May 2, 20187 yr Committee selects developer for music venue at the Banks The Joint Banks Steering Committee, a panel that makes recommendations to the city of Cincinnati and Hamilton County on how to develop the mixed-use project along the Ohio River, made its recommendation on which group should develop a music venue at the Banks. The committee voted 4-1 to recommend the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra develop an indoor/outdoor music venue at the Banks. Charlie Luken, a committee member and former mayor of Cincinnati, opposed recommending the CSO as the developer. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/05/02/committee-selects-developer-for-music-venue-at-the.html
May 2, 20187 yr The City/County aren't obliged to following the Steering Committee's recommendation, are they? Both Cranley and Seelbach are opposed to the CSO bid, so I imagine a few other council members might oppose it as well.
May 2, 20187 yr County Commissioners appear to be onboard with whatever the committee chooses (as long as there is no subsidy). "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
May 2, 20187 yr So disappointing and so not surprising. I hope PromoWest opens something in this city because they'll get way better acts then CSO.
May 3, 20187 yr Amanda Seitz tweeted this photo (apparently created by a lawyer for The Banks), showing how the CSO facility would be situated. It is absurd/infuriating that they seem to be trying MAXIMIZE green space north of Mehring. Have they really not internalized the fact that The Banks needs higher density and more activity?!?!! Smale is an absolutely outstanding park. We don’t need to put more park space on top of a massive, publicly funded garage. https://mobile.twitter.com/AmandaSeitz1/status/991734467415953408
May 3, 20187 yr ^Giving the job to a Cincinnati entity trumps any and all common sense. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
May 3, 20187 yr Amanda Seitz tweeted this photo (apparently created by a lawyer for The Banks), showing how the CSO facility would be situated. It is absurd/infuriating that they seem to be trying MAXIMIZE green space north of Mehring. Have they really not internalized the fact that The Banks needs higher density and more activity?!?!! Smale is an absolutely outstanding park. We don’t need to put more park space on top of a massive, publicly funded garage. https://mobile.twitter.com/AmandaSeitz1/status/991734467415953408 I hate the absurd amount of park space as much as you, but I wouldn't blame this on the CSO plan. The area to the east of the venue was always planned to be park space, as far as I can remember.
May 3, 20187 yr ^Agreed. The problems stem from the steering committee and the master developer, who have not done enough to push higher density.
May 3, 20187 yr How often is the Schmidlapp Event Lawn used for concerts? Who - if anybody - is responsible for programming that space? The Cincinnati Parks website shows on the map of Smale (last updated July 2017) that they intend all of the land between the current garage and Mehring to be greenspace, but I'm not clear if that's supposed to be on top of a new garage, or if the greenspace would be at the level with Mehring (in the flood zone). Has the County officially decided where the next round of parking garage expansion will go? Will it be south of the latest garage? Or to the west (filling in next to Elm)? http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SRP_MAP_20170710.pdf http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/smale-riverfront-park/
May 3, 20187 yr I live downtown and work across the river staring at Schmidlapp Event Lawn. It's barely ever used. Such a waste of prime real estate to make it just be green space when it could be something that actually makes the city money (condos, townhomes, retail, anything better then a grass field). The green space opposite the music venue is going to be an equal waste of real estate. The people on the banks committee are honestly idiots.
May 3, 20187 yr ^Probably a programming issue more than a problem with the space. Some sort of low key concert series could be cool there. Putting a building on the lawn would block the views from the apartments and hotel just to the north. I think it's ok to have that space remain open, and I don't have a problem with the little wedge space southwest of the carousel becoming an extension of the park either.
