Maybe it could tour different neighborhoods. Not sure it would do good everywhere, but imagine it at the top of any of the former inclines.

It was open for business on Christmas. 

Wouldn’t mind it staying. What would this mean for the skywheel though? I’ve been having my doubts lately about it even actually happening. 

Quote

Metro Baltimore might be nominally wealthier than Cincinanti by virtue of being in the Washington metroplex, but the city itself is probably on equal footing with Cincinnati, if not actually a bit shabbier. West Baltimore is... rough, to say the least, and even most of downtown is a bit grubby. But that's more of an East Coast thing than specifically a Baltimore thing. It's really a lot like St. Louis, where you have some really solid neighborhoods (Fells, Mt Vernon, Charles Village) that butt up directly to some not-so-friendly places. 

 

I spent quite of bit of time in Baltimore and D.C. this summer and have lots of family in each. To me, Baltimore has areas quite reminiscent of Cincinnati, and from an outside perspective, I always thought of them as pretty similar, but that view changed a bit this time around. Talking to an Uber driver our first night there, I got some pretty unique opinions about Baltimore, as she had also spent time in Florida, Louisiana, Northern Ohio and West Virginia. She said the city was the most segregated that she had been to, or lived in. She actually noted the "butt up" of neighborhoods, pointing out where a somewhat affluent area would butt up directly against a rougher area as we drove along. She spoke about the schools in each area and how different two neighborhoods can be, although right up against one another. I also found it interesting that she noted a strong southern influence in the city. I hadn't really taken any notice of this until she mentioned it. It was an awesome ride, well worth what I paid. 

 

The next day, we took the city bus from Penn Station to Fells Point, passing probably two solid miles of abandoned row houses, maybe the edge of what would be considered East Baltimore, before you hit Johns Hopkins. The blight of this area in terms of other cities I have been to is only rivaled, and perhaps surpassed by West Baltimore, East St. Louis or areas around Detroit. Dense desolation is really the only way I can describe it. Lots of buildings with little open space, but few inhabitants. 

 

Downtown Baltimore, where we stayed was really where the difference became clear. The downtown area is just bigger and way shabbier than what I see every day in Cincinnati. There is a much more pronounced big-city feel to me with the light rail and also MARC Trains running from D.C. to Baltimore a few times a day and more visible tourists. Harbor East definitely looks like what the Banks could be/could've been, and Federal Hill reminded me of areas around Mt. Adams and Eden Park. 

 

I dunno, just some rambling thoughts. Baltimore is a fascinating city, especially given its contrast to D.C. when going back and forth between them. 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 20196 yr by NorthsiderWithaDog

^Yeah, I've not spent a ton of time in Baltimore, but it definitely feels considerably larger than Cincinnati, I think. It also seems way rougher around the edges and less corporate in the downtown area at least. I know everyone talks about it in connection to DC, but it really feels like a Philly/DC hybrid. Maybe the DC connection was stronger when DC was less polished and gentrified, though.

 

That said, this paragraph could easily be describing Cincinnati: 

 

2 hours ago, NorthsiderWithaDog said:

The city was the most segregated that she had been to, or lived in. She actually noted the "butt up" of neighborhoods, pointing out where a somewhat affluent area would butt up directly against a rougher area as we drove along. She spoke about the schools in each area and how different two neighborhoods can be, although right up against one another. I also found it interesting that she noted a strong southern influence in the city.

 

15 hours ago, edale said:

^Yeah, I've not spent a ton of time in Baltimore, but it definitely feels considerably larger than Cincinnati, I think. It also seems way rougher around the edges and less corporate in the downtown area at least. I know everyone talks about it in connection to DC, but it really feels like a Philly/DC hybrid. Maybe the DC connection was stronger when DC was less polished and gentrified, though.

