Paycor seeks to be positioning to be acquired by a fund or to go public. They will do what's in the best interest of that goal.

Took this picture at lunch, the new AC at the Banks is coming along with most of the exterior sealed up. They have also placed all the steel for the 1 story podium structure that will act as the carport entrance and gathering spaces. Having a building with glazing and hopefully some landscaping and softscape along that edge of Schmidlapp Event lawn will be a huge improvement over the plywood fence that's been there all along.

 

Now if they could just get a tenant for the southwest corner retail spot, it would really help activate that part of the park. I've always thought that space should be allowed to have patio seating out into the sidewalk and lawn south of it and be more of a brunch and lunch bistro kind of spot, which is currently lacking down there except at Taste of Belgium. Something with take-out would also be much needed, because right now GE workers and future hotel guests only really have Jimmy Johns down there.

"Grocery-selling convenience store coming to The Banks"

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2017/01/04/grocery-selling-convenience-store-coming-banks/96164710/

 

It will be in the former Orange Leaf space, so it's going to be a small convenience store (not a "grocery store"). Even still, this will be good for The Banks. It's good to have small convenience stores like this scattered around town. Even if/when a full grocery store opens up downtown, it's nice to be able to simply stop into a convenience store when you only need to grab something simple.

 

Here's the "Street Corner" website: http://www.streetcorner.com/urban-superette-2/

 

 

It will be a nice amenity for the growing number of residents at The Banks.

Santo Graal, the Italian restaurant from the owners of Holy Grail, has closed. It was located in the former Mahogany's space.

Santo Graal, the Italian restaurant from the owners of Holy Grail, has closed. It was located in the former Mahogany's space.

 

That's sad.  They had very mixed reviews, but the one time I went the food and service was excellent.  Always seemed to be pretty empty, though.

I get the impression this restaurant would have done well in OTR, Oakley, or even Northside. But the Banks seems to be a place for bars and chain restaurants.

I am pretty easy to please when it comes to restaurants, but I found Santo Graal to be underwhelming. It surprised me it lasted as long as it did.

Did BurgerFi open yet?

I get the impression this restaurant would have done well in OTR, Oakley, or even Northside. But the Banks seems to be a place for bars and chain restaurants.

 

I don't eat Italian food very often, but when I do, I don't think I'd choose a place that's a spin-off of a sports bar. Sorry if that comes across as snobbish, I just don't understand what niche that place filled.

Did BurgerFi open yet?

 

No, but according to the Business Courier, the Banks mentioned at their press release that it's still coming.

I went there for lunch at work and all I wanted was a slice of pizza to go, I think it just tried to be too serious of a sit down restaurant. If it would have been set up like a walk up style goodfellas/cincy by the slice/ Lucy blues etc it might've worked.

I think some of the Banks struggles retaining businesses stem from the fact that it's a top-down planned development with one or two landlords rather than an organic traditional city neighborhood... in the case of a city neighborhood you have many building types, many owners, different states of repair and thus price points,  and businesses can line up more naturally with the spaces they can succeed in.

 

That's part of the reason I'd like to see future banks phases broken up into several buildings instead of a superblock monolith.

^Footprints vary on Vine Street, but 3CDC and it's affiliates are still basically the only owners for that portion of OTR. And it seems to work well.

 

I think the problem is this: people looking for a unique, hip place with character are going to OTR already. The Banks is better suited for chains (whether large ones like Jimmy John's, or small ones like Giordano's or Blue Ash Chili), the chains are going to thrive at The Banks, and the developer/city need to essentially give up on trying to get one-off restaurants to open at The Banks. People going there often want something dependable and comfortable. They don't want to explore new things. I think the bars can do well as one-offs like Holy Grail, Jefferson Social, etc. But they should try to get reputable chains to move in.

I think some of the Banks struggles retaining businesses stem from the fact that it's a top-down planned development with one or two landlords rather than an organic traditional city neighborhood... in the case of a city neighborhood you have many building types, many owners, different states of repair and thus price points,  and businesses can line up more naturally with the spaces they can succeed in.

 

That's part of the reason I'd like to see future banks phases broken up into several buildings instead of a superblock monolith.

 

Right, it actually can make it tougher for businesses to move around within the neighborhood to rent seek if they feel that they can keep going as a concern if the rent was lower by say $1K a month in an older space.

I know that it's next to the ballpark and all that but I just wish it were a little more diverse than just restaurants and bars. That's pretty much why I feel like it won't ever be more than a tourist attraction that people happen to live at. It would also be cool if it were a retail area with smaller high end stores, if we're going with the whole urban mall kind of style. The buildings looking like boring shit that's already rusting is a big reason that people don't want to hang out there as well.