May 3, 20187 yr How often is the Schmidlapp Event Lawn used for concerts? Who - if anybody - is responsible for programming that space? The Cincinnati Parks website shows on the map of Smale (last updated July 2017) that they intend all of the land between the current garage and Mehring to be greenspace, but I'm not clear if that's supposed to be on top of a new garage, or if the greenspace would be at the level with Mehring (in the flood zone). Has the County officially decided where the next round of parking garage expansion will go? Will it be south of the latest garage? Or to the west (filling in next to Elm)? http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SRP_MAP_20170710.pdf http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/smale-riverfront-park/ I've only just started researching this who debacle but where exactly would an outdoor venue fit? It seems like parcel 13 would be a great spot for an outdoor concert venue similar to what we have in Salt Lake at Red Butte Garden
May 3, 20187 yr How does the first floor of the Anderson Pavilion handle flooding? Assuming something can be built at the same elevation, here's what I'd like to see for a hypothetical concert venue: A building with its primary "entrance" at street level at the corner of Elm/Mehring (elevation ~487'). The "back" of the building would - like the Express Live facility in Columbus - open up for outdoor concerts with terraced/sloping outdoor space to get up to the elevation of the top of the garages (~510'). The front of the building could have balconies overlooking Mehring and Elm. The outdoor area in the back could be used as outdoor park space when the facility isn't being used. Because of the natural incline and the angle, the outdoor area would have nice river views. I think it could be designed compactly enough that basically all of Lot 23 would be developable for other purposes. What I'm envisioning is actually not super different from how Moerlein Lager House occupies the corner with Main/Mehring, except I'd like to see the main entrance at street level with Mehring Way.
May 3, 20187 yr You can't put the entrance at Mehring Way level, that wouldn't allow for the garage underneath and would also be in the flood zone. Just put some steps on that corner or have the entrance be slightly up the street like Moerlein.
May 3, 20187 yr I guess part of my confusion about MEMI's application is, 10 years ago they built PNC Pavilion which has a capacity of 4,100, and now they want to build a venue of the exact same size at The Banks. So, are they giving up on PNC Pavilion? Did they lose money on PNC Pavilion or have they recouped construction costs and made enough profit to justify it being built? (Since they are a nonprofit, do they even care?) If a band is on tour and wants to play at a venue with a capacity of roughly 4000, how will MEMI decide whether to book them at PNC Pavilion or at The Banks? If they can't attract top tier acts to PNC Pavilion, how will they be able to attract them to The Banks? Will the new venue have food options that are more appealing to young people rather than the Larosas and Skyline that are offered at Riverbend/PNC? If so, why don't they focus on improving the dining options at Riverbend/PNC first?
May 3, 20187 yr ^Those are all valid questions and precisely why I want Promowest to get the spot. We already have livenation and CSO in the city, they will be competing against themselves. Promowest will add new events to the city, not just move them from Riverbend/PNC to downtown.
May 3, 20187 yr Will the new venue have food options that are more appealing to young people rather than the Larosas and Skyline that are offered at Riverbend/PNC? If so, why don't they focus on improving the dining options at Riverbend/PNC first? Millennials are DESTROYING Everything Cincinnati
May 3, 20187 yr You can't put the entrance at Mehring Way level, that wouldn't allow for the garage underneath and would also be in the flood zone. Just put some steps on that corner or have the entrance be slightly up the street like Moerlein. How does the Anderson Pavilion get away with its first floor being at street level? The advantage of putting the entrance at Mehring level is that it a) makes the street more interesting, b) reduces the total number of parking spaces built (the garages are overbuilt as is), c) allows for the stage to be BELOW the top of the garages, allowing for better views from the (outdoor) seats towards the river.
May 5, 20187 yr I think its time to put down the "Millennials destroy everything" quote. This is our demographic now. We like music, what can I say?
May 5, 20187 yr I wouldn’t say millennial are destroying everything. We are just making things the way we want them to be for our generation, so we can say to whatever group of young ppl in 2050 that they are destroying everything.
May 7, 20187 yr Amanda Seitz is reporting that the CSO bid allows for the "green" space immediately to the east of their site to get built out as "for-sale housing"... I don't really know what that means (who would develop the housing, would it be condos or apartments, how many units), but I'm glad to hear they're at least looking to put something other than park space there. This is an interesting tidbit from today, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra bid allows for to build out for-sale housing along Small Riverfront Park, in that green block to the right of the venue.
