
Create an account or sign in to comment