Lets not forget the scare tactics employed by the city's powerful business interests during the era of the Banks Working Group. In 2008 those groups pushed hard for a height limit at the Banks out of concern that their properties on 3rd street would no longer see the river.

 

Of course they threw out this ridiculous render of the site with nothing but 20-30 story buildings on it.

 

 

 

I'm curious: anyone know how the County gave some sort of contractual right over building heights to the Bengals through their lease?  I presumed the City controlled building heights exclusively.

Lets not forget the scare tactics employed by the city's powerful business interests during the era of the Banks Working Group. In 2008 those groups pushed hard for a height limit at the Banks out of concern that their properties on 3rd street would no longer see the river.

 

Of course they threw out this ridiculous render of the site with nothing but 20-30 story buildings on it.

 

 

 

 

I actually like the height restrictions for The Banks.  The CBD has more than enough space to grow vertically without having to take over the waterfront with skyscrapers.  San Francisco -arguably one of the most space starved cities in North America- recently rejected a proposal that would have allowed high rise development along the bay because of concerns over views of the bay from the city, and vice versa. More than preserving views, though, I think the height restriction encourages density in the core.

Lets not forget the scare tactics employed by the city's powerful business interests during the era of the Banks Working Group. In 2008 those groups pushed hard for a height limit at the Banks out of concern that their properties on 3rd street would no longer see the river.

 

Of course they threw out this ridiculous render of the site with nothing but 20-30 story buildings on it.

 

 

I actually like the height restrictions for The Banks.  The CBD has more than enough space to grow vertically without having to take over the waterfront with skyscrapers.  San Francisco -arguably one of the most space starved cities in North America- recently rejected a proposal that would have allowed high rise development along the bay because of concerns over views of the bay from the city, and vice versa. More than preserving views, though, I think the height restriction encourages density in the core.

 

Sure, to keep away buildings over 500'. But a 20-story building is hardly tall, and certainly shouldn't be stopped, considering it is a mere blocks away from the centre of the metropolitan region.

I'm curious: anyone know how the County gave some sort of contractual right over building heights to the Bengals through their lease?  I presumed the City controlled building heights exclusively.

 

Guess we need to ask Bob Bedinghaus why the county agreed to this in contract or memorandum.

Since the name of the game these days seems to be breaching contracts when you don't like the terms, I'd say the contract with the Bengals is one definitely worthy of throwing on the dung heap.

 

I absolutely agree!  Mike Brown can shove it!  A sports team has absolutely no place in urban design and development!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also I agree that the banks having 20 story buildings is not a bad thing.  That is really not that tall, and because of the separation of fort washington way, this will not block the views of the skyscrapers on 3rd, or their view of the river/stadiums.

County administrator: Office building at the Banks not imminent

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Hamilton County officials downplayed the likelihood of a 20-story office building being built at the Banks on Wednesday.

 

Questions were raised about the county’s intentions after the latest dispute between the county and the Cincinnati Bengals emerged.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/22/county-administrator-office-building.html

Who sets the zoning the city or the county?

^Apparently Mike Brown does

 

If I was the city and own that land. I would say tough titty to the county and Mike Brown. lol

How tall will the hotel be. Didnt they say it will be running by the 2015 all-star game. They better get a rendering ready

The construction start for Phase 2 seems to have been pushed back a few times, and now we know the reason...

 

I know there were reports that construction would start this month, and its January 23rd... not much time left to get going. 

 

Is this month still realistic? Or is it getting pushed back again and again

I am so far removed from the exotic, far away galaxy in which governments buy things for private sports teams that reading stories like this doesn't even emotionally impact me. It's like reading something in The Onion.

I am so far removed from the exotic, far away galaxy in which governments buy things for private sports teams that reading stories like this doesn't even emotionally impact me. It's like reading something in The Onion.

 

The whole saga has been perfectly played by Mike Brown.  His single greatest move was getting the county to agree to the deadline back around 1994.  That meant his own stall tactics weakened the hand of the county, forcing them to do all these concessions in the lease.  He was going to go to whatever city was going to agree to lease terms that set him up to buy out his minority ownership.  That occurred in 2011 when he bought out the last shareholder with $120 million...in cash. 

 

The thing people don't get is that it is absolutely true that the Brown didn't actually start making money until 2012.  For the past 30+ years they had been minority owners who merely earned a salary, then majority owners who paid themselves very small salaries, but now are pocketing millions each year and own an asset worth about $1 billion. 

 

 

 

I am so far removed from the exotic, far away galaxy in which governments buy things for private sports teams that reading stories like this doesn't even emotionally impact me. It's like reading something in The Onion.

