That really needs to happen. 2nd and 3rd are entirely too large. Crossing them as a pedestrian is not s pleasant experience. Parking on both sides with one side having curb cuts (to allow for the other side to be a rush hour lane) would do wonders. If the south side of 2nd all along The Banks had parked cars it would feel quite different than it does now which is dead.

 

Definitely.  Also, it drives me crazy that there are "no crossing" signs at some of the 2nd street intersections.  The city belongs to the pedestrians; the cars just drive through it.  Wake up, Cincinnati!

 

At least on-street parking on the southern-most lane would make it feel a lot less highway-like.

 

And yes the no-crossing signs around this area are ridiculous.. those need to go. 

When they build the caps over Fort Washington Way, they are going to have to make Second Street and Third Street more pedestrian friendly, right?

 

When they do build those caps, (I hope they will make some nice townhome / apartments on top of them, and not just parkland), and then when the rest of the Banks fills out, it will be a really neat area.  Especially for out of town folks going to games, it will give it a much more neighborhood feel.  It will never be like going into Wrigley, but it will be much better than it is now.

Second and Third were built to each accept one lane of light rail tracks. 

Somewhat off topic, but 23 MLB stadiums have been constructed since 1992.  The Reds themselves have built 2 parks just since 1970.  GABP and PBS are both now over 11 years old and could be through almost a third of the average lifespan of pro stadiums.  The slow pace of development at the Banks has taken that much time just to really get started/move into a second phase.  Does it seem to anyone else that by the time the area is fully developed the Reds/Bengals could be looking to build a new stadium?

 

I'm assuming both teams would have ample opportunity to renovate/expand before that happens but in the ever-increasing world of sports revenues, could this be something to keep in mind going forward?

 

Would be a shame to see all of this new investment just to have one of the teams move away right after it's all 100% complete (including capping FWW).

Since I am not from here I don't know the specifics, but why wasn't Paul Brown Stadium built as a dome structure, similar to Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis?  Think of all the extra revenue it could have created with Final Four games, College Football Bowl Games, and possibly a Super Bowl (Looking at Indianapolis and Minneapolis).

 

Seems short sighted.  I wonder if that was ever looked into?  Though I am certain a domed building would be more expensive, it probably would have been worth it.

Somewhat off topic, but 23 MLB stadiums have been constructed since 1992.  The Reds themselves have built 2 parks just since 1970.  GABP and PBS are both now over 11 years old and could be through almost a third of the average lifespan of pro stadiums.  The slow pace of development at the Banks has taken that much time just to really get started/move into a second phase.  Does it seem to anyone else that by the time the area is fully developed the Reds/Bengals could be looking to build a new stadium?

 

I'm assuming both teams would have ample opportunity to renovate/expand before that happens but in the ever-increasing world of sports revenues, could this be something to keep in mind going forward?

 

Would be a shame to see all of this new investment just to have one of the teams move away right after it's all 100% complete (including capping FWW).

 

 

I'm hoping that these most recent MLB and NFL stadiums have a longer life span than their predecessors. I'm confident that they will indeed last longer as we have seen the oldest ones (i.e. Camden Yards, Progressive Field) undergo big renovations instead of calls for new parks (except for the Braves--I hate them for that). Regardless though, even under the worst case scenario, the riverfront will always be an attractive area moving forward, so it's not like the development will be all for naught. It's not like you guys invested in developments around suburban stadiums out in Butler County or something.

Has anyone heard ANYTHING about The Banks Hotel?  I haven't heard a peep or even a rumor.  I'm just shocked it's been this difficult to get the wheels spinning on this important component, especially with GE moving quickly.

The reason the 1960/70s-era multipurpose stadiums were all replaced was so each team could get a new lease with much more favorable terms.  One of those terms is *not* having another tenant who can act to undermine your ownership. 

I'm hoping that these most recent MLB and NFL stadiums have a longer life span than their predecessors. I'm confident that they will indeed last longer as we have seen the oldest ones (i.e. Camden Yards, Progressive Field) undergo big renovations instead of calls for new parks (except for the Braves--I hate them for that). Regardless though, even under the worst case scenario, the riverfront will always be an attractive area moving forward, so it's not like the development will be all for naught. It's not like you guys invested in developments around suburban stadiums out in Butler County or something.

