I have to agree with the commissioners on this one...sounds a bit ridiculous.

 

Freedom Center wants Banks money

BY JESSICA BROWN | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

January 14, 2008

 

DOWNTOWN - The National Underground Railroad Freedom Center wants $1 million from the city and county for development rights to build part of the Banks on some Freedom Center-owned land.

 

The dispute about the price of development rights for the grassy area next to the Freedom Center could throw a wrench into the Banks plans.

 

Banks developers Carter Real Estate and Dawson Co., of Atlanta, plan to build two signature restaurants on the 1.5 acre lot as part of a retail corridor for the proposed Banks riverfront development. Cincinnati and Hamilton County approved that plan in October...

I'm going to be pretty ticked off if this falls through on this technicality. Pretty assholeish of the Freedom Center, if you ask me. Perhaps David Pepper can ask his daddy to relent on this one.

^The thing is that this particular piece of property isn't even within Phase 1 of the project.  So there is plenty of time to strike a deal...plus they can always go forth with everything as planned sans the two restuarants that Carter/Dawson were envisioning for that location.

“They are essentially wanting taxpayers to pay twice for the same piece of property. I’m not going to support that,” DeWine said.

 

 

I would hope not, now that this could be considered blatant public corruption, right in the taxpayers face.

 

Horrible PR on part of the Freedom Center!!!!!!!!  Remenber that when they are asking the city/county to keep them open in '09

“They are essentially wanting taxpayers to pay twice for the same piece of property. I’m not going to support that,” DeWine said.

 

I would hope not, now that this could be considered blatant public corruption, right in the taxpayers face.

 

Horrible PR on part of the Freedom Center!!!!!!!!  Remember that when they are asking the city/county to keep them open in '09

 

It should be noted that the Freedom Center is only asking for the money they had promised to them by the city/state.  They should not be faulted for trying to offset costs at all costs (or should they).  To be honest...I can't really believe that people with the county just forked over this land at no cost.

^The thing is that this particular piece of property isn't even within Phase 1 of the project.  So there is plenty of time to strike a deal...plus they can always go forth with everything as planned sans the two restuarants that Carter/Dawson were envisioning for that location.

 

I guess, I do though think from a landscaping standpoint the lawn from the Freedom Center to Riverfront Park would be rather striking. At the same time though, I think there still would be a reduced lawn between these two structures.

oh boy here we go......

Why does the city do business like this?  They give someone a sweetheart deal and then they act suprised when they are held to the terms of the deal.  If you wanted the development rights to that parcel of land you shouldnt have given them to the Freedom Center.  It is exactly the same situation with the Bengals.  They gave the Bengals an overly sweet deal and as soon as the ink is dry they started to complain that the Bengals' deal is too good. 

 

Its like they have Barry Zuckercorn negotiating their contracts?

^The thing is that this particular piece of property isn't even within Phase 1 of the project.  So there is plenty of time to strike a deal...plus they can always go forth with everything as planned sans the two restuarants that Carter/Dawson were envisioning for that location.

 

I hope you're right, but then what does this mean:

 

"County commissioners have until Jan. 22 to obtain the development rights."

 

What happens on January 22nd that is so special? 

 

I'm with Oakie on this one.  This is one of the worst PR moves I've ever seen.  The Freedom Center is already viewed by many to be existing on public subsidy, and then they go and do this.  Whether or not that perception is accurate I can't say, as I've not gone over their revenue and financing, but the perception exists nonetheless, and they don't need to draw more attention to it with this. 

 

If they really have "long-standing plans to develop it as a park and hold Freedom Center functions there", they would have been much better off displaying those to the public and saying something along the lines of "This is what we've envisioned for this parcel of land, but we're open to negotiation with city/county/developer, and we have the utmost confidence that if the decision is made to go in another direction, we'll be compensated appropriately."  Everyone would have understood that they hold the development rights and should be a part of the decision making process.  But this move makes it look like they're taking an "us against them" position to the local governments and the rest of The Banks development.  And under no circumstances should they have named a price this early.  Terrible PR!

Why does the city do business like this?  They give someone a sweetheart deal and then they act suprised when they are held to the terms of the deal.  If you wanted the development rights to that parcel of land you shouldnt have given them to the Freedom Center.  It is exactly the same situation with the Bengals.  They gave the Bengals an overly sweet deal and as soon as the ink is dry they started to complain that the Bengals' deal is too good.

