Just to be clear-- All the other places at the Banks got just under 5 million in loans to build out.  They all (other than Holy Grail) happen to be national chains.    Mahogany's is not only minority owned, but is also locally and female owned.  And from what I read, the grant is ONLY to be used for walls, bathroom, ceiling, plumbing, etc.  The loan is for moveable fixtures like furniture lighting, etc. 

 

Blacks are still a minority in Cincinnati, not by much, but White is the largest group.

 

Slightly controversial, but not crazy and totally ridiculous.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field.

 

Wow seriously?  I don't know of anybody that has gotten family loans like this.  Judging how you give out loans or grants based on skin color is just wrong no matter how you slice it. 

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

I wish I had relatives who had money to loan. I appreciate your perspective but I believe it is an over generalization.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

yikes, tell me you aren't serious.  even if you were why does government have to provide a level playing field for private businesses?  i just wish the government would force college and professional basketball to create a level playing field for white/Asian/Hispanic people. I may still be playing basketball if that was the case.

A private business shouldn't be given a grant because they are black owners.  If the black community, white community, Asian community, whoever, needs more publicity then go out and earn it like everyone else.

 

Unbelievably narrow spectrum you're staring through there.  Minorities are shockingly underrepresented in avenues that promote attention, like the media for one.  Does the Enquirer even have black writers?

 

Minorities have to work unusually hard for an unequal amount of positive attention.  It's been proven time after time, decade after decade, in nation after nation.

A private business shouldn't be given a grant because they are black owners.  If the black community, white community, Asian community, whoever, needs more publicity then go out and earn it like everyone else.

 

Unbelievably narrow spectrum you're staring through there.  Minorities are shockingly underrepresented in avenues that promote attention, like the media for one.  Does the Enquirer even have black writers?

 

Minorities have to work unusually hard for an unequal amount of positive attention.  It's been proven time after time, decade after decade, in nation after nation.

 

Not sure what positive attention has to do with the City making a bad business deal? I don't get the connection.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field.

 

Wow seriously?  I don't know of anybody that has gotten family loans like this.  Judging how you give out loans or grants based on skin color is just wrong no matter how you slice it. 

 

I do.  When I talk to people about buying their first home, it doesn't surprise me when they say 'when my parents help me with the down payment...' 

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

yikes, tell me you aren't serious.  even if you were why does government have to provide a level playing field for private businesses?  i just wish the government would force college and professional basketball to create a level playing field for white/Asian/Hispanic people. I may still be playing basketball if that was the case.

 

Government has to (and should) provide a level playing field because for decades the government was institutionalizing a non-level playing field.  Today, as a society we have deemed it morally responsible to attempt to level the playing field, resulting in things like MBE inclusion requirements, affirmative action, etc.  These programs are simply a reflection of our societies morals on attempting to equalize the wrongs that have been done in the past.  Hopefully, in 20, 30, 40, etc years these actions and programs won't be necessary but as of today, the very much still are.   

 

 

And from what I read, the grant is ONLY to be used for walls, bathroom, ceiling, plumbing, etc.  The loan is for moveable fixtures like furniture lighting, etc. 

 

 

I think if this is true that the grant is for structural build-out components it could be viewed as an infrastructure investment by the city. God forbid something happens the build-out will create a base that will allow the possibility of another local/small operation to come in with less initial investment in development.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field.

 

Wow seriously?  I don't know of anybody that has gotten family loans like this.  Judging how you give out loans or grants based on skin color is just wrong no matter how you slice it. 

 

I do.  When I talk to people about buying their first home, it doesn't surprise me when they say 'when my parents help me with the down payment...' 

 

And I know a black person that has been helped from their family, so what?  I didn't get any help, should the government help me out?  I guess not since I'm white.  I'm not sure how people think that isn't being racist.  Make decisions and giving advantages to certain people based on the color of their skin is racism and discrimination.

 

Atlas - there is the old saying that two wrongs don't make a right.  As long as the government is still making decisions based on skin color, it isn't going to change.  I'm not saying I'm against equal opportunity but at times I don't believe this is equal opportunity.

