Is there a finalized rendering of The Banks? Maybe these developers need to be reminded that Cinci isn't sprawled like ATL and that space should be used as efficiently as possible. I want to see atleast 15 story buildings.

 

15 story buildings would block everyone's views of the river.

I don't see how... It's a pretty big space. I guess I could be wrong but I just want to see it as dense as feasibly posisble as far as the buildings surrounding the open spaces.

 

Edit--Oh wait, now I know what you're talking about. From up on like 2nd street? Gotcha.

I think 6 and 7 story buildings would be more like it. Of all the blocks that are there, I think one central green space block (kind like a village green type thing)  is all that is needed.  Kind of like an Italian piazza with shops all around it.

In those days, Cincinnati still had four downtown department stores.

 

"How pleased we were with ourselves," Mann said.

 

Today, Cincinnati has a Macy's and a Saks downtown, but others have left, and a parking lot occupies the half-block that was leveled for a Nordstrom's project that fell through.

 

Aside from the point that people don't shop at department stores nowadays in the numbers that they used to (and that is pretty much the fault of the department stores), let's look at the numbers once again.  How many downtown department stores does Cincinnati have?  Two.  Atlanta has zero.  They have a little memorial to Rich's, which was their version of Shillito's in the old Rich's building that is now the Federal Building in Atlanta.  Anyone in Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Indy, Louisville, or any other city want to give a count of how many downtown department stores their city has?  And to be fair, they have to be downtown, not just urban, so if you're in New York, you can't count any higher than 14th street, or go past Wacker Dr. and the river if you're in Chicago, for example.

In those days, Cincinnati still had four downtown department stores.

 

"How pleased we were with ourselves," Mann said.

 

Today, Cincinnati has a Macy's and a Saks downtown, but others have left, and a parking lot occupies the half-block that was leveled for a Nordstrom's project that fell through.

 

Aside from the point that people don't shop at department stores nowadays in the numbers that they used to (and that is pretty much the fault of the department stores), let's look at the numbers once again.  How many downtown department stores does Cincinnati have?  Two.  Atlanta has zero.  They have a little memorial to Rich's, which was their version of Shillito's in the old Rich's building that is now the Federal Building in Atlanta.  Anyone in Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Indy, Louisville, or any other city want to give a count of how many downtown department stores their city has?  And to be fair, they have to be downtown, not just urban, so if you're in New York, you can't count any higher than 14th street, or go past Wacker Dr. and the river if you're in Chicago, for example.

 

agree 100%...since when is a department store a gage of a healthy downtown?

 

Aside from the point that people don't shop at department stores nowadays in the numbers that they used to (and that is pretty much the fault of the department stores), let's look at the numbers once again.  How many downtown department stores does Cincinnati have?  Two.  Atlanta has zero.  They have a little memorial to Rich's, which was their version of Shillito's in the old Rich's building that is now the Federal Building in Atlanta.  Anyone in Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Indy, Louisville, or any other city want to give a count of how many downtown department stores their city has?  And to be fair, they have to be downtown, not just urban, so if you're in New York, you can't count any higher than 14th street, or go past Wacker Dr. and the river if you're in Chicago, for example.

 

I think Indy actually has a fair ammount of department stores downtown.  At least Parisian and Nordstrom...

I would like to see a daycare and small grocery store included or on old 3rd street.

Hmm...grocery store downtown would be hard to pull off without a parking garage. Groceries tend to necessitate a car.

^Not if you have enough people living downtown.

Well but if you're like me and you don't go that often, when you do go, you buy up everything in sight. So you've got all these groceries you have to walk with to your building. In theory its a cool idea but in order for it to be a big grocery store you'd definitely need a parking garage.

The tendency for residents that lived within walking distance of a downtown grocery would be to walk several times a week to get things as you needed them, as opposed to loading up the car with enough provisions for a week (or longer).

 

I can't imagine someone living at the Banks getting the car out of the garage, driving around the block to park in another garage to go grocery shopping.