May 7, 20187 yr Symphony promises it will book cool bands if it gets prime Banks spot for concert venue Hamilton County commissioners examined the proposed deal to award land at the Banks for a concert venue to Music and Event Management Inc., the concert-venue arm of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, whose CEO pledged Monday to book up-and-coming bands at the new venue if it gets the deal. Commissioners and Cincinnati City Council would have to approve any deal to build an entertainment venue at the mixed-use riverfront project, with a commission vote potentially coming first. Mayor John Cranley favors awarding the bid to Columbus-based PromoWest Productions, not MEMI. PromoWest has proposed a $15.3 million venue with 2,500 indoor seats and capacity for 5,000 outdoors. While Commissioner Todd Portune has spoken favorably about MEMI’s $19 million bid, Commissioner Denise Driehaus, also a Democrat, asked whether MEMI could be counted on to book the hottest up-and-coming acts at the proposed indoor venue, which would seat up to 4,000, plus another 8,500 on outdoor Banks park land that the Cincinnati Board of Park Commissioners would have to build. Cranley has said there is no money as of now in the city budget for that park space called for in the 2008 agreement between the city and county to construct the Banks. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/05/07/symphony-promises-it-will-book-cool-bands-if-it.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 7, 20187 yr The CSO is only saying that because their bid makes the city less money. Since they're a non profit they wouldn't pay some taxes PromoWest and Live Nation would pay. The city would make ~$350,000 per year off ticket and amusement taxes for those two options compared to the $0 from CSO. So to make their bid seem like the better financial choice they're using the fact their venue will take up less space and making it seem like money the city will get to use. They're claiming that each acre on The Banks is worth $4 million and that PromoWest's and Live Nation's concert venues would have taken up $9 to $10 million worth of real estate. Whereas the CSO's concert venue would take up $3 million worth of land. But I'll believe they'll put housing there when I see it. According to the master plan show above the area south and east of where the CSO space will go has always been planned to be part of the park. Castellini even said last week part of the reason they picked CSO is because it would have more green space. I wish they would use that space for something other then just more of the park but like I said I'll believe that when I see it.
May 7, 20187 yr Artists coming soon to PromoWest’s Express Live: http://www.promowestlive.com/search?venue=7 Artists coming soon to Symphony/MEMI’s PNC Pavilion & Riverbend: http://www.riverbend.org/event-list/?tribe_paged=1&tribe_event_display=list One of these two companies has a clear track record of booking "cool" bands, and one doesn't.
May 8, 20187 yr We also need to keep in mind what memi is doing to midpoint. Have they made that more "cool"? ???
May 8, 20187 yr In all fairness I would not say PromoWest has brought in "cooler" bands since taking over Bunbury. In fact it more often has gone the other way. MEMI also did a good job with MidPoint in 2017. With that being said I would prefer PromoWest for this venue because of the design and the fact that they would be new to the market.
May 8, 20187 yr According to this: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/05/07/cincinnati-symphony-assures-county-leaders-they-would-book-hip-acts-banks/585635002/ The CSO's proposal also saves real estate on The Banks, Gabelman said. It would take up one-third of the space of the concert venues proposed by Live Nation and PromoWest. That means millions of dollars for The Banks, he said. Each acre on The Banks is worth $4 million, Gabelman said. PromoWest's and Live Nation's concert venues would have taken up $9 million to $10 million worth of real estate. Whereas the CSO's concert venue would take up $3 million worth of land. I wish we had more detailed site plans, but if the CSO/MEMI site plan really does maximize the other developable land, that's a genuine advantage. I still would rather have PromoWest be the owner/operator, but (for me) a lot comes down to the design, architecture, and site plan.
May 8, 20187 yr But the block that CSO/MEMI and PromoWest chose was never going to be "developable land", it was going to be part of Smale Park. Only LiveNation's proposal takes land that was going to actually be developed as part of The Banks.
May 9, 20187 yr But the block that CSO/MEMI and PromoWest chose was never going to be "developable land", it was going to be part of Smale Park. Only LiveNation's proposal takes land that was going to actually be developed as part of The Banks. You sure about that? According to the 2016 "Master Plan" on The Banks website, it showed buildings lining Elm St, with just a little corner "park" at the corner of Elm/Mehring. I doubt any of the concert venue proposals would fit in that tiny parcel, so I'm assuming the concert venues would take all/most of Lot 10. Carter is no longer the master developer, but no replacement has been selected... and as far as I know, no new master plan has been shown. It frustrates me that through this public RFP process, the Joint Steering Committee hasn't even been able to put together a reasonable site plan showing how a concert venue would fit into the surrounding parcels. Here are two different old site plans (one from Carter and one from Cincinnati Parks) showing that the intention was to build on the land right next to Elm St.
