Whatever is built above FWW will have to be very modest because any parking decks would pretty much be the most expensive in the city.  And since parking will be maxed out elsewhere in the area, any major development above the decks would require on-site parking. It's about 150ft. across the trench, with the center median supports any multi-level parking deck would need hundreds of 75ft. steel beams.  This is much more expensive than typical parking garage construction, with 30ft. spans.  I don't know the material costs but if a traditional concrete above-ground garage costs $30,000 per space (a number that gets tossed around), this could easily be pushing $100,000 per space.   

Here is a recent shot of Atlantic Station from a blimp:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/pimpsquad27/atlanticstationair.jpg

 

I'm not too impressed, folks.   

 

Neither am I, but it sure doesn't look like the same situation, it could be in the middle of Butler County. I'm thinking their desire to built more units would mean taller, fuller buildings, but who knows?

Take out the highrises and the big boxes and there is definitely a resemblance to the original Banks rendering.

Whatever is built above FWW will have to be very modest because any parking decks would pretty much be the most expensive in the city.  And since parking will be maxed out elsewhere in the area, any major development above the decks would require on-site parking. It's about 150ft. across the trench, with the center median supports any multi-level parking deck would need hundreds of 75ft. steel beams.  This is much more expensive than typical parking garage construction, with 30ft. spans.  I don't know the material costs but if a traditional concrete above-ground garage costs $30,000 per space (a number that gets tossed around), this could easily be pushing $100,000 per space. 

 

The only thing going above FWW is greenspace.  No parking decks, no buildings.

 

The only thing going above FWW is greenspace.  No parking decks, no buildings.

 

I would tend to agree.  You figure the banks will consist of green space anyway so why not build it there rather than compromising planned buildings.  If they do develop 3rd street, it could create a very attractive area with resendential buildings overlooking a nice park, kind of like Central Park West (or east).

^^I think the jury is still out on whether there will or will not be anything atop FWW.  They had originally planned for the area to be parkspace; however, there have been grumblings before about possibly building some kind of structure(s) above FWW.  By the early look of things, AIG is looking to build on as much as possible on the site.....and I would think that if at all possible that this site would also be included in their development plans.  I'm not sure of the schematics of how this will work (in reguards to who controls the decking area above FWW), but I believe that deals could be worked out.

 

I would like to see bldgs along the streets that connect through from the CBD to the Banks (Vine, Main, etc).  This, IMO, would allow for a more seamless transition between the two areas.

Well, the cap will end before Main, so none along Main, unless you want to drive pillings again.

 

Personally, I think the park space idea is best. Building over a highway isn't a good long-term solution; in 50/60 years, altering the highway would be amazingly costly. Urban highway construction is already astronomical, add building on top, and it only gets worse. I would hope ODOT/FHA wouldn't sell the air rights. Besides, the park plan is appealing, and having 3rd street exposed and fronted with a park will hopefully encourage more infill, which it drastically needs.

That's a really good point, Ink.  My hope is that Third Street development is pedestrian-oriented whichever way it is built.

Capping FWW would have to be a priority before any development would occur along Third St. or even any new buildings that would front Second.  The noise of FWW is quite loud along Second and Third, and during cetain times of the day its difficult to even carry on a converstation on the sidewalk.  Not a very pleasant place to have an outdoor cup of coffee or dining experience. 

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Second and Third both bare concrete?  Converting those two to asphalt or any other type of road covering would go a long way in reducing the noise.  Also slowing down the speed limit and controling the speed on those two roads is a must before any development should occur.

^ only second street is concrete because its essentially bridge decking.  they do need to so something about the western portion of 3rd street.  cars get up to 50 mph as they approach the highway onramp and it gets very very dangerous.  i really dont think traffic noise is that big a deal.  i eat lunch almost every day on the concrete benches on third and rarely have any trouble enjoying it...including hearing what other people are saying.  i do think that covering the highway with a green space would kickstart redevelopment and infill along 3rd.  i dont think there is a single storefront on third street and that is obviously because of the previous FWW arangement.

