^ I'll tell you something, when I had my game store in the city I could. not. sell. anything. normal. The customers only wanted my weirdest, most unusual stuff. People would try to sell us Xbox games and I'd have to turn them away since those were way too normal. But games that would rot for years at my mall stores like obscure Sega Genesis games would sell immediately. Since most things the public tries to sell use are "normal" we had to get out of the city.

 

You wonder why you can't get toilet paper in the city except for bodega size that lasts only 2 shits -- cause you buy it all on Amazon but flip out when you see a Tiki head in person and whip out the credit card immediately... well, you're going to get supplied with a bunch of Tiki heads and no toilet paper.

51 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

You wonder why you can't get toilet paper in the city except for bodega size that lasts only 2 shits -- cause you buy it all on Amazon but flip out when you see a Tiki head in person and whip out the credit card immediately... well, you're going to get supplied with a bunch of Tiki heads and no toilet paper.

 

There are lots of places to buy toilet paper in just about every city I've ever been to. 

Ok, picking toilet paper was a bit of an exaggeration.

As much as I can't go most major chains, I don't think a Starbucks or Dunkin type coffee place would hurt the Banks.

On 7/10/2019 at 9:36 AM, savadams13 said:

 

This area is great, work typically puts me in the Hilton at Penn Landing, right next to this area, and its always busy except in the winter. The skystar wheel area and the two splash pads at the entry to the bridge could really make an excellent active zone. Only issue is the amount of speeding cars through this area coming off the bridge. 

Seems like the time for a pedestrian only Roebling is coming. 

16 hours ago, snakebite said:

As much as I can't go most major chains, I don't think a Starbucks or Dunkin type coffee place would hurt the Banks.

I can't remember who said it but it was said in the past the the banks passed on a starbucks because they felt it would take money away from Taste of Belgium.  The people who are in charge of the banks are complete idiots.  

Just now, Cincy513 said:

I can't remember who said it but it was said in the past the the banks passed on a starbucks because they felt it would take money away from Taste of Belgium.  The people who are in charge of the banks are complete idiots.  

 

On the flip side there is a Starbucks already at 4th st which is less than a 3-5 min walk from the banks.

 

Regardless, I would much prefer a Starbucks Reserve that spans 2 stories and features all of the extra features these concept stores have. 

 

Cincy deserves more. If we want the Asian tourists to start flocking to Cincy than we need an H & M, Apple Store, Rolex Store/Ultra Luxery Brand retail, Starbucks Reserve and an urban fitted McDonalds. 

 

It's not a very hard concept to figure out, but I'm guessing these retail Giants aren't exactly happy with where Cincy is at regardless...

Well, no one is really "in charge" right now. They fired the master developer two years ago and never replaced them.

10 minutes ago, taestell said:

Well, no one is really "in charge" right now. They fired the master developer two years ago and never replaced them.

The same people have been in charge the entire time, the group of old people on the banks steering committee.  They don't get to make actual decisions, those are made by the county and city, but their recommendations are always followed.  The fact they think a master developer is even needed is just another example of how out of touch this committee of rich old people truly are.  

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by Cincy513

I think if the steering committee brought in a master developer with a particular vision, that would be ideal. When Carter was in charge they wanted to make it into a true mixed use urban neighborhood, but the problem is that it never had enough full time residents and M-F 9-5 office workers so the retail spaces remained full of sports bars and entertainment venues. Now that we are doubling down on making it an entertainment destination with the addition of SkyStar, a music venue, and a new permanent tailgating lot ?, maybe they need a new master developer who wants to go all-in on that vision. Bring in a Shake Shack, a Giordano's, a Rainforest Cafe, etc. (I would suggest a Primanto Bros. too but I think Cincinnatians would throw a hissy fit, much like they did when they saw that our streetcar was "Steelers yellow.")

I think a Starbucks would work well at the Banks even though there is one on Fourth. My wife and I have done so many times just parked at Friendship Park and walked to the Banks, and it would be awesome if they had just a simple coffee shop like a Starbucks, not wanting to walk up to Fourth Street to get it.

 

If the steering committee had any vision, they should pressure Taste of Belgium to have a pop up window for coffee and if they don't want to do it allow Starbucks or Dunkin in one of the open retail spots. (This is all assuming Starbucks would want to open there of course!)

37 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The same people have been in charge the entire time, the group of old people on the banks steering committee.  They don't get to make actual decisions, those are made by the county and city, but their recommendations are always followed.  The fact they think a master developer is even needed is just another example of how out of touch this committee of rich old people truly are.  

It seems like they won't even consider the actual Phase III development until the music venue is underway. So we are building more entertainment venues for tourists and no residences and office space.. you know, things that would provide real long-lasting tax base as opposed to disposable income that would disappear in an economic downturn.

 

At this rate, we'll have a rollercoaster, a steeplechase and parachute drop (a la Coney Island in Brooklyn, NY) before we get a real development at the Banks.