 

Sorry, hopefully this is my last post as it's a big off topic, reverse racism just aggravates me.  I'm actually looking forward to Mahogany opening, I just wish it was under better business conditions.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

yikes, tell me you aren't serious.  even if you were why does government have to provide a level playing field for private businesses?  i just wish the government would force college and professional basketball to create a level playing field for white/Asian/Hispanic people. I may still be playing basketball if that was the case.

 

Government has to (and should) provide a level playing field because for decades the government was institutionalizing a non-level playing field.  Today, as a society we have deemed it morally responsible to attempt to level the playing field, resulting in things like MBE inclusion requirements, affirmative action, etc.  These programs are simply a reflection of our societies morals on attempting to equalize the wrongs that have been done in the past.  Hopefully, in 20, 30, 40, etc years these actions and programs won't be necessary but as of today, the very much still are.   

 

 

The government passes all of these laws making it illegal to discriminate based on Race, Ethnicity, Religion, Age, etc. etc., then that same government exempts themselves from the laws that they pass. MBE, AA is not equal or level, it is granting preferred status based on Race and Gender.

This argument is totally bogus by the fact that Toby Kieths got a $5.5 million prime interest loan to build their place and they are a major national company that has significant resources. The City/County loan iOS the third creditor to be paid if the developer fails. The first $40 mill goes to the banks, then another $20 mill somewhere else, then the City.

 

The Banks was becoming primarily national chains since it was very costly for a small local place to build out. The developers were only going after national chains so the City seemed to make a play for increased local participation. Not that extreme.

 

The same arguments of, if it was good it wouldn't need tax money apply equally to all the giant companies we give millions to to keep them downtown. Why is that less controversial?

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

yikes, tell me you aren't serious.  even if you were why does government have to provide a level playing field for private businesses?  i just wish the government would force college and professional basketball to create a level playing field for white/Asian/Hispanic people. I may still be playing basketball if that was the case.

 

Government has to (and should) provide a level playing field because for decades the government was institutionalizing a non-level playing field.  Today, as a society we have deemed it morally responsible to attempt to level the playing field, resulting in things like MBE inclusion requirements, affirmative action, etc.  These programs are simply a reflection of our societies morals on attempting to equalize the wrongs that have been done in the past.  Hopefully, in 20, 30, 40, etc years these actions and programs won't be necessary but as of today, the very much still are.   

 

 

The government passes all of these laws making it illegal to discriminate based on Race, Ethnicity, Religion, Age, etc. etc., then that same government exempts themselves from the laws that they pass. MBE, AA is not equal or level, it is granting preferred status based on Race and Gender.

 

Your opinions are perfect examples of whats wrong with typical Conservative stances.  Yes, at face value, affirmative action and MBE can be seen as 'uneuqal.'  In a black and white world (simple minded Conservative world) this is true.  But the issue is much broader, much more complex (its the real world) than simply 'right or wrong.'  Fact: African Americans and other minority populations are economically unequal to White Americans.  Fact: Our cities are still exceptionally segregated.  These are real problems that have been institutionalized by this country.  It is a good fight and the moral fight to come together as a society and attempt to aleviate these issues. 

This argument is totally bogus by the fact that Toby Kieths got a $5.5 million prime interest loan to build their place and they are a major national company that has significant resources. The City/County loan iOS the third creditor to be paid if the developer fails. The first $40 mill goes to the banks, then another $20 mill somewhere else, then the City.

 

The Banks was becoming primarily national chains since it was very costly for a small local place to build out. The developers were only going after national chains so the City seemed to make a play for increased local participation. Not that extreme.

 

The same arguments of, if it was good it wouldn't need tax money apply equally to all the giant companies we give millions to to keep them downtown. Why is that less controversial?

 

Toby got a loan, not a gift. Mohogany got both a loan and a gift.

Regarding giant corporations you mention......they sometimes get tax incentives, reduced payroll taxes etc. The City doesn't just cut them checks.

The best tax incentives are usually state programs, they are much more lucrative than local incentives. But the city does so stupid stuff like build a call

center for Delta, and now that building is vacant and has been for some time. I guess we are talking about the Banks because it in in the now.

 

 

If you don't have help from family in getting started as an entrepreneur, it is infinitely more difficult. Let's say that you're 30 years old with two kids and a spouse that makes less than $60,000 a year or so and you want to start a business that isn't just cold-calling people from your basement. You're generally going to be working very long hours for little pay for the first few years. Most people that don't have family help are going to have to quit because they can't keep their children alive while simultaneously having no time for them. Or they can't quit their day job, leaving too little time and energy for the business to flourish.

