Really, my primary concern is that they lay a good foundation because let's face it the buildings aren't probably going to be there for a 100 years. Lay a good foundation and in another 25 years the site can be reinvented. But that's a topic for another day.

 

 

 

Weedrose, this is a particularly dangerous attitude. We shouldn't be designing and building structures ESPECIALLY AT THIS SCALE, to last for only 25 years! This project will be successful if it attains LASTING SIGNIFICANCE. If it does not, it will be viewed as another failure for Cincinnati, and it will be a huge zit on the face of our city, which other cities will laugh at for the next however long it takes to get the political will to spend another vast amount of money to demolish and rebuild. I've said this several times on this forum, and I'm glad to see that Council member Qualls agrees with me, and that the design review board is doing their job.

 

Civik: Cole+Russel MAY be capable of good designs, but they sure as heck have not been demonstrating that for a long time. They are the Walmart of Cincinnati architectural firms. How the exact team that produced the unorganized fiasco of a building that is the new SCPA in historic OTR got the largest, most publicized commission of the decade is an f-ing mystery to me. The design review board needs to keep the leash tight here, or we'll end up with a Gateway Condos project X 10. :drunk:

 

Also, thanks Enquirer for providing us with one image of the actual design...sheesh! :x

 

John,

 

Let's get together at your wonderful place and we can talk about the it in depth over beers.  I was privy to some of the process, and I can tell you politics, minority inclusion (Moody Nolan), and previous work were huge determining factors. 

 

Regarding having a competition, there was a surprisingly extensive interview process to get to a short list of firms, but economies of scale and tackling coordination in what amounts to be a ridiculous schedule made this phase (retail and apartments only) a one firm job.  The office portion is being done by a firm out of Atlanta, and the hotel portion is being done by yet another firm.

 

Cole Russel has been and is capable of good design, but none of us are aware of all the factors weighing in on decisions.  They may have been told to go in different directions a dozen times, and all while hitting a bottom line sweet spot the developer dangles.  We should have high expectations, and we should be disappointed if they are not met, but we should not be surprised.  The only way this develpoment could have worked is if a city founded group was willing to take on this project and knowingly lose tens of millions of dollars for the betterment of the city.  Wouldn't be the first time.  But a good question is whether they could handle a project so huge.

 

^What?  Are you asking when they're going to start constructing The Banks?  If so, go down to 2nd Street and observe the cranes, concrete pouring equipment and large numbers of construction workers.

 

If you're asking specifically about the rendering above, that particular building will be in phase 1a of The Banks development which is wrapping up construction on the public portion of the project (infrastructure and garages).  The private development portion will begin shortly after this phase of construction.  Occupancy by 1Q 2011 and serious buildings out of the ground by late spring/early summer 2010.

 

Obviously I'm not talking about the "banks" perse but the rendering they posted.

BlauBaum, I understand your reaction to my comment.  Perfectly fine.  However, the Banks as a project isn't what I was describing but the buildings on the site. I separate these for a reason, for a long time we had nothing that could ever be built on that site so here are two issues going on here that are obviously important to discuss.  The first is the foundation and it's solid development, th second are the collection of buildings which will be apart of the site.  If the site is developed it can be built out if something doesn't work but without the right foundation design the other pieces don't really matter.

 

But of course, I favor a good design on the site, given that the base, the foundation is well taken care of.  Does anyone know about flood control and other site issues regarding the plan?

If the site is developed it can be built out if something doesn't work but without the right foundation design the other pieces don't really matter.

Weedrose, we are all kind of assuming that the infrastructure lifting the development out of the floodplain is going to be solid, long lasting stuff. If it isn't, nothing will succeed above, no matter how good the design. I took the thread to be currently discussing the aesthetics of the buildings developed on top of these garages. My point was--and maybe I was misunderstanding you--that we can't afford to make sure the garages are well built, and then just say, 'OK, now whatever can be built, as we've got good foundations and anything above them can just be torn down an we'll start over.' That would be very dangerous and wasteful--but I think the developers would like the design review board to take that stance! ;)

Regarding having a competition, there was a surprisingly extensive interview process to get to a short list of firms, but economies of scale and tackling coordination in what amounts to be a ridiculous schedule made this phase (retail and apartments only) a one firm job. The office portion is being done by a firm out of Atlanta, and the hotel portion is being done by yet another firm.