May 11, 20187 yr Investor: City, county will lose $1.1M yearly if Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra runs concert venue City and county taxpayers will miss out on $1.1 million every year if the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is selected to run a concert venue at The Banks, according to the riverfront project’s biggest private investor. Investor Mark Nicol urged Cincinnati City Council and Hamilton County Commissioners to instead select Columbus-based PromoWest as the developer for the project, according to a letter Nicol sent Thursday. WCPO obtained a copy of the letter through a public records request. Nicol’s letter picked apart the CSO bid, questioning whether it could attract top artists, and suggesting that their idea to build a “temporary” outdoor stage for concerts would be underutilized.
May 18, 20187 yr Perhaps this has already been posted, but here is a link to a video rendering of the proposed MEMI venue. I'm not an architect and have no design sensibility, but I actually quite like it. Whether it offers what The Banks needs is obviously another question. https://memi.biz/news/memi-recommended-jbsc-build-new-music-venue-banks The dropbox link below the video contains renderings of the proposed outdoor space as well.
May 18, 20187 yr Perhaps this has already been posted, but here is a link to a video rendering of the proposed MEMI venue. I'm not an architect and have no design sensibility, but I actually quite like it. Whether it offers what The Banks needs is obviously another question. https://memi.biz/news/memi-recommended-jbsc-build-new-music-venue-banks The dropbox link below the video contains renderings of the proposed outdoor space as well. Thanks for sharing! I hadn't seen that video or the site plan before. I still don't love the idea of giving away all that land south of the garages to the parks and a non-profit (MEMI). Also - I really hope they come up with a different name from "Riverview"... it's just too similar to "Riverbend" (which MEMI also operates) and will create confusion.
May 18, 20187 yr I like the interior of the building, but it is not the right feel for a youthful rock music venue. It reminds me of the Shakespeare Company, which makes sense, as the same architecture firm did both projects. It looks like a great place for people in formalwear to sip cocktails overlooking Smale Park. It does not look like a place that people attending indie rock or hip hop concerts will want to hang out. And the temporary outdoor stage is a joke. We just invested millions of dollars into making our riverfront look nice, and now we're going to put up temporary fences and vinyl tents for summer concerts? The casino used to do this all the time and it looked awful.
May 18, 20187 yr I like the interior of the building, but it is not the right feel for a youthful rock music venue. It reminds me of the Shakespeare Company, which makes sense, as the same architecture firm did both projects. It looks like a great place for people in formalwear to sip cocktails overlooking Smale Park. It does not look like a place that people attending indie rock or hip hop concerts will want to hang out. And the temporary outdoor stage is a joke. We just invested millions of dollars into making our riverfront look nice, and now we're going to put up temporary fences and vinyl tents for summer concerts? The casino used to do this all the time and it looked awful. ^Agreed on all those points.
May 18, 20187 yr I like the idea of having the concert lawn open to the public while there is no event going on, (the alternative being a large fenced off area), but I would like the stage and facilities to be more permanent as well. www.cincinnatiideas.com
May 18, 20187 yr The building is nice looking, but does feel a little too fancy. I'm sure after VEing and adding some band posters it wouldn't feel like the Shakespeare Company anymore. This is probably not Memi or GBBN's doing, but I hate the cul-de-sac that is up on a retaining wall. The park or at least the steps should be up at that level instead of the steps coming down earlier and leaving the cul-de-sac just protruding out there like that.