Yeah I just don't know why it's so hard for them to build more apartments on the ready to develop block across from GE.  Another hotel would be a no brainer with the city needing more hotels right now.  Instead they meet once or twice a year to talk about this music venue that may or may not even end up happening.  

18 minutes ago, JYP said:

At this rate, we'll have a rollercoaster, a steeplechase and parachute drop (a la Coney Island in Brooklyn, NY) before we get a real development at the Banks.

 

I'll be pleased ?

26 minutes ago, JYP said:

It seems like they won't even consider the actual Phase III development until the music venue is underway. So we are building more entertainment venues for tourists and no residences and office space.. you know, things that would provide real long-lasting tax base as opposed to disposable income that would disappear in an economic downturn.

 

At this rate, we'll have a rollercoaster, a steeplechase and parachute drop (a la Coney Island in Brooklyn, NY) before we get a real development at the Banks.

 

The harsh reality is that Cincinnati is playing catch up after years of neglect. We need now apartments, we need more office space, but we also need more entertainment options. It's all a delicate balance.....

 

Look at the ferris wheel... Such a simple thing but brings such a diverse crowd of families and children to the banks.

We really don't need more office space, it's why the lot behind Ruth's Chris has sat empty for 10 years now.  Maybe in another 10 years when more old office buildings are converted to residential or hotels there will actually be some demand.  But with more and more companies letting employees work from home I don't see the demand for office space increasing anytime soon.  

When the Boomers are retired there's a good chance that offices will move back Downtown from outside 275 where they are now.

2 hours ago, troeros said:

The harsh reality is that Cincinnati is playing catch up after years of neglect. We need now apartments, we need more office space, but we also need more entertainment options. It's all a delicate balance.....

It is a delicate balance and, at present, nearly all of the effort is going into making downtown an entertainment destination and virtually none is going into making it a more livable place. All of the city's attention is on stadiums and music venues. 3CDC has shifted their focus away from residential and over to office space, parking garages, and hotels. While our peer cities are busy building protected bike lanes, traffic calming projects, and improving transit, Cincinnati's leadership has been dragging their feet and refuses to make any changes that would make the urban core a safer place for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders because they fear it might inconvenience suburbanites driving downtown to visit the entertainment venues. They continue to treat the streetcar as a tourist attraction rather than making it work better so more people can depend on it as their primary form of transit and more housing and office space will develop along the route. On top of that, the city has made a habit of balancing its budget by increasing parking meter rates in OTR (and extending hours), so while OTR residents can enjoy the perk of having parking permits, whenever their friends visit for a few hours, they have to spend $5 to park in a garage or at a meter. That's why many people have decided that is makes more sense to live in a nearby neighborhood where they are still a 10 minute drive from downtown but don't have to deal with the hassles of living downtown.

2 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

We really don't need more office space, it's why the lot behind Ruth's Chris has sat empty for 10 years now.  Maybe in another 10 years when more old office buildings are converted to residential or hotels there will actually be some demand.  But with more and more companies letting employees work from home I don't see the demand for office space increasing anytime soon.  

The main reason this has sat vacant is because the floor plate is on the smaller side for new Class A tenants these days. Smaller floor plates work in other parts of town, but this being the central business district, most tenants that want to go here want bigger floor plates. 

9 minutes ago, taestell said:

It is a delicate balance and, at present, nearly all of the effort is going into making downtown an entertainment destination and virtually none is going into making it a more livable place. All of the city's attention is on stadiums and music venues. 3CDC has shifted their focus away from residential and over to office space, parking garages, and hotels. While our peer cities are busy building protected bike lanes, traffic calming projects, and improving transit, Cincinnati's leadership has been dragging their feet and refuses to make any changes that would make the urban core a safer place for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders because they fear it might inconvenience suburbanites driving downtown to visit the entertainment venues. They continue to treat the streetcar as a tourist attraction rather than making it work better so more housing and office space will develop along the route and more people can depend on it as their primary form of transit. On top of that, the city has made a habit of balancing its budget by increasing parking meter rates in OTR, so while OTR residents can enjoy the perk of having parking permits, whenever their friends visit for a few hours, they have to spend $5 to park in a garage or at a meter. That's why many people have decided that is makes more sense to live in a nearby neighborhood where they are still a 10 minute drive from downtown but don't have to deal with the hassles of living downtown.

For the suburbanites to play, the urbanites must pay!