 

I thought you lived in Columbus. Sounds like you didn't hear about what happened with the Blue Jackets and the sale of Nationwide Arena.

I am so far removed from the exotic, far away galaxy in which governments buy things for private sports teams that reading stories like this doesn't even emotionally impact me. It's like reading something in The Onion.

 

The whole saga has been perfectly played by Mike Brown.  His single greatest move was getting the county to agree to the deadline back around 1994.  That meant his own stall tactics weakened the hand of the county, forcing them to do all these concessions in the lease.  He was going to go to whatever city was going to agree to lease terms that set him up to buy out his minority ownership.  That occurred in 2011 when he bought out the last shareholder with $120 million...in cash. 

 

The thing people don't get is that it is absolutely true that the Brown didn't actually start making money until 2012.  For the past 30+ years they had been minority owners who merely earned a salary, then majority owners who paid themselves very small salaries, but now are pocketing millions each year and own an asset worth about $1 billion. 

 

 

 

 

John, there is a good read/article on how Paul Brown set up the different Bengal ownership interests, for cash infusion in the 70's and 80's,

with options to buy back those shares (for what ended up being pennies on the dollar). Back in the early 90's, after Paul Brown died, Mike

was contractually allowed to exercise his options to buy back ownership shares, and he did as much of that as possible. Kind of like buying stocks,

with other people's money, super low and selling super high. MB IMHO has been more lucky than business genius (he is smart though).

He didn't beat the IRS, his lawyers did, he didn't find the money to start a franchise, his Dad did and as I recall Dad formulated the ownership

structure also. It would wonderful to inherit a NFL franchise. If I can find that article I will post it.

http://bengalsjungle.com/lostdecade.html

In 1983 when Paul Brown knew he wasn't going to live a whole lot longer. He signed a deal with John Sawyer where he sold his shares of the team giving a promise that Sawyer would sale back the shares to his kids at the same price in 1993. Giving them majority shares so they would be able to run the franchise as their own family business. During this time Sawyer would receive all the profits from the shares while the Brown family would receive salaries. From the deal, Brown secured two key concessions from Sawyer: an irrevocable proxy allowing Brown to retain majority voting rights, and an option under which his sons could buy back his shares and all but one of Sawyer's existing 213 shares in 10 years at $25,000 per share, $5,000 less than the price paid by Sawyer.

 

 

http://bengalsjungle.com/lostdecade.html

In 1983 when Paul Brown knew he wasn't going to live a whole lot longer. He signed a deal with John Sawyer where he sold his shares of the team giving a promise that Sawyer would sale back the shares to his kids at the same price in 1993. Giving them majority shares so they would be able to run the franchise as their own family business. During this time Sawyer would receive all the profits from the shares while the Brown family would receive salaries. From the deal, Brown secured two key concessions from Sawyer: an irrevocable proxy allowing Brown to retain majority voting rights, and an option under which his sons could buy back his shares and all but one of Sawyer's existing 213 shares in 10 years at $25,000 per share, $5,000 less than the price paid by Sawyer.

 

 

 

I believe this is the same Sawyer of Sawyer Point fame, which is heirs to part of the Proctor P&G ownership, and the Sawyer family still owns the land but allows the city to use as a park. However the land will be forfeited back to the family if the city violates certain conditions, and from what I've heard the city has been violating them the entire time, but the heirs still have tons of money so it doesn't matter until one of their grandkids' grandkids goes on a massive cocaine binge in 2081. 

 

 

http://bengalsjungle.com/lostdecade.html

In 1983 when Paul Brown knew he wasn't going to live a whole lot longer. He signed a deal with John Sawyer where he sold his shares of the team giving a promise that Sawyer would sale back the shares to his kids at the same price in 1993. Giving them majority shares so they would be able to run the franchise as their own family business. During this time Sawyer would receive all the profits from the shares while the Brown family would receive salaries. From the deal, Brown secured two key concessions from Sawyer: an irrevocable proxy allowing Brown to retain majority voting rights, and an option under which his sons could buy back his shares and all but one of Sawyer's existing 213 shares in 10 years at $25,000 per share, $5,000 less than the price paid by Sawyer.

 

 

 

I believe this is the same Sawyer of Sawyer Point fame, which is heirs to part of the Proctor P&G ownership, and the Sawyer family still owns the land but allows the city to use as a park. However the land will be forfeited back to the family if the city violates certain conditions, and from what I've heard the city has been violating them the entire time, but the heirs still have tons of money so it doesn't matter until one of their grandkids' grandkids goes on a massive cocaine binge in 2081. 

 

 

 

Yep that is the family. No idea about the family still owning that land, interesting. For a city market area the size of Cincinnati there are

many Blue Blood families around here.