I think it should just be what it will be. My philosophy of planning is that you just push values and resist micromanagement. They got everything right at the banks that needed to be right: good street grid, green spaces, transit connections. If, economically, it wants to be all chain bars and restaurants right now, who cares? Those spaces can be anything they want to be. This is the whole philosophy behind the form-based code movement. The form matters, the use not so much.

If you try to wedge a store in there that sells "normal" stuff and it fails (which it probably will due to urban spending patterns) the howling from the suburbanites and WLW will be out of control.

I think it should just be what it will be. My philosophy of planning is that you just push values and resist micromanagement. They got everything right at the banks that needed to be right: good street grid, green spaces, transit connections. If, economically, it wants to be all chain bars and restaurants right now, who cares? Those spaces can be anything they want to be. This is the whole philosophy behind the form-based code movement. The form matters, the use not so much.

 

I think you're correct from an urban planning perspective. But there's also the retail planning perspective -- in order for The Banks to be successful you need to get the right mix of businesses in there.

 

Selfishly I want to see an Apple Store open at The Banks so I don't ever have to go to Kenwood again.

Having all restaurants and bars at the Banks doesn't seem the be economically ideal though. The evidence supports it with how many of these places have closed down already. The Banks seems to be one of those places where you can go at a certain time and it's packed, and then another time it's a ghost town. The problem I see is that the economy of The Banks is stagnant early in the day and on days when there aren't many events there. I just think there needs to be more things do to or a greater variety of stores that would attract people there for reasons beyond just entertainment. The people coming to say, The Apple Store, or J Crew or some trendy stores like that, would also probably eat at the restaurants. It's also not a very attractive place to live for a lot of people, and I rarely hear it brought up as an option for people who want to move here. It's an urban neighborhood, but also somewhat isolated from so many amenities that it would difficult to live there without a car. The nearest Kroger is all the way up in OTR, and although it's close to downtown, the highway is a pretty big divider between the CBD and riverfront.

The Banks seems to be one of those places where you can go at a certain time and it's packed, and then another time it's a ghost town.

 

Most retail is like this now except Kroger and Wal-Mart. It's a big change that some business models can survive while others cannot. Used to be people had this phenomenon called "boredom" that made them go places all the time to ease this "boredom". It made them spend a lot more money as well.

The developer will never lower the rent just to fill the place up.  Otherwise there could be a vape shop and other random stuff. 

^H&R Block

^Don't be knocking Vape Shops. They are key components to any retail strip center in Middletown. At least I have seen that first hand.

Well, they also have all of those out-of-control U-turns there. Such a lawless place

Sunday Feb 19, 2017:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man, The Banks is such a bummer. That thing looks worse than a Ramada.

^ Yeah, but you're just dying to get to Pies and Pints. ;-)

To me the building looks straight out of DC. It screams height limit (or in DC's case, Height Act, see all boxes / rectangles in DC)

That area looks much better now with a building in that space.  But I'm not sure how good it's going to look from the Schmidlapp Event Lawn.  You'll still be able to see the plain back side of the part of the building facing Freedom Way. 

That hotel has looked the same for the last couple of months. They must be doing a lot of work inside the building. No chance they are open by Reds opening day which was my hope when they first started construction.

Man, The Banks is such a bummer. That thing looks worse than a Ramada.

It might be a bummer to some of you sit at home architects but its grown to be a very successful area. The bars have been crowded almost every weekend this winter when previous years those were dead months. Moerlein and yard house always have a good lunch, happy hour and dinner crowd. Taste of Belgium and pies and pints seem to be doing very well despite being somewhat isolated from the rest of the area. Even howl at the moon/splitsville has been a huge improvement over Toby Keith's. GE has brought close to two thousand workers to the area every weekday and the hotel will add even more everyday people. They need to get started on the next phase to continue this momentum. Hopefully burgerfi or tiger dumplings or both will be open late night. That's the big thing they're missing with all the bar traffic down there every weekend. Either that or let food trucks park on the street.

Yeah getting at least *some* steady daytime business has no doubt helped these restaurants.  If each is doing just $250 more per weekday ($5,000/mo) due to GE being there it makes a pretty profound difference for businesses that weren't getting almost any lunch business in the past. 

Man, The Banks is such a bummer. That thing looks worse than a Ramada.

