They need to do both

I did not realize that Lot 23 did extend all the way to Elm Street. Perhaps there is a way to do something creative at the corner of Elm and Mehring that is some type of public space that could be used for tailgating for the Bengals but would otherwise not look or function like a parking lot. I'd hope to see some development on Lot 25 and most of the norther part of Lot 27, however.

Whoever was in charge of numbering these lots must have been drinking something good: "1... <drink> ... 25... 27 ... 28 ... shit, I forgot 26... <drink> ok, I'll just put 26 over there."

I still think the planned Race St cul de sac is awkward as heck. Race Street should at least jog over to Elm St.

I still think the planned Race St cul de sac is awkward as heck. Race Street should at least jog over to Elm St.

Generally, I want complete street grids, but in this case I think Race St needs to stay at the elevation of Freedom Way to maintain the garage access.

I still think the planned Race St cul de sac is awkward as heck. Race Street should at least jog over to Elm St.

 

Continue southward to Covington.  A bridge in this location was fully funded around 1994 before it was diverted to build the cable-stayed bridge in Maysville. 

 

 

 

By the time all of those lots are filled in, will the Bengals still be around/still interested in using Paul Brown Stadium?

 

I've always wondered about this. I feel as if The Banks was supposed to be built out and filled in shortly after PBS was done and it's taken years, now well over a decade. Should The Bengals relocate to another city, what do you do with PBS/the space it sits on especially now that FC Cincinnati is building its own stadium.

 

I always thought it could be repurposed as an outdoor music venue with a demolished section getting an indoor music venue. But now...

I still think the planned Race St cul de sac is awkward as heck. Race Street should at least jog over to Elm St.

 

Continue southward to Covington.  A bridge in this location was fully funded around 1994 before it was diverted to build the cable-stayed bridge in Maysville. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the cul de sac would be a good spot for an air gondola/tram across the river. Heck of a view alongside the suspension bridge for the whole ride. Would connect NKY convention center to the Banks.

 

By the time all of those lots are filled in, will the Bengals still be around/still interested in using Paul Brown Stadium?

 

I've always wondered about this. I feel as if The Banks was supposed to be built out and filled in shortly after PBS was done and it's taken years, now well over a decade. Should The Bengals relocate to another city, what do you do with PBS/the space it sits on especially now that FC Cincinnati is building its own stadium.

 

I always thought it could be repurposed as an outdoor music venue with a demolished section getting an indoor music venue. But now...

 

It’s either an extortion or a disaster waiting to happen. We are in a ridiculously fragile position.

Would connect NKY convention center to the Banks.

 

 

The whole "problem" with a bridge is that it will improve access to said convention center and the NKY riverfront office buildings, which is why the Lindners and other Cincinnati interests have acted for decades to keep it from happening. 

 

 

Why would you need another bridge like 30 feet away from the existing one?  That seems like a complete waste of money. 

By the time all of those lots are filled in, will the Bengals still be around/still interested in using Paul Brown Stadium?

 

I've always wondered about this. I feel as if The Banks was supposed to be built out and filled in shortly after PBS was done and it's taken years, now well over a decade. Should The Bengals relocate to another city, what do you do with PBS/the space it sits on especially now that FC Cincinnati is building its own stadium.

 

I always thought it could be repurposed as an outdoor music venue with a demolished section getting an indoor music venue. But now...

 

I also worry about the long term future of PBS. Once the current lease is up, the county either needs to: (1.) enter into a new lease that requires the team (instead of taxpayers) to pay for any improvements; (2.) sell the stadium to the team at a fair market value (not for $1 as usually happens) and let the team be fully responsible for maintenance and improvements. Of course there is some possibility that the team would leave at that point, either for another city, or for a new stadium in West Chester or NKY. As a result we would probably have to demolish PBS but that would allow us to do one of the following: (1.) put a new arena there, allowing US Bank arena to be demolished and the site redeveloped; (2.) move the Convention Center there, allowing the existing one to be demolished, allowing the downtown street grid to be reconnected and multiple blocks developed; (3.) restore the street grid and develop the site as additional blocks of The Banks. The only scenario where I could see a post-Bengals PBS being saved is if soccer has grown so popular by the late 2020s that FCC is overflowing their current stadium and decides to move to PBS.