Covering FWW would essentially solve any problems that 3rd street  encountered due to noise/inconvenience etc etc.  If some kind of open green space is there and residences/stores are built on the other side, jsut south of the green space, I think you will see 3rd street develop.  Would capping FWW be that costly? 

Yes, everything is expensive because of the high union wages and corruption that goes hand in hand with any government-funded construction project. 

 

The phony cable-stayed bridges at Elm and Main St. that scream second-tier city, they were a result of the "beautification" package the city forked out something like $15 million for, in tandem with the pointless "Gateways" project which includes the Paddock Rd. bridge over I-75 and the quickly deteriorating pedestrian bridge over Gilbert Ave next to the Greyhound station.  The FWW package also included the textured material that lines the trench walls and fancier lighting and street trees.  The main reason why piles were only driven halfway between Elm & Race and Walnut & Main was to preserve the ridiculous gateway bridges.  You know how newspapers and magazines are all trying to look like the internet now?  I feel like the whole gateway style trend was trying to look like the internet.  It was all just a disgusting waste of public money. 

 

Also, ventilation is a major issue which will probably be handled by grates similar to those at Union Terminal above Dalton St.  There is also no reason why the whole thing has to be done at once, the I-90 tunnel under the Prudential Center in Boston has grown piecemeal over the last 40 years.  There is actually an entrance ramp that you enter by turning from the street into a parking garage.  The parking garage was built relatively recently and they just left the ramp where it was. 

 

Here is the Prudential tunnel.  The garage I'm talking is on the right side and has a parallelogram shape:

 

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=boston&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=1&z=16&ll=42.348601,-71.080856&spn=0.007501,0.021286&iwloc=A

 

Here is a shorter but relevant expressway decking in Seattle:

 

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=seattle&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=47.610214,-122.330296&spn=0.006842,0.021286&t=k&om=1

 

Another park-covered expressway in Seattle, on Mercer Island:

 

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=seattle&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=47.591737,-122.241526&spn=0.006845,0.021286&t=k&om=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the phony cables bridges. Bw the faux cables, and the greenery, the goal was to "beautify" the area and I think they did a good job. 

Yeah, I like the Roebling homage of the fake bridges too...

I think a good and very feasible idea for The Banks would be a mix of commercial/residential with a pedestrian-only promenade running right down the middle (north/south) from Vine down to the river.  The promenade would have shops on each side, some kind of pavers/cobblestone and a landscaped median (picture Rockefeller Center).  I think it could attract some medium/upscale shops i.e. banana Republic, Cole Haan, J Crew, Sharper Image etc etc.

 

I think this would essentially become THE shopping destination for the Cincy and would be an overall destination for anyone downtown i.e. "we are in Cincy/downtown, lets go to the Promenade".  Even if people are window-shopping/ taking a walk to the river etc etc, it would attract people.  I think the bars and restaurants could be spread out on the other streets in the banks but the promenade would be "pure shopping" perhaps until the end where you could have two cafes on the right and left over looking the river/river-parks.  The promenade itself could end with a balcony type setting overlooking the river/park.   

 

Here is a link of a pic the Rockefeller promenade which has the rink and Christmas tree at the end instead of a river. (Cincy's median does not have to be this extravegant).

 

http://www.plombenzieher.de/nycvisit/pics/rockefeller6.jpg

^I like the bridges too, just not the color. I was wandering around down there when a few workers were painting them and asked what color they will be. He said that's it. I thought it was just a primer coat.

 

I also thought ventilating would be an issue with the FWIW covers. I think there also was a concern with the police and fire dept. have problems with them. But that turned out to be a non-issue.

 

I'll take some nice green space and be done with it.

Well, the cap will end before Main, so none along Main, unless you want to drive pillings again.

 

Personally, I think the park space idea is best. Building over a highway isn't a good long-term solution; in 50/60 years, altering the highway would be amazingly costly. Urban highway construction is already astronomical, add building on top, and it only gets worse. I would hope ODOT/FHA wouldn't sell the air rights. Besides, the park plan is appealing, and having 3rd street exposed and fronted with a park will hopefully encourage more infill, which it drastically needs.