 

That said, this paragraph could easily be describing Cincinnati: 

 

 

 

This is a pretty apt description. It really is a fascinating city. I guess I kind of misrepresented my view above. There are definitely still areas of Baltimore that remind me of Cincinnati, especially the running together of neighborhoods. As I was riding to the Central Parkway YMCA last night I was thinking about it. Where the West End and OTR butt up against central as you are almost downtown, that area is quite akin to areas in Baltimore skirting the downtown area heading toward Charles Village. 

 

My family all lives in the outer suburbs of Baltimore, so my exposure had been limited to those areas into the Inner Harbor and Camden Yards and back prior to this trip. I got much more of a feel for the city. 

On 1/4/2019 at 8:21 AM, NorthsiderWithaDog said:

 

This is a pretty apt description. It really is a fascinating city. I guess I kind of misrepresented my view above. There are definitely still areas of Baltimore that remind me of Cincinnati, especially the running together of neighborhoods. As I was riding to the Central Parkway YMCA last night I was thinking about it. Where the West End and OTR butt up against central as you are almost downtown, that area is quite akin to areas in Baltimore skirting the downtown area heading toward Charles Village. 

 

My family all lives in the outer suburbs of Baltimore, so my exposure had been limited to those areas into the Inner Harbor and Camden Yards and back prior to this trip. I got much more of a feel for the city. 

 

 

Cincinnati shares with Baltimore its combo of East Coast and Southern, they just are expressed a bit differently with Baltimore having a bit more of a hard edged east coast personality to it but tempered by people calling you hon.   Cincy also has this large Appalachian influence that makes it pretty distinct from Baltimore.  I'm also really fascinated by Baltimore as well, kind of in the same way I'm fascinated by Cincy and St Louis.

Edited January 8, 20196 yr by neilworms

20 minutes ago, neilworms said:

 

 

Cincinnati shares with Baltimore its combo of East Coast and Southern, they just are expressed a bit differently with Baltimore having a bit more of a hard edged east coast personality to it but tempered by people calling you hon.   Cincy also has this large Appalachian influence that makes it pretty distinct from Baltimore.  I'm also really fascinated by Baltimore as well, kind of in the same way I'm fascinated by Cincy and St Louis.

 

Having spent a lot of time in both I would posit that the biggest difference between the two is topography. Cincinnati's topography is limiting. You have a very dense neighborhood adjacent to downtown in Mt. Adams but it does not feel like a part of the city, but rather very removed from it. Uptown feels like it is on the other side of the world in relation to downtown. Compare that to neighborhoods near downtown Baltimore which are very much interconnected with downtown and its other surrounding neighborhoods.

Baltimore is only slightly larger than Cincinnati (81 sq. miles vs. 78 sq. miles) but has double the population. It is very dense because there is lots of flat land near downtown to build on. If Cincinnati had the same population as Baltimore it would feel twice as dense as Baltimore because the population would have to be more clustered on what flat land is available. 

I personally think Cincinnati's topography gets overplayed when discussing "uphill" density. The Mill Creek and Ohio River valleys have steep, hilly terrain, but a vast majority of the east side (almost all of the Madison and Montgomery corridors) and a good chunk of the Price Hill area is plenty flat for a much denser vernacular than what was developed. Hyde Park north of Observatory could easily have been developed more in the manner of CUF, but instead it's full of roomy lots. Same goes for Corryville and Walnut Hills. The divide in density almost certainly has more to do with income levels, the time period of "uphill" construction, and the disconnect from the urban basin than it does with any major topographical challenges.

2 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I personally think Cincinnati's topography gets overplayed when discussing "uphill" density. The Mill Creek and Ohio River valleys have steep, hilly terrain, but a vast majority of the east side (almost all of the Madison and Montgomery corridors) and a good chunk of the Price Hill area is plenty flat for a much denser vernacular than what was developed. Hyde Park north of Observatory could easily have been developed more in the manner of CUF, but instead it's full of roomy lots. Same goes for Corryville and Walnut Hills. The divide in density almost certainly has more to do with income levels, the time period of "uphill" construction, and the disconnect from the urban basin than it does with any major topographical challenges.