 

Cole Russel has been and is capable of good design, but none of us are aware of all the factors weighing in on decisions...The only way this develpoment could have worked is if a city founded group was willing to take on this project and knowingly lose tens of millions of dollars for the betterment of the city. Wouldn't be the first time. But a good question is whether they could handle a project so huge.

 

Osam,

Good to know that the entire banks will have some variety at least...and obviously I understand the limitations of time and how they effect coordination. I'm not sure though that I agree with your assessment that the only way to make this development work design-wise is to found a group willing to loose 10s of millions of dollars in some altruistic gesture for the city. This is certainly not the biggest project ever built, or the most difficult.

I got a camera finally, not the best pictures as they were taken through glass.

 

Quick question; is the new road being built replacing the existing one, closest to the river.

^^Now, that last pic is sexy!!  Thanks Brad!

This thing is cookin!

Quick question; is the new road being built replacing the existing one, closest to the river.

No, the road closest to the river (Mehring Way) will be rebuilt with a new alignment to compliment the new Central Riverfront Park design.  The road being constructed now is a new street that is part of the extending Downtown street grid.

 

From top to bottom: Third Street, Second Street, Freedom Way (the new street you see), T. Berry Way, Merhing Way (within flood zone)

Quick question; is the new road being built replacing the existing one, closest to the river.

No, the road closest to the river (Mehring Way) will be rebuilt with a new alignment to compliment the new Central Riverfront Park design. The road being constructed now is a new street that is part of the extending Downtown street grid.

 

From top to bottom: Third Street, Second Street, Freedom Way (the new street you see), T. Berry Way, Merhing Way (within flood zone)

 

The new road being constructed is Freedom Way which will travel from GABP to PBS and is the first street immediately south of Second.  Berry Way (which now travels from GABP to PBS and offers access to Roebling will be "demolished" except for the area directly in front of NURFC.

I don't see why we even need them to be named "Freedom Way", "Berry Way", etc.  There's no logic to the west to east order of naming downtown streets.  This just makes it even more confusing/unnecessary. 

 

-  Why can't Mehring Way use a name that's both indicative of its location and historically significant--like Water Street?  (Yes, I'm aware that there's a *very* small portion remaining near the US 27/Smith St bridge.) 

-  Berry Way should be Front Street, as the stadiums won't be there for centuries, and it would make sense to keep order to the succession of streets ascending from the river.

- Rosa Parks Street should remain Vine Street.  Why can't we use honorary titles like Chicago and New York do, but still maintain the official name?

- Freedom Way...same thing.

I don't see why we even need them to be named "Freedom Way", "Berry Way", etc. There's no logic to the west to east order of naming downtown streets. This just makes it even more confusing/unnecessary.

 

- Why can't Mehring Way use a name that's both indicative of its location and historically significant--like Water Street? (Yes, I'm aware that there's a *very* small portion remaining near the US 27/Smith St bridge.)

- Berry Way should be Front Street, as the stadiums won't be there for centuries, and it would make sense to keep order to the succession of streets ascending from the river.

- Rosa Parks Street should remain Vine Street. Why can't we use honorary titles like Chicago and New York do, but still maintain the official name?

- Freedom Way...same thing.

 

I agree. What is on the street signs now? Are you sure it's not just honorary names, and then when actual addresses are built there, they will use the correct street names?

Well, Rosa Parks Street is the official name for Vine Street south of Second.  All the other names are still kept intact south of Second.  I guess Freedom Way is the only one that makes the most sense, since it's mid block and has more in character with other midblock streets in downtown.

 

Theodore M. Berry Way makes more sense spatially to be Front Street instead.  It will likely stick around even after realignment with Central Riverfront Park.

 

I know it's semantics.

 

-  Why can't Mehring Way use a name that's both indicative of its location and historically significant--like Water Street?  (Yes, I'm aware that there's a *very* small portion remaining near the US 27/Smith St bridge.) 

