To be more clear if the question of development on lots 1, 13, and 25 isn’t dealt with explicitly at this time the Bengals will use the issue to get even further concessions from the county at some point on the future 

Also it’s a politically difficult question to ask but is the proposed riverfront park in Lower Price Hill really a good location for a park? It’s thoroughly cut off from the rest of the neighborhood by train tracks and highway. How would it be accessed by families on foot? Might a park located more towards the center of the neighborhood be more accessible to neighborhood residents? 

2 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

To be more clear if the question of development on lots 1, 13, and 25 isn’t dealt with explicitly at this time the Bengals will use the issue to get even further concessions from the county at some point on the future 

This is my reservation as well. While Cranley trying to sabatoge a project he doesn’t like is rooted in fact and precedent, Mike Brown adding future issues and making bad faith deals has precedent too...

29 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Indoor entertainment is vastly cheaper on average than outdoor. This applies on many levels.

 

It costs like $80,000 to rent and set up a 60x40-foot stage.  And that's just the stage.  Not the lights or PA.  That's why Mapfre installed the permanent stage.  

Everything about this music venue was stupid to begin with.  Leave it to MEMI to make the wrong decision ?

This really isn’t about a music venue anymore, but the future of building out the Banks in general. As I understand it the Bengals and the county entered into a MUO that would save the county money on updating the stadium but requires so much surface parking nearby it could keep the rest of the Banks an open pit forever more. This despite the Bengals being on the Joint Steering Committee that has been pumping out renderings of a completed mixed use development for the past two decades. This was touted as a win by the county and it might be if the money they save updating the stadium is more than the tax revenues that developing the rest of the Banks would produce. 

 

Blame the Bengals for demanding vast  surface parking lots next to their urban stadium. 

Also, are millennial fans going to purchase the RVs and other tailgating gear to keep tailgating culture alive ten years from now? They’ll probably still be paying off student loans 

We should copy off Baylor's tailgating. Have Lot 'E' be made of reinforced turf so it can be a park space most of the year, but painted with parking lines during the Bengals season. Add a dock for aqua-tailgating, basically just copy what Baylor did on the South and West sides of PBS and develop all the parcels in the Banks to the East.

Edited September 4, 20195 yr by ucgrady

The fact that the Bengals have any guaranteed surface parking spots, when they chose to build their stadium in downtown, is so stupid.  That lease can't get torn up soon enough.  

If tailgating is that critical to the game day experience, they should just turn their practice field into a parking lot.

The best part about all of this is that tailgating is not legal.

 

Doesn't matter if its a public or private lot, if it's held out for commercial use to the public and doesn't have a liquor license, it's a violation of open container laws. If it does have a liquor license, it's illegal to bring your own beer. 

Dream scenario:

• Bengals build a new stadium next to the tennis center in Mason. Kings Island can sell spots in their parking lot to tailgaters. 
• Subway tunnel extended south from the Central Parkway bend, under Plum Street. Continue south of the river to meetup with the Covington elevated rail tracks.

Benefits:

• Get Mike Brown out of Cincinnati and Hamilton County politics
• Free up a ton of space at the Banks
• Connect FCC stadium, expanded convention center, Banks, and Covington IRS development along a rail corridor that can connect to regional rail on both sides.

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

Blame the Bengals for demanding vast  surface parking lots next to their urban stadium. 

 

It gives downtown property owners a way to slow the expansion of The Banks and so keep it from pilfering developers.  The new GE building downtown versus The Banks was a wash for the city but a disaster for downtown's private parking lot owners who only get 1 shot per decade to score a premium project like that.  

The fact that Seelbach is now siding with Cranley shows that he is just as skeptical of Mike Brown as I am:

 

Per Bussiness Courier, "Meanwhile, Councilman Chris Seelbach, who often has been critical of the mayor throughout their six years of service together, said Wednesday that he is siding, for now, with the mayor in Cranley’s dispute with the county. " “The mayor convinced me that this was a much better deal for the Bengals, who already have the best deal for them and the worst deal for taxpayers … maybe in the country,” Seelbach said in an interview.

 

“The Banks should not be filled with surface parking. The last thing we need is more parking for surface-level tailgating,” Seelbach said.

 

 

I think either way they go the Bengals will want to extract concessions. They've done this at every point since Phase II was proposed in 2014.

 

IIRC the original lease stated that the Bengals had rights to veto anything at the Banks over a certain height west of Vine street. Actually here is some info from a WCPO story from last year:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/will-bengals-agree-to-music-venue-near-paul-brown-if-tailgaters-get-game-day-concerts-

Quote

Under a lease signed with the county 20 years ago, the Bengals can veto any building taller than three stories or an auditorium that seats more than 3,000 near the stadium, according to a June memo from Cincinnati Solicitor Paula Boggs Muething.