Most white people who start a small business are able to do so with loans from relatives (they also often buy homes/condos with family loans too).  Few black Americans have wealthy relatives.  That's why the government has to provide these financial resources if there is to be anything resembling a level playing field. 

 

yikes, tell me you aren't serious.  even if you were why does government have to provide a level playing field for private businesses?  i just wish the government would force college and professional basketball to create a level playing field for white/Asian/Hispanic people. I may still be playing basketball if that was the case.

 

Government has to (and should) provide a level playing field because for decades the government was institutionalizing a non-level playing field.  Today, as a society we have deemed it morally responsible to attempt to level the playing field, resulting in things like MBE inclusion requirements, affirmative action, etc.  These programs are simply a reflection of our societies morals on attempting to equalize the wrongs that have been done in the past.  Hopefully, in 20, 30, 40, etc years these actions and programs won't be necessary but as of today, the very much still are.   

 

 

The government passes all of these laws making it illegal to discriminate based on Race, Ethnicity, Religion, Age, etc. etc., then that same government exempts themselves from the laws that they pass. MBE, AA is not equal or level, it is granting preferred status based on Race and Gender.

 

Your opinions are perfect examples of whats wrong with typical Conservative stances.  Yes, at face value, affirmative action and MBE can be seen as 'uneuqal.'  In a black and white world (simple minded Conservative world) this is true.  But the issue is much broader, much more complex (its the real world) than simply 'right or wrong.'  Fact: African Americans and other minority populations are economically unequal to White Americans.  Fact: Our cities are still exceptionally segregated.  These are real problems that have been institutionalized by this country.  It is a good fight and the moral fight to come together as a society and attempt to aleviate these issues. 

 

The deal that the City might do at the banks won't help Blacks become more equal economically and it won't desegregate anything. Income is tied to education levels more so than anything, so looking at the behavior associated with valuing education, studying, going to school etc. is the issue. I don't think there is anything wrong with neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly one ethnicity, Harlem, Greektown, Germantown, Little Italy, Chinatown etc. It is what makes America and some cities unique. Minorities do exceptionally well in America, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Afghans/Pakis, Indian etc. All of Dearborn Mi. is Middle East muslim immigrants.

If you really want to see poor people and segregation take a trip through rural America.

>If you don't have help from family in getting started as an entrepreneur, it is infinitely more difficult.

 

The amount of money/assets white baby boomers are poised to inherit from their elderly parents over the next 25 years is staggering.  One figure I read in USA about six months ago was $14 trillion.  I doubt that the entire accumulated wealth of elderly blacks in the United States is greater than $100 billion, with most of that concentrated in just a few hundred hands, with most blacks of the Baby Boomer generation set to inherit absolutely nothing. 

 

 

KyleCincy, of course ethnic neighborhoods are great - when they develop out of a choice rather than by necessity or force.  Overlay a racial distribution map with a median household income map over every American city, and the coorelation between concentrated African American populations and poverty is staggering.  This geographic phenomenon is most pronounced in these populations. 

So the debate here isn't whether or not the city is giving a handout to a business because it is black owned, it's whether or not that's okay? I'm at least glad we're all in agreement on the first part, I felt that was the case but couldn't think of a PC way to say it. 

 

It's still absurd to make a gift like that.  Loans are understandable, be it national chains or local places (Holy Grail is doing excellent, as will Moerlein, I'm sure).  A gift, no matter how you paint it, is wrong, and the fact that race is the motivator behind it is going to upset a lot of people.

Guys give it a rest. 600k will not make or break the city.

^^ Locally-owned is another major aspect, in contrast with the majority of Banks tenants. (As OCtoCincy pointed out.)

 

It's bizarre to me how some people can own their white privilege with no sense whatsoever that it should be corrected.

 

As was also noted, the grant is for permanent parts of the building. If Mahogany folds, the money will still essentially be there for the next business.

Fear of the majority being wronged by its own apologies used in practice in 2012 is troubling and rearing its ugly head on this thread.  There is so much evidence of a discriminatory world both present and recent past that this should never have evolved into a debate on a forum where probably 90% of posters have completed 2 years of university.