 

By simply making it a park......you are creating a glorified entryway to the Banks (ie any stone entryway to suburban hell).  I understand that the covering would end at Main St....covering on the west side of main, not on the east side.  Therefore, you could put some type of structure along the western side of Main.  I am not saying that I want it to be un-pedestrian friendly, but rather the opposite.  I want the Banks to fit in with the urban context of the city seamlessly.  By having a park you still have that same visual barrier between the CBD and the riverfront.  I would like to see that, barrier, eliminated.

^I'm pretty sure the cap will stop 150 feet before Main, but I'm sure Jake will tell me if I'm wrong.

 

True, it might act as a barrier, but, if the Banks is done right, it will simply be like a long strip of greenspace, kind of a Central Parkway feel. I've never been to Boston, but I understand they left a long strip of parkland above one of their tunnels. I think it was space that used to be occupied by above ground freeway. Does anyone have any opinions on this greenspace?

 

Really, I'd like to place buildings there as well, but financially, I don't think it is a good idea.

If you have development on 3rd and development beginning just south of FWW on 2nd, some green space wwould not separate the areas, IMO.  The space over FWW is very narrow so if you create walkways in addition to the streets that exist, access and connectivity will exist. 

 

The alternative is building something over FWW. Such buildings would most likely have limitations given the location so I just don't think its worth it.

 

Does downtown have any kind of park right now anyway other than the secluded Lytle? ?

I think a good and very feasible idea for The Banks would be a mix of commercial/residential with a pedestrian-only promenade running right down the middle (north/south) from Vine down to the river.  The promenade would have shops on each side, some kind of pavers/cobblestone and a landscaped median (picture Rockefeller Center).  I think it could attract some medium/upscale shops i.e. banana Republic, Cole Haan, J Crew, Sharper Image etc etc.

 

I think this would essentially become THE shopping destination for the Cincy and would be an overall destination for anyone downtown i.e. "we are in Cincy/downtown, lets go to the Promenade".  Even if people are window-shopping/ taking a walk to the river etc etc, it would attract people.  I think the bars and restaurants could be spread out on the other streets in the banks but the promenade would be "pure shopping" perhaps until the end where you could have two cafes on the right and left over looking the river/river-parks.  The promenade itself could end with a balcony type setting overlooking the river/park.   

 

Here is a link of a pic the Rockefeller promenade which has the rink and Christmas tree at the end instead of a river. (Cincy's median does not have to be this extravegant).

 

http://www.plombenzieher.de/nycvisit/pics/rockefeller6.jpg

 

ohh i like this!  I'm thinking of the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica and if Cincy could have something like that it would be awesome

I spoke with part of the Cincinnati streetcar development group.  They are optimistic that the potential streetcar system will be extended into the banks to lessen the parking requirements of the project.  for more info see citystreetcar.net

^ unless I missed something (i did not download the PPP because of bandwidth restrictions)there was not too much to that site yet, but it gave me hope.

^the PPP was the primary component of the site.  I can email it to you if that would be easier. I don't know what bandwith restrictions are.

>>>I like the bridges too, just not the color. I was wandering around down there when a few workers were painting them and asked what color they will be. He said that's it. I thought it was just a primer coat.

 

Actually they had a grey primer coat for about a week before they were painted lime green, or whatever that color is. 

 

>Yeah, I like the Roebling homage of the fake bridges too...

 

I don't think it's referencing the Roebling bridge at all.  The Roebling bridge is one of those few great structures from the early days of industrialization where the hand and the coming machine age are plain to see and that era and so the things it produced can never be replicated.  In those phoney cable-stayed overpasses I see someone who was busy with other things was assigned an assignment, that's what they came up with real quick, nobody who could have thrown the drawings back in their face paid attention and so a month later some steel mill somewhere spit them out, and a week later they were lifted by a crane and bolted into place by one guy guiding them with a rope and the other guy wielding an impact wrench, a week later some guy on a cherry picker spray painted them, everyone got paid, and that was it.  They look like the realized version of a foam-core model I'd see getting a C- in a freshman level architecture class.  I mean, would you put a slide of those things in your portfolio if you designed them?

