January 10, 200718 yr Why even bother complaining about the Bengals stadium anymore. I think everyone will admit it was a bad deal, but it is a done deal!! It has been finished for over 7 years now. It is time to move on. THere is no use in bitching and moaning after the fact about getting screwed. There comes a point to just accept the fact and move on.
January 10, 200718 yr I've said it before, and my position remains the same....when the teams threatened to leave the city unless the stadiums were built, we should have told them "bye bye", and to make sure the door didn't hit them in the butt on the way out. I agree with jmecklenborg - I'll NEVER step foot into either stadium EVER. I am also one who does not agree with negotiating with ANY private entity with taxpayer dollars!! I find it rediculous!!! However to say that you're not going to step foot in either stadium...EVER, is a bit extreme. GABP actually did quite well with its finances...I don't think the Reds should have to pay for the Bengals crapass deals and negotiations.
January 10, 200718 yr I agree the stadium deal for the Bengals was ridiculous, but people who say the city should have just let them leave are not thinking correctly. First of all, having an NFL franchise helps give the city an identity. Second, even though the Bengals have not directly contributed to the city, the secondary contributions are countless. Downtown hotels, bars, restaurants and retail have all benefited directly from having the Bengals in town.
January 10, 200718 yr ^I'm always been curious how much payroll tax the Bengals and Reds generate. That 2.1 tax on those million dollar salaries should generate something. Of course, Mike Brown probably doesn't receive a salary and lives off of a trust. Then when he dies his family is going to bitch and moan about the "death" tax they have pay . . .when he isn't paying anything now.
January 10, 200718 yr Look -- when it comes to pro sports, if a place is going to outlay $1 billion dollars of public money it can be spent in a much in much wiser fashion. Mass transit, small business loans, subsidizing education, redevelopment of industrial areas, emergency preparedness, sewer reconstruction, etc. That sports arenas help encourage entertainment districts is true, but they don't automatically create them. The areas around Madison Square Garden and Yankee Stadium are not big-time entertainment districts. Neither is Comisky Park in Chicago or plenty of other examples. All three have been there for over 50 years. In Cincinnati we actually have fewer bars and restaurants on the riverfront than 10 years ago. >It has been finished for over 7 years now. It is time to move on. THere is no use in bitching and moaning after the fact about getting screwed. There comes a point to just accept the fact and move on. The fans were making life miserable for Brown just a few years ago, with the Mike Brown Step Down campaign, what happened to that? They go 8-8 and suddenly he's an okay guy. People need to vote with their feet and not go to the games (not to mention the outrageous ticket prices), spray paint overpasses, rent billboards listing his perfidies, etc. Also Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and urban darling Portland don't have NFL teams and they seem to be doing just fine. And there are way too many teams in all of the pro leagues, with 30 teams on average each will win only one championship every 30 years and many will go more than 50 years. Back in the Celtics' heyday and when the Yankees won so many championships before WWII there were only like 14 teams in the NBA and major league baseball. I can't invest a bunch of time following teams that have only the slimmest chance of winning a championship before I'm collecting social security. On top of that football tickets are way too expensive. I went to two Titans games this year for free, going to a game down there is so dull I'd rather be waiting in line at the BMV. The highlight is always the exotic cars in the player's parking lot, Pacman Jones has an orange-copper Lamborghini and everyone takes photos of it on their phone through the gaps in the fence. I can't help but smirk at seeing people who just paid $150 to see the game snapping photos of the car their ticket helped buy.
January 10, 200718 yr I think its a little unfair to compare Cincinnati to Las Vegas or Los Angeles to say the least
January 11, 200718 yr from wvxu: The Banks Working Group now must all agree By Maryanne Zeleznik 1/10/2007 1:00:11 PM Any decision from the Banks Working Group will now require a unanimous vote for passage. The Hamilton County Commission amended the original resolution, which had called for a super-majority or four out of five votes. Full story may be available at www.wvxu.org
January 11, 200718 yr ^Well, that's just great. That will guarantee that no controvertial decisions will ever get resolved. Brilliant.