It might be a bummer to some of you sit at home architects but its grown to be a very successful area. The bars have been crowded almost every weekend this winter when previous years those were dead months. Moerlein and yard house always have a good lunch, happy hour and dinner crowd. Taste of Belgium and pies and pints seem to be doing very well despite being somewhat isolated from the rest of the area. Even howl at the moon/splitsville has been a huge improvement over Toby Keith's. GE has brought close to two thousand workers to the area every weekday and the hotel will add even more everyday people. They need to get started on the next phase to continue this momentum. Hopefully burgerfi or tiger dumplings or both will be open late night. That's the big thing they're missing with all the bar traffic down there every weekend. Either that or let food trucks park on the street.

 

A lot of these readers are actual architects.  ;)

Man, The Banks is such a bummer. That thing looks worse than a Ramada.

It might be a bummer to some of you sit at home architects but its grown to be a very successful area.

 

I'm actually a, "sit at an office and do my job as an architect" architect and I also think it's a bummer. The area might finally be seeing some financial stability which is awesome, but the architecture is extremely lacking. And it's hurt even further by being directly next to Smale which features incredibly high quality design work.

Originally there were going to be a handful of town homes facing the Schmidlapp event lawn.  I think it's going to be important to sell off at least a few 20-foot wide lots for single-family homes because the whole feel of the place right now is too super-blocky.  Hamiton County could sell off what remains of the "Yard House" block into about 26 20x80 lots.  If they get $250k for each lot that's $6.5 million they can put back into future Banks infrastructure.   

The original concept was to slope down from the office buildings along 2nd Street to mid-rise apartments to low-rise townhomes facing Smale Park, but this was based on an irrational fear of density at The Banks. I don't think it was ever a good idea and I don't believe that very many people would want to live in a townhome located at The Banks. If you want the privacy of a townhome why would you want it plopped in an area where you are surrounded by constant Bengals and Reds games; Smale Park crowds all spring, summer, and fall; and periodic street closures for big events like Oktoberfest? I think we would be much better served by more mid and high rise apartment buildings down there. I don't love the low-rise restaurant pads but I also think it's a reasonable compromise so that the Freedom Center doesn't have their view totally blocked.

Question for Phase 3 (south of the new apartments and GE building.) is it possible that the built footprint of whatever comes next could extend farther south than the parking garage infrastructure that is in place? If a hillside is built in that south lot up against the parking garage, could something be built on top of it? (I know that the garage is to lift the building out of the floodplain)

Question for Phase 3 (south of the new apartments and GE building.) is it possible that the built footprint of whatever comes next could extend farther south than the parking garage infrastructure that is in place? If a hillside is built in that south lot up against the parking garage, could something be built on top of it? (I know that the garage is to lift the building out of the floodplain)

 

My understanding is that that triangular space is intended to be more park space... but I really hope the plan can be modified to use that space for more buildings. Like Travis said, I don't think townhouses make sense at The Banks, but I would love to see some smaller parcels built by separate developers so that we don't just have monolithic full-block developments. A well-designed, triangular building could some much-needed visual interest to the area. Smale is a great park, and we don't need more green space right across Mehring Way. The most important thing for The Banks is to add more density (residents, office).

I would say that the Banks is a success in terms of apartment occupancy. There is a waiting list.

 

For businesses? It's a mixed bag. There have been a lot of spectacular closures (Mahogany's, that one country bar and grille that I can't think the name of) and some quieter exits. GE's entrance will help.

 

Architecturally? It's very generic, partially because of its sheer scale and how it was developed in block-long parcels, and because of the quality of design. It's no Arena District in Columbus, with full brick exteriors and matching windows to give the neighborhood a high-quality appearance. It's more on par with what is going up in Oakley in the land of Big Boxes - the best bang for the buck, with cheap vinyl windows, cheap exterior finishes and cheap interiors. It's no better than Gateway I at Walnut/Central Parkway that has had significant issues with its exterior construction.

The Freedom Center ended up as the centerpiece of the banks by complete accident.  It was just lucky timing -- the concept for a "freedom center" started sometime in the mid-90s at the same time The Banks concept was formulated.  They were the first entity of any kind to express interest in locating there and there was basically no way to not give them the center square since there was no competition.  If the zoo had been looking to do an aquarium or the CAC was interested in a riverfront location one of those might have ended up there instead, and we wouldn't have the lingering idea that it needs a "view" to the river.  As-is that lawn has no purpose and is probably the most valuable piece of easily developable land owned by Hamilton County. 

 

There need to be more owners of buildings in The Banks and some buildings need to be small.  A cockamamie storefront church would be more interesting than anything that is there now. 

I liked the church that was built at Liberty Center - and its mixed use elements. It seems to be better executed than the Banks, although it still has huge blocks. Easton, The Greene, and Liberty Center (along with the downtown Huntington, W.Va. Pullman Square) was all done by Steiner + Associates and I regard their work to be high quality, and I would have loved to have seen their vision for The Banks.