4 minutes ago, taestell said:

It is a delicate balance and, at present, nearly all of the effort is going into making downtown an entertainment destination and virtually none is going into making it a more livable place. All of the city's attention is on stadiums and music venues. 3CDC has shifted their focus away from residential and over to office space, parking garages, and hotels. While our peer cities are busy building protected bike lanes, traffic calming projects, and improving transit, Cincinnati's leadership has been dragging their feet and refuses to make any changes that would make the urban core a safer place for pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders because they fear it might inconvenience suburbanites driving downtown to visit the entertainment venues. They continue to treat the streetcar as a tourist attraction rather than making it work better so more housing and office space will develop along the route and more people can depend on it as their primary form of transit. On top of that, the city has made a habit of balancing its budget by increasing parking meter rates in OTR, so while OTR residents can enjoy the perk of having parking permits, whenever their friends visit for a few hours, they have to spend $5 to park in a garage or at a meter. That's why many people have decided that is makes more sense to live in a nearby neighborhood where they are still a 10 minute drive from downtown but don't have to deal with the hassles of living downtown.

 

1. I'm not sure where the evidence for the statement of 3cdc focusing less on residential and more on office/hotels, etc?

 

Last I checked on the 3cdc current projects:

 

4th and Race - Residential

Court and Walnut - Residential

Court St Condos - Residential

The Columbia - Residential

 

Non Residential Current 3cdc Projects:

 

Behlen

Meiners

Elm Industries

 

 

Its almost 50/50 residential to office ratio which how it should be really...

 

 

2. I'm a huge street car supporter but it's current route really doesn't serve anything. It's sort of this in awkward phase where it doesn't really serve a purpose for residents, especially with the arrival of bird and lime scooters, electric red bikes, walking....

 

It needs to be connected to CVG/Uptown. Until that happens, it really doesn't serve a purpose as a viable public transportation device aside from cold winter days and rainy spring months....or for bar hopping suburban tourists which is exactly a great way to save money than rather using an Uber....

 

It needs more routes. Plain and simple. 

 

3. I'm sure parking meters have gone up, but there is cheap/free parking in alot of downtown locations still. 

 

For instance the free court street parking...

 

17 minutes ago, troeros said:

4th and Race - Residential

Court and Walnut - Residential

Court St Condos - Residential

The Columbia - Residential

 

The residential portion of 4th and Race is being developed by Flaherty & Collins, an Indiana-based developer. 3CDC's role in this project is to operate the garage and retail spaces.

 

3CDC will run the parking garage at Court & Walnut. The residential portion above it (called 1010 On The Rhine) is being developed/operated by Rookwood Properties, North American Properties, and NorthPointe Group, not 3CDC.

 

The Columbia and Court Street condos are 3CDC, and those projects will create a total of 52 units.

 

I can't recall what is/isn't public, but let's just say that their next big announcement will also be office focused.

 

But my point isn't really about how many units are being built. It's about the city's focus on making downtown an entertainment destination and lack of focus on making it a more livable urban neighborhood.

3 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

The residential portion of 4th and Race is being developed by Flaherty & Collins, an Indiana-based developer. 3CDC's role in this project is to operate the garage and retail spaces.

 

3CDC will run the parking garage at Court & Walnut. The residential portion above it (called 1010 On The Rhine) is being developed/operated by Rookwood Properties, North American Properties, and NorthPointe Group, not 3CDC.

 

The Columbia and Court Street condos are 3CDC, and those projects will create a total of 52 units.

 

But my point isn't really about how many units are being built. It's about the city's focus on making downtown an entertainment destination and lack of focus on making it a more livable urban neighborhood.

 

Well obviously there should be more effort directed towards liviability but to be fair our downtown is quite compact and walkable and liveable.

 

Even with the watered down liberty street diet it will still bring improvements regardless. 

 

They are making an effort to speed up the street car with signs priorization which was long overdue....

 

I think our biggest weak spot compared to other urban cores is our lack of dedicated bike lanes, which could theoretically be fixed with the new mayoral candidate after cranely leaves office. 

 

In regards to the entertainment aspect. Pushing focus towards entertainment isn't a bad thing, every large city has thousands of tourists each day because of those entertainment options... but I agree that there needs to be a practical balance. 

 

I think the problem with our city is that we are slowly reviving our downtown population but it's still not their yet. Meanwhile our entertainment options went from non existent back in the mid 2,000s to bursting at the seams today.

 

Before we had a boring city AND a ghost town of a city. I still remember how that Cubs pitcher made fun of Cincy for being such a boring city after he wanted to explore the city after a game...I believe this was back in 2010- 2011 maybe?

 

Trust me, you never want to be boring. 

.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, troeros said:

Well obviously there should be more effort directed towards liviability but to be fair our downtown is quite compact and walkable and liveable.

 

Our urban core is technically very walkable but in practice we have still a very anti-pedestrian culture that needs to change for people to be comfortable walking around downtown. This isn't going to change until we have a city administration that prioritizes walkability and is willing to move forward with traffic calming projects. As for the improvements that the city says they are going to make to speed up the streetcar and improve Liberty Street ... I will believe it when I see it. It seems like other cities that prioritize transit and pedestrians simply flip a switch and make these improvements. Here we drag our feet and try to come up with every excuse why it can't be done. Last December when City Council was presented with the first draft of the Traffic Study, there was some discussion about giving pedestrians a "jump" signal -- basically pedestrians would get a walk signal a second before cars heading in the same direction got a green light. This would allow pedestrians crossing the street to get out into the intersection and make it more clear that turning cars have to yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk. It's such a simple thing, it's very easy to implement and already exists in many other cities across America, but I bet our city leadership will spend the next 2 or 3 years "studying" this proposal before implementing it...if they ever do.