 

The Banks will be built completely on top of parking garages, so I don't see that being a problem anyway.

 

 

A smaller version of the Kroger Marketplace store would work well on the site with all of the parking plus if the original planned residential base is kept up they'll have enough people.  The magic number I've heard for people to a grocery store ~17,000:1 but if Kroger wants to make it happen they can.

The key is to keep prices somewhat close to suburban locations. The purchasing power of Kroger would help, but the expense of a downtown store might make it difficult. Although, I'm sure most downtowners would pay a little extra for the convience.

Banks developer sees lots of housing

BY JON NEWBERRY AND DAN KLEPAL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITERS

 

Cincinnati's well-laid plans for The Banks are suddenly up in the air.

 

As the Banks Working Group and the Atlanta-based AIG/Carter team begin talks on a development agreement, the size, scale and scope of the 16-acre residential, retail and office project on the riverfront are up for negotiation.

 

Full story text is available at

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060925/NEWS01/609250353/1056

holy crap!!! with that many more people downtown the whole downtown would change soon after and become a virbant place where places stay open after 6 p.m. lol. that could be awesome.

holy crap!!! with that many more people downtown the whole downtown would change soon after and become a virbant place where places stay open after 6 p.m. lol. that could be awesome.

 

I believe if you check my posts, I indicated that this was the way to go. Very smart approach by the developers.  I will say that the figure mentioned in the article may be overboard.  I don't want buildings to be too tall in that area and I do feel if you build to many resendential units, it will detract from other buildings. Still, resendential building is the key to downtown.  The way to change the dynamic of downtown is to have people living there, not create gimmicky attratctions.  Cincy already has plenty as far as cultural options...its time to get people living there now.

Cincy already has plenty as far as cultural options...its time to get people living there now.

 

Bingo.  As people bring culture.

the KEY to this is making these units AFFORDABLE!  younger people...such as myself...would eat these units up if they were reasonable.  i definately think this is an "if you build it they will come" situation.  hopefully AIG has their hands around this concept.  affordability would also avoid any so called "competition" with the currently proposed projects dowtown because you have to sell your soul to the money gods to even consider buying any of those.

While I think Bortz brings up a good point about Cincy supporting all that residential capacity, one dynamic that I think will help are the empty nester baby boomers that don't want to necessarily leave Cincy.  I think you will see a lot of demand from 60 somethings (and the ones willing to move are't usually the old foagie types). I also think it will give nice options to 20 and 30 something singles. It could be a really nice dynamic there.

While I support as much residential as economically possible, those numbers are really high. Either they expect downtown Cincy to start consuming residential units at a MUCH higher rate, or they plan on having a ten year buildout for the project?

^i think a build out of at least 10 years has been expected all along right?

Along bui

^i think a build out of at least 10 years has been expected all along right?

That would make snese.  While people want to see this project go up asap (understandably so), its important to proceed slowly and let the Banks build up based on demand, interest, needs etc etc.

yeah that sounds like the sensible route. but also maybe by being such a large project they can make more affordable units by building more units on a smaller plot of land (by building up) and attract the 20 and 30 somethings. I'd need cost of living statistics and property values etc to say for sure so I'm not stating this as fact but just out of general principle. If this were the case the banks wouldn't even need to advertise much to sell units, that spot already has visibility and appeal. plus I think some people in the area have a bad opinion of the back part of downtown near otr but this spot would break that stereotype because its up between the stadiums.

Is building up instead of out really more cost effective? It would be interesting to see the numbers.

^I'm sure there are many factors that influence the numbers. Urban v. suburban, materials, roof type, soil composition, etc. In a successful urban center, building up is going to be cheaper simply due to land costs.

see I've heard opinions both ways. I know that varies alot by city and just changes over time as well but considering the banks is at a GREAT location I'd think in this case it would pay to build up if you really wanted to utilize the full extent of the property in the long run but again thats just my opinion. I'll look for some numbers tonight and over the next couple days to see and post what I find.

Wouldn't those numbers put us at one of the most populous downtown's in the midwest?

