^Wait, $29.3 million for 710 spaces?  That's $40,000 per space!  I mean, I know it's about more than parking - engineered to rise above the floodplain and support construction atop it - but where's the outrage at that taxpayer expense?  It's 1/4 of the cost of the streetcar, and won't do anything to help the neighborhoods!!

Enquirer didn't bother to send a photographer 3 blocks to the ribbon cutting...reporter took iphone photo out of Enquirer office window:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/09/01/banks-infrastructure-development/89711224/

 

Ha!  There's a "Buy Photo" link in case anyone wants to frame that gem.

 

http://cincinnati.mycapture.com/mycapture/enlarge_remote.asp?source=&remoteimageid=18151477

Enquirer didn't bother to send a photographer 3 blocks to the ribbon cutting...reporter took iphone photo out of Enquirer office window:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/09/01/banks-infrastructure-development/89711224/

 

Ha!  There's a "Buy Photo" link in case anyone wants to frame that gem.

 

http://cincinnati.mycapture.com/mycapture/enlarge_remote.asp?source=&remoteimageid=18151477

 

Photo aprons for all!!!!! Tiny fridge magnets for others. Seriously is the ribbon cutting even in that photo or  is it just a 'file' banks photo they use for all Banks stories now to save money on phone memory?

 

 

Enquirer didn't bother to send a photographer 3 blocks to the ribbon cutting...reporter took iphone photo out of Enquirer office window:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/09/01/banks-infrastructure-development/89711224/

 

Ha!  There's a "Buy Photo" link in case anyone wants to frame that gem.

 

http://cincinnati.mycapture.com/mycapture/enlarge_remote.asp?source=&remoteimageid=18151477

 

Photo aprons for all!!!!! Tiny fridge magnets for others. Seriously is the ribbon cutting even in that photo or  is it just a 'file' banks photo they use for all Banks stories now to save money on phone memory?

 

 

 

Someone should have it printed and framed and donated to the Newseum. It says a lot about the state of newspaper journalism in 2016. (This is also the same week that the Enquirer lost their Publisher and we learned that we probably would not be replaced.)

Is it just me or has the hotel construction slowed? I was there over the weekend and expected to see much more progress. And I know it's been lamented before but could they have found a way to NOT build the hotel the EXACT SAME HEIGHT as everything else?

Is it just me or has the hotel construction slowed? I was there over the weekend and expected to see much more progress. And I know it's been lamented before but could they have found a way to NOT build the hotel the EXACT SAME HEIGHT as everything else?

 

They could have found a way

There are definitely situations where every building holding a height line is really great as it sets up a datum. Paris employs this technique all over. Closer to home, Central Park West and Park Avenue in Manhattan have a datum line where buildings will begin to set back and it reads really nicely.

 

But you need a lot more buildings to make that work. In a situation like this you NEED to employ varying height for interest. I'm just hoping that the choice of materials will differentiate it enough that it won't feel like one solid mass of building on the block.

This is a good example of what a consistent cornice line can do.  Sadly the last few infill houses have kind of screwed it up.  You can go consistent in some places or be wild and crazy in others, but it helps to establish the rules first so you don't miss the opportunities that present themselves.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/TrnxQyLDNLF2

Is it just me or has the hotel construction slowed? I was there over the weekend and expected to see much more progress. And I know it's been lamented before but could they have found a way to NOT build the hotel the EXACT SAME HEIGHT as everything else?

 

They could have found a way

 

They could add cinder blocks on top of every other cinder block and make it look like a castle. 

 

With GE opening, the Banks hits ‘incredible milestone’

Sep 19, 2016, 1:30pm EDT

Tom Demeropolis

Senior Staff Reporter

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

This week marks the opening of General Electric Co.’s Global Operations Center at the Banks.