 

Exactly. Hopefully these stadiums will have a longer life. Every year, millions of dollars of improvements are announced, so it seems like they are committed to keeping them as updated as possible.

 

However, even if one of the two teams decided to move in 20 years or so, I think we will have so much momentum downtown that we will have no trouble redeveloping that site as more residential or office space, essentially as another phase of The Banks.

Has anyone heard ANYTHING about The Banks Hotel?  I haven't heard a peep or even a rumor.  I'm just shocked it's been this difficult to get the wheels spinning on this important component, especially with GE moving quickly.

 

If the hotel and office sites are not developed in the next few months, the developer loses the rights to them. It is quite possible that the developer could just build a spec office building without a tenant in mind, just so they don't lose the rights. That would be harder to do for the hotel site, but possible.

I don't understand why there is such a stubbornness about sticking to the original site plan and mix of uses.  When you look at The Banks so far, the residential aspect has far and away been the most successful component of the development.  Commercial has been tepidly successful, and the office component seems dependent on landing a new, large single user, which is obviously very hard to come by.  GE deals like the one we landed don't come around too often.  The hotel has seen 0 action since the development started.  It's my understanding that the hotel site is hampered by some height restrictions that are making it hard to achieve the desired number of rooms to make a hotel profitable.  Why not make the hotel area residential, and convert the phase one office zone to hotel, where they could build a tall enough structure to reach the required number of rooms? The hotel would have fantastic visibility from the freeway and downtown, and the increase in residential on the south side of the development would help to give the area more of an authentic residential feel.  Seems like a no brainer to me...

I don't understand why there is such a stubbornness about sticking to the original site plan and mix of uses.  When you look at The Banks so far, the residential aspect has far and away been the most successful component of the development.  Commercial has been tepidly successful, and the office component seems dependent on landing a new, large single user, which is obviously very hard to come by.  GE deals like the one we landed don't come around too often.  The hotel has seen 0 action since the development started.  It's my understanding that the hotel site is hampered by some height restrictions that are making it hard to achieve the desired number of rooms to make a hotel profitable.  Why not make the hotel area residential, and convert the phase one office zone to hotel, where they could build a tall enough structure to reach the required number of rooms? The hotel would have fantastic visibility from the freeway and downtown, and the increase in residential on the south side of the development would help to give the area more of an authentic residential feel.  Seems like a no brainer to me...

 

Agree with everything you said.

 

However in a recent development I wonder if Messer is interested in moving to the remaining Banks office site now?

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/01/21/messer-construction-looking-to-move/22109203/

 

"The company wants the new site to have high visibility and easy access from major interstates, easy access to community amenities and services, and be located in a vibrant or improving neighborhood. Also important is safety, having open space for collaboration, and ample parking, according to the statement."

 

Do those tea leaves read like the Banks?

I don't understand why there is such a stubbornness about sticking to the original site plan and mix of uses.  When you look at The Banks so far, the residential aspect has far and away been the most successful component of the development.  Commercial has been tepidly successful, and the office component seems dependent on landing a new, large single user, which is obviously very hard to come by.  GE deals like the one we landed don't come around too often.  The hotel has seen 0 action since the development started.  It's my understanding that the hotel site is hampered by some height restrictions that are making it hard to achieve the desired number of rooms to make a hotel profitable.  Why not make the hotel area residential, and convert the phase one office zone to hotel, where they could build a tall enough structure to reach the required number of rooms? The hotel would have fantastic visibility from the freeway and downtown, and the increase in residential on the south side of the development would help to give the area more of an authentic residential feel.  Seems like a no brainer to me...

 

Agree with everything you said.

 

However in a recent development I wonder if Messer is interested in moving to the remaining Banks office site now?

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/01/21/messer-construction-looking-to-move/22109203/

 

"The company wants the new site to have high visibility and easy access from major interstates, easy access to community amenities and services, and be located in a vibrant or improving neighborhood. Also important is safety, having open space for collaboration, and ample parking, according to the statement."