 

Agreed.

 

Its like they have Barry Zuckercorn negotiating their contracts?

 

LOL!

Why does the city do business like this?  They give someone a sweetheart deal and then they act suprised when they are held to the terms of the deal.  If you wanted the development rights to that parcel of land you shouldnt have given them to the Freedom Center.  It is exactly the same situation with the Bengals.  They gave the Bengals an overly sweet deal and as soon as the ink is dry they started to complain that the Bengals' deal is too good.

 

It should be noted that this was a deal struck by the county...NOT the city.  The county was also responsible for the Bengals negotiations.  And furthermore, at the time these deals were negotiated the county was run by Republicans...you know the ones who are supposed to be the business moguls right?

It should be noted that this was a deal struck by the county...NOT the city.  The county was also responsible for the Bengals negotiations.  And furthermore, at the time these deals were negotiated the county was run by Republicans...you know the ones who are supposed to be the business moguls right?

 

Bureaucracy is bureaucracy.  Democrat... Republican... both parties are just as likely to do something stupid and both put their own best interests first, not the people's.  Anyone who tells you differently is a naive idealist. 

 

It is nice to know that the county, not the city, dropped the ball on this one, though.

At the risk of being accused of stalking, let it be said, that the city wasn't doing ANYTHING constructive towards keeping the Bengals or doing anything to improve downtown.  I don't need to say who was and is in charge of the city. 

At the risk of being accused of stalking, let it be said, that the city wasn't doing ANYTHING constructive towards keeping the Bengals or doing anything to improve downtown.   I don't need to say who was and is in charge of the city.

 

I'm actually starting to find it quite flattering.  The whole reason I brought up the party affiliation is because often these criticisms seem to be subtlely directed towards Democratic leadership.  It always seems to be the city's fault for everything.  Of course it hasn't been the absolutely abysmal leadership we've had at the county and/or state level for the past 10-20 years.

 

As for the city "not doing anything constructive," I would venture to say that Roxanne Qualls would have something to say about that.

Of course she would... so would Charlie Luken. Not discounting your statement, but anyone who has been in charge of city activities would have good things to say regarding progress made while they were in charge.

Qualls during her tenure helped to ensure funding for the International Friendship Park (along the river), jointly assisted with the development of the riverfront development vision, was a co-founder of ArtWorks, oversaw the process of realigning FWW, provided boosts to COP and beat patrols, was the creator of the Zero Tolerance Initiative to combat blight/neighborhood deterioration (recieved the 1999 "Best Practice" award by the US Conference of Mayors), and created an ambassador program to realtors to better "sell" the city and eventually increase homeownership within the city ("Best Practice" award winner as well).

 

I just don't think it is accurate to say that city leadership was, "not doing anything constructive."  I have my opinion and it is based on evidence that I feel warrants this opinion.  Tell me I'm wrong...I'll listen, just bring the facts.

I think the progress made in northern kentucky, and the mud pit on the ohio side says it all.

I think the progress made in northern kentucky, and the mud pit on the ohio side says it all.

 

That has everything to do with the lack of cooperation between City/County leaders and nothing to do with which political party was in power.... except to say that they are/ have been (for the most part) from opposing parties.

^ I am in agreement with you.  There has been a terrible lack of cooperation between city and county.  Enough so, that we have lost out on quite a bit.  Most of the people on this board will want to blame the Republican county leadership, letting the city government off the hook.

I think the progress made in northern kentucky, and the mud pit on the ohio side says it all.

 

Care to elaborate on such "progress" other than Newport on the Levee?  BTW, I'm pretty sure there is a large mudpit on the proposed Ovation site right now...oh a project that is seeing similar struggles that The Banks saw.  That's right...the media doesn't like to make that front-page news now does it.

^ I am in agreement with you.  There has been a terrible lack of cooperation between city and county.  Enough so, that we have lost out on quite a bit.  Most of the people on this board will want to blame the Republican county leadership, letting the city government off the hook.

 

Most of the members of this forum are actually quite reasonable when it comes to this kind of stuff.  Not to mention the mentalities present on this board unfortunately seem to make up a minority of Cincinnati (or least of what is heard).  I think it is refreshing to hear another side of the story from time to time.

 

I too would be the first to congradulate anyone who has done a good job (BTW, Bortz and Ghiz are two of my favorite members on council - both Republicans).  The fact of the matter is that the leadership at the county/state level has been terrible at best over the past 10-20 years.  If you care to refute that then so be it...I just refute the fact that city leadership was equally as bad.