 

Banks developers cash in on phase I, again

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The developers of the first phase of the Banks have sold another portion of the project.

 

Carter and Dawson and USAA Real Estate sold the 12,500-square-foot Yard House Cincinnati to Spirit S.P.E. Portfolio 2012-5 LLC, an affiliate of Spirit Realty Capital for more than $8.7 million, according to property records. The property, located at 95 E. Freedom Way, was transferred in the middle of January.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/24/banks-developers-cash-in-on-phase-i.html

 

Hmmm, there's a sentence in there that's interesting. The spot reserved in phase 2 for an office tower could also end up being a hotel or more apartments. I didn't think this was a possibility but it's good to know that there are more options for filling in that spot. I have a feeling that it'll end up going apartments based on how other things are going. We'll see.

This whole Bengals/County dispute over 8 feet of height on a building is utterly ridiculous, yet incredibly fitting considering the players involved.

 

It seems like this is the reason construction has not started on Phase 2A and this for some reason has the odd feeling like it could drag on and on resulting in construction being pushed back indefinitely. 

 

About a month ago construction was supposed to start in January, now there is still no hard date when that will happen.  Maybe I am over reading the situation, but only the Bengals would do everything they can to stop the environment around their taxpayer funded stadium from progressing. 

 

Somehow they will interfere with the Smale as well...

The 8 feet of building will obstruct the view from one...yeah that's right, ONE box in the stadium. The view of what? Downtown.

 

But the Banks is part of downtown!!!

 

^you must be joking.

Its incredibly "Bengals" of them to hold up a massive project because of 8 feet of the height of a building. its as if this is an april fools joke or something.

Hmmm, there's a sentence in there that's interesting. The spot reserved in phase 2 for an office tower could also end up being a hotel or more apartments. I didn't think this was a possibility but it's good to know that there are more options for filling in that spot. I have a feeling that it'll end up going apartments based on how other things are going. We'll see.

 

Yeah I think that makes sense.

 

Banks developers cash in on phase I, again

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The developers of the first phase of the Banks have sold another portion of the project.

 

Carter and Dawson and USAA Real Estate sold the 12,500-square-foot Yard House Cincinnati to Spirit S.P.E. Portfolio 2012-5 LLC, an affiliate of Spirit Realty Capital for more than $8.7 million, according to property records. The property, located at 95 E. Freedom Way, was transferred in the middle of January.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/24/banks-developers-cash-in-on-phase-i.html

 

 

I never understood why Carter Dawson is the developer of this project.  The designs they choose are consistently awful and they don't seem to be able to navigate the local red tape and personalities to get things done on time.  Wouldn't it be better to go with a local developer?  Wouldn't 3CDC do a much better job?

 

Banks developers cash in on phase I, again

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The developers of the first phase of the Banks have sold another portion of the project.

 

Carter and Dawson and USAA Real Estate sold the 12,500-square-foot Yard House Cincinnati to Spirit S.P.E. Portfolio 2012-5 LLC, an affiliate of Spirit Realty Capital for more than $8.7 million, according to property records. The property, located at 95 E. Freedom Way, was transferred in the middle of January.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/24/banks-developers-cash-in-on-phase-i.html

 

 

I never understood why Carter Dawson is the developer of this project.  The designs they choose are consistently awful and they don't seem to be able to navigate the local red tape and personalities to get things done on time.  Wouldn't it be better to go with a local developer?  Wouldn't 3CDC do a much better job?

 

I believe they had experience completing similar projects, in scope and some with partners that are County/City.

Carter's portfolio is pretty huge and Dawson comes in when a County/City want a minority developer.

 

per the height limitation & the Bengals - wasn't the height limitation supposed to protect southern views of current downtown buildings?

Height debate not holding up Banks work

Jan. 25, 2014 

Written by Bowdeya Tweh

 

 

Could the debate over a decorative roof railing hold up a $65 million building project at the Banks?

 

Hamilton County officials and developers’ representatives say no, and, while negotiations about the parapet are continuing, construction on the nine-story building is still expected to roll this year.

 

The debate reflects the complex and sometimes contentious discussions on high-profile economic development projects, especially when multiple parties and lots of money are involved.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20140125/BIZ/301250030/Height-debate-not-holding-up-Banks-work?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1

Cincinnati is, and always has been, too damned hung up over height restrictions.  It's so freakin' afraid of blocking part of the skyline view.  It's no wonder it took over 70 years to get anything taller than Carew Tower, and even THEN you really can't tell by looking at it from a distance.  This city needs to grow up....literally.

Cincinnati likes to get in its own way. 