 

Isn't it named after a former mayor and if so is that not historically significant?

 

EDIT: Named after a police officer.

^That still pertains to my point.  It doesn't provide spatial context in the grid.  Our city is historically oriented from the waterfront.  Unlike cities that have directional aides to help with navigation, we only have our east-west numerical streets. 

 

Manhattan's Avenue of the Americas, 6th Avenue, and many of its long-standing names still maintain their original names.

 

I suppose that since The Banks is being marketed as a new neighborhood unto itself, then I suppose naming its streets independent of its downtown situation makes a little sense (like Pendleton in relation to OTR).

 

It may seem like a weak argument (like my weakly received argument for a separate designation of OTR north of Liberty), but I think that it's a little disappointing that certain American cities such as ours are so quick to alter our historical roots, even if newer development replaces older structures.  They are details that orient a city's users and improve navigation in contemporary cities.

^ In New York the streets keep their names for address purposes, but have the "honorary" names after individuals or causes, etc.  It can be somewhat confusing for people who don't know their way around. 

 

I just think some of the new names at the Banks are dumb.  Renaming Vine St. even though it is continuous, for example.  Especially because these are streets being put back.. a similar grid existed before Riverfront was built.  I'd like to see the names restored rather than making up new ones.

^ In New York the streets keep their names for address purposes, but have the "honorary" names after individuals or causes, etc. It can be somewhat confusing for people who don't know their way around.

 

I just think some of the new names at the Banks are dumb. Renaming Vine St. even though it is continuous, for example. Especially because these are streets being put back.. a similar grid existed before Riverfront was built. I'd like to see the names restored rather than making up new ones.

 

Yes.  Bengal Drive, Pete Rose Way and Stadium Drive would be much better.  In reality names like Front, Pearl etc. would be better.

^ In New York the streets keep their names for address purposes, but have the "honorary" names after individuals or causes, etc.  It can be somewhat confusing for people who don't know their way around. 

 

I just think some of the new names at the Banks are dumb.  Renaming Vine St. even though it is continuous, for example.  Especially because these are streets being put back.. a similar grid existed before Riverfront was built.  I'd like to see the names restored rather than making up new ones.

 

Totally agree.  Also, what was the impetous for naming a street after Rosa Parks?  Not that she isn't important, but was she born in Cincinnati or something?  If it's just the proximity to the Freedom Center, naming a street after someone involved with the Underground Railroad would have made more logical sense.

Speaking of which (all from tonight):

 

 

 

 

Plus, pillars are going up south of Freedom Way for the next part of the parking garage. 

so what does the fact that they STILL have yet to announce any one tenant say about this project? It really bothers me. Slowly rolling out names of tenants would be a fantastic way to build momentum. I often forget this project is even being constructed because quite honestly there is nothing for me to be excited about right now...

It's a parking garage, what do you expect? Developers withhold tenant listings until several months prior to the tenant locating for many reasons that I won't go into here, but it's not part of a giant conspiracy that the Banks is failing. There are many legalities involved and for that reason alone, tenants can pull out if even a mention gets leaked out to the press.

Than ks for the photo update Jake.  I noticed the pillars south of Freedom too.

Why is that one part of the garage so much less complete than the rest? Over all the construction of this garage is going so impossibly slow.  Compare it to the progress made at QCS and it's really obvious how slow it's moving.  A while ago they said buildings would start construction on top of the garage in June...it will be agressive to even say Christmas before construction beginning on the buildings.  Ugh...

I'm told it's chaotic on site.  (Many phases and different contractors)  You'll have that with "these" kinds of projects.  Plus one area had to be ripped out and re-poured, right?

 

I walk past the construction every day and there are at least 50 workers constantly working on the garage from the time I get into work until the time I leave.  I don't know how long it should take but they are working like crazy down there.

Including the new section of Freedom Way, this site is twice as large as QCS's footprint.  Including the next part of the garage which just started construction, it's over 2X. 

 

Between the Freedom Center and PB Stadium, the area to be developed has about 4X the footprint of QCS.  Not including the park, the entire Banks area is about 10X more surface area. 