^the PPP was the primary component of the site.  I can email it to you if that would be easier. I don't know what bandwith restrictions are.

 

It would be the same deal.  I will eventually crack and open it anyways.  Thanks though.

Banks plan adds block of land north of stadium

Cincinnati Business Courier - October 13, 2006by Dan Monk

Triskaidekaphobes they are not.

 

The advisory panel in charge of the Banks riverfront project has added a 13th block to the list of those long considered part of the Banks. It is a triangular patch of land at the southwest corner of Second and Elm streets, north of Paul Brown Stadium.

 

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2006/10/16/tidbits2.html

Is this the parking lot?

Yes it is a parking lot, the one just north of PBS, here is a map...

 

Yes it is a parking lot, the one just north of PBS, here is a map...

 

 

Not sure what kind of develioment would really fit on that lot other than a parking garage or green space.  Given that there will be plenty of other areas for green space, i think a garage would make sense there.

I was always very curious how the planned on dealing with that wedge.  it would be a very awkard transition to the underground garages if this land was left out of the development...whether it been green space or parking or whatever.

Good news!, that is an awkward area that certainly needs to be addressed along with the rest of the project.

 

Prehaps they can find a way to connect the Bengal store (name?) with the Banks in a more pedestrian friendly manner.

Here's what the Banks should look like if they want to build residential:

 

 

In fact, everyone should just check out the pictures and text of this article about the parks of Paris, from whence I stole the image.

Maybe it would help if I provided a link:

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0610/feature3/index.html

 

Good lookin out, Cramer.

Here's what the Banks should look like if they want to build residential:

 

 

In fact, everyone should just check out the pictures and text of this article about the parks of Paris, from whence I stole the image.

 

Almost every town should be taking notes from that.

>Scientists suspect that green space also has a restorative effect on our voluntary attention, the kind of intense focus required to work or study

 

Bleh bleh bleh.  This whole restorative idea of nature is ridiculous.  When do civilized people these days experience "nature"?  During good weather and with full stomachs, that's when.  The forces of nature are entirely indifferent to your well-being, the "perfection" of nature is an idea humans invented as something that could be pointed to which opposed the imperfections and unfairness of civilization.  "Nature" really, really sucks when you got lost in the woods and so now you're hungry, it's raining, and you're 8 (23? -- who knows, you're lost!) miles from your car.  City parks frame happy, full-stomached, temperate climate nature. 

 

>In our modern era, with all its pressures, contact with nature in urban settings may be more crucial than ever

 

Uh, barbary had a lot more pressures, like the teeth of hyenas through your butt cheeks.  Go out roll around in nature all day and let the urushiols get all up between your toes and fingers and nostrils.             

     

       

 

^So jmecklenborg doesn't like William Wordsworth.  Understandable.  But aren't the pictures pretty?

It's Wadsworth, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.  Unfortunately, they don't cover him in the schools anymore, or Walt Whitman, or any of those guys from the 1800's, you're on your own.  Poems like Song of Hiawatha are part of the cultural trend which began in the 19th century which paired American Indians with Nature, in that both are/were pure and superior to civilization and white culture.  Both of those ideas of course required an ignorance of surviving in nature and first-hand knowledge of native cultures in order to start gathering moss and of course they are perpetuated today all over pop culture and in the schools.  It's like, why don't the schools cover the Lewis & Clark expedition in any detail?  Because the Indians they encountered were typically totally irrational and uncooperative with each other, thought nothing of offering their wives up as prostitutes to the expedition, and set their elderly parents out in the woods to die when they became a burden.  The 13 year-old boys in some areas had to kill a neighboring tribesmen in order to be a man, keeping the overall population down.  And then Meriwether Lewis goes crazy and kills himself.  In today's feminized schools, all that could be a little to much for little Billy or Lisa's brain to handle.         

 

 

>But aren't the pictures pretty?