January 11, 200718 yr As part of the 1997 lease the Bengals signed with Hamilton County to play at Paul Brown Stadium, the team has some say over how tall the buildings at the Banks can be and what kind of businesses can be located in the area. This is the thing that totally blows my mind....The Bengals need to cut their strangle hold off of the Banks and let it go the way the developer wishes. I'm not sure why a private entity has ANY control over public property?!?!? Because the county was stupid enough to reach such a deal. And to think, All-American Cities need stadiums to be successful? This is what you get Hamilton County for being so foolish.
January 11, 200718 yr Any decision from the Banks Working Group will now require a unanimous vote for passage. The Hamilton County Commission amended the original resolution, which had called for a super-majority or four out of five votes. Commission President Todd Portune says the change goes along with what Cincinnati Council had asked for original he says it sends a signal from the new commission that it’s willing to work with city council. The commissioners approved the change unanimously. What the hell? They made mistakes in the past with this development, but now its just going down the tubes.
January 11, 200718 yr Banks, jail get attitude changes City, county try cooperation BY KIMBALL PERRY | [email protected] January 11, 2007 CINCINNATI - A new willingness to work together is bringing elected officials from Cincinnati and Hamilton County together, they agree, like never before. "You have to look back decades to find" this kind of cooperation, Cincinnati Council Member Chris Bortz said Wednesday. Two examples surfaced Wednesday. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070111/NEWS01/701110329/1077/COL02
January 11, 200718 yr >Because the county was stupid enough to reach such a deal. The sales tax vote, Issue 1, was in May of 2006, if my memory is correct. I think the tax started on October 1, 1996. Contstruction of the stadium didn't start until around April of 1998. There was already some legal agreement between the Bengals and the county signed sometime in 1995 that promised a new stadium by the 2000 season. You've got to remember, the location of the stadium and lease weren't decided at the time the sales tax was passed, unfortunately with that timetable the county was back on its heels by the end of 1997. The whole situation was aggrivated by the very structure of the Hamilton County Commission...there are only three commissioners. At the time it was John Dowlin, Bob Bedinghaus, and Tom Neyer. I think Neyer was appointed to the position after whoever was there before was elected to state office, and yes, Neyer is from the famous Neyer construction family. Going by memory again, I think he couldn't vote on some matters due to a conflict of interest, Bedinghaus was the spokesman for the whole project. It's fairly obvious now that he was promised diamonds and pearls by the Bengals during "negotiations" and without more people involved there weren't as many people who could have checked his power. In short passing taxes and issuing bonds for a project when a lease hasn't been negotiated and a precise location hasn't been determined sets the statge for disasters like this. THIS is why people need to keep talking about the Bengals lease, so that something like it doesn't happen again. The public trusted the Bengals and they trusted the local government to get this done, and while they did get a pair of stadiums built, specific details of the Bengals lease continue to kill the riverfront redevelopment that could have been there by now. Had the sales tax been .06 cent, it'd be there now. If the Bengals hadn't relocated their practice facility and their new fields were parking, the garages would be there now.
January 11, 200718 yr Had the sales tax been .06 cent, it'd be there now. If the Bengals hadn't relocated their practice facility and their new fields were parking, the garages would be there now. I couldn't agree with your comments more. The powers at be, definately fell for the old smoke and mirrors trick and we have been paying for that ever since. I don't know who in their right mind would think that practice Fball fields are a good use of riverfront property!!! I also don't understand how people project earnings from tax increases like this one. Everyone was caught up in the GREAT economy of the times, when this went through, that no one thought twice about the overzealous projections they had with the .05 cent tax increase. Like you said had this been .06 we might be singing a different tune right now....whats that they say "prepare for the worst, hope for the best". I'm not sure why this isn't the case with these kinds of public funding projects.