Leadership at the state level have been horrible as the Republican party ran the state unchecked for so many years and they lost touch with their principles. It has yet to be determined if things are going to get better. Strickland has only been in office for a little while so he has yet to truly prove himself, although I will say he is off to a good start on most things.

 

Leadership at the county level is adsurd... always has been and I don't see it getting much better anytime soon. Although cooperation with the city is getting better, they can't seem to prioritize county projects. The county budget and county jail issue is a prime example of this problem.

 

The city leadership is improving. It started when the city moved to a strong major system a couple years ago. It's also improving as we get younger, more energetic people in council. I'm looking for big things from the city in the years to come.

I think the progress made in northern kentucky, and the mud pit on the ohio side says it all.

 

Care to elaborate on such "progress" other than Newport on the Levee?  BTW, I'm pretty sure there is a large mudpit on the proposed Ovation site right now...oh a project that is seeing similar struggles that The Banks saw.  That's right...the media doesn't like to make that front-page news now does it.

 

Covington and Newport have both made tremendous progress and are still in the process of revitalization.  There was virtually no development in these cities (outside of Corporex's corner of Covington) for decades.  Now there are new condos being developed in both cities, Newport is adding a huge shopping center (for good or bad), Covington is developing its "artist's district" and is currently improving its riverfront, Bellevue and Dayton are working on plans of their own, to say nothing of the individual homeowners in the NKY river cities that are restoring the gorgeous historic homes found there.  Yes, Ovation has hit a snag or two recently, but it's a relatively new project and given Newport's recent track record of getting developments started, I'm confident construction will begin sooner rather than later.  If ground still hasn't broken six years from now and the project is on its third developer, I'm quite sure that the local news will be all over it.  The fact that there is a grassy area there now is irrelevent, since the housing project that used to occupy that land was just torn down last year.  This thing can't go up overnight.

The city leadership is improving. It started when the city moved to a strong major system a couple years ago. It's also improving as we get younger, more energetic people in council. I'm looking for big things from the city in the years to come.

 

I totally agree.

 

Oh, and Rando, is Bortz a Republican?  I always thought we was a charterite Democrat.  I don't care what party he is, I really like the guy.  Just didn't know he was a Rep.

progress made in northern kentucky

 

I hope you aren't talking about the empty mall, because we have Newport on the Levee covered with Tower Place.

Maybe if they cut the subsidies for the Underground Railroad Museum they will use their 1 million dollars and then it will close. Then we could get the World Beer Museum in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet that wouldn't have to be subsidized.

 

Just kidding I've been to the museum once and thought it was very well done and very moving, but i don't ever see it being able to generate huge revenues. It belongs in D.C. where there is a huge wealth of these types of museums.

 

I think it's a crock of shit what they (the museum) are doing considering that if the county or city didn't give them huge amounts of money annually they would have been out of business in the first year. I also do believe that somebody really screwed up by just giving them the land. I don't understand the logic there. What were they thinking? Did they forget that the banks project was eventually supposed to be there? Stupid costly mistake. They need to come to some sort of agreement. The city and the county for that matter can't afford to have this project flop.

The Freedom Center will NEVER go belly up...NEVER!  I can't emphasize that enough...it is a Smithsonian Museum and is really the only one of its kind (certainly the largest and best).  The museum will continually bring in elementary/middle school aged students by the droves, and people will always come from across the nation to check it out.

 

Plus once The Banks is done that is going to do tons for its attendance numbers.  Remember...most museums/cultural institutions do not operate in the black.  They rely on the support of donors...and a museum as strong to our nation's history as the Freedom Center will never see that donor pool dry up.  NEVER.

Most museums are not self sustaining. The Ali Museum in downtown Louisville is truely dramatic and a great experience to see, but it relies mostly on donors. If we did not have such museums and replaced them all with commercial ventures or with items that have no relevance to culture, this nation would be much worse off.