 

Do those tea leaves read like the Banks?

 

I bet they do Oakley/Hyde Park, Oakley Station. I would not rule out Downtown. The Banks has no available product. GE is taking the entire building, yes?

They will get some sticker shock. Have to think whatever they are leasing now is cheap.

I don't understand why there is such a stubbornness about sticking to the original site plan and mix of uses.  When you look at The Banks so far, the residential aspect has far and away been the most successful component of the development.  Commercial has been tepidly successful, and the office component seems dependent on landing a new, large single user, which is obviously very hard to come by.  GE deals like the one we landed don't come around too often.  The hotel has seen 0 action since the development started.  It's my understanding that the hotel site is hampered by some height restrictions that are making it hard to achieve the desired number of rooms to make a hotel profitable.  Why not make the hotel area residential, and convert the phase one office zone to hotel, where they could build a tall enough structure to reach the required number of rooms? The hotel would have fantastic visibility from the freeway and downtown, and the increase in residential on the south side of the development would help to give the area more of an authentic residential feel.  Seems like a no brainer to me...

 

Agree with everything you said.

 

However in a recent development I wonder if Messer is interested in moving to the remaining Banks office site now?

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/01/21/messer-construction-looking-to-move/22109203/

 

"The company wants the new site to have high visibility and easy access from major interstates, easy access to community amenities and services, and be located in a vibrant or improving neighborhood. Also important is safety, having open space for collaboration, and ample parking, according to the statement."

 

Do those tea leaves read like the Banks?

 

I bet they do Oakley/Hyde Park, Oakley Station. I would not rule out Downtown. The Banks has no available product. GE is taking the entire building, yes?

They will get some sticker shock. Have to think whatever they are leasing now is cheap.

 

It would be a brand new building, but there is an available office pad between the Freedom Center and Great American Ballpark. Good point that Oakley Station is still looking too.

I don't think messer would pay top dollar to be the star tenant in a new office building at The Banks.  Their current two properties are small one-two story buildings in Bond Hill & Pleasant Ridge.  I could see them being a tenant in Oakley though

With the Super Bowl tonight, I was thinking about NFL stadiums (there are 31) and wondering which ones are best connected to their cities.  Here's a <a href="http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/american-football/usa/nfl/">Google Map with all 31 stadiums</a>.

 

The vast majority of the stadiums are built in suburban settings surrounded by surface parking.

 

There are only 12 stadiums that I'd call truly "urban", based on their proximity to downtown, connection to the street grid, being surrounded by high density development, and minimal surface parking.

 

Cincinnati, OH

Atlanta, GA

Baltimore, MD

Charlotte, NC

Chicago, IL

Cleveland, OH

Detroit, MI

Indianapolis, IN

Minneapolis, MN (new Vikings stadium is under construction)

New Orleans, LA

Seattle, WA

St. Louis, MO

 

All of the rest are in suburban locations and/or are completely surrounded by surface parking with no dense development in the immediate vicinity. It's a reminder of how unique The Banks is. I just can't wait for the remaining Phases of The Banks to get filled in.

Pittsburgh? Heinz Field is pretty urban IMO. Arguably, more so than Cleveland.

Yeah, Pittsburgh was right on the border for me. I agree that Pittsburgh's stadium could be considered urban due to its proximity downtown (just across the bridge), but I didn't include it because the sea of surface parking and the highway to its north make it pretty cut off from its surroundings.

 

I've never been there on a gameday... do people walk from downtown to the stadium across the bridge(s)? Where do fans go after the game?

Pittsburgh? Heinz Field is pretty urban IMO. Arguably, more so than Cleveland.

 

Are you really kidding me.  Progressive Field is two blocks from Public Square, a five minute walk from the rapid transit station with an indoor walk way to that station, a 2-5 minute walk from 5 hotels, surrounded by bars and restaurants and multiple housing units and right next door to a 20,000 seat arena.  You can hit the new county office building with a baseball.  What exactly is your definition of urban.