January 15, 200718 yr Another bump on road to Banks Union wage fight will add millions to cost Cincinnati Business Courier - January 12, 2007by Dan MonkSenior Staff Reporter A taxpayer lawsuit, filed in June by a local union leader, has advanced far enough that developers are opting to pay so-called prevailing wages on privately funded portions of their developments. That will add 10 percent, or a combined $10 million in construction costs, to the 205 condominium units planned at Parker Flats and One River Plaza. Full story text is available at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/01/15/story1.html?b=1168837200^1401789
January 15, 200718 yr Raise parking fees? Yes, no, maybe Three county leaders, three opinions BY KIMBALL PERRY | [email protected] A seemingly innocuous subject such as parking is showing that there are divergent views on the new three-member Board of Hamilton County commissioners. One commissioner wants rates at county-owned parking lots downtown increased to help pay for the Banks project and stadium deficit. One wants the rates lowered to attract more parkers and - he hopes - raise more money. The third wants more study before deciding. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070115/NEWS01/701150363/1077/COL02
January 15, 200718 yr ^All I know is that Cincy is certainly not alone in this kind of labor agreement. Almost every city that I have dealt with has to work through this same process.
January 15, 200718 yr Isn't it a state law? Im pretty sure it is, but the city's economic development dept. definitely wants the jobs that come into the city to be high-paying. Higher pay=more taxes for the government to collect, plus an overall better quality of life for everyone.
January 15, 200718 yr The whole thing is really a catch 22, there is no good way around it. I wish these union guys would open their eyes and take notice. If they want an example of what can happen, just look north about 4 hours and see what kind of shape the automobile industry is in around Detroit.
January 16, 200718 yr This situation is ridiculous and completely unacceptable. Aside from the minimum wage, which is a social safety net, the state has no place requiring anyone to pay prevailing wages. I think it's time for the prevailing wage law to take a hike.
February 6, 200718 yr The whole situation was aggrivated by the very structure of the Hamilton County Commission...there are only three commissioners. At the time it was John Dowlin, Bob Bedinghaus, and Tom Neyer. I think Neyer was appointed to the position after whoever was there before was elected to state office, and yes, Neyer is from the famous Neyer construction family. Neyer was appointed to replace Guy Gukenberger, who was elected as a Hamilton County Municipal Court Judge, and remains one today. Bedinghaus was the spokesman for the whole project. It's fairly obvious now that he was promised diamonds and pearls by the Bengals during "negotiations" and without more people involved there weren't as many people who could have checked his power. And now he works for the Bengals as Director of Development for Paul Brown Stadium. http://www.bengals.com/team/FrontOffice.asp
February 6, 200718 yr Gee. With all this excitement over streetcars and discussion about OTR redevelopment, I nearly forgot about the banks. (and I'm not kidding).
February 6, 200718 yr I hate having to post this, but someone has to :| Either way I don't think this is as big of a hurdle as the article is conveying, but who knows at this point....lets get this damn thing going please!! New delay possible on Banks BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected] February 5, 2007 CINCINNATI - The long-stalled Banks development on Cincinnati’s central riverfront could be facing a further delay, pushing talks beyond a Feb. 15 deadline established last September. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070205/BIZ01/302050061/1076
February 6, 200718 yr Yup, it sounds odd that a high ranking City official and a high ranking County official are on opposite ends of the spectrum, given that they are now "working together in lock step". Sounds like one party or the other is misinformed, or possibly the article's author.
February 6, 200718 yr Does anyone know what funding source they are trying to get for the garages. Is it a federal grant?
February 6, 200718 yr More of the same.... Funding hurdle delays Banks again By Joe Wessels Post contributor Federal money needed to jumpstart the Banks riverfront project has not been secured, further delaying the long-stalled project. Cincinnati City Council member Chris Bortz said that the Banks Working Group won't be able to sign an agreement with the master developer chosen for the project by a Feb. 15 deadline the group had set months ago because the group hasn't applied yet for $28 million in federal funding for the project. Full story text is available at http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070206/NEWS01/702060345
February 7, 200718 yr I really can't stand Todd Portune! "I think the intent of this is to have the city and the county become more actively involved," Portune said Tuesday. "Both ... have been too hands-off." Wasn't this why the Banks Working Group was created (and for good reason)? :? The use of future parking revenues, now controlled by the county, and proceeds from the sale of city-issued bonds to finance the construction of public garages and streets. "We need to get our arms around it, and we need to resolve it," he said of the issue on which the city and county's past disagreement has prevented the project from moving forward. This has to have been addressed before now! Public hearing for Banks set City, county officials plan to meet Feb. 15 BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected] Elected officials from Cincinnati and Hamilton County plan to meet Feb. 15 to discuss still-unresolved issues related to the proposed Banks development on Cincinnati's central riverfront. Their goal is to quickly resolve issues on which they are now largely in agreement and get the project moving at a faster clip, said Todd Portune, president of the Hamilton County Commission. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070207/BIZ01/702070370/1076/BIZ
February 8, 200718 yr Castellini wants to extend talks on the Banks Cincinnati Business Courier - 11:31 AM EST Wednesday, February 7, 2007 Banks Working Group Chairman Bob Castellini has called a meeting of the group for Feb. 15 where he will recommend extending the deadline for negotiations with preferred developer AIG/Carter for the riverfront development. Full story text is available at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/02/05/daily28.html
February 10, 200718 yr Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why are they paying for this using public money? Shouldn't it be developed by a private contractor? (after all, it IS a development, with residential units to sell, and money to be made).