 

The changes from earlier this year gave the County much of what they want with this guarantee of surface spaces. Does that mean the rest of the development has to remain parking to make up the difference in spaces? It's probably the cheapest option for sure, but probably not the only option. 

 

There are a few other lots they could consider as options but they are closer to Longworth Hall and potentially staging for BSB. The properties in blue could be potential parking. Red is Hilltop.

 

 

https://www.citybeat.com/news/blog/21085639/hamilton-county-commissioners-unanimously-approve-new-permanent-skystar-wheel-at-the-banks

 

New Renderings of the Larger Skystar with new permenant concession stands and corn hole lawn. 

 

Look, it's cheeky but it's a nice addition to this city overall. I'm happy this happened 

I hope they don't have a naming contest for the wheel.  No telling what we might end up with.  

 

 

 

Looks the be in the same spot too, based on the view of PBS

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

I hope they don't have a naming contest for the wheel.  No telling what we might end up with.  

 

Wheely McWheelface

This makes it look like Yard House will be providing concessions based off the location of PBS in the rendering.

I don't have access, but...

 

BATTLE AT THE BANKS

The future of Cincinnati's riverfront is at stake

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Mayor John Cranley, who lost a political battle in 2018 when City Council and the commissioners OK’d a recommendation by the Joint Banks Steering Committee to award the Banks music venue to a Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra subsidiary over his preferred developer, has all but declared war on the county.

 

MORE

If you have a public library card, you have access to all Business Courier stories online. Go to "research and databases" on their website. It also gives you access to the New York Times, but it's annoyingly complicated to use. 

That's a really long and thorough article and does a good job of breaking down the issues. Many of the points are up for debate, but placing the concert venue on Lot 24 would be huge waste unless it was somehow surrounded or incorporated into a larger building that included office/apartment users like the Emery Theater or Congress Theater in Chicago. Office seems like it would make more sense since the users are out of there before any loud concerts would come on at night time. 

 

By the time all of this is sorted out the Promowest venue in Newport will be up and running and booking good artists, I really wish they would've picked them from the start. That might be the only thing I agree with Cranley on. 

Really interested to see how this plays out. Now with the talks of House of Blues possibly coming along with Hard Rock, how many of these venues are going to be competitive?

1 hour ago, tonyt3524 said:

Really interested to see how this plays out. Now with the talks of House of Blues possibly coming along with Hard Rock, how many of these venues are going to be competitive?

How did you hear this? Are you the same person who said Gucci was opening in Kenwood Mall? Lol

11 minutes ago, 513to424 said:

How did you hear this? Are you the same person who said Gucci was opening in Kenwood Mall? Lol

 

Another thread lol

 

 

The PromoWest venue in Newport is already well under construction. MEMI needs to scrap their proposal. Cut our losses. Focus on building out the rest of The Banks with mixed-used buildings like the planners intended.

1 hour ago, 513to424 said:

How did you hear this? Are you the same person who said Gucci was opening in Kenwood Mall? Lol

 

No but I am that person and I am looking at the Gucci at Kenwood Towne Center design set right now...

This is getting fun!

 

https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-comments-on-riverfront-development

 

"When the County approached us with the idea of building a music venue on another site at The Banks and keeping Paul Brown Stadium in good repair, we said yes. The Bengals even committed $30 million to making that happen. We worked together. We said yes."

 

Which part did they commit money to? Maintaining their own stadium, or the music venue?

One item that I have not heard thus far in the discussions regarding the relocation of Hilltop to the mouth of the Millcreek in Queensgate is that the Central Railroad of Indiana and CSX effectively control the access to both parcels and there are no public streets or at grade crossings serving the sites.   I don't know that the railroads have weighed in on any changes in access or use to these parcels.  Seems like they are an important stakeholder in this area and have been overlooked as is often the case.   

‘Green tailgating’ proposed to replace Hilltop on the riverfront

 

 

During a Joint Banks Steering Committee meeting Friday afternoon, Tom Gabelman, Hamilton County’s attorney on the Banks, presented the plan for how the county would use the 15-acre Hilltop property.

 

Gabelman unveiled a rendering from MSA Architects showing the land where the current concrete facility sits would be converted into a “green” tailgating area for parking. This is an update on how the county plans to use the riverfront property directly south of Paul Brown Stadium. Until now, the use for the Hilltop property has only been described as surface parking for Bengals tailgating.

