^I've noticed that Cincinnatians don't use the word much because there are a lot of people that think the grass is always browner on the other side, but the region has a lot of corruption.  Dave Pepper, Bob Bedinghaus, Mike Allen, Joe Deters, Uncle Drunkie Luken and his soaking wet father, Chris Smitherman, Alicia Reese, Leslie Ghiz, Carl Lindner when he was alive...

 

Where would Cincinnati be without the aforementioned undercutting progressive projects for a cheap backroom payoff?

 

Oh, it's been around for a while.  Just ask anyone who lived in the West End during the 1950 and 60's.

Mike Brown is not a "terrible" owner.  He is a graduate of Harvard Law who sure as hell knows how contracts work.  He was able to buy out his last significant minority owner WITH CASH due in large part to the stadium deal. 

 

The "stadium deal" got out-of-control in large part to the citizen effort to defeat the tax, which the commissioners levied without going to the electorate.  So they got the tax rescinded and put on the ballot, but the public ended up approving it anyway, with a number of concessions that haunt the county to this day (property tax rollback, CPS payout).  But the big problem was that the ballot challenge delayed the whole project by six months, leading to the massive overruns when the county was forced to pay overtime. 

Jake, people confuse his ownership prowess with his management ability.  Excellent negotiator.  Good at hitting a bottom line.  His core mistake had been not maintaining an agency relationship between ownership and management.  Now that he has loosened the grip and let football people make the football decisions, the on field results have started to arc upward. 

 

Sorry.  Back on topic.

So they got the tax rescinded and put on the ballot, but the public ended up approving it anyway, with a number of concessions that haunt the county to this day (property tax rollback, CPS payout).

 

By state law you can't reduce property taxes as an incentive without the entity reducing those taxes compensating the corresponding school district for the lost revenue.  So that wasn't really a concession to the Bengals.

 

Hotel possibility raised for Banks Phase IIA

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

If developers can’t land office tenants for the second phase of the Banks project, they might consider putting another hotel there, project officials told Hamilton County commissioners on Wednesday.

 

Commissioners approved changes on Wednesday to the Banks master development needed in order to move on with Phase IIA of the project, which will include 305 apartments on a single city block, double the density of the residential component of Phase I.

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/21/hotel-possibility-raised-for-banks.html

 

Hotel possibility raised for Banks Phase IIA

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

If developers can’t land office tenants for the second phase of the Banks project, they might consider putting another hotel there, project officials told Hamilton County commissioners on Wednesday.

 

Commissioners approved changes on Wednesday to the Banks master development needed in order to move on with Phase IIA of the project, which will include 305 apartments on a single city block, double the density of the residential component of Phase I.

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/21/hotel-possibility-raised-for-banks.html

 

A second hotel at The Banks? Maybe they should focus on getting the first hotel built in that obnoxiously empty void next to the lager house.

Yeah a second hotel seems like a bad idea. I would rather see offices there since we are already building a lot of hotels downtown.

or why not more apartments??

I'd really like to know what the difficulty is with getting the Phase 1 hotel built. The apartments are at capacity with a huge waiting list, retail is almost entirely leased, the park continues to open knew expanded phases.  Hotel chains have announced their arrival into the market since The Banks has been built, yet they are choosing to locate in the CBD, even with greater challenges than the Banks site provides.  You have, outside of the convention center, probably the biggest demand driver for hotels in the region in the 2 stadiums, and imagine the river views that a Banks hotel would have.  It just seems perplexing to me.

I'd really like to know what the difficulty is with getting the Phase 1 hotel built. The apartments are at capacity with a huge waiting list, retail is almost entirely leased, the park continues to open knew expanded phases.  Hotel chains have announced their arrival into the market since The Banks has been built, yet they are choosing to locate in the CBD, even with greater challenges than the Banks site provides.  You have, outside of the convention center, probably the biggest demand driver for hotels in the region in the 2 stadiums, and imagine the river views that a Banks hotel would have.  It just seems perplexing to me.