February 10, 200718 yr Without public money, nothing happens because developers aren't going to do anything unless its profitable. Believe it or not, there's indirect benefits to tax payers though.
February 11, 200718 yr Well, this might be good and/or bad depending on how you look at it. It may speed things up in selecting subcontractors due to the inclusion quotas no longer being legal, but it will definitely cost some minority firms some work. Inclusion confusion In shadow of court ruling, Banks hiring goals murkier Cincinnati Business Courier - February 9, 2007 by Lucy May Senior Staff Reporter Ensuring that minority-owned businesses get a share in building the Banks riverfront development just got tougher. A recent ruling by an Ohio appeals court made clear that any government program that awards contracts based on race or gender would be declared unconstitutional. Lawyers for Hamilton County and the city of Cincinnati fear even a disadvantaged-business enterprise program -- open to all races -- would be struck down. That came as a big disappointment to a committee formed to draft an economic-inclusion policy for the Banks Working Group, the advisory panel overseeing the $600 million riverfront development. Full story text is available at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/02/12/story1.html
February 12, 200718 yr Public funds are necessary to build the garages which are controlled by the county. The buildings will be built on top of the garages which will serve as the foundation. The development does not get the proceeds from the garages. They have not asked for public funds for the buildings themeslves as far as I know.
February 12, 200718 yr They should do what Huntington's Pullman Square developers did: Construct the garages as an "intermodal center."
February 15, 200718 yr Banks public meeting today THE ENQUIRER The Banks Working Group will hold a public meeting at 10:30 a.m. today at the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center to report on the proposed mixed-use development of land between Great American Ball Park and Paul Brown Stadium. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070215/NEWS01/702150352/1056/COL02
February 15, 200718 yr that "parking and street complex" price tag just keeps creeping higher and higher
February 15, 200718 yr >I wish these union guys would open their eyes and take notice. If they want an example of what can happen, just look north about 4 hours and see what kind of shape the automobile industry is in around Detroit. The construction unions are screwing over both cities and universities -- I once was photographing a project at OU and the guy installing those typical accoustic tile ceiling panels told me he was getting $36/hr. That works out to roughly $75-80K pretax. Meanwhile one of my friends who had graduated but was waiting for his girlfriend to get out of there was making $10/hr doing the same kind of work for a contractor. And while Democrats tend to defend unions, these days you need to know somebody -- dad, uncle, friend, or whoever just like in other kinds of business in order to get in. And out in eastern Ohio the contrast between the incomes of union versus non-union contractors is criminal.
February 15, 200718 yr I went to the public meeting, I will post the handouts and my notes later tonight.
February 15, 200718 yr "The Banks Working Group unanimously approved a 90-day extension to negotiate a riverfront development agreement with Atlanta-based AIG/Carter. Working group Chairman Bob Castellini stressed he's optimistic that the group will reach a deal with the developer, adding that AIG/Carter wants to have the residential/retail project under way by fall if a deal can be reached. Full story text is available at http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/02/12/daily35.html?f=et57&hbx=e_du Lets hope they can get the financing for the garages soon.
