Having a bridge that travels directly from Cincinnati's street grid to Covington's street grid would open up some possibilities for better transit connectivity. The Roebling can't handle full sized buses and may be converted to pedestrian-only someday. Both the CWB and Taylor-Southgate require a several minute detour.

The TANK transit center was built on Madison in the big parking garage in anticipation of the Race-Madison bridge.  TANK is been kicked off the suspension bridge with the exception of the Southbank Shuttle, which was forced to buy the dorky buses it has now in order to keep using it.  

 

So to review:

 

1. For roughly 100 years, TANK streetcars and buses served DT Cincinnati via the Dixie Terminal. It was very, very fast.  There was a single stop sign near Riverfront Stadium, then the buses traveled over FWW to the Dixie Terminal building.  

 

2. In 1998~ TANK was kicked out of Dixie Terminal as part of the FWW rebuild. TANK started puttering around 4th and 5th streets, stopping at light after light.  

 

3. Circa 2010~ TANK was kicked off the Suspension Bridge completely...2 miles and several traffic signals added to every single run.   

 

4. The 2X Airport Express as well as any other suburban buses that travel on I-75 are slated to become even slower after the 5th St. ramp is rebuilt as a Texas Turnaround.  

 

The situation keeps getting worse and worse.  A relatively inexpensive new 2-lane bridge connecting Race & Madison offers a significant improvement to every Kenton and Boone County TANK route.  But it re-opens the Covington Riverfront to development that can compete with DT Cincinnati, which is why the blue bloods will fight it endlessly.  

 

Cincinnati blue bloods are why all the downtown department stores were all so far away from each other instead of clustered within a 2-3 block stretch of High St. like they were in Columbus.

44 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

The TANK transit center was built on Madison in the big parking garage in anticipation of the Race-Madison bridge.  TANK is been kicked off the suspension bridge with the exception of the Southbank Shuttle, which was forced to buy the dorky buses it has now in order to keep using it.  

 

So to review:

 

1. For roughly 100 years, TANK streetcars and buses served DT Cincinnati via the Dixie Terminal. It was very, very fast.  There was a single stop sign near Riverfront Stadium, then the buses traveled over FWW to the Dixie Terminal building.  

 

2. In 1998~ TANK was kicked out of Dixie Terminal as part of the FWW rebuild. TANK started puttering around 4th and 5th streets, stopping at light after light.  

 

3. Circa 2010~ TANK was kicked off the Suspension Bridge completely...2 miles and several traffic signals added to every single run.   

 

4. The 2X Airport Express as well as any other suburban buses that travel on I-75 are slated to become even slower after the 5th St. ramp is rebuilt as a Texas Turnaround.  

 

The situation keeps getting worse and worse.  A relatively inexpensive new 2-lane bridge connecting Race & Madison offers a significant improvement to every Kenton and Boone County TANK route.  But it re-opens the Covington Riverfront to development that can compete with DT Cincinnati, which is why the blue bloods will fight it endlessly.  

 

 

That's a great conspiracy theory, but the truth is much simpler. The suspension bridge cannot handle full sized buses, we don't prioritize transit in this region, and we can't afford to replace the Brent Spence Bridge, much less an additional Race-Madison bridge. It has nothing to do with concerns over Covington stealing business from DT Cincinnati.

27 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

It has nothing to do with concerns over Covington stealing business from DT Cincinnati.

 

It has everything to do with it.  Class A office space is the most profitable type of real estate, and those who control a city control where it can be built throughout a combination of transportation access, zoning, and height limits.  There is no such thing as Class A office space outside of NYC and a handful of other places that has poor access to expressways.  Covington had very good access to I-71 until FWW was rebuilt.  It's no coincidence that the center tube that formerly lead to Rivercenter I & II in Covington now leads directly to the Queen City Square tower's parking garage.  

9 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

There is no such thing as Class A office space outside of NYC and a handful of other places that has poor access to expressways.

 

And it just so happens Covington has an expressway running right through it. And regional leaders have made it a priority to replace the expressway bridge and add even more capacity. If they were trying to kill the Covington office market that would be a very poor strategy.

^Madison is where DT Covington has always been centered.  It's where the courthouse is because it's directly opposite DT Cincinnati.  When they were built, Rivercenter I & II had better access to I-71 and I-75 at the south end of the suspension bridge than they would have had in the fast food district, plus all of the Kenton County and Boone County TANK routes ran right next to the buildings, whereas the fast food district is only served by a few buses.  Corporex would not have been able to finance the Rivercenter development if banks and investors didn't believe it was a viable location for Class A office space.    