^True well at least they have not talked about the section 8 part of the Banks yet(lately). Kinda swept under the rug. lol

Guys give it a rest. 600k will not make or break the city.

 

The way I see it, the city is paying for their kitchen equipment.  If Mahogany's goes under, that equipment will have significant value for the next restaurant.  It doesn't sound good but it was pretty clear that a MBE wasn't going to enter the development anytime soon and a drastic measure was needed. 

The way I see it, the city is paying for their kitchen equipment.  If Mahogany's goes under, that equipment will have significant value for the next restaurant.  It doesn't sound good but it was pretty clear that a MBE wasn't going to enter the development anytime soon and a drastic measure was needed.

 

This is definitely the kicker. There is nothing wrong with the city helping fund infrastructure. As long as the equipment stays with the space then the city has now funded a permanent location at the banks where locally owned, possibly minority owned restaurants can make a go of it. The Banks and the city will be better off for it in the long run. If the city issued a grant to build the space out in advance, then recruited Mahogany's, you probably wouldn't hear a peep off this board.

^^ Locally-owned is another major aspect, in contrast with the majority of Banks tenants. (As OCtoCincy pointed out.)

 

It's bizarre to me how some people can own their white privilege with no sense whatsoever that it should be corrected.

 

As was also noted, the grant is for permanent parts of the building. If Mahogany folds, the money will still essentially be there for the next business.

 

The Holy Grail is doing fine without cash gifts, and is local.  There are plenty of restaurants and businesses up in the Gateway Quarter that are excelling without gifts, and the ownership there is extremely diverse.

 

As for that second paragraph, what's bizarre to me is how some people are so immersed in white guilt that they support the other side of debate, but that is neither here nor there because it's not the reason I am against this handout, nor do I think (hopefully) it is the reason the gift was proposed in the first place.  The city has supplied plenty of infrastructure at the Banks, they shouldn't be buying fryers and ovens.  Calling kitchen equipment an infrastructure investment is a joke.

Fear of the majority being wronged by its own apologies used in practice in 2012 is troubling and rearing its ugly head on this thread.  There is so much evidence of a discriminatory world both present and recent past that this should never have evolved into a debate on a forum where probably 90% of posters have completed 2 years of university.

 

It's a fair debate.  Not ALL whites are wealthy and priviledged, so decent arguments can be made about the gov't overstepping its bounds instead of simply providing an agnostic framework.  It just doesn't belong in The Banks thread.

Calling kitchen equipment an infrastructure investment is a joke.

 

Have you looked inside the Banks retail shells? There are no walls, no floors, no ceilings, no bathrooms, no oven vents. That is infrastructure.

Ahem... so in other news it looks like those awnings are going up for Toby Keith's on 2nd St.

Calling kitchen equipment an infrastructure investment is a joke.

 

Have you looked inside the Banks retail shells? There are no walls, no floors, no ceilings, no bathrooms, no oven vents. That is infrastructure.

 

That's finish out and equipment, not infrastructure; the shell is the infrastructure.  If the restaurant at hand were to fail and someone new took over the space, they'd likely gut the entire interior and start from scratch.  It's even more likely if a national chain were to take over, since it's more efficient on their end to gut and apply their standards then to survey what is existing and decide what to keep and what to demo.  Not to mention kitchen equipment, which is extremely specialized to what types of food are prepared.

 

My point is, this gift pays for finish out that only this restaurant will ever be able to use. That debate should only come up if Mahogany's fails, anyway, which I hope it doesn't - handout or no handout.

The vote was postponed. Unlikely it will come be apart of the Banks.

I love that we give grants out all the time to all kinds of random businesses, non-profits, etc, we basically give 3CDC free money every year ($10 million for homeless shelters) and consider it a good investment. But as soon as its to a minority a few people freak the f*** out.

 

Clearly the two sides are not going to agree on this so lets get the conversation back to something productive.

 

So is it safe to say Mahogany's will not be part of The Banks?  That seemed like the only interesting restaurant to be a part of this project so far.

Ahem... so in other news it looks like those awnings are going up for Toby Keith's on 2nd St.

 

Oh thank baby Jesus! That wall DEFINITELY needed some flair.