 

Edit:  Stupid me.  I just re-read the original post and realized we are talking football stadiums and not baseball.  First Energy Stadium does not have the amenities I described for Progressive Field but it is right downtown and soon will be surrounded by housing restaurants and offices.  It is right next to a rapid station and 5-7 minutes from Public Square and 5 minute walk from the Flats east bank and numerous hotels (you could throw a football from the new Hilton going up).  again urban

Yeah, Pittsburgh was right on the border for me. I agree that Pittsburgh's stadium could be considered urban due to its proximity downtown (just across the bridge), but I didn't include it because the sea of surface parking and the highway to its north make it pretty cut off from its surroundings.

 

I've never been there on a gameday... do people walk from downtown to the stadium across the bridge(s)? Where do fans go after the game?

 

I would consider th Heinz Field location right downtown and very urban....yes people cross the bridge on game day in droves.

^And there's also a LRT station there as well.

Aren't we due for a winter update video?

Heinz field is a lot like the Banks, in that it was nothing, then it was built and surrounded by parking, and slowly the parking lots are being developed into a mixed use neighborhood. It is an island, but with the North shore connector subway and the ease of crossing bridges in PGH, it is still very well connected to downtown.

 

 

I will say, my old home has one of the most anti-urban baseball stadiums in the country (and 3rd oldest!). It makes the Banks look phenomenal.

 

that Anaheim stadium looks like a photoshop job, where somebody just plopped down an image of a stadium in a sea of a parking lot to see if it would fit. 

Oddly enough, though, there's an Amtrak station basically in one of those parking lots.  I remember taking the train from San Diego to Disneyland for a day trip years ago, and the station we got off at was right in the Angels parking lot.

A few photos of Phase 2 from this morning. The apartments are up to the 5th floor and the GE building is up to the 6th floor.

 

Heinz field is a lot like the Banks, in that it was nothing, then it was built and surrounded by parking, and slowly the parking lots are being developed into a mixed use neighborhood. It is an island, but with the North shore connector subway and the ease of crossing bridges in PGH, it is still very well connected to downtown.

 

 

I will say, my old home has one of the most anti-urban baseball stadiums in the country (and 3rd oldest!). It makes the Banks look phenomenal.

 

 

Dodger Stadium is the 3rd oldest in MLB, Angel Stadium is 4th.  :wink:

Random Question: Will Cincinnati (CBD) have any Tower Cranes up either at The Banks or 4th Street or beyond during the All Star game?  I know it probably doesn't mean much to most, but I just think that when showing our city to the world, seeing Tower Cranes scattered about the city is really a huge indicator of progress.  At least in my nerd mind.  I was just curious if any new projects will be under way by then or if the existing cranes will still be in place...

Probably yes to the Banks, but probably not for 4th and Race.  They will be doing some small scale demolition work (a skywalk, etc) before the start the major demo of the garage.

Probably yes to the Banks, but probably not for 4th and Race.  They will be doing some small scale demolition work (a skywalk, etc) before the start the major demo of the garage.

 

When is the date of demo of the garage. I work across the street from it, I hate looking at that thing.  Can't wait for the rendering, just hope its not boring brown

I don't think there is a date.  They have to come to an agreement with the spa, build the spa a new space, move them out, then tear down the skywalks, probably also the ramps into the street, etc.  Then when all that crap is removed, they would start the actual building demolition.

I was talking to a former Holy Grail employee who told me that the bar did $125,000 in business on Opening Day 2014.  I thought that was impossible until I heard that the place has a capacity of 750 and they set up an outdoor bar on Freedom Way.  So if the place is open from 11am until 2am and is filled to capacity the entire time, that means $11/hr per person.  Definitely possible if you factor in the outdoor bar. 

 

However The Banks is totally dead for about 100 nights out of the year.  I wouldn't be surprised if The Holy Grail does less than $3,000/day for 100 days each year. 

The streetcar, plus the Phase 2 buildings will take the Banks from "this sort of interesting thing that exists down by that nice park and the stadiums"... to something worth going to for many Cincinnatians (not necessarily me though).  I still am not excited by the tenant mix, but having it connected to the streetcar might make me more likely to stop by. 

The addition of nearly 2,000 daily employees and 300 more residential units will do a lot of good for the weekday crowds down there. Lunch time and happy hours should see a solid tick up in business once everything in phase 2 is online.