33 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Madison is where DT Covington has always been centered.  It's where the courthouse is because it's directly opposite DT Cincinnati.  When they were built, Rivercenter I & II had better access to I-71 and I-75 at the south end of the suspension bridge than they would have had in the fast food district, plus all of the Kenton County and Boone County TANK routes ran right next to the buildings, whereas the fast food district is only served by a few buses.  Corporex would not have been able to finance the Rivercenter development if banks and investors didn't believe it was a viable location for Class A office space.    

 

You realize it takes exactly 2 minutes to get from 4th and Madison to I-75 now, right? Your theory doesn't even make sense, because DT Covington STILL has good highway access. And there's about to be a HUGE chunk of land ready for redevelopment near I-75. Not to mention all the development that is possible in the fast food district. 

Since the suspension bridge is owned by Kentucky, I don't see how its deteriorating condition and inability to support large buses is in any way Cincinnati's fault.  

13 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

You realize it takes exactly 2 minutes to get from 4th and Madison to I-75 now, right? Your theory doesn't even make sense, because DT Covington STILL has good highway access. And there's about to be a HUGE chunk of land ready for redevelopment near I-75. Not to mention all the development that is possible in the fast food district. 

There's no point in arguing with him and his dumb conspiracies.  

It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owners don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

Edited November 26, 20195 yr by ucgrady

1 minute ago, ucgrady said:

It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owner's don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

 

Also of note regarding the power brokers role at the Banks is back in 2007 they objected to zoning at the development that would have allowed 20+ story towers in the development. 

  

On 8/30/2007 at 5:40 PM, UncleRando said:

Downtown forces line up in opposition to Banks plan

BY DAN MONK | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

August 30, 2007

 

DOWNTOWN - Downtown's biggest office developers are gearing up to fight the proposed Banks riverfront development project, arguing a massive increase in densities and building heights could harm the downtown office market.

 

"This type of subsidized development for 30-story buildings would be a great detriment to the Central Business District from a competitive standpoint and would be unfair to all of the local developers who have developed the Central Business District over the years with their own dollars and hard work," said an Aug. 29 letter to Cincinnati's City Council from attorney Joe Trauth, representing the Mayerson family and American Financial Group.

 

Full story text is available by selecting the headline

 

17 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

It's not exactly a conspiracy to say downtown's power brokers and land owners don't want the riverfront to succeed its fullest potential and they definitely don't want Covington/Newport to be well connected or successful either. Less than a week ago Business Courier ran a story titled "Major downtown business owners object to more office space at the Banks". These people are in it for themselves and don't care about the big picture.

I think Blink this year proved that at some point in the not so distant future we will need a new bridge between Covington and Cincinnati. The Roebling has nets to catch falling stone fragments, needs major repair and can't support trucks or large vehicles or even large crowds of pedestrians. 

 

The scenario that used to exist with all of NKY's transit leading to and from Dixie terminal could still basically happen if we utilized the Riverfront transit center in the same way, it would just be two blocks further south. 

 

I'm not saying property owners aren't self-interested. I'm saying this particular theory (kill Covington) doesn't make any sense. First of all, downtown business owners have way more sway in Cincinnati zoning decisions (i.e. what happens at the Banks) than they do in regional transportation decisions. Their biggest voice in those decisions is the regional chamber, which 100% supports expanding transit and improving transportation to better connect the two sides of the river. So exactly the opposite of what Jake is claiming. 

 

And let's be real. We are wayyyyyy better connected than most bi-state regions. Have you tried to walk or drive from Philadelphia to Camden? Or NYC to Jersey City? Those places have way better transit connections for sure, but for the most part they are woefully under-connected. There are only three vehicular bridges from Manhattan to North Jersey and two from Center City Philly to South Jersey. And all of those are highway bridges. We have five from DT Cincy to NKY! And three of them are surface streets. If you live in Hoboken you cannot walk to Manhattan. But if you live in Newport or Covington you have multiple options to walk to downtown Cincinnati.

38 minutes ago, JYP said:

Also of note regarding the power brokers role at the Banks is back in 2007 they objected to zoning at the development that would have allowed 20+ story towers in the development. 