 

Sure, but to go an build a block-length of row buildings in differing styles is pretty inauthentic these days, those types of streetscapes evolved over centuries as individual property owners built and modified their individual building as they saw fit.  Walt Disney, et al, have done a much better job imitating that than any other recent planned areas, and certainly Disneyworld's or Kings Island's main streets seem like much more of a place than most suburban development in the former swamps around Orlando and badlands belting Cincinnati.  I would hope that where they choose to take the historical route in riverfront development, they copy existing buildings pretty much exactly.  I always shake my head when some attempt is made in Cincinnati on a new building, when there are thousands of the real thing within a 15-minute walk.           

 

Wordsworth was a pretty big nature guy too.

 

http://www.bartleby.com/145/ww134.html

 

UP! up! my Friend, and quit your books;

Or surely you'll grow double:

Up! up! my Friend, and clear your looks;

Why all this toil and trouble?

 

The sun, above the mountain's head,

A freshening lustre mellow

Through all the long green fields has spread,

His first sweet evening yellow.

 

Books! 'tis a dull and endless strife:

Come, hear the woodland linnet,                            10

How sweet his music! on my life,

There's more of wisdom in it.

 

And hark! how blithe the throstle sings!

He, too, is no mean preacher:

Come forth into the light of things,

Let Nature be your teacher.

 

She has a world of ready wealth,

Our minds and hearts to bless--

Spontaneous wisdom breathed by health,

Truth breathed by cheerfulness.                            20

 

One impulse from a vernal wood

May teach you more of man,

Of moral evil and of good,

Than all the sages can.

 

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings;

Our meddling intellect

Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:--

We murder to dissect.

 

Enough of Science and of Art;

Close up those barren leaves;                              30

Come forth, and bring with you a heart

That watches and receives.

 

Yeah, I was referring to William Wordsworth, who helped launch Romanticism in Britain and therefore throughout the English-speaking world.  That's where you first start to see a major intellectual, "back to nature" push in English, though Rousseau and Goethe were doing that sort of thing a bit eartlier on the Continent.  The major American figure for that type of thing is of course Henry David Thoreau.  A friend of mine called Thoreau a phony because she said Thoreau's mother cooked for him when he was living at Walden Pond.

 

>But aren't the pictures pretty?

 

Sure, but to go an build a block-length of row buildings in differing styles is pretty inauthentic these days, those types of streetscapes evolved over centuries as individual property owners built and modified their individual building as they saw fit. 

 

Well, maybe.  But that was a picture of the Place Dauphine, on the Ile de la Cite, in Paris, much of which was torn down by Haussman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris, and check out the maps of the transformation of the Ile de la Cite on the right) during the mid to late 19th Century.  Those apartments probably aren't more than 130 years old, comparative to a decent number of buildings in Cincinnati.  I wouldn't be surprised if all those buildings didn't date from the same year, or even the same builder.  Anyway, I wasn't suggesting that the spot be copied in detail, but rather that the aesthetic of the entire ensemble drive l'esprit de contruction.

 

In today's feminized schools, all that could be a little to much for little Billy or Lisa's brain to handle.

 

Now who's the Romantic?  It seems you just lean more to Turnvater Jahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ludwig_Jahn) than Wordsworth.

I think almost everyone will agree that green spce is very important and should/will be part of the Banks.

 

So what is the next step?  Are we waiting for AIG to release preliminary plans?  If so, what is the timeline?

It's Wadsworth, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.  Unfortunately, they don't cover him in the schools anymore, or Walt Whitman, or any of those guys from the 1800's, you're on your own.            

 

 

yeah they do. At least my school does.

I think almost everyone will agree that green spce is very important and should/will be part of the Banks.

 

So what is the next step?  Are we waiting for AIG to release preliminary plans?  If so, what is the timeline?

 

Yes, I believe that is what we are waiting on now.  From there it has to be approved by the planning commission/banks working group.

 

After that is all said and done (and hopefully approved) then construction can begin.

I've been to that park in Paris, same island as Notre Dame.  I liked it, but it had no grass. 