 

Coming up next: Proctor and Gamble's Underground Railroad Museum sponsored by Tide

I've always thought that the Freedom Center was in the wrong city.  Oh yes, geographically, it's in the right place.  But for this type of museum to really thrive, it needs to be in a city with huge tourism numbers like Washington, Chicago, or New York.  My reasoning behind this is that the Freedom Center is themed museum.  The Museum Center at Union Terminal is different, in that it is constantly in flux, keeping some things permanently while still bringing in touring national exhibits like the current "Bodies" and the Pirates exhibit before that.  With the Freedom Center, you've basically got the one theme, which obviously is the whole reason for the museum, but it doesn't lend itself very well to multiple visitations by individual museum goers.  So, either Cincy needs to increase its tourism numbers or the Freedom Center needs to broaden its message and add different kinds of large, seasonal, "freedom based" exhibits not necessarily related to slavery, while still retaining its core Underground Railroad theme and staple exhibits.  That, or we need listen to seicer and just understand that it is probably okay for the museum to not be self sustaining.  It's still an honor to have such a fine museum with a wonderful message here on the doorstep of Cincinnati.  And it's a beautiful piece of architecture as well.

 

 

progress made in northern kentucky

 

I hope you aren't talking about the empty mall, because we have Newport on the Levee covered with Tower Place.

 

I think he was referring to our movie theater and multiple grocery stores. :evil:

I think the Freedom Center is in the right city, just in the wrong place!  It should have been in Walnut Hills at the Harriett Beecher Stowe House where she had the inspiration for "Uncle Tom's Cabin".  Imagine how that would have impacted the Walnut Hills neighborhood.

 

http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/places/sw18/index.shtml

 

 

From the Harriett Beecher Stowe Center:

 

In 1832 Harriet moved with her family to Cincinnati, Ohio, where Lyman Beecher became President of Lane Theological Seminary. At that time, Cincinnati was considered the western frontier of the United States. In Cincinnati, Harriet met and married Calvin E. Stowe, a professor at Lane. Six of the Stowes' seven children were born in Cincinnati.

 

Cincinnati was just across the river from Kentucky, a slave state. It was in Cincinnati that Harriet first became aware of the horrors of slavery. Cincinnati was one of the largest cities in the country, twice the size of Hartford at that time. When Harriet and Calvin learned that their servant, Zillah, was actually a runaway slave, Calvin and Henry Ward drove her to the next station on the Underground Railroad. One night, Harriet's friend, Mr. Rankin, saw a young woman run across the river over the ice with a baby in her arms. This story moved Harriet deeply and would later become one of the most famous scenes in Uncle Tom's Cabin.

 

In Cincinnati, Harriet became a member of the Semi-Colon Club, a local literary society in which members wrote articles which were read and discussed by other participants. Her experiences in this club sharpened her writing style. During her early married years, Harriet began to publish stories and magazine articles to supplement the family income. While she lived in Cincinnati, Harriet co-authored a book, Primary Geography for Children. After the publication of this book Harriet received a special commendation from the bishop of Cincinnati because it conveyed a positive image of the Catholic religion. Harriet's religious tolerance was unusual for Protestants at the time.

 

 

I think it would have had about as much impact as the William Howard Taft historical site has had in Mt. Auburn.

I guess I miss the comparison.  As relative historical sites, the 2 may be very similar.  Probably not many people want to visit either the Taft or Stowe sites when they come to Cincinnati. 

 

Add the Freedom Center to the Stowe property, and that changes it to more of a destination.

I think the freedom Center is in the right place. Just because you don't think it should be there isn't a reason!  If you don't know why its there, Then you have something you could learn about history... It would make no sense to have the 'Freedom Center' in washington dc!

^ I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't an historic reason for the Freedom Center to be in Cincinnati.  But I understand BDRUF's assertion that such a museum would be more at home in Washington, because it's a city of museums and monuments, many of which have one dedicated theme, just like the Freedom Center.  There's a Holocaust Museum in DC as well.  Clearly the holocaust didn't occur anywhere near Washington, so it wouldn't have been unprecedented to place the Freedom Center there.  That said, I'm glad they decided to put it here.

Considering the Holocaust wasn't in america, dc was just as good a place as any. Not the same for Freedom Center, or say nascar museum as that is an american experience... 

 

Most museums in dc aren't specific to one place or area... NURFC is specific to one area.

]

Oh, and Rando, is Bortz a Republican?  I always thought we was a charterite Democrat.  I don't care what party he is, I really like the guy.  Just didn't know he was a Republican.

 

He's not.  Charterites are neither Republicans or Democrats, regarding local city elections (the only races in which the Charter Committee endorses candidates) Charterites belong to neither party.