 

The 338,000-square-foot contemporary building, located at 191 Rosa Parks St., will be home to more than 2,000 employees. Dan McCarthy, project executive for Carter, master developer of the Banks, said the addition of GE to the riverfront development helps extend the Central Business District to the Ohio River.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/09/19/with-ge-opening-the-banks-hits-incredible.html

Crane assisted delivery to the AC Hotel causing road closure until Friday:

According to @WineMeDineMe, Crave has closed.

Was Crave just medicore, or is the banks really that difficult of a setting to sustain a successful restaurant?

So one of the biggest problems that usually remains unseen with these types of developments (mega-block projects) is that their retail spaces are built and marketed as gigantic spots. Crave was HUGE. And for no good reason. I liked their food enough, but it was just so uncomfortably large inside. It required a large crowd to not feel awkward and awkwardness leads to people avoiding the restaurant further exacerbating the problem.

 

Small spaces on the other hand can feel "full" and have life to them even if they only have a couple tables filled which works to their advantage. And when there are slow periods it's not as big of a deal because you don't need to light, heat, cool, clean, staff, etc. a humongous space.

 

The Banks would honestly be better off splitting up its retail spaces and market them as smaller spots.

I never looked at Crave and thought "I'd like to go in there and see what they have to offer". I don't know anyone who has talked about or recommended Crave. It never seemed busy, and I'm honestly surprised it was open as long as it was. Holy Grail and Jefferson Social seem to do well. I get the impression that Jimmy John's does good business and will likely see more now that GE has moved in. I think Howl at the Moon and Ruth's Chris could do well, but I don't really know since I don't typically go to these places. Tin Roof looks dead sometimes, and then other times is packed. I imagine it's hard to be an employee there because the drastic differences in crowds that seems unpredictable.

 

I think chains like Giordanos would do really well at The Banks. Something you can get for lunch if you work downtown, go to dinner before a Reds game, and something that is familiar enough to people that they would feel comfortable walking in there. Also, it could really use a coffee shop/breakfast place like Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, or something similar.

^ jmicha hit the nail on the head, regarding size.

 

I'm kinda sad to see this go. It was a cool little place and had something to offer that other places didn't. The interiors seemed to be what appeals to people that frequent the banks as well. A friend of mine said they had the best Sunday brunch he's ever had.

The size issue can be mitigated by having a couple of separate dining areas.  They don't need to be separate rooms per se, but different spaces that are only tangentially connected to each other, allowing the restaurant to feel full even if it isn't, but also allowing more capacity. 

Their food was basically what would happen if you took a typical suburban chain and prepared it with better ingredients with more skilled labor (I don't mean this in a bad way). To me it wasn't the most amazing place I'd ever been, but I never had anything there I didn't enjoy. It was a good place and the interior was cool. The backlit onyx centerpiece was super cool and it definitely is the type of place that I could see working longterm if it was half the size.

I never ate at Crave but always assumed it was about the same quality level and style of food as Yard House. Except that Yard House has a big outdoor patio and a huge number of beers on tap.

^More or less. I'd put them in exactly the same category with Moerlein close, but a step above both those. Too much competition for the exact same market niche in a very small area that is still very much a work in progress.

If The Banks really wants a big hit, they should lure Hofbräuhaus to the other restaurant pad and create a huge biergarten at the base of the Roebling Bridge. I'm sure Hofbräuhaus Newport isn't too happy about the new phase of NOTL blocking their view of the river and they could be lured over with the right deal.

Hmmm, as much as I think that would be great, I also really like Newport and don't want to poach their successful establishments.

 

My personal preference would be for a traditional restaurant of some focus not seen down there on the restaurant pad across from Yard House and the lawn between the two turned into a sort of outdoor cafeteria of sorts. Small stalls, areas for food trucks or food carts to pull up, picnic style tables, a grove of trees above everything for shade, etc. It would make for a unique spot and could be like an outdoor version of Rhinegeist's space only with food instead of beer (but also have beer).

They should definitely break up Craves space into two retail spots.  I'm assuming rent is very high at the banks and there is no reason to have that large of a restaurant.  They did a smart thing taking Toby Keith's gigantic space and making into Howl at the Moon and Splitsville (though a grocery store would have been better). 