Height limits in the United States don't have much to do with aesthetics but rather blue bloods controlling where skyscrapers can be built -- specifically on land they themselves own.  Height limits keep the center of  downtowns, and therefore the most valuable land in any metro area, from drifting a few blocks in one direction or another. 

Nice perspective rendering. I love the size and scale of this building. Will be such a nice addition to The Banks:

That will create a nice low canyon effect on 3rd street, and make Cincinnati feel much bigger along that axis of travel. It's amazing what just a few "patches" to the urban fabric will do to pump up the appearance of a city.

Yeah that rendering is really nice, definitely gives you the idea of the effect it will have.  It will definitely increase the density and urban feel of the banks.

The building is heinous. It's like the urban designer did an FSR massing study and then the architect just added windows and called it a day. No design.

Hahaha!  Greg, I miss you so much. I was thinking it with every post, but I didn't want to rain on everyone's parade. I'm so glad you've bridged the architect-planner divide.  Agreed, this building is awful.  I also can't begin the Architect's reason for putting that curved wall on the downtown side of the building. It's like a tacky insult to the Freedom Center

At least it will have more foot traffic in one day than the Freedom Center has in one month.

Oh and there will be no Second street retail frontage fyi. That was sacrificed for.... more parking!

^Wasn't it said that that spot is only temporarily going to be parking? And that once the Banks is built out it'll be converted to a grocery store?

 

This building is a worse offender than phase 1 in terms of being a superblock. I'm really REALLY hoping that the rendering quality is just awful and that the facade treatment doesn't look like it does in these images. Why can't we hire a more competent architect in this city for large scale developments? There are plenty of firms much more suited for the look they were trying to achieve than CR Architects. They're a cancer to urban development in Cincinnati.

Where was it said? I got that info looking through the Planning Commission packet and then I checked the minutes of the meeting. There was no mention.

 

If it is that would be great. An earlier render had retail lining the entire block. There is no reason that it should have been sacrificed for more parking as the whole development is pretty over-parked to begin with.

It was mentioned in one of the articles within the last few months about the project. No clue which one though, maybe somebody remembers.

I'll just go out and say what everyone is thinking.  The architect just sucks and whoever OK'd it sucks along with the architect.  This is what happens when too many voices are thrown into the pot when it comes to design.  Nobody has balls to say "Hey, that looks really bad, why put that there?"

^Can you go be on the board that makes these decisions? We need someone who is brutally honest and someone who is completely okay insulting CR and telling them that they suck. They are awful. Literally nothing they looks good. I could name dozens of other firms that design developments like this that aren't awful and can actually create a nice product that people can be jealous of.

It was mentioned in one of the articles within the last few months about the project. No clue which one though, maybe somebody remembers.

 

Is this the article you're talking about?

 

The initial 21,000 square feet of retail space will be developed along West Freedom Way, wrapping to the corners of Race and Rosa Parks streets. In addition, the developers are building out a 40,000-square-foot space along Second Street as parking for residential units at the Banks, but this space could be converted once the developers land a tenant or tenants.

 

The space could be used by one 40,000-square-foot tenant or divided into two 20,000-square-foot spaces. One of the users Swadel said the Banks would like to land is a grocery store.

 

“We would love one,” Swadel told me Tuesday afternoon. “A number of groups have attempted to land one in downtown. We’ll keep pursuing that, but no promises.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/08/is-banks-phase-iia-saving-room-for-a.html?page=all

^Yes, that's the one. Thanks.

It was mentioned in one of the articles within the last few months about the project. No clue which one though, maybe somebody remembers.

 

Is this the article you're talking about?

 

The initial 21,000 square feet of retail space will be developed along West Freedom Way, wrapping to the corners of Race and Rosa Parks streets. In addition, the developers are building out a 40,000-square-foot space along Second Street as parking for residential units at the Banks, but this space could be converted once the developers land a tenant or tenants.

 

The space could be used by one 40,000-square-foot tenant or divided into two 20,000-square-foot spaces. One of the users Swadel said the Banks would like to land is a grocery store.

 

“We would love one,” Swadel told me Tuesday afternoon. “A number of groups have attempted to land one in downtown. We’ll keep pursuing that, but no promises.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/08/is-banks-phase-iia-saving-room-for-a.html?page=all

 

Cool. Hope this becomes a reality!

I don't believe CR is responsible for the design of this phase.  That being said, it is not bad... just uninspiring.

At least it will have more foot traffic in one day than the Freedom Center has in one month.

 

Yeah, about that.  The Freedom Center needs to offer more free days for Hamilton County residents.  It's a really GREAT museum, but it suffers because so many people here are bitter about it's construction and have never actually visited.  I take all of my out of town guests there and they are all blown away by how nice it is.  If they can sell more residents, they'll certainly get more foot traffic from visitors.