Sure. But what has happened in the last few years is that the balance between livability and entertainment has shifted heavily towards entertainment amenities.

 

This is hurting the sale of condos and the leasing of apartments in parts of OTR. It is why half of the Radius is run by a air-bnb style hotel company.

 

Every city has "that" part of town with the club scene but if we lean too far into that and too much, then we risk putting all our eggs in the tourism basket, we fall flat in creating a truly sustained revitalization. Instead we just get 90's OTR Main Street part two. That scene came and went and OTR was none the better for it. While the current renaissance is more sustained in OTR, the same can't be said for the Banks. It's bad enough residents there have two major league stadiums to contend with, now they have even more entertainment outside their bedroom windows. I get urban noise and hustle and bustle, but who wants to live next to the late-night amusement park?

28 minutes ago, JYP said:

Sure. But what has happened in the last few years is that the balance between livability and entertainment has shifted heavily towards entertainment amenities.

 

This is hurting the sale of condos and the leasing of apartments in parts of OTR. It is why half of the Radius is run by a air-bnb style hotel company.

 

Every city has "that" part of town with the club scene but if we lean too far into that and too much, then we risk putting all our eggs in the tourism basket, we fall flat in creating a truly sustained revitalization. Instead we just get 90's OTR Main Street part two. That scene came and went and OTR was none the better for it. While the current renaissance is more sustained in OTR, the same can't be said for the Banks. It's bad enough residents there have two major league stadiums to contend with, now they have even more entertainment outside their bedroom windows. I get urban noise and hustle and bustle, but who wants to live next to the late-night amusement park?

 

Is 90s Main St era really a good comparison though? It fell flat on it's face not because of the entertainment and wildness but because of the 2001 OTR race riots that absolutely decimated OTR and left crime to spew like crazy years after.

 

Also, how do people survive in Chicago or NYC?

 

Any big city you will have hundreds upon thousands of pedestrians, you will have retail tenants on the ground floor, you will have the sound of buses, trams, cars, people chatting, hot dog vendors shouting, music in the streets...If a city is quiet and tranquil that's a MAJOR problem. Cities are not meant to places of quiet and tranquility. They are meant to be a hub for life, energy and and bustle.

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by troeros

Seriously if you're acting like adding a music venue is hurting the banks you're just wrong.  The place was built as an entertainment area.  It literally sits between two stadiums.  The banks was never and could never be it's own self sustaining neighborhood, it's way too small.  People who are picking to live there want to do so because of the entertainment.  If you don't want to be right in the middle of it then go live in the other 95% of downtown.  

Cranley has shown to be extremely anti urban so until he's gone I'm not expecting pro urban things to really occur.  Get PG elected and we'll start seeing those things occur a lot more and a lot quicker.  

Honestly when I walk around town the biggest problems I see are underused buildings, skywalks and parking lots.

 

The underused buildings are slowly but surely getting fixed up, they need to tear down more skywalks, and the parking lots will get filled eventually, this is the END.

 

The MEANS to get to the END:

 

A robust *current* streetcar route, with fast times and reliability

 

Road treatment where needed and necessary

 

Road Diets

 

Re-orientation of traffic flow downtown

 

ALL these things will help build more growth, make itmore attractive, etc. and get more people wanting to live and work downtown.

 

I get we need parking ramps downtown, but we can have both streetlife and ramps. Look at Bangkok or LA

3 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Seriously if you're acting like adding a music venue is hurting the banks you're just wrong.  The place was built as an entertainment area.  It literally sits between two stadiums.  The banks was never and could never be it's own self sustaining neighborhood, it's way too small.  People who are picking to live there want to do so because of the entertainment.  If you don't want to be right in the middle of it then go live in the other 95% of downtown.  

 

Exactly!

 

Aside from the banks and portions of south of liberty otr how much entertainment saturation really is there?

 

By and large most of the CBD is still grossly dead, aside for pockets like race St (thanks by and large to tokoyo kitty and north side distillery)...

6 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Honestly when I walk around town the biggest problems I see are underused buildings, skywalks and parking lots.

 

The underused buildings are slowly but surely getting fixed up, they need to tear down more skywalks, and the parking lots will get filled eventually, this is the END.

 

The MEANS to get to the END:

 

A robust *current* streetcar route, with fast times and reliability

 

Road treatment where needed and necessary

 

Road Diets

 

Re-orientation of traffic flow downtown

 

ALL these things will help build more growth, make itmore attractive, etc. and get more people wanting to live and work downtown.