 

I agree with you. However, I believe the cost of the hotel is $40M for 200 rooms. The other hotels like the Enquirer building will have 238 rooms plus 12,000 sq of retail for $27.3M. The difference is the cost. That is why it is more difficult or taking longer to get the banks hotel project going.

^ correct. I've heard they want something like 5-10 million from the City just for the hotel.  That's insane. they only needed $4 million from the city to build the entire 300 apartment second phase of the Banks.

Just work in more apartments and condos, and maybe some actual retail instead of just restaurants.  If the conditions aren't right for hotels, there are other things that can be built.  I'd love to see townhouses there.

Just work in more apartments and condos, and maybe some actual retail instead of just restaurants.  If the conditions aren't right for hotels, there are other things that can be built.  I'd love to see townhouses there.

There is a spot already for town homes.

 

^ correct. I've heard they want something like 5-10 million from the City just for the hotel.  That's insane. they only needed $4 million from the city to build the entire 300 apartment second phase of the Banks.

 

They are deal shopping for government incentives.

Roads near the Banks to close temporarily

Erin Caproni Digital Producer- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Roads and sidewalks near the Banks will be closed in coming days for a series of concrete pours to create the new pedestrian bridge that will offer access to U.S. Bank Arena and Great American Ball Park from the stair tower at the corner of Pete Rose Way and Broadway.

 

All traffic lanes and sidewalks on Pete Rose Way between Broadway and Johnny Bench Way will close from 12:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. on Friday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Access will be restored each night from 3:30 p.m. until closure restarts at 12:30 a..m.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2013/08/roads-near-the-banks-to-close.html

Here are new views of the Banks' second phase: EXCLUSIVE

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Planners unveiled new images this week of what the next phase of the Banks riverfront development will look like. The images show a courtyard at the project and how explain how developers plan to incorporate an office pad into Phase IIA without leaving a gap in the development, as they did in Phase I.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2013/08/here-are-new-views-of-the-banks.html

Nice pictures, but the renderings don't seem to match. This image (#4 in the slideshow) doesn't seem to fit with the other renderings. The other renderings make the building seem like a solid square on all sides, but this rendering makes it seem like it's open from the courtyard (presumably to offer views of the river). Anybody know which renderings are actually accurate?

 

If you look at the view showing the low 2 story pad you can just make out that gap. It faces east, or towards the office building.

Thanks jmicha, I see it that gap now. Seems strange to have the courtyard "facing" East, especially since a tall building (office or hotel) will eventually block the courtyard's views to the East. If the courtyard faced South, the pool (and most of the apartments) would have views of the river.

Yeah it's a little interesting. I wonder if there will be more outdoor space on top of the podium outside of that courtyard which would make it easier to access by having the gap on the eastern portion of the building.

Anyone have details on the new ped bridge next to US Bank Arena and if it will be done for the playoffs? 

Goal is playoffs/beginning of October

Anyone have details on the new ped bridge next to US Bank Arena and if it will be done for the playoffs?

 

Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?

 

 

Classic Jim Mora!

 

Part of the Banks sold

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

The developers of the first phase of the Banks have sold the apartments and the 96,000 square feet of ground-floor retail from the first phase of the project.

 

Carter and Dawson and USAA Real Estate sold those parts to NIC Riverbanks One LLC, which is an affiliate of privately held Nashville-based Nicol Investment Company.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/10/17/part-of-the-banks-sold.html

I'm sure the sale is pretty standard. Carter-Dawson developed Phase 1 of the Banks but never intended to own it forever. They probably always intended to sell it in order to finance future phases.

 

However, the big story here is what's being discussed in the comments section on that Business Courier article. Hamilton County Auditor Dusty Rhodes assessed the value of these properties at $52 million, but they were just sold for $79.5 million. As many of you know, Dusty has been a constant critic and opponent of The Banks. Did he intentionally undervalue these properties because of his own biases? How many millions of dollars of tax revenue are the city and county losing simply because Dusty is manipulating the values of downtown properties?