 

The green tailgating space would be an important part of what the county is trying to do to continue development activity at the Banks. The county is trying to execute a complex real estate deal to get the music venue built and make key changes to its lease with the Cincinnati Bengals.

 

Mayor John Cranley has raised myriad objections to the deal and sat on ordinances that would move it along.

 

Former Mayor Charlie Luken said during the meeting he doesn’t want to see the Hilltop property become more blacktop.

 

“If I was king, I would never, ever let Hilltop go to a surface parking lot so people can drink beer 10 times a year,” Luken said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/27/green-tailgating-proposed-to-replace-hilltop-on.html

“If I was king, I would never, ever let Hilltop go to a surface parking lot so people can ILLEGALLY drink beer 10 times a year,” Luken said.

 

Fixed it 

17 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

‘Green tailgating’ proposed to replace Hilltop on the riverfront

 

 

During a Joint Banks Steering Committee meeting Friday afternoon, Tom Gabelman, Hamilton County’s attorney on the Banks, presented the plan for how the county would use the 15-acre Hilltop property.

 

Gabelman unveiled a rendering from MSA Architects showing the land where the current concrete facility sits would be converted into a “green” tailgating area for parking. This is an update on how the county plans to use the riverfront property directly south of Paul Brown Stadium. Until now, the use for the Hilltop property has only been described as surface parking for Bengals tailgating.

 

The green tailgating space would be an important part of what the county is trying to do to continue development activity at the Banks. The county is trying to execute a complex real estate deal to get the music venue built and make key changes to its lease with the Cincinnati Bengals.

 

Mayor John Cranley has raised myriad objections to the deal and sat on ordinances that would move it along.

 

Former Mayor Charlie Luken said during the meeting he doesn’t want to see the Hilltop property become more blacktop.

 

“If I was king, I would never, ever let Hilltop go to a surface parking lot so people can drink beer 10 times a year,” Luken said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/27/green-tailgating-proposed-to-replace-hilltop-on.html

 

That's an AMAZING proposal

20 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

‘Green tailgating’ proposed to replace Hilltop on the riverfront

 

 

During a Joint Banks Steering Committee meeting Friday afternoon, Tom Gabelman, Hamilton County’s attorney on the Banks, presented the plan for how the county would use the 15-acre Hilltop property.

 

Gabelman unveiled a rendering from MSA Architects showing the land where the current concrete facility sits would be converted into a “green” tailgating area for parking. This is an update on how the county plans to use the riverfront property directly south of Paul Brown Stadium. Until now, the use for the Hilltop property has only been described as surface parking for Bengals tailgating.

 

The green tailgating space would be an important part of what the county is trying to do to continue development activity at the Banks. The county is trying to execute a complex real estate deal to get the music venue built and make key changes to its lease with the Cincinnati Bengals.

 

Mayor John Cranley has raised myriad objections to the deal and sat on ordinances that would move it along.

 

Former Mayor Charlie Luken said during the meeting he doesn’t want to see the Hilltop property become more blacktop.

 

“If I was king, I would never, ever let Hilltop go to a surface parking lot so people can drink beer 10 times a year,” Luken said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/27/green-tailgating-proposed-to-replace-hilltop-on.html

Hopefully that parking lot between the stadium and the river will also get turned into some green space

I have always loved the parking/tailgating lots at Keenland.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Keeneland+Association+Inc/@38.0462726,-84.5980705,464a,35y,270h,39.26t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x3b91c3c4cd0fdb10!8m2!3d38.0461301!4d-84.6080081

 

Streetview

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0467849,-84.6041965,3a,60y,102.56h,92.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-W8l7VNhljEhdW_cJnHNJA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by oakiehigh

Dang... this should definitely happen. Our public spaces need to have stacked functions. There is ample parking already at the Banks and Smale. Creating a green tailgating lawn would be tremendously unique and way better for the environment and public.

Reminds me of the tailgating set up for OU games in Athens. The grass lot to the west of Richland and south of Schafer is termed "Tailgreat Park" and is the center of the tailgating action on game day. Makes for a really pleasant afternoon. 

 

 

A public landing type of setup with permeable paving could be an interesting multipurpose space, but the tailgaters would probably complain about the slope. 

Castellini calls for unity, but city/county remain at odds on the Banks

 

When Bob Castellini, chairman of the Joint Banks Steering Committee, started Friday’s meeting, he raised his voice because there were no microphones in the room. But he raised it even more while voicing his frustration over the battle that has been brewing between the city of Cincinnati and Hamilton County over how to complete development of the 18-acre site between Paul Brown Stadium and Great American Ball Park.

 

“We are one region and we are stronger working together as a team,” Castellini said.