 

I get we need parking ramps downtown, but we can have both streetlife and ramps. Look at Bangkok or LA

 

You can't really fix the school system though. 99.9 percent of people in Cincy choose their suburban neighborhoods because of the school districts...Mason, Sycamore, etc...

 

Cincinnati Public school is just so disgustingly bad...I don't know how you raise your kids in the urban core and send then to Cincinnati public?

21 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Is 90s Main St era really a good comparison though? It fell flat on it's face not because of the entertainment and wildness but because of the 2001 OTR race riots that absolutely decimated OTR and left crime to spew like crazy years after.

 

Also, how do people survive in Chicago or NYC?

 

Any big city you will have hundreds upon thousands of pedestrians, you will have retail tenants on the ground floor, you will have the sound of buses, trams, cars, people chatting, hot dog vendors shouting, music in the streets...If a city is quiet and tranquil that's a MAJOR problem. Cities are not meant to places of quiet and tranquility. They are meant to be a hub for life, energy and and bustle.

 

You missed my point. Most of that falls under general urban noise, the quintessential sounds of major cities across the world.

 

I’m talking about living outside a place that has events all the time. Sure people buy into that that live there, but what is happening is that people are not living there per se, just staying there as lodging. Fine, if you want the Banks to be mostly office and hotel. Not fine if you thought you were getting the 2000’s era vision of a mixed-use neighborhood.

 

Even with the two stadiums, there are only 90 home baseball games and 7-8 home football games. It was never active enough to be a true entertainment destination so it had a shot at being something of a neighborhood. Now we are doubling down on entertainment so why not?

8 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

You missed my point. Most of that falls under general urban noise, the quintessential sounds of major cities across the world.

 

I’m talking about living outside a place that has events all the time. Sure people buy into that that live there, but what is happening is that people are not living there per se, just staying there as lodging. Fine, if you want the Banks to be mostly office and hotel. Not fine if you thought you were getting the 2000’s era vision of a mixed-use neighborhood.

 

Even with the two stadiums, there are only 90 home baseball games and 7-8 home football games. It was never active enough to be a true entertainment destination so it had a shot at being something of a neighborhood. Now we are doubling down on entertainment so why not?

 

Wait why are you saying people are not living their when I have quite a few friends that already live at the banks?

 

I'm not sure why their is a perceotion that no one lives at the banks when that is simply not true...

I think one of the factors that is being overlooked in this conversation is rental vs. ownership. It's relatively easy to build apartments downtown because there will always be 20-somethings who want to live near bars and concert venues. There will also be a lot of young professionals who get a job with one of our Fortune 500 companies and move to Cincinnati and rent a place downtown, because they don't know how long they are going to stay in Cincinnati. But if you want people to buy a condo or townhome in the urban core, you need to do a lot more to make it a pleasant place to live, not just a pleasant place to get drunk and see concerts or watch sports. Notice that 90% of what's being built today is apartments. Not many new condos are being built, and the condo resale market is struggling. The condos that were going to be built at The Banks got scrapped and that space got rolled into the AC Hotel. The condos that were going to be built at Eighth and Main got turned into apartments. Buying a home in one of the neighborhoods 10 minutes away from downtown is a better value proposition for many people.

4 minutes ago, taestell said:

I think one of the factors that is being overlooked in this conversation is rental vs. ownership. It's relatively easy to build apartments downtown because there will always be 20-somethings who want to live near bars and concert venues. There will also be a lot of young professionals who get a job with one of our Fortune 500 companies and move to Cincinnati and rent a place downtown, because they don't know how long they are going to stay in Cincinnati. But if you want people to buy a condo or townhome in the urban core, you need to do a lot more to make it a pleasant place to live, not just a pleasant place to get drunk and see concerts or watch sports. Notice that 90% of what's being built today is apartments. Not many new condos are being built, and the condo resale market is struggling. The condos that were going to be built at The Banks got scrapped and that space got rolled into the AC Hotel. The condos that were going to be built at Eighth and Main got turned into apartments. Buying a home in one of the neighborhoods 10 minutes away from downtown is a better value proposition for many people.

 

I think value is a factor for sure...

 

 

But I think bigger factors are School Systems (Cincinnati public sucks), Safety (Can you walk alone at night downtown without overlooking your shoulder that you won't get mugged?), Ammenties (clothes stores, grocery stores, a bicycle store, a mom and pop vaccum store, etc), etc.  

 

I think people who want an urban downtown life won't be turned off by the value aspect.

 

I think raising a family in downtown Cincy is tough with the crappy Cincinnati public school system, and lack of urban ammenties. 

^Appalachian towns certainly have their mom & pop vacuum stores (AKA Sweeper Shops) covered!