While I support as much residential as economically possible, those numbers are really high. Either they expect downtown Cincy to start consuming residential units at a MUCH higher rate, or they plan on having a ten year buildout for the project?

 

A wise man once said:  "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss...you'll land amung the stars."

:-D

 

Wouldn't those numbers put us at one of the most populous downtown's in the midwest?

 

I think that it would, except for Chicago....obviously!

A wise man once said:  "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss...you'll land amung the stars."

 

Actually, you'd plummet back to earth, burning up on re-entry to the atmosphere...and regardless, you'd never get closer than 4+ light years from the nearest star.

 

Maybe the quote you meant is, "If I reach for the stars, I might not touch them.  But I won't come up with a handful of dirt."  Don't know who said that originally...regardless, I agree completely with the sentiment!

 

Is the banks at all catering to drawing families?  Or is the concept of someone wanting to raise their 2 or 3 kids downtown absolutely ridiculous?  Well lets see.  First of all, lets see,  What would a 3 to 4  bedroom condo on the banks cost?    Also, I would have to think twice about telling the kids to go out and play.  Especially on Bengal Sundays.    Unless of course they turned the entire Banks into a closed community with playgrounds  and affordable condos.  If that really were the case I bet they would have no problem selling out as many condos and as many floors that could be built.

Is the banks at all catering to drawing families?

 

Downtown already does, not many, but it does in rare occassions.

 

Or is the concept of someone wanting to raise their 2 or 3 kids downtown absolutely ridiculous?

 

Absolutely not. And my wife and I plan on doing just that.

 

What would a 3 to 4  bedroom condo on the banks cost? Also, I would have to think twice about telling the kids to go out and play.  Especially on Bengal Sundays.

 

A 4 bedroom seems to me to be a bit much, especially with kids. Does one really need that much room? This is a lose some gain some situation. You may not have the closed gated community (equates with safe) that you would in let's say West Chester, but there is a balance. Less time driving around and more time spent with family. Actually walking to the park and riverfront as if it's in your back yard (which it would be). Going home on lunch breaks (if you work downtown). Less time spent running errands, going to the doctor, the eye doctor, the dentist, picking up small grocery items (i.e. milk, eggs, cereal, ibuprofen, etc ...) and spending it with friends and family.

 

Bengals Sundays? Get real ... have you ever been to a Bengal tailgate party? Enough said.

 

The point is, you are bringing up "problems" other families have been working with for years in cities like Chicago, NYC, etc ...

 

Regardless, if anyone is familiar with the condo market right now in DT Cincy, then they know there is not a problem selling out (unless it's the Gateway Condos).

Or is the concept of someone wanting to raise their 2 or 3 kids downtown absolutely ridiculous?

 

Absolutely not. And my wife and I plan on doing just that.

 

What would a 3 to 4  bedroom condo on the banks cost? Also, I would have to think twice about telling the kids to go out and play.  Especially on Bengal Sundays.

 

A 4 bedroom seems to me to be a bit much, especially with kids. Does one really need that much room? This is a lose some gain some situation. You may not have the closed gated community (equates with safe) that you would in let's say West Chester, but there is a balance. Less time driving around and more time spent with family. Actually walking to the park and riverfront as if it's in your back yard (which it would be). Going home on lunch breaks (if you work downtown). Less time spent running errands, going to the doctor, the eye doctor, the dentist, picking up small grocery items (i.e. milk, eggs, cereal, ibuprofen, etc ...) and spending it with friends and family.

 

 

Nice to hear this...my husband and I have discussed raising kids downtown or in the outskirts several times.

Just let AIG do whatever it thinks the market will absorb.  They are the ones taking the risk.  The more the city/county get involved to dictate exactly how this goes, down the number of units, the more likely the whole thing will crater and AIG will back away.

Just let AIG do whatever it thinks the market will absorb.  They are the ones taking the risk.  The more the city/county get involved to dictate exactly how this goes, down the number of units, the more likely the whole thing will crater and AIG will back away.