 

The Enquirer just ran a story about an outside audit of the Hamilton County Sheriff's office that found corruption and widespread usage of antiquated technology. ("You walk in and almost every aspect of the sheriff’s office looks, feels and behaves as if it were sometime in the late 1980s – with their policies and technology and equipment.")

 

Perhaps it is time for a similar outside audit of the Hamilton County Auditor's office. I bet you would find similar amounts of corruption, a good ol' boy's system, and widespread usage of antiquated technology.

^Oh without a doubt. Rhodes is the absolute worst.

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

 

Well, if your goal is to "shrink [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub", one way to accomplish that is to undervalue properties and reduce the amount of income that the city and county get.

Well, if your goal is to "shrink [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub", one way to accomplish that is to undervalue properties and reduce the amount of income that the city and county get.

 

That is a pretty serious allegation. Do you expect a primary opponent for him next year?

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

 

When property taxes were reassessed up here in Franklin County 2 years ago, nobody was happy. If someone's property lost value, they complained that their property was being written off as valueless and it even made some people go upside down on their mortgage. But people who saw their property increase in value lost their minds because their taxes went up. There's no way to win!

I'm sure the sale is pretty standard. Carter-Dawson developed Phase 1 of the Banks but never intended to own it forever. They probably always intended to sell it in order to finance future phases.

 

However, the big story here is what's being discussed in the comments section on that Business Courier article. Hamilton County Auditor Dusty Rhodes assessed the value of these properties at $52 million, but they were just sold for $79.5 million. As many of you know, Dusty has been a constant critic and opponent of The Banks. Did he intentionally undervalue these properties because of his own biases? How many millions of dollars of tax revenue are the city and county losing simply because Dusty is manipulating the values of downtown properties?

 

The Enquirer just ran a story about an outside audit of the Hamilton County Sheriff's office that found corruption and widespread usage of antiquated technology. ("You walk in and almost every aspect of the sheriff’s office looks, feels and behaves as if it were sometime in the late 1980s – with their policies and technology and equipment.")

 

Perhaps it is time for a similar outside audit of the Hamilton County Auditor's office. I bet you would find similar amounts of corruption, a good ol' boy's system, and widespread usage of antiquated technology.

 

It is super difficult to assess, appraise or value developments like this. A public pension bought 525 Vine St. in the late 90's for 42 Million.

They sold it in 2003-04 for 17 Million. One really needs to rent roll for the retail and apartment portion that sold to see if it is worth 79 Million.

Institutional buyers/investors often pay way too much for these deals. I really doubt that Rhodes did anything wrong. Remember the City/

County has/had a piece of what is going on at the banks. I am sure everything was arms length.

This is a good reason why moving to a more land-based tax scheme is advantageous, because it takes the whole appraisal aspect out of the equation. 

This is a good reason why moving to a more land-based tax scheme is advantageous, because it takes the whole appraisal aspect out of the equation. 

 

Isn't the land still appraised? The land my house is on has a view of the city and is appraised at 5 times the same size lot across the street. I guess in general it's much easier to just appraise the land, though. That would also encourage density.

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

 

Well, if your goal is to "shrink [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub", one way to accomplish that is to undervalue properties and reduce the amount of income that the city and county get.

 

That lowers rents and would cause the population to increase, though. If you overvalue the 'burbs and undervalue the city more people and businesses will move into the city. That will eventually bringing rents (and property values) back to equilibrium.

>Isn't the land still appraised?

 

Who owns the land under the garage under The Banks?  The county owns the parking garage.  The city or the county owns the actual concrete subfloor of the first floor of The Banks, not the developer. 

^ So what you're saying is air rights complicate land tax assessments.

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

 

Well, if your goal is to "shrink [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub", one way to accomplish that is to undervalue properties and reduce the amount of income that the city and county get.