 

Ok, but isn't much of this disconnect from the basin stem from geographical separation/isolation? Hyde Park, while in the city limits, is really more of a streetcar suburban type of neighborhood, so it wouldn't make sense for it to have been developed like CUF or any of the more classically urban neighborhoods. Really the 'core' of Cincinnati is the basin + Camp Washington and Northside + Mt. Adams and Mt. Auburn (and the NKY river cities, I would argue). The vernacular in those neighborhoods is pretty dense, small footprint lots, fine grained development. Outside of these areas, development patterns are much more in line with other cities in Ohio and the eastern Midwest. 4 family small apartment buildings, detached homes with sizable yards and setbacks, some larger, more intense apartment buildings (like those found on Madison in Hyde Park and off Ludlow in Clifton). It's only the true core that somewhat borrows from East Coast patterns, I think.

I'm on the same page as you with respect to development, I was just trying to argue that it could be denser, in theory. I don't necessarily think Cincinnati would have become twice as dense as Baltimore because if that early turn of the century pressure was there, that OTR-level of development, or at least CUF-level, would have spread out further. But instead it got snapped up pretty early on (the 1830s in some cases) by rich people to build their mansions above the smog. 

23 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I'm on the same page as you with respect to development, I was just trying to argue that it could be denser, in theory. I don't necessarily think Cincinnati would have become twice as dense as Baltimore because if that early turn of the century pressure was there, that OTR-level of development, or at least CUF-level, would have spread out further. But instead it got snapped up pretty early on (the 1830s in some cases) by rich people to build their mansions above the smog. 

 

 

Cincinnati was denser. Then I-75 happened and much of the West End was destroyed (see tragic historic photos). Can we imagine Cincinnati if Queensgate did not exist? It'd probably be more like Baltimore, believe it or not. I fear the West End likely would have fallen into disrepair like OTR and the remaining West End did, and Cincinnati may have had its own version of West Baltimore.

 

Baltimore like Cincinnati? Nah, I have never thought that and I lived in Maryland for nine years (and will forever wish I still did). I always thought it was the little brother of Philadelphia, and I have never viewed Baltimore as a southern city the way I view Cincinnati (lovingly refer to Cincinnati as the most southern city of the North). Perhaps we should have a philosophical discussion of what city Cincinnati is like in City Discussion?

 

To bring this back on topic.  Skystar forever staying in Cincinnati would certainly be a blow to Newport. However, it would be one more attraction at the Banks, and if the Reds and Bengals are going to continue to be cellar dwellers then Cincinnati needs more carrots to draw people the Banks! Perhaps Smale Park could be finished?

 

 

Edited January 9, 20196 yr by TraderJake

23 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I'm on the same page as you with respect to development, I was just trying to argue that it could be denser, in theory. I don't necessarily think Cincinnati would have become twice as dense as Baltimore because if that early turn of the century pressure was there, that OTR-level of development, or at least CUF-level, would have spread out further. But instead it got snapped up pretty early on (the 1830s in some cases) by rich people to build their mansions above the smog. 

 

Sure it could be denser but the topography, as mentioned, is why it isn't. It affected the development patterns from the very beginning, and dense urban development spilled across the river because it was easier than going up the hill. 

 

Also, it was already pointed out, but Cincinnati did used to be much denser.  You mentioned Walnut Hills, but if you look back at old maps the western portion of Walnut Hills was just as dense as OTR. Corryville was also a lot denser. 

 

And I do see the parallels between Bmore and Cincy but they certainly have big differences, aside even from the topography. Pittsburgh, to me, feels like the missing link in the Bmore to Cincy evolutionary chain. I think of it as a progression.