 

I don't think there will be a big market for families to be honest but they'll definitely be a few.

Various Cincinnati officials have been saying since the 1970s that too much development on the riverfront will hurt the CBD.  It's rather funny when you look across the river at Newport and Covington, where they've built hotels, residential (both apartments and condos), and office space....with more on the way.

 

The key to The Banks is integrating it into the new Central Riverfront Park and into Downtown.  It would combine true urban living with all the amenities along the riverfront, something that other projects can't offer to the same extent.

From my understanding, large corporations downtown bring in much more revenue than condos so I honestly don't care about condo development downtown. Maybe that's what they meant in the 70s? (The Last Don).I'd like to see the condo development going up in the nearby neighborhoods that are deteriorating. Then of course better mass transit connecting it. :] It's kind of depressing that the east side along the river down by central parkway is seeing so much improvement yet the west side along the river is still abandoned. I really hope that whatever condos go up on the Banks are not cheap and tacky looking like UP at UC.

From my understanding, large corporations downtown bring in much more revenue than condos so I honestly don't care about condo development downtown. Maybe that's what they meant in the 70s? (The Last Don).I'd like to see the condo development going up in the nearby neighborhoods that are deteriorating. Then of course better mass transit connecting it. :] It's kind of depressing that the east side along the river down by central parkway is seeing so much improvement yet the west side along the river is still abandoned. I really hope that whatever condos go up on the Banks are not cheap and tacky looking like UP at UC.

Yes, but it is alot harder to entice companies to the CBD then it is residents.  Most companies really do not need to operate downtown.  I say most companies, not all. 

Condos downtown will bring a tremendous amount of benefits to the whole region, including to the other urban neighborhoods.  It makes downtown safer, and the people living there help support more local businesses, which can stay open at night.  A vibrant downtown such as Chicago makes the entire region more attractive to people and businesses that are looking at the area.

 

Covington and Newport are both focusing on condo development on the riverfront because they know that this will boost their stagnating populations while invigorating the urban core.

Condos downtown will a tremendous amount of benefits to the whole region, including to the other urban neighborhoods.  It makes downtown safer, and the people living there help support more local businesses, which can stay open at night.  A vibrant downtown such as Chicago makes the entire region more attractive to people and businesses that are looking at the area.

 

Covington and Newport are both focusing on condo development on the riverfront because they know that this will boost their stagnating populations while invigorating the urban core.

 

You nailed it.  People living downtown will create a domino effect, which will  help the overall city in countless ways. Attracting Corporations down or getting them to stay, for that matter,  is a more challenging issue but not unique to Cincy.  In my own NYC, for example, more and more companies are leaving b/c its just too damn expensive. Companies are eitehr flocing to the burbs or moving to cheaper adjacent areas like Long Island City and Jersey City.  This trend can be said for many cities in the U.S. I think incentives are a key.

it's the locationless worker phenomena, free to go wherever they want many workers are not tied down to a single place, look at condo development across the country and the hottest markets for yps aren't all Fortune 5 meccas.  What would be a sin would be to have this nice development with little use beyond 6.

I tend to somewhat question the real domino effect of downtown residents.  I used to think it was common sense that such a theory would work but then you see cities like Miami where there are tons of condo towers downtown and still nothing going on.  Perhaps Miami is just an anomily?

People in Ohio like their houses. I guess sometimes different regions just follow different trends.

Condos downtown will a tremendous amount of benefits to the whole region, including to the other urban neighborhoods.  It makes downtown safer, and the people living there help support more local businesses, which can stay open at night.  A vibrant downtown such as Chicago makes the entire region more attractive to people and businesses that are looking at the area.

 

Covington and Newport are both focusing on condo development on the riverfront because they know that this will boost their stagnating populations while invigorating the urban core.