^ To your last point, there is no way FCC would end up moving into a 30-35 year old football stadium at that point in time. If anything they would figure out how to add a couple thousand seats to their stadium.

 

Also, the trend for stadiums is moving to smaller capacities, rather than larger. Even if soccer grows a lot here in the states, I don't think many MLS teams will be building 40-50,000 seat stadiums. I think 25-30,000 is about as high as any soccer specific stadiums will need to go, generally speaking.

Yeah, my FCC-to-PBS scenario (which I think is extremely unlikely to even happen in the first place) would involve a pretty massive top-to-bottom overhaul of PBS. Not moving into a 35 year old stadium untouched.

Why would you need another bridge like 30 feet away from the existing one?  That seems like a complete waste of money. 

 

Because the Suspension Bridge can't carry buses or trucks.  TANK has to go all the way to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge with every single bus.  Also, a streetcar/light rail line could cross a new bridge directly between the two downtowns. 

Why would you need another bridge like 30 feet away from the existing one?  That seems like a complete waste of money. 

 

Because the Suspension Bridge can't carry buses or trucks.  TANK has to go all the way to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge with every single bus.  Also, a streetcar/light rail line could cross a new bridge directly between the two downtowns. 

 

Extending the streetcar from its southern terminus thru The Banks and onto a new Race Street bridge connecting directly to Downtown Covington would be a game changer for how our region operates. Suddenly you unify the two downtown into one and enable all sorts of new transportation patterns. For that reason, it's not going to happen.

The Bengals have a 5-year option on their lease, which already has the best terms in the entire NFL.  So it is overwhelmingly likely that they will play in PBS for 35 years.  I think the game starts at that point -- where the team demands huge publicly funded upgrades to PBS, but only signs a 10-year lease. 

 

 

Let them move to Portland!

I don't understand why some are so eager to have the Bengals move...regardless if they move or not, I believe the bengals are an asset to this city. Tourists flock to support their away teams, and you get alot of national recognition in regards to the NFL. It's still a massively popular sport, and cities that host nfl teams are still considered elite cities.

 

NFL, and the NBA are still the 2 powerhouse sports leagues in this country. Even the most casual fan, living in the most rural town in the middle of no where will know about Cincinnati and the Bengals. I think that's a good thing....

 

I understand it's somewhat silly, but having cincy host 3 major league sports teams should been seen as an honor. The last thing you want is to be a Louisville, aka a, "minor league" sports town. All, "elite", first tier cities have sports teams in every category of sports (aside from Seattle, but they will get a NHL team soon). My hope is that, maybe, one day, our city can continue to expand and grow, and one day attract a developer willing to spend on a world class Arena downtown and hopefully attract a NHL or NBA team as well...

 

 

 

 

I'm not rooting for the Bengals to leave or anything like that. I'm just agreeing with Ronny's point that by the time The Banks are fully built out, the Bengals will likely be nearing the end of their lease and will say "renovate our stadium or we'll leave" to the county. And I really hope the county does not screw it up this time and give the Bengals the sun and the moon to stay. The construction of the new stadiums has severely crippled the county. The county has laid off about half of its employees, has let the majority of its other facilities fall into disrepair, and faces a budget crisis each year, because they're obligated to make improvements to PBS every year to keep it on par with other NFL stadiums across the country.

Also, for various reasons, I think urban soccer and baseball stadiums have worked out a lot better than urban football stadiums. Building both of the new stadiums on the riverfront was a good was to justify the shrinking of FWW and the construction of The Banks, so I don't really have any regrets about it. But assuming the Bengals want a new home somewhere in Greater Cincinnati, I think it would be fine to let them move to the suburbs and use that prime downtown land for something else.

When the lease is up, the Bengals need a corporate sponsor for the stadium. I think they're one of 6 or so NFL teams who do not sell the naming rights/branding at their stadium. Some of the more recent naming rights deals have price tags around $10,000,000 a year. That would fund a significant portion of any upgrades that may be needed.