 

The Charter Committee grew out of a municipal reform movement in the 1920s led by anti-machine Republicans.  You can read more about this here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Party_of_Cincinnati%2C_Ohio

Banks hits new snag

County, city upset at Freedom Center's request for $1 million for rights to develop lawn it owns

BY JESSICA BROWN | [email protected]

The National Underground Railroad Freedom Center wants $1 million from the city and county for development rights to build part of The Banks - but local officials are balking.

 

The dispute about the price for the grassy area, directly south of the Freedom Center, could throw a wrench into The Banks plans if it isn't resolved...

 

Staff writer Jane Prendergast contributed.

 

 

Addendum to the above article

 

How city gave land to Freedom Center

2000: Cincinnati gives the Freedom Center property and development rights for the block that the museum is built on, 50 E. Freedom Way. The agreement was amended in 2001.

 

May 2001: Hamilton County enters into an agreement with the Freedom Center (finalized in 2002) under which the county builds the Freedom Center's parking garage and gives the Freedom Center development rights for the block in question, located just south of the museum. The agreement says the land could only be used for a park and when the Freedom Center is ready to build it will transfer the land to the Freedom Center.

 

2002: Freedom Center breaks ground.

August 2004: Freedom Center opens.

Oh, and Rando, is Bortz a Republican?  I always thought we was a charterite Democrat.  I don't care what party he is, I really like the guy.  Just didn't know he was a Republican.

 

He's not.  Charterites are neither Republicans or Democrats, regarding local city elections (the only races in which the Charter Committee endorses candidates) Charterites belong to neither party.

 

In politics outside of the City of Cincinnati races he would be known as a Republican.

The Freedom Center will NEVER go belly up...NEVER!  I can't emphasize that enough...it is a Smithsonian Museum and is really the only one of its kind (certainly the largest and best).

 

At the risk of taking this conversation too far afield, it should be noted that the Freedom Center is not a Smithsonian Museum. It's part of the Smithsonian affiliate program, which means the Smithsonian shares artifacts and know-how, not money. All the Smithsonian museums are in the DC area, except Cooper-Hewitt and Heye Center in NYC. Also, the next Smithsonian Museum is the National Museum of African American History and Culture, so that may reduce any national profile the NURFC has accrued.

^The devil is in the details I guess.

This isn't the end of the world.  There are many win-win situations here.  I propose the following:

 

1)  The land in question isn't essential to the project, so it won't hold up initial construction

2)  If Carter wants it so bad, they can partner with the NURFC on it.  Carter gets development rights for free and gets paid accordingly.  The NURFC then ground-leases the land to the two restaurants (NURFC must sign off on design and the tenants) that are built and splits the profits w/ Carter.

3)  Seems cost-effective and a long-term income generator (rather than the one-time $1M boost) for the NURFC that otherwise wouldn't be there.

 

That took me all of 1 minute to think up.

It isn't the end of the world, but something as trivial as this can still be construed as breach of contract (if what the enquirer says is true), and any breach of contract can be used as an out. Certainly, I hope that does not happen, but it could, it really could.

I've got faith that this will get resolved before it delays any kind of ground-breaking.

Freedom Center to discuss land dispute

BY JENNIFER BAKER | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER

January 18, 2008

 

DOWNTOWN - Officials with National Underground Railroad Freedom Center officials will discuss a land dispute involving The Banks project at a 10 a.m. press conference this morning.

 

Freedom Center CEO Don Murphy will make a statement, said Paul Bernish, chief communications officer for the Freedom Center...

But who would manage Banks?

Portune wants new port authority; Bortz: Get nongovernment manager

BY LUCY MAY | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER

January 18, 2008

 

DOWNTOWN - If developers really get the $74 million they need to move forward on the long-awaited Banks riverfront project and really break ground in March as planned, there's still the question of who will manage the nearly billion-dollar development.

 

A series of agreements approved last year by the Hamilton County Commission and Cincinnati City Council calls for creating a joint city-county Banks Steering Committee that would direct the city manager and county administrator to hire a project executive...

 

Freedom Center to donate land

BY JESSICA BROWN | [email protected]

UPDATED, 10:25 am:

The National Underground Railroad Freedom Center will give up development rights to a disputed piece of land for free. The decision was unanimous by the Freedom Center board, said Don Murphy, Freedom Center CEO. He said the board decided to forgo compensation because it supports the best interest of the community and wants to get the Banks project done.

www.enquirer.com

^Fantastic

That's extremely exciting! Bravo!