 

Is that objection based on diluting the office market, or (more likely) attempting to protect the views of existing 3rd and 4th Street towers?  Not saying either position is good, but the motivations are different. 

24 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

 

Is that objection based on diluting the office market, or (more likely) attempting to protect the views of existing 3rd and 4th Street towers?  Not saying either position is good, but the motivations are different. 

 

I think at the time it was mainly about views. 3rd street-oriented office buildings enjoyed a commanding view of the river for so long they were afraid their views would be blocked, and their values reduced.

 

Also, there was a huge fight over whether public low-income housing would go on the site. It was never part of the plan but was probably more irrational fear stoked from somewhere.

 

As for Jake's theories, I don't think there was coordination in reducing transit as he eludes to it. Both sides of the river were unfriendly to transit around that time (as evidenced by the MetroMoves vote in 2002). Service times have suffered as a result of having to use the Clay-Wade Baily instead of the Suspension Bridge, but not by much. As stated earlier, using the RTC would improve times and service as some TANK routes already switch from Kenton County oriented routes to Campbell County routes in downtown. The only challenge is that we would need something to connect bus riders from Govt. Square to the RTC. If only there were such a pedestrian circulator...

On 11/25/2019 at 1:09 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

I've always suspected that the Bengals insisted on having their practice field physically adjacent to the stadium so that they could build a new stadium there and ctrl-alt-del Paul Brown.  I doubt that Hamilton County voters will tolerate being taxed for yet another football stadium, especially if the land where Paul Brown is now is given to the team for several blocks of hotel and apartment development.  

 

Developing the existing practice fields seems more palatable to me, although whatever goes there will sort-of be tucked around a corner from downtown.  The team, of course, will demand a new practice field somewhere from the county, which is outrageous but a lot less outrageous than building a new stadium or leaving town.  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Paul+Brown+Stadium/@39.0954471,-84.518698,596m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b14e8e995ab1:0x991715beb84d8bcb!8m2!3d39.0954576!4d-84.5160577

 

 

 

 

This came out in the Enquirer this morning (subscriber only): https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/27/nfl-stadiums-what-should-cincinnati-do-paul-brown-stadium/2142787001/

 

To summarize, the article states that PBS is mid-life and what are the options for the county and team coming up on the 2026 lease expiration. Both sides have hired someone to assess renovation needs and we'll know more in 2020. Scott Wartman, the reporter, reviews potentials options. Build new, have the team leave or renovate. 

 

Key quote regarding Jake's post above though is this:

Quote

New stadiums now come with small villages built around them.

 

The $5 billion SoFi Stadium set to open next year in Inglewood, Calif. will come with 298-acre complex of office buildings, shops and restaurants built around it. Forbes magazine described the future home of the Los Angeles Chargers and Rams as a "real estate project that just so happens to include an NFL stadium."

 

Demolish one or two of the strip mall plaza in Fields Ertel and put the new stadium there. Let Warren County pay for it this time. ODOT just pumped tens of millions of dollars into upgrading that interchange anyway.

 

Here are Fields Ertel and The Banks at the same scale. You can see that a new stadium would easily fit where the Kings Automall or Waterstone Center are.

 

1 hour ago, JYP said:

To summarize, the article states that PBS is mid-life...

 

PBS is "mid-life" and yet The Banks is still not fully built out and what tenants are there, are... well it's hit and miss. 

Yeah the old people and Republicans who live in Warren county aren't going to pay for a new $1 billion+ stadium.  Paul Brown will be renovated because the Bengals have nowhere else to go, and the Browns sure as hell aren't paying to build a new stadium themselves.  Unlike almost every other pro sports owner they don't have any other revenue sources besides the team, so they don't have that much money for an NFL owner.  

2 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

PBS is "mid-life" and yet The Banks is still not fully built out and what tenants are there, are... well it's hit and miss. 

 

RFK stadium is still standing, and it was built 9 years before Riverfront.  It'll probably be demolished in 2020 or 2021, after roughly 70 years in a freeze/thaw climate similar to Cincinnati's.  The thought that Paul Brown (or Riverfront before it) could only physically survive for 30 years (Riverfront was financed with 40 year bonds) was propaganda put forth by team owners and their goons.  I remember when they pretended that the Riverfront stadium garage was damaged by the 1997 flood and the people swallowed it. 