Why not take a format that actually works like it does in OTR?

 

Break the spaces into smaller spaces (like abagails, the eagle, etc). Lure in more local restaurateur's/aspiring chefs that want to transition into owning a restaurant, who are from Cincinnati, and that want to establish a new concept (similar to how Ryan Santos is opening up Please on Clay St.)

 

I feel that's what makes OTR food scene so appealing is the lack of name brands, and the variety you get to choose from. Nearly every resturaunt in OTR is successful, and I think that's partially due to the lower rent, but also because of good quality establishments, and these very establishments network with each other (for instance Revolution Rotisserie will feature specials from Sundry and Vice, or Gomez will coincide ties with Half Cut).

 

We need to create a network of local establishments that feed off each other.

 

This whole mentality of, "lets bring in these massive chains that no one really cares about, or you can find in your local strip mall in kenwood or westchester" needs to die.

With a stable population, every new entertainment venue is essentially a zero sum gain. The City has never understood this. You can build four new ice cream stands along the streetcar route, and as soon as the novelty wears off, every ice cream sold is one that isn't being purchased in Kenwood or Hyde Park or Newport. People do not have two ice cream treats because there are more stands.

 

If you are also responsible for Hyde Park, as the City is, you are moving entertainment dollars from one businesses pocket to another. Newport is, on the other hand, a horse of a different color.

 

For my part, I think that expanding entertainment venues ahead of actual demand is a misguided effort, whether the City can steal some business from Newport or not. The Banks is a textbook example of filling a need before it exists.

It's not zero-sum if people spend on something they wouldn't have purchased at all before.  Esoteric things like a pinball bar or a fancy mustache grooming products store aren't competing with Hyde Park or Mason because those things don't exist there.  If anything they're competing with Netflix and online shopping.  Even ice cream isn't necessarily zero-sum either, because not everyone "goes out for ice cream" as a special trip by itself.  That's a very suburban mentality.  The ice cream stand along the streetcar route is for the more impulsive "I'm walking out and about and gee it's kind of warm out here, hey look ice cream!" types.  The only real competition for that is staying home in the air conditioning.  Also, if incomes are improving then it's not zero-sum even if the population is stagnant.  Besides, the suburbs have been zero-summing the city for more than half a century now, and it's bankrupting nearly every level of government through the massive amount of infrastructure and service obligations that comes with dispersing the population.  To bring development back to the city instead of further developing greenfields, even if the population is stagnant, means better utilizing what we already have rather than building new gold-plated infrastructure to the fringes while at the same time losing tax base in the city. 

With a stable population, every new entertainment venue is essentially a zero sum gain. The City has never understood this. You can build four new ice cream stands along the streetcar route, and as soon as the novelty wears off, every ice cream sold is one that isn't being purchased in Kenwood or Hyde Park or Newport. People do not have two ice cream treats because there are more stands.

 

If you are also responsible for Hyde Park, as the City is, you are moving entertainment dollars from one businesses pocket to another. Newport is, on the other hand, a horse of a different color.

 

For my part, I think that expanding entertainment venues ahead of actual demand is a misguided effort, whether the City can steal some business from Newport or not. The

 

Banks is a textbook example of filling a need before it exists.

 

Is it really the city that is not understanding the zero sum game?  I think these businesses are private and not centrally planned.  Yes business owners have to keep that in mind but its one of the cases where the strongest survive.  And while there is a certain truth to the zero sum theory, the government has to choose where to spend to help promiote growth i.e. make it a non zero sum game but a plus game.  Incentivig entertainment districts as part of a strong urban core is a good use of funds IMO.  Unfortunately there will be businesses that dont survive.  But in the end you hope growth is acheived and I think it is being acheived, albeit slowly. 