 

Philly --> Bmore --> Pittsburgh --> Cincinnati --> St. Louis

 

Going from bigger/denser/more east coast to more sprawling/midwestern/southern.

29 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Philly --> Bmore --> Pittsburgh --> Cincinnati --> St. Louis

 

 

I have always said Cincinnati is a mix of Pittsburgh and Louisville. 

Edited January 9, 20196 yr by TraderJake

I see Pittsburgh mixed with Richmond (VA) more than Louisville, but it's not far off.

29 minutes ago, TraderJake said:

I have always said Cincinnati is a mix of Pittsburgh and Louisville. 

 

I would be comfortable sticking Louisville in my progression between Cincinnati and St. Louis. You could also tack NYC on the front. So it goes:

 

NYC --> Philly --> Bmore --> Pittsburgh --> Cincinnati --> Louisville --> St. Louis

 

So Philly is a mixe of NYC and Bmore. Bmore is a mix of Philly and PGH. PGH is a mix of Bmore and Cincy. And so on. 

 

This is a fun game haha.

1 hour ago, TraderJake said:

To bring this back on topic.  Skystar forever staying in Cincinnati would certainly be a blow to Newport. However, it would be one more attraction at the Banks, and if the Reds and Bengals are going to continue to be cellar dwellers then Cincinnati needs more carrots to draw people the Banks! Perhaps Smale Park could be finished?

 

 

 

If it stays, a permanent base would have to be designed... I love seeing a Ferris Wheel in the center of downtown on axis with Roebling. I do not love a shipping container and temporary fencing. I would want a finish similar to that of the building the carousel is in for accessory structures and the required fencing.

But aren't shipping containers "in" these days?

That fad will hopefully die soon.

I will say the banks has become a legit entertainment destination for 21 plus year olds.

 

Galla Park, Tin Roof, the AC Rooftop, all the other bars and restaurants plus the ferris wheel has definitely impacted it's popularity during the weekends.

 

During the summer the street is as flooded as Main St OTR.

 

Still room for more establishments for sure, but the banks has definitely become a party destination for many people in the tri state.

The banks has been a hugely popular bar destination for multiple years now.  If they can get the music venue figured out (what happened to all the urgency with that?), add that proposed residential/retail across from GE then get another hotel and hopefully some more office users down there the entire area will seem full 24/7.  

24 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The banks has been a hugely popular bar destination for multiple years now.  If they can get the music venue figured out (what happened to all the urgency with that?), add that proposed residential/retail across from GE then get another hotel and hopefully some more office users down there the entire area will seem full 24/7.  

 

https://www.wlwt.com/article/still-no-real-construction-date-for-riverfront-music-venue/25837560

 

I am not convinced that the music venue will happen, or that MEMI has any desire to actually build the music venue. The only reason it was awarded to MEMI was to prevent PromoWest from building a venue in Cincinnati. Because we couldn't allow an out-of-town company to build a music venue here that would compete with our locally-owned venues!

What is the design of this going to look like? Is the outdoor stage going to be pointed right at the front doors and windows of the mixed use development to be built on Lot 24? What about the awkward Race St. cul-de-sac? Time to take a fresh look at this area instead of relying on a somewhat boring and vague plan from 20 plus years ago

Edited January 11, 20196 yr by thebillshark

38 minutes ago, taestell said:

I am not convinced that the music venue will happen, or that MEMI has any desire to actually build the music venue. The only reason it was awarded to MEMI was to prevent PromoWest from building a venue in Cincinnati. Because we couldn't allow an out-of-town company to build a music venue here that would compete with our locally-owned venues!

I think it will happen, but like the article says they still have to figure out who pays for the parking garage underneath and the county still has to purchase Hilltop.  I don't think they will start on the music venue until both of those are completed.  The selection process for this music venue was a complete joke though that was handed to MEMI.  

Meanwhile, there is no consideration for advancing the 3rd phase block with mixed-use. That Pennrose/Greiwe proposal apparently has gone nowhere.