 

The LA Memorial Coliseum is turning 100 in 2021 and the Rose Bowl in 2022.  Sure, those are in Southern California's weatherless climate, but Ohio Stadium and many other northern college football stadiums also date from the 1920s. 

Edited November 27, 20195 yr by jmecklenborg

11 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Yeah the old people and Republicans who live in Warren county aren't going to pay for a new $1 billion+ stadium.

 

I think people turn off their brains when it comes to sportsball. If one of our major league teams threaten to leave, people will insist that their elected officials move heaven and earth to keep them here. Any self-proclaimed fiscal conservatism will go out the window. Especially if NKY also flirts with the team and it starts a battle with Clermont, Warren, or Butler.

Hell, Turner Field in Atlanta wasn't even old enough to drink before the Braves moved out. Globe Life Park for the Texas Rangers was a bit older before they decided to build a new one because they "needed" a roof and air condition. There's probably other examples but those are the first that come to mind. 

 

But as Cincy513 said, Bengals aren't going anywhere and unless they can trick Warren or Butler County to give them $1B they'll be renovating PBS. 

9 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

RFK stadium is still standing, and it was built 9 years before Riverfront.  It'll probably be demolished in 2020 or 2021, after roughly 70 years in a freeze/thaw climate similar to Cincinnati's.  The thought that Paul Brown (or Riverfront before it) could only physically survive was propaganda put forth by team owners and their goons. 

No doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that the entity known as The Bengals view it as "mid-life" and could be looking to leave soon, before the entire development was seen through. Just for the record, I think there's better use for the land. 
 

2 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I think people turn off their brains when it comes to sportsball. If one of our major league teams threaten to leave, people will insist that their elected officials move heaven and earth to keep them here. Any self-proclaimed fiscal conservatism will go out the window. Especially if NKY also flirts with the team and it starts a battle with Clermont, Warren, or Butler.

Normally I'd agree—look at the diverse range of politicians who supported (and opposed) FCC's new stadium—but I don't know if The Bengals could buy the kind of good will they had during their last stadium campaign (even with how bad the team was then). FCC was seen as a few things: a chance to embrace a sport on the rise, something with overwhelming fan support, re-affirmation that Cincinnati was/is a "major league" city, etc. The Reds are beloved, have a history tied to the city that goes well beyond sports, and they're generally good community partners. The Bengals...well...even once they got their new stadium, they've been bad on the field and continually seem to lack any awareness of community relations. It only gets worse ever year. I truly believe that if The Bengals threatened a movie, there'd be some people wanting to keep them, but I don't think they'd be embraced by a majority. 

3 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Hell, Turner Field in Atlanta wasn't even old enough to drink before the Braves moved out. Globe Life Park for the Texas Rangers was a bit older before they decided to build a new one because they "needed" a roof and air condition. There's probably other examples but those are the first that come to mind. 

 

But as Cincy513 said, Bengals aren't going anywhere and unless they can trick Warren or Butler County to give them $1B they'll be renovating PBS. 

 

Turner Field bums me out more than any of them. That stadium was truly great and had some great character/history (not to mention, since it was originally built to hold 100,000 people, all the concourses and areas were wide and never too crowded). Such a shame and sham that the Braves left. Thankfully, Turner still has life. Globe Life Park... I still can't believe that. And the original stadium is staying for the XFL team (until that league folds). 

MEMI's venue at The Banks is now officially known as The Andrew J. Brady Icon Music Center.

3 minutes ago, taestell said:

MEMI's venue at The Banks is now officially known as The Andrew J. Brady Icon Music Center.

 

15 minutes ago, taestell said:

MEMI's venue at The Banks is now officially known as The Andrew J. Brady Icon Music Center.

 

Well...actually... it's the "The Andrew J Brady ICON Music Center" (according to WCPO and Enquirer). I think we are supposed to SHOUT when we reach the "ICON" part of the name.

"The Icon" is a pretty dope name tbh. 

...or a condo tower in Nashville.

On 11/27/2019 at 10:35 AM, Gordon Bombay said:

 

Turner Field bums me out more than any of them. That stadium was truly great and had some great character/history (not to mention, since it was originally built to hold 100,000 people, all the concourses and areas were wide and never too crowded). Such a shame and sham that the Braves left. Thankfully, Turner still has life. Globe Life Park... I still can't believe that. And the original stadium is staying for the XFL team (until that league folds). 