I'm sure this has been answered somewhere, but are these garages going to be connected to the Reds and Freedom Center garages or are they completely separate.  Also, will this connect in with the RTC?

I'd say they have to be separate.  I doubt that residents and patrons of businesses in The Banks will ever wish to contend with game day or museum concentrations.

Residential garages which will be built on the interior of residential blocks will be separate. I think the rest of the garages will connected.

So it goes is correct. The private garages will be built by the developer at the same time as the buildings on top of the parking podium. These garages being built now will connect with the URFC garage as well as all connecting to the RTC. When I worked for the Port Authority I actually helped us get a grant (for Congestion Mitigation Air Quality) because they were planning on using these garages as a park and ride for a downtown shuttle based in the RTC.

so what does the fact that they STILL have yet to announce any one tenant say about this project? It really bothers me. Slowly rolling out names of tenants would be a fantastic way to build momentum. I often forget this project is even being constructed because quite honestly there is nothing for me to be excited about right now...

 

We're more than a year away from any occupancy.  A lot can happen in a year with a retailer, so they don't often sign leases until the CO is issued for a building.  The developers have said that they have several Letters of Intent, which is all you're going to get until we get closer to an occupancy date.

Brewery planned for riverfront park

By Laura Baverman, Cincinnati Enquirer, September 2, 2009

 

With glockenspiels, biergartens and a working microbrewery, the Moerlein Lager House could provide the first sign of life for the long-awaited Riverfront Park and Banks development.

 

City Council approved today a preferred development agreement with Christian Moerlein Brewing Company for the construction of a 15,000-square-foot restaurant and brewery and expansive outdoor biergarten facing the Ohio River.

 

 

Edit: Added attribution.

awesome!

Certainly one of the best news to come out of the Banks so far! It will be located here along Main.

Certainly one of the best news to come out of the Banks Cincinnati so far!

 

 

And there was much rejoicing....

 

Thats awesome, on this board we've been mentioning this exact idea for probably over a year

***More was added to the article.*** Good news indeed.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090902/BIZ01/909060303/1055/NEWS/Brewery+planned+for+riverfront+park

This has been posted in three places, so please direct any future comments on the brewery specific at The Banks to the Cincinnati: Beer/Brewing News thread --

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,498.msg423939.html#msg423939

^ Sigh...

 

 

Anyways, took a few iPhone 3G pics today:

 

Moving right along I see!

ROCK ON!

Freedom Way East Street Light Installation

 

iPhone 3G pic:

Is that big hole halfway down on the North side of the street a "subway entrance" for the parking garage?

Yea I think it is Prok.  It'll probably be enclosed stairs or something.

Is that big hole halfway down on the North side of the street a "subway entrance" for the parking garage?

 

I don't see the hole, are you talking about the empty section with 3 orange cones around it halfway down on the north sidewalk?

 

I mentioned many, many pages back how one of the things I liked about Atlantic Station was the NYC subway style staircases that led to the underground parking garage.  I have not seen these in any of the Banks renderings, but they would be perfect for this project and would really be a nice touch.  Do we know if these are included in the plans?

They would be constructed within the realm of public infrastructure, and given that they exist along 2nd Street to access the underground garages, it would not surprise me if they were constructed along the streets within the Banks district.

Is that big hole halfway down on the North side of the street a "subway entrance" for the parking garage?

 

I don't see the hole, are you talking about the empty section with 3 orange cones around it halfway down on the north sidewalk?

 

I mentioned many, many pages back how one of the things I liked about Atlantic Station was the NYC subway style staircases that led to the underground parking garage. I have not seen these in any of the Banks renderings, but they would be perfect for this project and would really be a nice touch. Do we know if these are included in the plans?

 

That's the one.  I tried searching for detailed plans online, but found nothing clear enough to determine if that's how they're going to provide access.  I'm also curious if they're going to attempt to make them similar to the Riverfront Transit Center entrances.  Anybody have the scoop?

There are big holes that resemble the RTC entrances on the 2nd Street side of Phase 1. One for stairs and one for elevator.

 

I too would like to see subway style stairs on Freedom Way.