City sets terms for its role in the next phase of the Banks

 

The city of Cincinnati laid out conditions for its participation in the next phase of the Banks riverfront development – mainly that the county initially pay the total cost of the parking garages that need to be built to lift a potential music venue and park out of the floodplain.

 

City Manager Patrick Duhaney described those terms in a Jan. 4 memo obtained by the Business Courier.

 

“The city is not able to contribute any new funds directly to the next phase of the Banks,” Duhaney’s letter said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/01/14/city-sets-terms-for-its-role-in-the-next-phase-of.html

 

^Regarding Lot 24, that article makes it sound like the City wants "high density", but only if it's purely office... since they've not moved forward with the June 2018 mixed-use proposal (including 2 floors of office space) from Greiwe, Pennrose, JR Anderson, and M+A. 

Here's what you can expect when the Banks' newest attraction opens

 

The Banks' newest attraction will offer an immersive take on the escape room genre when it opens at the end of this week.

 

The Escape Game will open at the Banks between Taste of Belgium and Pies and Pints on Jan. 25. Manager Christian Rodriguez told me that the attraction's attention to detail sets it apart from other escape rooms.

 

"Typically you'll get your mission beforehand and you have 50 minutes to escape. Us, we have a story that opens up halfway through," he said. "Maybe someone betrays you, or maybe you did something that will cause you to lose if you don't completely change the way you play."

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/01/22/heres-what-you-can-expect-when-the-banks-newest.html

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/01/28/planet-fitness-smoothie-king-coming-banks/2699341002/

 

I actually think this is a good idea. Downtown needed a well known cheaper gym. And it takes up a spot that in my opinion has always struggled to keep restaurants and clubs in it. People who live in OTR can take the streetcar down since there is a stop right in front (that’s if they don’t decide to run down there).

7 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/01/28/planet-fitness-smoothie-king-coming-banks/2699341002/

 

I actually think this is a good idea. Downtown needed a well known cheaper gym. And it takes up a spot that in my opinion has always struggled to keep restaurants and clubs in it. People who live in OTR can take the streetcar down since there is a stop right in front (that’s if they don’t decide to run down there).

Makes it more of a neighborhood now providing amenities for local residents and business folks. Plus this space was always going to struggle unless they broke it up into a couple smaller spaces along the road. Only way I dont see this exceeding is if people just dont attend this location and they struggle to build a membership base. 

Pretty much all of the new apartments downtown have their own gym so I'm not sure if many of the people living at the banks will use this.  The location is very close to three of the biggest office buildings downtown though (Great American, Atrium and Scripps) so they'd be smart to target those workers.  

3 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Pretty much all of the new apartments downtown have their own gym so I'm not sure if many of the people living at the banks will use this.  The location is very close to three of the biggest office buildings downtown though (Great American, Atrium and Scripps) so they'd be smart to target those workers.  

A lot of them do yes, but usually those gyms are not that large and don’t have the equipment that larger gyms do.

That's good news. IIRC, that space was intended to be a grocery store in the master plan for The Banks. So after two attempts at being a bar/entertainment destination it's going back to something that will be more useful to neighborhood residents and office workers.

8 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

A lot of them do yes, but usually those gyms are not that large and don’t have the equipment that larger gyms do.

 

Bingo. I have a gym in my apartment building downtown but it is tiny and does not have many free weights. I'd be willing to give this  location a try. I have been considering a membership at LA Fitness is Bellevue anyway but it is just not that convenient for me. 

Yeah a grocery would have been by far the best use of that large space.  But I'm sure Kroger told the city not to put one there when they were still debating opening their own downtown store.  

When I lived in OTR I used to ride my bike to the LA Fitness in Newport/Bellevue  before we joined the Central Parkway Y, so this definitly would have been have an option I would have considered. 