Urban dwellers are more likely to spend their money on going out to dinner or the barcade or the ice cream shop. Suburbanites are more likely to buy physical possessions to keep in their home. It's a different mentality. Every time I talk to my parents, they always say something like, "Hey, we're getting an new couch, do you want our old one? We're getting new cookware, do you want our old stuff? We're converting your old bedroom to storage, we need you to take the rest of your stuff..." And my parents aren't wealthy. If you have a big house in the suburbs, you want to fill it with stuff and constantly replace old stuff with newer stuff. If you live in the city you have a small apartment and you spend most of your time out doing stuff.

 

Even if the city's population stays relatively stagnant, we will benefit from adding more residents in the urban core. Because when money is spent on entertainment, people are paying sales tax and they're creating jobs for other people that are likely to also live in the metro area. Increasingly, shopping is done online where there is often no sales tax paid, and that money is sent away to another part of the country and overseas where the products are made.

 

I think The Banks is going to struggle until they become a city neighborhood and not just a stadium bar district. Too many of the apartments are getting rented out to people who use them as a hangout during Reds games but don't actually live there. Too many of the businesses are sports bars or are bridge-and-tunnel crowd oriented. That will change with the next phase opening, with GE opening, Radius residents moving in, and Taste of Belgium opening.

Urban dwellers are more likely to spend their money on going out to dinner or the barcade or the ice cream shop. Suburbanites are more likely to buy physical possessions to keep in their home. It's a different mentality. Every time I talk to my parents, they always say something like, "Hey, we're getting an new couch, do you want our old one? We're getting new cookware, do you want our old stuff? We're converting your old bedroom to storage, we need you to take the rest of your stuff..." And my parents aren't wealthy. If you have a big house in the suburbs, you want to fill it with stuff and constantly replace old stuff with newer stuff. If you live in the city you have a small apartment and you spend most of your time out doing stuff.

 

Even if the city's population stays relatively stagnant, we will benefit from adding more residents in the urban core. Because when money is spent on entertainment, people are paying sales tax and they're creating jobs for other people that are likely to also live in the metro area. Increasingly, shopping is done online where there is often no sales tax paid, and that money is sent away to another part of the country and overseas where the products are made.

 

I think The Banks is going to struggle until they become a city neighborhood and not just a stadium bar district. Too many of the apartments are getting rented out to people who use them as a hangout during Reds games but don't actually live there. Too many of the businesses are sports bars or are bridge-and-tunnel crowd oriented. That will change with the next phase opening, with GE opening, Radius residents moving in, and Taste of Belgium opening.

 

Impressive reply, Travis!

Too many of the businesses are sports bars or are bridge-and-tunnel crowd oriented.

 

Had to look that phrase up. Wikipedia FTW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_and_tunnel

 

Ice cream is an extremely dangerous space to be in. You need a constant stream of children in and out of there or you are done in seconds. I'll be in a Dairy Queen and every once in a while might get a small sundae after my sandwich. I'll see these 60-pound children murder two scoops of ice cream in seconds while I, a 200-pound man, will struggle with the one scoop. I never make it. If something like school starting up in the fall takes away even 20% of an urban ice cream location's child traffic (which it actually takes more like 60%) you'll see another hipster bar in the space within 6 months.

^Orange Leaf?

^^You are clearly not an ice cream person. Dairy Queen doesn't even have scoops. :)

 

 

^Orange Leaf?

 

Oh buddy, you wanna talk about some people who lost some money...

^^You are clearly not an ice cream person. Dairy Queen doesn't even have scoops. :)

 

 

 

OK, "scoop equivalent".

I find the lack of a creamy whip downtown disturbing. It would kill at the Banks.

I'm waiting for a hipster bar to take over the St. Bernard Dairy Queen and make minimal changes to the building, a la Queen City Radio.