When I say "value proposition" I'm not talking about just money. I'm talking about, what neighborhood offers the best mix of all of the things that you want, and are you willing to pay the cost of living there? Many Cincinnatians who are in their 30's and up don't really care about Galla Park or the new Banks music venue, so they are not going to pay extra for the privilege of being near those things. If your primary concern is living in a neighborhood that is somewhat walkable/bikeable/transit accessible, has a nice park nearby, and has a handful of nice restaurants and a corner pub within walking distance, there are now several neighborhoods in Cincinnati that are significantly cheaper than Downtown that offer those same amenities. It's not that people are "too cheap" to live downtown, it's that they don't think they are getting anything extra (that they care about) for the extra cost of living downtown.

5 minutes ago, taestell said:

When I say "value proposition" I'm not talking about just money. I'm talking about, what neighborhood offers the best mix of all of the things that you want, and are you willing to pay the cost of living there? Many Cincinnatians who are in their 30's and up don't really care about Galla Park or the new Banks music venue, so they are not going to pay extra for the privilege of being near those things. If your primary concern is living in a neighborhood that is somewhat walkable/bikeable/transit accessible, has a nice park nearby, and has a handful of nice restaurants and a corner pub within walking distance, there are now several neighborhoods in Cincinnati that are significantly cheaper than Downtown that offer those same amenities. It's not that people are "too cheap" to live downtown, it's that they don't think they are getting anything extra (that they care about) for the extra cost of living downtown.

 

I don't really understand this sentiment. Cincinnati has always had neighborhoods that have restaurants, shops, parks, and bars within walking distance. Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, Northside, Mt. Adams, Oakley all fit this bill, and all existed before the revitalization of OTR. I understand that The Banks isn't for everyone. It's 100% not for me, for example. In addition to the crowds and noise of the stadiums, the biggest knock for me is being right next to the FWW freeway trench and the super wide freeway-lite Second and Third streets. But it seems to me that the urban core neighborhoods have more amenities now than they have basically ever had in the modern era. It sucks that Macys and the other retail by Fountain Square has gone away, but in terms of having daily needs accessible, I think the core is in a better place today than basically ever before. The amount of restaurants in OTR far exceeds the offerings of any other neighborhood. Findlay Market is booming, and the retail spaces around the market are getting rehabbed and filled for the first time in my lifetime. There's a streetcar to circulate people around to the different nodes (performance/route issues aside). There will soon be a full service grocery store and food hall. Beautiful and vibrant new and rehabbed parks (Ziegler, Washington, Smale). Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods still offer the most walkable environment in the region, plus it's the only part of the region with real traditional urbanism and it has the best transit access of any neighborhood. 

 

I also don't really understand the complaints about the city center not being pedestrian friendly. Downtown and OTR have pretty narrow streets as it is. Traffic is not an issue outside of maybe the afternoon rush hour. Jay walking is routine and easy and not policed. Could the city have more bike lanes? Sure. They could add pedestrian bumpouts to other streets in OTR like Main St got. Liberty, Central Parkway and the streets by the Banks are a mess and need to be narrowed for sure. But overall, I never thought Downtown Cincinnati was difficult or stressful to navigate on foot...like at all. It's quite easy and pleasant, I think. Blocks are short, lights are frequent, streets are seldom crowded. Not really sure where these complaints are coming from. Of course Cranley and Co. suck, and they should have moved forward on the giving pedestrians the walk light before cars get the green, implemented signal priority for the streetcar months ago, etc. But overall, I think the situation isn't bad at all for pedestrians. 

1 hour ago, taestell said:

I think one of the factors that is being overlooked in this conversation is rental vs. ownership. It's relatively easy to build apartments downtown because there will always be 20-somethings who want to live near bars and concert venues. There will also be a lot of young professionals who get a job with one of our Fortune 500 companies and move to Cincinnati and rent a place downtown, because they don't know how long they are going to stay in Cincinnati. But if you want people to buy a condo or townhome in the urban core, you need to do a lot more to make it a pleasant place to live, not just a pleasant place to get drunk and see concerts or watch sports. Notice that 90% of what's being built today is apartments. Not many new condos are being built, and the condo resale market is struggling. The condos that were going to be built at The Banks got scrapped and that space got rolled into the AC Hotel. The condos that were going to be built at Eighth and Main got turned into apartments. Buying a home in one of the neighborhoods 10 minutes away from downtown is a better value proposition for many people.

 

The lack of condo construction as I understand is due to banks and developers not wanting to deal with the headaches and [perceived] risks, not due to a lack of demand. A lot of banks got burned on condos in '08-'09 so now they are very very tough in terms of presale requirements etc. This article got written at length about the issue in Cleveland but I'm thinking most of it would apply equally in Cincy: As downtown Cleveland grows, condos are in short supply. So it might be that the people you are talking about are choosing to buy in other neighborhoods because they can't find anything to buy in Downtown, not vice versa. Cincy does have more 'complete' walkable neighborhoods than Cleveland does though.

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by mu2010

Most lenders require condo developers to achieve 75% or more of presales before closing on the first units in a development.  Therefore, early buyers don't know when they'll be able to move in.  In large developments this presale requirement can take months or years.  Therefore, most condo developments today are small 4-8 unit projects and larger projects are nearly always rental apartments.