The Georgia State Panthers are using old Turner field as their home stadium.

 

Olympics-> MLB -> Sun Belt Conference Football -> XFL

15 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

...or a condo tower in Nashville.

or a copier business in Cincinnati. It does not get any cooler than being named after a company where you can make photocopies of inanimate objects.

Hypothetically speaking, would the music venue be capable of hosting the NFL draft?

I wouldn't see why not. The Theater at Madison Square seats roughly the same amount of people.

On 1/8/2020 at 9:06 PM, snakebite said:

Hypothetically speaking, would the music venue be capable of hosting the NFL draft?

If we could land a NFL team in Cincinnati that would help our chances.

why not have it in the town that will probably have the #1 pick?

Cincinnati's SkyStar wheel will be replaced

 

The current SkyStar wheel will close on March 2 and be replaced by a new, first-of-its-kind 180-foot high observation wheel about a year later.

 

“We have become part of the Hamilton County community,” said Todd Schneider, managing partner of SkyStar Wheel. “We look forward to being a more permanent fixture at the Banks.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/02/19/cincinnatis-skystar-wheel-will-be-replaced.html

 

I'm disappointed on the 180 feet height.  That would put it 40 feet shorter than the Newport attraction.  When they first pitched the permanent wheel project, the height was to be 200 feet, a far better number.  

Music Venue, Ferris wheel. Coming to the Banks in 2022 New World Class Aquarium.

 

It almost feels that city leaders are just trying to stick it to Newport for beating out the city in the late 90s and early 2000s with NOTL and Aquarium projects.

 

 

Should do an air gondola that goes from lot 28 at the Banks (just south of music venue)  to the new IRS development in Covington. That way you would have a unique attraction that also could serve a transportation function 

Did I miss the announcement about an aquarium?

3 hours ago, brian korte said:

Did I miss the announcement about an aquarium?

 

It was sarcasm...

We need to get a bell 13 feet in diameter at the Banks

4 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

We need to get a bell 13 feet in diameter at the Banks

 

Our ark is maybe 1-10,000th the size of Kentucky's ark.  

4 hours ago, brian korte said:

Did I miss the announcement about an aquarium?

Since we apparently feel we need to do everything Newport does,, why not build our own Aquarium so people dont have to drive across the scary bridges into Kentucky. 

On 2/21/2020 at 3:15 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Since we apparently feel we need to do everything Newport does,, why not build our own Aquarium so people dont have to drive across the scary bridges into Kentucky. 

Oh, now I understand. We absolutely should a build an aquarium. 

1 hour ago, brian korte said:

Oh, now I understand. We absolutely should a build an aquarium. 

I can see it now!

 

Banks developers scouting for restaurant to fill high-profile site

Project aims to capitalize on riverfront music venue

 

Developers at The Banks are in expansion mode again.

 

Nicol Investments and Jeffrey R. Anderson Real Estate are talking with city officials about bringing a new restaurant tenant to what is now a 0.4 acre-parking lot at the corner of Freedom Way and Vine Street, said Banks spokeswoman Tracy Schwegmann. 

 

“We are actively looking to develop that space,” she said. “There’s room for a bit more capacity down there.”

 

Cont

Its about time..and the almost-but-not-quite symmetry of the banks has always been one of my minor annoyances too

57 minutes ago, Cygnus said:

Banks developers scouting for restaurant to fill high-profile site

Project aims to capitalize on riverfront music venue

 

Developers at The Banks are in expansion mode again.

 

Nicol Investments and Jeffrey R. Anderson Real Estate are talking with city officials about bringing a new restaurant tenant to what is now a 0.4 acre-parking lot at the corner of Freedom Way and Vine Street, said Banks spokeswoman Tracy Schwegmann. 

 

“We are actively looking to develop that space,” she said. “There’s room for a bit more capacity down there.”

 

Cont

Nice to see that parcel is going to be developed although I though sky star was going to take that whole section. I know there’s a burger place down there but I would love to see Shake shack open somewhere OTR/Downtown/Banks.

The banks should try and steal one of the popular restaurants from Liberty center, specifically Northstar which is great. I would also like to see a stand alone Shake Shack, but BurgerFi might have something in their lease to block it. Not sure the rumored Giordano's makes sense anymore with pies & pints down the road but I hope something is built there by the time the new Ferris wheel is finished.