May 18, 20187 yr The building is nice looking, but does feel a little too fancy. I'm sure after VEing and adding some band posters it wouldn't feel like the Shakespeare Company anymore. This is probably not Memi or GBBN's doing, but I hate the cul-de-sac that is up on a retaining wall. The park or at least the steps should be up at that level instead of the steps coming down earlier and leaving the cul-de-sac just protruding out there like that. Yeah that whole thing will have to be redesigned! The way it’s pictured now someone could drive right up and shine their headlights on the stage, or ramp their car onto the lawn. They should probably eliminate the cul de sac entirely, perhaps have Race culminate into an alley or street that cuts over to Elm. I wonder if it’s any master plan anywhere to keep a ROW open for a Race St. - Madison St. bridge? Also does this preclude residential or hotel on Lot 24 immediately to the north on the side facing the festival lawn due to noise concerns and force that to be office? www.cincinnatiideas.com
May 18, 20187 yr Actually I wonder if they have given any thought to putting the outdoor stage at the other end of the “Festival Park” (Lot 23)? It would have be following advantages: 1. could potentially fit more people by taking advantage of area behind stage as it’s drawn now and also what’s labeled “Transitional Park” (Lot 28) 2. Specatators would be more facing Roebling bridge as a backdrop 3. Music wouldn’t be pointed directly at the buildings of the Banks development (Lot 24), but out towards the park and river 4. Would be pointed towards Bengals tailgaters on stadium side and they could see what’s going on as they’re walking over from the stadium or from the stadium concourse itself (entertainment before Bengals games has been part of these proposals) 5. Maintain right of way for Race-Madison Bridge The question definitely should be asked & addresssed if MEMI is chosen. www.cincinnatiideas.com
May 23, 20187 yr https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/05/23/bathe-banks-concert-venue-cso-promo-wnks-concert-venue-cso-promo-west-fight-over-who-should-build/613312002/ ^the article shows site plans for both the CSO and PromoWest proposals. It says one advantage of the CSO proposal is that it takes up less space allowing for more "developable" space, but in both cases it seems like the venues would be surrounded by park space on the east/west. If anything, I think the PromoWest site plan is more conducive to allowing development on Lot 23. The CSO plan depends on Lot 23 being greenspace for outdoor concerts. Overall, I prefer the site plan of PromoWest, especially if the elevated green space at the corner of Elm/Mehring could be open to the public when there aren't any concerts.
May 23, 20187 yr Yeah it's laughable that CSO says it's saving the city/county money by taking up less space, when the space is never going to actually get developed. PromoWest is the clear better option to those under the age of 40 but we're not the ones who make the decision. The CSO's venue will still be a good addition to the Banks but I have much more faith in PromoWests ability to get quality acts. I also like that they property taxes but for some reason that's not important city and county elected officials.
June 1, 20187 yr Townhomes, 250 apartments (including micro units) proposed at the Banks By Tom Demeropolis – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier Only one team of developers responded to the request for proposals to develop a portion of the Banks. The joint venture team of Jeffrey R. Anderson Real Estate Inc., Pennrose Development, Greiwe Development Group and M+A Architects proposed a high-density project for Lot 24, the site just south of Radius at the Banks and General Electric’s Global Operations Center. The developers’ response includes plans for street-level retail, restaurant and entertainment uses, a pedestrian promenade facing the riverfront that would feature two-story rental townhomes and that floors above consisting of additional commercial or office space use with a mix of more than 250 micro and traditional sized apartments, as well as “true luxury for rent apartment homes.” https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/06/01/townhomes-250-apartments-including-micro-units.html
June 1, 20187 yr Well, there’s finally a proposal for Phase 3: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/06/01/townhomes-250-apartments-including-micro-units.html www.cincinnatiideas.com
June 1, 20187 yr I actually like this proposal. Looks like the townhouses after a modern contemporary exterior. The west apartment building has a nice proportional look, and the step down with the south building is a nice touch. Looks like the team put some real thought into the project. My questions will be how badly will the urban design review board get involved, and will anyone else submit prior to the June Meeting?
June 1, 20187 yr I think it’s garbage. They’re building a 280 car garage on top of an 8,000 car garage. We’re never getting anywhere with this type of thinking. (Here were my thoughts): https://cincinnatiideas.com/the-banks-phase-3/ www.cincinnatiideas.com
June 1, 20187 yr Until/unless the county agrees to let residents park in the underground garage, there's no way around that.
June 1, 20187 yr Until/unless the county agrees to let residents park in the underground garage, there's no way around that. Why on earth wouldn’t they? Wouldn’t that directly increase their revenues? Or does it have to do with the crazy Stadium lease? www.cincinnatiideas.com
June 1, 20187 yr I made this drawing a few months back. It was a proposal for lot 24 that was a little more unique than the current blocks. I learned I wasn't an architect but the idea was close to latest proposal. Great views of the park and bridge. Allows people in the Current to keep views of the park.
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