46 minutes ago, edale said:

 But overall, I think the situation isn't bad at all for pedestrians. 

 

It's really easy to walk or bike anywhere in DT Cincinnati and other areas with narrow streets.  FWW plus second & third are a still a problem, even after their complete reconstruction 20 years ago.  

If you don't have people you can't have a city. You can talk apartments, condos, high rises, hotels, and the like but since the 50s people have been moving to the burbs. Shopping malls, businesses, hotels followed and people commuted by auto (one person to a car/too bigga truck) People are flocking south. They may come back as the water and humidity rise but that wont happen till there is good reason: jobs, real attractions, a way to make money. Cities like San Antonio, Austin, Charlotte, Raleigh,and Atlanta are booming. And,  most of Florida and Texas are booming, too. Friends visiting our fair city have consistently commented about the lack of a city. "Where are the people? Its not a big as I thought."  Cincy seems to like beer, pizza, chili and chain restaurants. So, the locals can get that in spades. Tourists need a reason to come and spend money. A tourist from Europe, or Asia will never want to experience the ambiance of middle America. In the 70s people came to America to see gold paved streets and buildings 1000 feet tall. Now those things are in their own countries. Many places Ive visited have good transportation systems. In most bigger cities you can take a fast train to major city or take a local train to many of the smaller towns and both types of trains are in the same station. Our streetcars are like your first toy train set. A choo choo on an oval track. If and when people give up their cars and trucks, and we have unique shops, restaurants,  music, and curio shops. Plus, saxophone players on street corners and beggars and  mamas with babies and daddys with cigars Cincy will not draw the numbers to get that big city vibe. 

^^Ironically defeatism is a symptom of the very disease you’re describing. So chin up, things are never as bad or as good as they seem, but they are unfailingly more interesting. 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by Pdrome513

6 hours ago, JYP said:

 

You missed my point. Most of that falls under general urban noise, the quintessential sounds of major cities across the world.

 

I’m talking about living outside a place that has events all the time. Sure people buy into that that live there, but what is happening is that people are not living there per se, just staying there as lodging. Fine, if you want the Banks to be mostly office and hotel. Not fine if you thought you were getting the 2000’s era vision of a mixed-use neighborhood.

 

Even with the two stadiums, there are only 90 home baseball games and 7-8 home football games. It was never active enough to be a true entertainment destination so it had a shot at being something of a neighborhood. Now we are doubling down on entertainment so why not?

What was in this 2000s vision of the banks? What do you want it to have that it doesn’t have now? The area still isn’t even half built out so there’s plenty of room for additions. 

5 hours ago, RJohnson said:

If you don't have people you can't have a city. You can talk apartments, condos, high rises, hotels, and the like but since the 50s people have been moving to the burbs. Shopping malls, businesses, hotels followed and people commuted by auto (one person to a car/too bigga truck) People are flocking south. They may come back as the water and humidity rise but that wont happen till there is good reason: jobs, real attractions, a way to make money. Cities like San Antonio, Austin, Charlotte, Raleigh,and Atlanta are booming. And,  most of Florida and Texas are booming, too. Friends visiting our fair city have consistently commented about the lack of a city. "Where are the people? Its not a big as I thought."  Cincy seems to like beer, pizza, chili and chain restaurants. So, the locals can get that in spades. Tourists need a reason to come and spend money. A tourist from Europe, or Asia will never want to experience the ambiance of middle America. In the 70s people came to America to see gold paved streets and buildings 1000 feet tall. Now those things are in their own countries. Many places Ive visited have good transportation systems. In most bigger cities you can take a fast train to major city or take a local train to many of the smaller towns and both types of trains are in the same station. Our streetcars are like your first toy train set. A choo choo on an oval track. If and when people give up their cars and trucks, and we have unique shops, restaurants,  music, and curio shops. Plus, saxophone players on street corners and beggars and  mamas with babies and daddys with cigars Cincy will not draw the numbers to get that big city vibe. 

 

I understand the perception...but what Cincy was back in the early - mid 2000's is NOTHING compared to what it is today...

 

The banks was a massive parking lot. OTR was a crime filled, drug laden wasteland with demolition every other month. 

 

There was no night life except for some bars scattered around the CBD and Mt. Adams being the focal point. 

 

There was no street car, even as a so called "choo choo" train, it's still a good starting point for something bigger and more expansive....and with the right leadership well get there. 

 

I know 3cdc gets mixed impressions from time to time but they know what the hell they are doing. They turned this city around in a relatively short period that urbanists and other city officials are doing case studies and taking notes of their success. 

 

3cdc knows what this city needs. It needs gentrification. It needs Luxery residential units. It needs rich people with spending power living downtown. I'm all for supporting the poor and needy but they do absolutely nothing for moving the city forward as a whole.