February 15, 200718 yr Castellini "we are optomisitic" they will not need another extention. Initially the extention was going to be for 60 days, moved it our to 90. Aig carter "has to" break ground by fall, otherwise they are committed to other projects and may not be able to do this job. If so Castellini says there is no back up plan and he and most of the working group will be off the project. It looks like AIG carter or nothing for this group. "all the stakeholders have been cooperative, no intential roadblocks" Apparently AIG/C will be able to show thier master plan w/ building heights and masses. The actually mix of offices and retail. One working group member said 800-1500 new residents, but this may just be for phase I. As to the phases, there are at least two, but they never gave and exact number. They talked a lot about phase I but didn't specifiy which blocks it would be. So far they have in funding: *$3.398 million FTA grant. *$10.4 million OKI surface transportation program grant. *$11 million Fed Highway Admin, for Congestion mitigation air quality. The "hamilton banks intermodal" project is ranked as a tier on project. funds have been obligated. *$2.0 million econ development grant from US Dept Commerce this is matched by 2.4 million from city council *$10 million State infrastructure bank loan for construction of banks intermodal transit center Other funding: *City will give or has secured $10 million for park *AIG CArter will spend at least $10 million for infrastructure Hopeful funding Park- Army Corp of Engineers Banks- TIF funding, possible revenues from garages, and first resdidents. AIG CArter has done market studies to determine the project is viable. One of the group members called it "one of the largest and most complex projects in the country". Include in the 78-84 million for total infrastructure is 19-23 million for the street grid. There will be no quotas for minorities and women owned buisnesses due to a court ruling. Michael Moore, City Architect: we want to have the developemnt embrace the park. a final quote in closing "we've got a hell of a lot of hard work ahead of us".
February 15, 200718 yr Also, Castellini said that they want to break ground by the fall to help get the banks on the market before ovation.
February 16, 200718 yr thomasbw, that was written like you were typing it live ... ;) Thanks for the update, thomasbw!
February 16, 200718 yr Banks deal delayed 3 months BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected] The Banks Working Group, the city-county panel charged with crafting a development plan for Cincinnati's central riverfront, voted Thursday to extend its exclusive talks with an Atlanta developer for up to 90 more days. The extension follows five months of negotiations with the AIG/Carter development team. Full story text is available at http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070216/BIZ01/702160323/1076/BIZ
February 16, 200718 yr I feel like we may be playing with fire...not too sure whether or not this thing will actually be up and going by fall. But I think a fire has definitely been lit under some people's butts now...maybe that is a good sign; I also like to hear that they want this to be ahead of that monstrosity called 'Ovation'...Two huge projects like that will be hard for this region to swallow...its the first one to the finish line that will happen imo.
February 16, 200718 yr thomasbw, that was written like you were typing it live ... ;) Thanks for the update, thomasbw! I like to report in stream of consciousness
February 16, 200718 yr as frustrating as it may or may not be that they have decided to extend the negotiating period three more months, it is obvious that progress is being made. what would be terrible is that by the end of three months the AIG takes off because a suitable arrangement couldnt be reached. I have to believe that this development team of this capacity does not screw around when it comes to delivery. i have a refreshed sense of optimism that things will happen soon. i have fears about the down turn in the housing market but i also feel that a brand new neighborhood such as the banks will create its own demand. i think there are a lot of people out there who want something in the city but are waiting for something to happen on the banks. hopefully.
February 16, 200718 yr This downturn is occurring in overheated markets, for the most part. Hardest hit were places like Phoenix, Las Vegas and Florida, where speculation raised prices for condos and homes through-the-roof. Then you have the flip-floppers, and the whole supply>demand principle. How did Cincinnati-metro fare?
February 16, 200718 yr i have fears about the down turn in the housing market but i also feel that a brand new neighborhood such as the banks will create its own demand. i think there are a lot of people out there who want something in the city but are waiting for something to happen on the banks. I feel the same way about the Banks. It will create its own demand at the expense of other neighborhoods though...hopefully those are neighborhoods out in the 'burbs (i would suspect so, because of the economics involved). So I don't see this project as vunerable to the market downfall right now. Not to mention since Cincy is 20 years behind all of the time...our housing boom is about to get started...suckers! :wink:
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