It's great that this gym is right on the streetcar line, too. That puts it much more in reach for people who live in the northern part of downtown and OTR.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

That's good news. IIRC, that space was intended to be a grocery store in the master plan for The Banks. So after two attempts at being a bar/entertainment destination it's going back to something that will be more useful to neighborhood residents and office workers.

 

There's no reason why it can't be both at the end of the day. 

 

The banks is still as jam packed at night as main st otr for the bars and clubs they have at the banks. 

 

 In all honesty, the banks can still use a few more bar concepts, dining options....

 

That said, this is great news. I've always complained in the past few years about how downtown lacks basic amenities that big cities have (like a full service grocery store, a full service chain gym)...It's remarkable the progress this city is making in such a short time. If you are 20 - something, recent college grad, new additions like this only persuades you even more to live downtown. It's about amenities. To gain population downtown, we need a grocery store, we need a full service quality gym, etc...This is a great, great step in the right direction for both the banks and downtown as a whole. 

Planet Fitness is the perfect fit for that spot. It is not on the main path, does not require a lot of foot traffic to generate business, has parking built in underneath and is a lower overhead (equipment heavy) business that has a low variable operating costs. Whether it makes it or not, it is a business that can ride out a 3 or 5 year lease successfully at that location. Another bar or restaurant will fail there. Plus, it is going to get a ton of free visibility for other locations in the chain because everyone is walking by that sign going to the Reds game.

2 hours ago, taestell said:

That's good news. IIRC, that space was intended to be a grocery store in the master plan for The Banks. So after two attempts at being a bar/entertainment destination it's going back to something that will be more useful to neighborhood residents and office workers.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I recall a somewhat recent proposal for a grocery store in the block near 3rd/Race as part of the Radius apartment building. 

26 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I recall a somewhat recent proposal for a grocery store in the block near 3rd/Race as part of the Radius apartment building. 

You’re probably thinking of a proposal that’s out there for the City Club 309 Vine apartments just north of Third Street. 

52 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

You’re probably thinking of a proposal that’s out there for the City Club 309 Vine apartments just north of Third Street. 

 

They have a sign up that it is opening in the spring, if I remember correctly. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/02/11/exclusive-cincinnati-dj-opening-modern-tropical.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

Kiss 107 DJ, owner of Engergy Night Club, is opening a new club with, "The Fish Bowl" in the former WG + Kitchen Bar Space.

 

Lets be honest, the Banks is killing it at the moment. Planet Fitness, the bars, the clubs, the restaurants, the beautiful smale park, the gorgeous ferris wheel, the great escape game (Which offers wonderful team building btw)...the banks just offers great entertainment value. 

I feel like 1,400 square feet is somewhat small for a bar but glad to see any new developments open at the banks.  Now the city and county just get the music venue figured out so that can start construction.  

7 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

I feel like 1,400 square feet is somewhat small for a bar but glad to see any new developments open at the banks.  Now the city and county just get the music venue figured out so that can start construction.  

Ah perfect size for the Banks, especially when the majority of your week your dead down there. Why have a huge space and a ton of overhead that only your weekend numbers can keep afloat. This will be a nice addition next to the Tervis store, which i am surprised is still in business at the banks. 

I thought that space is where Burger Fi currently is?

54 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

I thought that space is where Burger Fi currently is?

No its going where Tiger Dumplings was suppose to go between Tervis and Jefferson Social. Burger Fi isnt going anywhere. 

58 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

No its going where Tiger Dumplings was suppose to go between Tervis and Jefferson Social. Burger Fi isnt going anywhere. 

 

That makes more sense. I was confused when I saw "former WG space"

EXCLUSIVE: GE Aviation moving ‘several hundred jobs’ to the Banks 

By Tom Demeropolis  – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

GE Aviation, the General Electric Co. subsidiary that provides jet engines, components and integrated systems for commercial and military aircraft, is planning to move hundreds of employees to downtown Cincinnati.

 

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