 

That lowers rents and would cause the population to increase, though. If you overvalue the 'burbs and undervalue the city more people and businesses will move into the city. That will eventually bringing rents (and property values) back to equilibrium.

 

 

If my value is 20% lower than market (thereby lowering my taxes), I'm not going to rent for 20% under market. I'll probably rent 5% under to undercut competition but then enjoy my extra 15% margin.

^ So what you're saying is air rights complicate land tax assessments.

 

On the land tax model, improvements to the land that increase to value do not get taxed. (as I understand it). I think if a taxing authority wants to

spur development they can provide tax abatements or do TIF. The Banks did get TIF, yes?

I'm sure all of The Banks is TIF financed and abated.

 

I think it's about time to start to hold back on the giant abatements we always give. 

Assessed value in Hamilton County is 35% of the real market (appraised) value (RMV) of a property.  I am not sure if the $52M above is the assessed figure or the RMV figure (sounds like the RMV figure as I doubt the property would be worth $150M).  I am no fan of Dusty either.

 

The number listed on the auditors site is the RMV. The taxes are based on 35% of that number. It is a huge benefit, actually, to the owner if your property is undervalued. Usually if it is undervalued and is sold for a higher amount, the auditor is quick to adjust their value to get additional tax.

 

I don't see the auditor undervaluing a property because of a political agenda. There's nothing to gain, really, and ultimately you're helping your enemy by giving them a tax break.

 

Well, if your goal is to "shrink [government] down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub", one way to accomplish that is to undervalue properties and reduce the amount of income that the city and county get.

 

That lowers rents and would cause the population to increase, though. If you overvalue the 'burbs and undervalue the city more people and businesses will move into the city. That will eventually bringing rents (and property values) back to equilibrium.

 

 

If my value is 20% lower than market (thereby lowering my taxes), I'm not going to rent for 20% under market. I'll probably rent 5% under to undercut competition but then enjoy my extra 15% margin.

 

Correct rent is market driven, you have competitors. Real Estate taxes are higher in the City than say Anderson Twp. The City funds more stuff than Twps.

 

I'm sure all of The Banks is TIF financed and abated.

 

I think it's about time to start to hold back on the giant abatements we always give. 

 

I agree related to high demand areas. With the Banks I get it due to the very high construction costs due primarily to the garage.

 

^ So what you're saying is air rights complicate land tax assessments.

 

On the land tax model, improvements to the land that increase to value do not get taxed. (as I understand it). I think if a taxing authority wants to

spur development they can provide tax abatements or do TIF. The Banks did get TIF, yes?

 

Yet surface lot owners and negligent speculators are paying the same amount as someone who has put the property to more valuable use. It also streamlines the assessment process, making it more small-government friendly. Just like market-rate parking, this should be something conservatives and urbanists can agree on.

^ The idea is that in an urban area the tax rate will be too high for surface parking lots or speculators to "hold" that land in such a low-value use. 

 

http://www.earthrights.net/docs/kunstler.html

^ Yes, that's what I was implying. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'm sure all of The Banks is TIF financed and abated.

 

I think it's about time to start to hold back on the giant abatements we always give. 

 

What about when those abatements expire and the city & county start receiving property tax revenue?

>The idea is that in an urban area the tax rate will be too high for surface parking lots or speculators to "hold" that land in such a low-value use. 

 

...except our property taxes are fairly low in the Cincinnati area.  That's a symptom of being a state which bases municipal finances around an earnings tax.

Broadway Lot opened Monday; $3 parking during the day. It was full by 8:30 this morning.

They are laying porous pavers in what will evidently be called the Dumbo (parking) Lot, per Project Executive John Deatrick.

 

 

EDIT: Here is an earlier article on the project: Expect delays around construction work at the Banks through August

 

Broadway Lot opened Monday; $3 parking during the day. It was full by 8:30 this morning.