 

All of the most big and successful cities in America have more educated and rich residents living in their urban core than poor and lower class...This is for a REASON...

 

Poor people can't support the cities economy. Instead the city has to support them. This is why Luxery retail fleads from Cincy. They have no support....but with gentrification, by creating Luxery, by making otr a Disney Land full of obscure, overpriced resturaunts, by creating entertainment options and creating bars it creates a step forward that leads to what successful cities have. 

 

The sad reality is that we can't have a mixed city full of rich people and poor people living side by side. It's a demented dream. There will always be segregation, there will always be a south side of Chicago and a north side. 

 

I hate that im saying this, but it's the truth. 3cdc knows what the hell they are doing and for better or for worse it will get where cincy needs to be to compete with the large cities of America. 

10 hours ago, troeros said:

 

I understand the perception...but what Cincy was back in the early - mid 2000's is NOTHING compared to what it is today...

 

The banks was a massive parking lot. OTR was a crime filled, drug laden wasteland with demolition every other month. 

 

There was no night life except for some bars scattered around the CBD and Mt. Adams being the focal point. 

 

There was no street car, even as a so called "choo choo" train, it's still a good starting point for something bigger and more expansive....and with the right leadership well get there. 

 

I know 3cdc gets mixed impressions from time to time but they know what the hell they are doing. They turned this city around in a relatively short period that urbanists and other city officials are doing case studies and taking notes of their success. 

 

3cdc knows what this city needs. It needs gentrification. It needs Luxery residential units. It needs rich people with spending power living downtown. I'm all for supporting the poor and needy but they do absolutely nothing for moving the city forward as a whole.

 

All of the most big and successful cities in America have more educated and rich residents living in their urban core than poor and lower class...This is for a REASON...

 

Poor people can't support the cities economy. Instead the city has to support them. This is why Luxery retail fleads from Cincy. They have no support....but with gentrification, by creating Luxery, by making otr a Disney Land full of obscure, overpriced resturaunts, by creating entertainment options and creating bars it creates a step forward that leads to what successful cities have. 

 

The sad reality is that we can't have a mixed city full of rich people and poor people living side by side. It's a demented dream. There will always be segregation, there will always be a south side of Chicago and a north side. 

 

I hate that im saying this, but it's the truth. 3cdc knows what the hell they are doing and for better or for worse it will get where cincy needs to be to compete with the large cities of America. 

Yes there has been drastic change and its all good. Still, if more people were moving here there would be a need for high rises, corporate offices, etc. The population of the metro seems to stay the same. There is something charming about the history, neighborhoods, hills and river. The charm is on par with many other midsized Midwest cities. But when I read the arguments over whether a new complex should 5 of 6 stories tall, I can only think of high school. . 

On 7/12/2019 at 10:56 PM, Cincy513 said:

What was in this 2000s vision of the banks? What do you want it to have that it doesn’t have now? The area still isn’t even half built out so there’s plenty of room for additions. 

https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/linkservid/E506D20A-9B46-F3A6-6D763ECBC854F106/showMeta/0/

 

All 7 of the elements on pages 3-4, and the development program on pages 31-32.

 

Quote

The Riverfront Advisors plan for the central riverfront included a new market study by Economics Research Associates as well as seasoned input from the Advisors themselves and from the Cincinnati development and real estate community. Some program elements, such as the aquarium and I-Max theater, had moved to Newport and were no longer possible in the project. Also, the public process that the Advisors conducted indicated a very clear preference for housing and Cincinnati-based retail rather than an urban entertainment district on the central riverfront.

 

I get that this plan is 19 years old and what was developed does not entirely meet the framework of the plan. But right now, the Banks Steering Committee lacks the vision and determination to make the right choices with the remaining parts of this site. It has prompted an unnecessary and petty conflict of music venues and ferris wheels instead of focusing the conversation on building what downtown needs: more sustainable and financially successful development patterns like the housing, office, retail and hotels the original plan called for.

Yeah the only reason why the Banks got to where it is now is due to Mallory actually having a few closed door meetings to get them on track.   Without his leadership the thing is falling into chaos again.

Also MEMI has a terrible track record - they've canceled multiple events they got their grubby hands on after ruining them (MPMF, Tall Stacks, Jammin on Main) why give them a music venue that wastes valuable riverfront neighborhood space?   I know people have respect for the Symphony and what not but more people need to criticize this group for being badly managed and full of people with terrible ideas.   IMO they should be working on making the Emery what it should be if they want a concert venue - its one of the best in the whole country and yet is going to be used  just for Children's theater, WTF??!!!

 

Oh so that's why no Tall Stacks since '06

 

Quote

Also, how do people survive in Chicago or NYC?

We make do, urban living is like breathing air here in Chicago, people get it.  I can't say the same about many Cincinnatian's perspective on the issue.   Also we have both quiet neighborhoods and loud ones, pick which ones you want to live in but they are mostly very walkable.