 

I had concerns about the Freedom Center being too big and going all-in when it had essentially no presence in the city prior. My fears came true when the museum floundered but it has since found solid footing by partnering (or being absorbed?) by the Museum Center.

Didn't help that the museum had a racist smear campaign by the enquirer either.  Local Cincinnatians hate the place but non natives highly recommend it.

^Well I don't hesitate to speculate that the smear campaign originated in the fact that the freedom center was handed the single most-valuable piece of property in the region.  When The Banks was being planned 1998-1999, the economy was roaring.  No doubt that developers expected to quickly build whatever they wanted above garages built with public funds and that block was going to be the most valuable block.  But the whole thing failed to launch because of the dot-com bust and 2001 recession.  Hamilton County's sales tax receipts had grown at a 3% clip for decades, then growth suddenly halted.  The stadium debt expected 3% sales tax growth so those obligations ate into everything else.  Since 2000 the sales tax receipts have only grown at an average of 1.5% or something like that (in part because of the low inflation rate), which is why they've never been able to sell the bonds and build all of the garages at once and then put development rights out for bid.  Instead it's been one block every 3-4 years. 

 

The public felt burnt because after all of the hype there wasn't anything down there except the freedom center for 10 years.  If The Banks plan had formulated in the early 90s the whole thing would have been close to completion by the time the recession hit and we entered our current era of ultra-low inflation. 

 

I liked the church that was built at Liberty Center - and its mixed use elements. It seems to be better executed than the Banks, although it still has huge blocks. Easton, The Greene, and Liberty Center (along with the downtown Huntington, W.Va. Pullman Square) was all done by Steiner + Associates and I regard their work to be high quality, and I would have loved to have seen their vision for The Banks.

 

I had concerns about the Freedom Center being too big and going all-in when it had essentially no presence in the city prior. My fears came true when the museum floundered but it has since found solid footing by partnering (or being absorbed?) by the Museum Center.

 

Liberty Center turned out great, larger geographic context notwithstanding.

 

If you're a fan of Steiner, follow this project in Orlando. It's the first one they're doing that fits into the context of a regional master plan, instead of just nice urban design floating in a sprawl void.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2016/05/exclusive-tavistock-signs-town-center-pioneer-for.html

 

 

I remember that one single-thread user in the Liberty Center thread thinking we were complaining about its layout and design. No... we were railing on its remote location as compared to their other work.

^Well I don't hesitate to speculate that the smear campaign originated in the fact that the freedom center was handed the single most-valuable piece of property in the region.  When The Banks was being planned 1998-1999, the economy was roaring.  No doubt that developers expected to quickly build whatever they wanted above garages built with public funds and that block was going to be the most valuable block.  But the whole thing failed to launch because of the dot-com bust and 2001 recession.  Hamilton County's sales tax receipts had grown at a 3% clip for decades, then growth suddenly halted.  The stadium debt expected 3% sales tax growth so those obligations ate into everything else.  Since 2000 the sales tax receipts have only grown at an average of 1.5% or something like that (in part because of the low inflation rate), which is why they've never been able to sell the bonds and build all of the garages at once and then put development rights out for bid.  Instead it's been one block every 3-4 years. 

 

The public felt burnt because after all of the hype there wasn't anything down there except the freedom center for 10 years.  If The Banks plan had formulated in the early 90s the whole thing would have been close to completion by the time the recession hit and we entered our current era of ultra-low inflation. 

 

 

 

Also, a lot of R's hate it when NGOs or the public sector get done first on a project since they feel that the mere presence of those type of orgs that early on will doom any commercial activity that might develop. They aren't completely wrong... shopping centers know that if they want to keep things high-end and browse-oriented (rather than referral-based) they have to keep out the karate dojos, tax offices, dialysis facilities and churches. But now the churches are so big and have such large congregations, tons of money and meet so many times a week that they're not troublesome anymore. Whereas they still don't want the 40-member ones that put up their sign with mailbox letters.

Plus, they all go out and eat after Mass (or etc.) is over. That's a huge bonanza for the restaurants down there - or the nearby Bob Evans.

I was unaware of the nationwide phenomenon of the Wednesday night church group until I worked as a bus boy at Frisch's in high school.  Those people were god-awful.  They'd come in 12-14-16 strong, use a book full of coupons, then leave a $4 tip.  You often get double that driving a calzone and six wings to a stoner. 

 

 

I know the leasing agents at The Banks are trying to avoid chains (i.e., rejecting Starbucks), but they should just give in an add a Cheesecake Factory. It would kill! I'd even stop by on occasion!