 

You nailed it.  People living downtown will create a domino effect, which will  help the overall city in countless ways. Attracting Corporations down or getting them to stay, for that matter,  is a more challenging issue but not unique to Cincy.  In my own NYC, for example, more and more companies are leaving b/c its just too damn expensive. Companies are eitehr flocing to the burbs or moving to cheaper adjacent areas like Long Island City and Jersey City.  This trend can be said for many cities in the U.S. I think incentives are a key.

 

That domino effect could go in a positive or negative way.

I tend to somewhat question the real domino effect of downtown residents.  I used to think it was common sense that such a theory would work but then you see cities like Miami where there are tons of condo towers downtown and still nothing going on.  Perhaps Miami is just an anomaly?

 

Interesting point, edale.

 

I think that architecture may have a big impact on how alive an area becomes.  Certain areas are designed better than others for cultural life.  For instance, compare the amazing built environment of South Beach to that of Fifth Street in downtown Cincinnati.  We've got bank complexes, Procter & Gamble, the Chiquita Center, and several government buildings.  Those blocks are going to be as dead as a doornail no matter what...

 

But Cincinnati still has enough to work with to have a lively downtown.  That's why I think that it's vitally important that the Banks is integrated into the riverfront park and into the urban streetlife of downtown.  The renderings produced by the Port Authority were almost perfect for this project to spark new life into the area. 

 

The one thing that needs to happen is for there to be a connection between The Banks and downtown.  That means building over Fort Washington Way, and constructing condos north of Third Street with street level retail.  It is of the utmost importance that Third Street is lined with shops and cafes, so that it attracts life day and night.

 

For downtown to succeed as a livable environment, Third Street cannot become another Fifth Street.

 

For instance, compare the amazing built environment of South Beach to that of Fifth Street in downtown Cincinnati.

 

Topless chicks and South Beach skirts help too...

 

Though smart-ass comment aside, I agree entirely.  The open-fronted restaurants, with sidewalk seating, all up on the sidewalk along the main drag - that's just a wonderful way to spend a meal...skyscrapers are fine, but you've gotta engage the pedestrians...that integral connection, merging from street to patio seating to open-fronted indoor seating to apartments/condo's/hotels - that's almost as beautiful as the people!

 

If the Banks goes up to 3000 units and downtown continues to grow at about 800-1000 residents a year, then the downtown population will be about 15-20,000 by the time the project is completed.  This number is probably unrealistically high, but if you factor in Betts-Longworth and OTR 20-25k residents in greater downtown is a real possibility. 

 

Why doesn't someone put a Whole Foods at 8th and Broadway in the St. Xavier lot.  Put condos above it, a garage below which you give an appurtenant easement to the Church on Sundays and Christmas.  That would be a liscene to print money.

Why doesn't someone put a Whole Foods at 8th and Broadway in the St. Xavier lot.  Put condos above it, a garage below which you give an appurtenant easement to the Church on Sundays and Christmas.  That would be a liscene to print money.

 

Thomasbw

You sound like you are in law school

I am, also I misspelled license

Excellent points here guys.  Some more thoughts:

 

- Totally agree that the type of buildings/businesses that exist have big impact on how alive an area becomes.  Certain areas are designed better than others for cultural life.  Midtown and downtown Manhattan, for example, have condos and are still somewhat  dead at night compared to other areas  b/c the buildings are mostly sky scrapers/bank buildings/headquarters etc.  This goes for most business districts in US cities.

-Still w/ all the residents built in CBD,  the cultural attractions like airnoff and museums,  and the proximity to OTR, which has loads of potential, it is absolutely essential to connect the banks to this area and t/f I completely agree that 3rd street development is a key.

- I personally thought they already did a good job of connecting the roadways b/w the Banks and CBD.  I guess you guys think building over Ft. Washington way as a necessity to connect it even more?  As for building over the highway, how feasible is that?  Can you build deep enough for a solid foundation for buildings?

- Wholefoods somewhere downtown is a tremendous idea.

 

Actually the money to build over fort washington way was already partially invested.  During the reconstruction they spent around 10 million or so to allow it to be decked in the future.  The estimated additional cost to deck the entire stretch is about 46 million

 

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/fww-tunnel.html