The Lager House's interior is amazing. Food was good. The new beers (Exposition, Seven Weiss) aren't yet ready but will be in a week or two.

The Lager House's interior is amazing. Food was good. The new beers (Exposition, Seven Weiss) aren't yet ready but will be in a week or two.

 

I thought I smelled some fresh grains going by there the other day.  I can't wait to try some of the head brewers recipes. I'm not a big fan of CM's beers, though much better than macro brews.

So whats the concept for that Tin Roof place that I saw the sign for?

So whats the concept for that Tin Roof place that I saw the sign for?

 

There is one in lexington, its a country type  bar  with live music. Not sure  if it is the same or not, but i would assume it is.

So whats the concept for that Tin Roof place that I saw the sign for?

 

There is one in lexington, its a country type  bar  with live music. Not sure  if it is the same or not, but i would assume it is.

 

So I am assuming if it is like Lexington, it will do very little to impress.

Ahem... so in other news it looks like those awnings are going up for Toby Keith's on 2nd St.

 

Oh thank baby Jesus! That wall DEFINITELY needed some flair.

 

Those awnings are some serious steel. The wife and I popped in on Friday night but after being told it would be a half hour wait we decided to wait at the Holy Grail.  Didn't take a very good look around but the place seems large and adjustable for what ever events/music they have going on.  Not my type of crowd but glad to see it was packed.

Why does everyone always feel the need to stress that Toby Keith's "isn't their crowd" or "is not the place for them." It's almost like some people feel the need to explain why they're going in there.

 

Seems a little snobbish.

Because, we must distance ourselves from "THOSE PEOPLE".We must never associate ourselves with "THEM",for fear of being lumped with them.The fact that you don't know this raises serious questions about your own place within the herd here at UO. Just accept that they are part of the unwelcome crowd. We will tolerate them in our midst,but we can never have anything in common with them. Don't you know that the sorts of people who frequent these sorts of places are...... mouthbreathers? Anyway,you may think it seems a little snobbish,but thats just the way it has to be, for everyones good.

I actually appreciate those types of comments  It gives me an idea of who is frequenting a place like Toby Keith's.  Seeing half my graduating high school class post facebook pictures of themselves at Toby Keith's also gave me a clear understanding of who is frequenting this bar.  It's the West side.   

^How would you know who frequents it when no description is made? Is it people with cowboy hats?? People dressed casual? People in tee shirts and jeans?

My god. If a punk rock bar opened up and people were making the same comments, would everyone think it was an offense to punkers? Or just maybe that punk isn't their scene?

 

It's a country bar. No wonder a bunch of urbanists do not feel like they fit in. And, by golly, if that's something that jumped out at them while they were there, it should by all means go in their description/review.

Sorry to ruffle any feathers.  I should have been more specific about crowd, the feeling I got was closer to Mynt than a true country bar.  Being from DarkE County I love a good country bar but the amount of spray tan we encountered could have been measured in the gallons.

Aside from the backed property taxes that were bringing the Mahogany's deal into the spotlight, the owners also a $49,000+ federal tax lien:

 

Council members question Mahogany's deal

DOWNTOWN — The owners of a restaurant that’s in line to receive nearly $1 million in City of Cincinnati financing to open at The Banks are facing a federal tax lien in excess of $49,000, according to Butler County records.

 

Liz and Trent Rogers, owners of Hamilton-based Mahogany’s Cafe and Grill, are working to pay off the lien, but the debt has led some Cincinnati City Council members to question the restaurant’s wherewithal to do business downtown.

 

Last Thursday, Cincinnati City Council postponed voting on the financing deal after learning that the Rogers had just paid off a $3,900 delinquent property tax bill one day before. The financing package would have provided Mahogany’s a $684,000 grant to cover the design and construction costs for the 3,520-square-foot restaurant at The Banks, and a $300,000 loan for furniture, equipment and to set up a working capital fund for the restaurant.

 

 

eeeek, that doesn't look so good. yikes.

Smitherman is torn between his roles as NAACP leader and COAST shill. Frankly, it's refreshing just to see him wear a shade of grey for once. Knowing him, he is probably just putting his feelers out to see if he will take too much flak from the NAACP if he goes with his Tea Party instincts.