Something I've wondered as I watch GE and the other phase being built is about elevators.  On the residential, they cast in place the elevator shafts.  On the GE building, I didn't notice that they had done this.  Why the difference, and how will they construct the elevator shafts in the GE building?

With the Super Bowl tonight, I was thinking about NFL stadiums (there are 31) and wondering which ones are best connected to their cities.  Here's a <a href="http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/american-football/usa/nfl/">Google Map with all 31 stadiums</a>.

 

The vast majority of the stadiums are built in suburban settings surrounded by surface parking.

 

There are only 12 stadiums that I'd call truly "urban", based on their proximity to downtown, connection to the street grid, being surrounded by high density development, and minimal surface parking.

 

Cincinnati, OH

Atlanta, GA

Baltimore, MD

Charlotte, NC

Chicago, IL

Cleveland, OH

Detroit, MI

Indianapolis, IN

Minneapolis, MN (new Vikings stadium is under construction)

New Orleans, LA

Seattle, WA

St. Louis, MO

 

All of the rest are in suburban locations and/or are completely surrounded by surface parking with no dense development in the immediate vicinity. It's a reminder of how unique The Banks is. I just can't wait for the remaining Phases of The Banks to get filled in.

 

Soldier Field in Chicago is interesting.  I've been there, and it's kind of oddly situated down the lake from what I think of as "downtown"--more near things like the Planetarium.  I think we walked through the park to get there.  Urban, but not in a right next to what you think of as downtown kind of way. 

Yeah, Pittsburgh was right on the border for me. I agree that Pittsburgh's stadium could be considered urban due to its proximity downtown (just across the bridge), but I didn't include it because the sea of surface parking and the highway to its north make it pretty cut off from its surroundings.

 

I've never been there on a gameday... do people walk from downtown to the stadium across the bridge(s)? Where do fans go after the game?

 

They don't go downtown after the games because there really is nothing downtown besides fast food. Downtown Pittsburgh is dead outside of the business day.

Shot from January 26th with some Smale Riverfront Park construction in the foreground:

 

The "beach" and park are going to look soooooo good this Summer.  Really excited about this part of town.  Also, the new GE building and Banks buildings are really going to add some modern touches to that park of our skyline. 

It's coming together.  When they build the next section south of GE and Banks Phase 2, will the parking garage have any other entry steps to go across the street and onto the park?  I.E., will the steps west of the carousel be the only direct pedestrian access to the riverfront park?  Or do you think in the middle of the future garage they will leave room for another flight of stairs west of the current flight?

They almost need a bridge or something. That's a wide road to be running through the middle of a park and has a decent amount of traffic on it.

What they ought to do are pedestrian activated signals to allow people to cross. Though I've never seen traffic heavy enough to be particularly unsafe. The lanes are, however, overly wide. The should do some bumpouts or something at the crossings to slow traffic.

Didn't they want to do some stuff like that but ODOT wouldn't allow it due to it being a truck route? It's wide, but not wide enough to be problematic. And once they actually get around to planting the street trees in the spots they have set up for them (what the heck have they been waiting for?) it'll feel a lot less open.

That's a good point. I imagine people will naturally drive more slowly through park-like settings. The might also impose a 25 or 30 MPH limit in the Elm to Main section.

The Banks + Incline Village = ?

 

Killer photo!

 

And Hudepohl smokestack!

And Hudepohl smokestack!

 

Pretty incredible that I unintentionally got that in the shot, right between the two elevator shafts. In six months, it will be totally hidden from this angle.

And Hudepohl smokestack!

 

Pretty incredible that I unintentionally got that in the shot, right between the two elevator shafts. In six months, it will be totally hidden from this angle.

 

Is Greg Hardman still trying to move the smokestack to save it from demolition? Where could it be moved to? Do you think it they could move it to the Schmidlap event lawn by the Lager House? I think that would give the Banks a lot more authentic flavor and add a key vertical element.  Or what about in OTR on the lot next to, or across from the tap room? Would that be OK for the historic district or would it clash with the church steeples?