Graeter's is a client of ours at work, and I talked briefly with a manager after I finished photographing one of the stores.  She said there's definitely a 3:00 rush when kids get out of school, but there's also another around 7:00 when people go out for dessert after dinner.  It sounds like those two rushes carry the business, plus summer weekends.  Candy and baked goods help smooth over the seasonal and hourly variation in ice cream demand, and while there's coffee and morning pastries too their market penetration is fairly small.  Morning stuff is very dependent on convenience, so in the suburbs a lack of parking or drive-throughs can hurt since people want to get in and out fast.  In a more downtown/pedestrian market where people are walking by then it's more about whether you like their offerings since it's easy to just drop in.  A walk-up window next to a streetcar stop, with ice cream in summer, hot chocolate and coffee in winter, would be freaking awesome. 

Graeter's is a client of ours at work, and I talked briefly with a manager after I finished photographing one of the stores.  She said there's definitely a 3:00 rush when kids get out of school, but there's also another around 7:00 when people go out for dessert after dinner.  It sounds like those two rushes carry the business, plus summer weekends.  Candy and baked goods help smooth over the seasonal and hourly variation in ice cream demand, and while there's coffee and morning pastries too their market penetration is fairly small.  Morning stuff is very dependent on convenience, so in the suburbs a lack of parking or drive-throughs can hurt since people want to get in and out fast.  In a more downtown/pedestrian market where people are walking by then it's more about whether you like their offerings since it's easy to just drop in.  A walk-up window next to a streetcar stop, with ice cream in summer, hot chocolate and coffee in winter, would be freaking awesome. 

 

Their Fountain Sq location is ideal for downtown. It caters to the office crowd with morning coffee and pastries, it will also do a good ice cream business with the entertainment on the square and gets Reds/bengals traffic too. It is a better location than the Banks for a place like Graeters

I think a UDF facing the streetcar stop on 2nd could do really well in a subdivided Crave space. They could:

 

-Sell alcohol to Banks residents/hotel guests

-Sell ice cream to families visiting Reds and Smale Park

-Sell coffee and other convenience items to office workers arriving/leaving the Banks neighborhood by streetcar

I think a UDF facing the streetcar stop on 2nd could do really well in a subdivided Crave space. They could:

 

-Sell alcohol to Banks residents/hotel guests

-Sell ice cream to families visiting Reds and Smale Park

-Sell coffee and other convenience items to office workers arriving/leaving the Banks neighborhood by streetcar

 

Also just across the highway from the Linderland on Third St.

 

Where will they put the gas pumps though?

Where will they put the gas pumps though?

 

I agree, pretty sure they won't be interested. 

 

Not sure if most of you are aware, but Kroger has a convenience store division with nearly 800 stores.  I assume they also require gas pumps but maybe they'd be interested?

Wait, does UDF actually require gas pumps? What about places like the Mt. Adams one? Are those just the random exceptions to the rule?

The new Short North one isn't getting pumps but the old one didn't have them either.

Yeah I know for certain the Mt. Adams UDF has no pumps and I am pretty certain there is another one in Cincinnati I've dropped into before with no pumps but can't put my finger on it at the moment where that was

It's not that uncommon. The Lebanon UDF has no pumps. However I can't think of a new location they've opened that was not a gas station. Most of the ones I can think of are older locations.

Both UDF and Kroger prefer building gas stations with their stores now because it drives cross traffic between the store and the gas station. Also gas is a lucrative business. By using the points on a Kroger card towards discounts on gas prices customers are encouraged to buy more from Kroger stores and also buy gas from Kroger gas stations. Its a win win for them and I'm sure its similar for UDF.

Yeah I know for certain the Mt. Adams UDF has no pumps and I am pretty certain there is another one in Cincinnati I've dropped into before with no pumps but can't put my finger on it at the moment where that was

 

You're thinking of the Clifton UDF.

Both UDF and Kroger prefer building gas stations with their stores now because it drives cross traffic between the store and the gas station. Also gas is a lucrative business. By using the points on a Kroger card towards discounts on gas prices customers are encouraged to buy more from Kroger stores and also buy gas from Kroger gas stations. Its a win win for them and I'm sure its similar for UDF.

 

Those are the only reasons to sell gas -- the margin is terrible on it. 3-5 cents a gallon.