 

At the heart of the battle is a proposed indoor/outdoor music venue next to Paul Brown Stadium. In 2018 City Council and commissioners OK’d a recommendation by the committee to award the Banks music venue to a Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra subsidiary over Mayor John Cranley’s preferred developer. To move the music venue forward, the county is trying to execute a complex real estate deal and make key changes to its lease with the Cincinnati Bengals. It needs the city’s help.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/30/castellini-calls-for-unity-but-city-county-remain.html

MEMI unveils music venue refinements as city, county battle over the Banks

 

 

Since Music & Event Management Inc., the nonprofit concert arm of Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was awarded the music venue at the Banks more than a year ago, it has continued to refine its design and integration into Smale Park.

 

Mike Smith, CEO of MEMI, said the exterior design of the music venue has been updated to make it feel more alive during the day and at night. The park space, which will also be used for outdoor concerts, could be used for Bengals tailgating, community activities, races and other events.

 

Smith presented an update on the project during Sept. 27’s Joint Banks Steering Committee meeting. The committee is a panel of executives that provides recommendations to the city of Cincinnati and Hamilton County about how to develop the riverfront. 

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/30/memi-unveils-music-venue-refinements-as-city.html

45 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

Castellini calls for unity, but city/county remain at odds on the Banks

 

If they want unity, why not go broader than city/county and let NKY take the W on the whole music venue thing?

"Newport won the music venue fight but we won the Ferris wheel fight, now let's stop fighting and just be friends" - Said no one in Cincinnati ever

These two venues will not be competitors.  They're totally different sizes.  It's like saying the PNC Pavillion competes with the big stage at Riverbend.  

Will today be decision day on the riverfront for Cincinnati City Council?

 

Cincinnati City Council could consider two motions on Wednesday regarding the continuing controversy over development of the city’s riverfront, and while neither carries the force of law, the votes could prove pivotal.

 

One motion sponsored by council members David Mann and Amy Murray says council is willing to sell riverfront land to Hilltop Companies only if disputes over other issues surrounding an agreement to swap land with the concrete company are worked out. That deal would pave the way for construction of a music venue at the Banks on the city and county’s preferred lot just east of Paul Brown Stadium, use Hilltop’s site for green tailgating and make major amendments to the Hamilton County and Cincinnati Bengals lease that the county contends will save taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.

 

Hilltop has requested that council tell it whether it is willing to sell land the city owns just east of the Mill Creek’s entrance to the Ohio River in exchange for it turning over land it has a purchase contract just west of the Mill Creek. Hilltop plans to use the site for barge unloading while locating its concrete plant in the Sixth Street yard. A relocation site for a related asphalt plant has not been determined.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/02/will-today-be-decision-day-on-the-riverfront-for.html

Council votes to kill land swap that would make way for music venue; here's what it means

 

 

Cincinnati City Council voted 6-0 on Wednesday against land swap that is at the center of a major city-county dispute over future development of the city’s riverfront.

 

The swap, which council killed after hearing neighborhood concerns, would have allowed concrete company Hilltop to move from the riverfront so that a grass-covered parking lot could be built in its place. It paved the way for a music venue to be built at the Banks and cleared the way for major changes to the Hamilton County-Cincinnati Bengals lease aimed at saving taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.

 

Councilman Chris Seelbach wrote the motion orally from the council dais along with Mayor John Cranley, and council took an immediate vote. The move came after Cranley and Councilman Greg Landsman got word that Hilltop’s president, Kevin Sheehan, and the county’s attorney on the Banks,Tom Gabelman, still intended to work on the land swap deal and did not take an earlier council vote on a different motion as an indication that the swap was dead.

 

“Hopefully, that will put that to rest,” Cranley said after the vote on the second motion.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/02/council-votes-to-kill-land-swap-that-would-make.html

 

I wonder if this piece of land could be a viable alternative for Hilltop? It's in an industrial area not too far from downtown (but is still in the city). It seems like they would be close enough to figure out a way to access the river. Not sure if rail access would matter but that would be there too. I think this is currently empty. If I recall from an article I read at some point, Peter Cremer was considering this land for future expansion.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/03/portune-hilltop-relocation-will-have-to-be-outside.html.

 

 My bets say that it will be in NKY.

So if we build the MEMI music venue at The Banks, the city will lose 105 jobs and $150,000/year in income taxes. Is it still worth it?

1 minute ago, taestell said:

So if we build the MEMI music venue at The Banks, the city will lose 105 jobs and $150,000/year in income taxes. Is it still worth it?

 

I mean city council were the ones who decided to put up fight because cranely got cranky that his favorite promoter wasnt picked.