The Bengals aren't going to leave Cincinnati.  The "small" Cincinnati market is actually much larger than it is strictly defined since Dayton + Kentucky and Columbus fans don't appear in that count.  8 million people watch a typical Bengals game on TV.  That's roughly how many watched the 2015 All-Star Game at Great American Ballpark.  The NFL is so huge that people don't realize how huge it is. 

 

One unlikely but bad possibility is that The Browns will leave Cleveland, incentivizing The Bengals to move to Columbus and become Ohio's team, especially if Columbus pulls well ahead of the other C's in population.  But I think that OSU will work to keep the NFL out of Columbus. 

 

 

Yeah I definitely don't want and am not rooting for the Bengals to leave, but I would rather them leave then give them as many tax dollars as we did on the last go round.

I'm guessing when their lease is up they'll get some money from the county but not nearly as much as and as friendly a lease as last time.  If they want they can look to other counties to see if they can get a better deal but I doubt anyone will offer it.  Hopefully Mike Brown dies before this issue comes up and either his daughter is more willing to spend the family money, or best case scenario they sell the team to someone else. 

Another thing to consider is if a owner wants to move a team they have to pay the NFL like $200M cash to do so. Will the Browns come up with that that kind of money just to move the team?

Another thing to consider is if a owner wants to move a team they have to pay the NFL like $200M cash to do so. Will the Browns come up with that that kind of money just to move the team?

 

In 2011 the Browns bought out their minority shareholder with cash.  How much?  Like $130 million.  So for literally 20 years Mike Brown had only paid himself $200k, his brother $200k, and the rest of the family in the front office relatively scant sums and poured all of the dividends from their shares into a fund which they used to buy out the last significant minority shareholder. 

 

So now with all of the shares except one, the Browns have no doubt pocketed close to $100 million since the 2011 buyout.  They will have *a ton* of cash on hand by the end of the lease -- literally hundreds of millions.  In theory they could get a new city or new investors to pay that $200 million relocation fee, but as you mention, it's unlikely that they're going to do that. 

 

Extending the streetcar from its southern terminus thru The Banks and onto a new Race Street bridge connecting directly to Downtown Covington would be a game changer for how our region operates. Suddenly you unify the two downtown into one and enable all sorts of new transportation patterns. For that reason, it's not going to happen.

 

Ideally new tracks would be laid on Race and Elm south of Central Parkway, and those tracks would then pair up at The Banks and cross the bridge.  It would also be possible to have the existing tracks travel over the bridge via Second St. or Freedom Way.  So there would be 2x as many trains north of Central Parkway and on the bridge. 

 

 

The NFL looks at markets, much like other industries. What a market is varies, but for the NFL it would include the TV DMA plus adjacent areas not close enough to another market of a league team. For the NFL, I assume that Lexington, Dayton and Louisville (unless they fall under Indy) are all part of the greater region that the NFL would consider Cincinnati. Not to mention a lot of non metro counties in southern Ohio and much of Kentucky.

Banks getting a giant Ferris wheel

 

 

The Banks will get a 150-foot-high “mobile observation wheel” to celebrate its 10th anniversary, the Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber announced Friday.

 

The wheel will open Aug. 31 and operate through Dec. 2. Called the SkyStar, it will be on Freedom Way across the street from the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center.

 

“SkyStar is America’s largest portable observation wheel and it will light up the sky with over 1 million colored LED lights,” said Todd Schneider of SkyStar. “This experience promises to provide unique views of downtown Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky, the Suspension Bridge and the Ohio River.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/08/24/banks-getting-a-giant-ferris-wheel.html

Is that Louisville in the picture?

Is that Louisville in the picture?

 

It is, the Ferris wheel is a traveling one and stopped there. It was also at Cincinnati's Coney Island for a little while.

Is The Banks doing that bad that this is "big news"?