Oh, and Paris is the posterchild of what every city should be like. 

Here are the photos that I took of the park, I hope they work.  Sorry it is sooo small, it wouldn't fit otherwise. 

>It seems you just lean more to Turnvater Jahn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Ludwig_Jahn) than Wordsworth.

 

Well the Boy Scouts were formed and other efforts were made during industrialization to at the very least acquaint city children with the countryside, mountains, and woods.  There was that trend in the 1980's to construct "fitness trails" in parks, like the one at Bicentennial Commons under the Big Mac Bridge.  Hardly anyone uses those things.  And unfortunately, if more rigorous physical education was instituted in the schools, fleeting similarities to Triumph of the Will would flash in the libs' minds, and any such effort would be destroyed before the firt bead of sweat formed.  My two youngest brothers go to a private high school which requires ALL students to play a sport (an intermural at the least) at all times.  There isn't a single fat kid at that entire school.

 

 

>Well, maybe.  But that was a picture of the Place Dauphine, on the Ile de la Cite, in Paris, much of which was torn down by Haussman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris, and check out the maps of the transformation of the Ile de la Cite on the right) during the mid to late 19th Century.  Those apartments probably aren't more than 130 years old, comparative to a decent number of buildings in Cincinnati.  I wouldn't be surprised if all those buildings didn't date from the same year, or even the same builder.  Anyway, I wasn't suggesting that the spot be copied in detail, but rather that the aesthetic of the entire ensemble drive l'esprit de contruction.

 

Well we of course allowed Lytle Park to be destroyed, which was basically what we are talking about: 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and Paris is the posterchild of what every city should be like. 

 

I don't disagree but the one advantage Paris had/has is that is essentially the only significant French City ( I believe something crazy like 20% of the entire poulation lives in metro Paris).  It is their National Champion and t/f gets an exorbitant amount of federal money to make it  the "posterchild" of the world.  This general policy in fact goes back to the 1800s when Napoleon commissioned Hauptmann as central planner and paid beaucoup bucks to build the water system,  street plan etc etc. i'm talking major major money that no American city has even come close to seeing. 

 

Certainly the US does not have this kind of National City (Capitol DC is  the closesty thing; certainly not my native NY as a former President told them to 'drop dead'). Our cities have generall developed by local revenues and private wealth w/ the exception of the new deal times.  Even other major European countries i.e. Germany and Italy don't have such a national city They each have 2 or 3 major cities).

 

Paris is in a league of its own.

Ah, Paris.

 

 

For a bigger version, go here:

 

http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=232657409&size=o&context=set-72157594266373064

And unfortunately, if more rigorous physical education was instituted in the schools, fleeting similarities to Triumph of the Will would flash in the libs' minds, and any such effort would be destroyed before the firt bead of sweat formed.  My two youngest brothers go to a private high school which requires ALL students to play a sport (an intermural at the least) at all times.  There isn't a single fat kid at that entire school.

 

I don't think liberals are keeping public schools from instituting more rigorous physical education requirements.  Let's not forget that it was the Reagan administration that attempt to define ketchup as a vegetable in order to spend less money on the national school lunch program.  Most school cafeteria food is the same type of food they serve at prisons.  There is a fine article in a recent past New Yorker about the efforts of a woman to serve healthier lunches in the Oakland Public Schools.  These types of meals typically cost a lot more than how much each current meal does.  That's usually why people go to private schools- people who can afford it like to buy nice stuff for themselves.

 

I attended high school in the Cincinnati Public Schools and recall some year when the levy didn't pass and everyone who participate in athletics had to pay like $200 to do so that year.  I'm sure the kids who couldn't afford it were accomodated in some way.  Of course, we all had to register with the Communist Party and give a self-criticism on the last day of the month of Thermidor, but we were happy to participate in the Hundred Flowers Campaign to combat Rightist Thinking so long as we could still play sports.

 

WALNUT LAX RULES!

 

In other words, as amusing as this back-and-forth has been for me, I feel like it's gotten to the point of rudeness to the other contributors, so I'm done, though jmeck, feel free to respond.