My wife and I decided to check out a rooftop bar on saturday evening, and we'd never been to the top of the new AC hotel on the Banks. It was great weather and the great views as you'd expect. But we waited in a 35 minute queue to get into the elevator!

I would have just taken the stairs after 15 minutes, the building only has like 7 floors.  Great view there but the drinks are way overpriced like any rooftop bar. 

Is The Banks doing that bad that this is "big news"?

 

Personally I think it has to do with thumbing their nose at Newport on the Levee who can't get their own (albeit permanent) Ferris wheel off the ground.

I would have just taken the stairs after 15 minutes, the building only has like 7 floors.  Great view there but the drinks are way overpriced like any rooftop bar.

 

I don't think they let people bypass the line by taking the stairs.

I assume the wait was due to limited capacity on the rooftop... not the limited capacity of the elevators.

I assume the wait was due to limited capacity on the rooftop... not the limited capacity of the elevators.

That makes more sense. 

Austin startup bringing boutique hotel to the Banks

By Tom Demeropolis  – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

An Austin-based startup has partnered with Current at the Banks to open a boutique hotel in the mixed-use development.

The Guild, which blends short-term rental with a boutique hotel feel, has 50 suites at Current at the Banks, according to Austin Business Journal. Current at the Banks has 300 total apartments.

 

more...

^This doesn't seem like a good sign...

The banks have a lot of empty apartments, even ones that are rented out but the renters live out of town or use it rarely. This should help add foot traffic to the Banks and that's a good thing. 

50 minutes ago, jmblec2 said:

^This doesn't seem like a good sign...

On the one hand, it's a sign that the demand for apartments at Current isn't super high, but overall I actually think setting up that building to operate as extended-stay hotel is a good use for that building/location. Frankly, the design/architecture/pricing of the apartments at Currrent doesn't make it attractive to me, but as an extended-stay hotel, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to recommend it to somebody traveling to Cincinnati for business or vacation. 

 

And if I understand the model of The Guild, it's flexible to allow for adding/removing apartments to the "hotel lease" as demand shifts in the upcoming years. 

Edited October 22, 20186 yr by jwulsin

Those are good points. My concern is how does a new developer justify building another 150 to 300 apartments? 

That is a real concern, especially with it being cheaper (and with access to historic tax credits) to renovate existing buildings, like what's being proposed at the Central Trust building. The new construction of apartments at the Banks need to be of a much higher quality with better amenities to justify higher rents than a converted historic building. I do worry that we are hitting a ceiling of luxury priced apartments in downtown. 

Edited October 22, 20186 yr by ucgrady

On 10/22/2018 at 12:16 PM, ucgrady said:

That is a real concern, especially with it being cheaper (and with access to historic tax credits) to renovate existing buildings, like what's being proposed at the Central Trust building. The new construction of apartments at the Banks need to be of a much higher quality with better amenities to justify higher rents than a converted historic building. I do worry that we are hitting a ceiling of luxury priced apartments in downtown. 

 

I think there is a real demand to do micro (like at 8th and Main) for new construction than luxury at this point anyway.

 

The problem with Cincinnati with luxury downtown is that we do not have enough in migration to our City/MSA to justify more of this type of construction. If we can do the Central Trust more affordable, that is a win. We need to keep building residential downtown in general.

If the luxury market is saturated, that makes lower-tier markets more attractive.  That's part of the reason middle and even low-income housing could be built new in the past.  Without zoning constraints creating scarcity across the board, builders could focus on their own particular strengths and niches, which could be apartments, tenements, row houses, etc., rather than chasing the luxury market. 

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:41 AM, jmblec2 said:

Those are good points. My concern is how does a new developer justify building another 150 to 300 apartments? 

They need to be able to make a solid return on their investment and have significant buyers who would be willing to buy the product in 3-5 years when the developer is looking to cash out. The one challenge with Cincinnati is that it does not attract the institutional investor that other peer cities do right now. This slows down development because there are less players in the market to buy the asset when the developer looks to cash out.

Sounds like we finally have some movement on the proposed music venue.

 

 

Wonder where these 2,470 surface parking spaces the county is going to provide for tailgating will be.