Too little too late--gambling is not going to be what it was 10 years ago when every state has a polebarn with slots and a riverboat filled with retired amputees spending away their union annuities.

so, so, wrong.  If Ohio doesn't have it, they will continue to spend it elsewhere.  I'm with MTS, let's move on.

I saw two pro-casino spots on cable news last night asserting that permitting Ohio casinos would bring $1 billion in revenue into Ohio. I assume this $1 billion would be gross revenues flowing in from users, not $1 billion in net profits or $1 billion in new tax revenue.

 

True? Or is it really quantifiable?

^That's how I understood it.  The $1 billion number is supposedly the amount of gambling revenue that is spent by Ohio citizens in other states. 

 

What about the casino opponent ads?  I find the TruthPAC (sp?) spots to be absolutely ridiculous.  They provide no solid argument against the casinos.  Their claim is that Issue 3 WILL NOT create 34,000 jobs - OK, so it will be 19,000 "temporary" construction jobs and 15,000 permanent jobs,  They then claim that there is no provision that states the casinos must hire Ohio citizens.  Yeah, why would we force the casinos to only hire Ohio citizens?  Who the hell does that?  God forbid we actually get people to move to this state!

 

I have seen no solid argument made by any organization against Issue 3. 

Yeah ^ Truth PAC found a bunch of job listings in Atlantic City for jobs at the new Ohio casinos.  They way I see it, the only people who are going to relocate would be management and other higher positions who actually have experience running casinos.  Of course there are going to be positions that require experience, and there probably aren't many Ohio residents who have experience running casinos. 

Many of the dealers in Lawrenceburg and Rising Sun relocated from the Iowa casinos, some also from Vegas.  They will need good dealers to open a new casino.  One can't  learn dealing without practice in a live casino.  Interestingly enough, most of the dealers make minimum wage, and the bulk of their income comes from tips.

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson endorses Issue 3 casino measure

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

September 23, 2009, 5:07PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson, who is seeking a second term in the Nov. 3 election, also wants voters to approve a statewide ballot measure that would allow Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert to develop a casino in Cleveland.

 

MORE AT CLEVELAND.COM http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/09/mayor_frank_jackson_endorses_i.html

Do I think/feel that gambling casinos in Ohio will really help the economy?

 

No, I do not.

 

This is not an economic development issue.  This is a revenue development issue.

 

Which is why state and local governments and unions like the FOP are endorsing it.  The state's economy has augered-in and there isn't enough money to make the various government payrolls, so they see this as a way of getting more money in the coffers via taxes of various sorts..income taxes on the casino workers, property taxes, perhaps variou types of winnings and earnings taxes specific to casinos.  When you hear politicians complain about all the money leaving the state they are seeing this as money that could be taxed.

 

That's why there is a big push on this now. Its a way of making up lost tax revenue due to the economic decline of Ohio.

 

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson endorses Issue 3 casino measure

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

September 23, 2009, 5:07PM

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson, who is seeking a second term in the Nov. 3 election, also wants voters to approve a statewide ballot measure that would allow Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert to develop a casino in Cleveland.

 

 

 

MORE AT CLEVELAND.COM http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/09/us_air_force_airman_shot_in_fa.html

 

 

It looks like the wrong link.

Thanks I fixed my post.

 

Here it is again anyways: http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/09/mayor_frank_jackson_endorses_i.html

Do I think/feel that gambling casinos in Ohio will really help the economy?

 

No, I do not.

 

This is not an economic development issue. This is a revenue development issue.

 

Which is why state and local governments and unions like the FOP are endorsing it. The state's economy has augered-in and there isn't enough money to make the various government payrolls, so they see this as a way of getting more money in the coffers via taxes of various sorts..income taxes on the casino workers, property taxes, perhaps variou types of winnings and earnings taxes specific to casinos. When you hear politicians complain about all the money leaving the state they are seeing this as money that could be taxed.

 

That's why there is a big push on this now. Its a way of making up lost tax revenue due to the economic decline of Ohio.

 

 

 

That's the major reason why I didn't support the ballot issue petitioning, this summer.  I'm not sure how I'll vote on it, but I was quite annoyed that the selling point is how it'll create *so many jobs*.  You're right.  That's absolutely *not* the reason why it's being pushed by the higher-ups.

I will vote against this again. I heard the arguments pro and con over and over and I don't buy the hype behind the pros. This is not economic development and if this is the best we can do, that's pitiful and really average.

 

I just cannot bring myself to believe the gaming industry is all about altruism. Build the economy around socially redeeming things, not things that contribute to social dysfunction, is my motto. Can't we be different than being a copy cat and pawn for the gaming industry? Let's think...do something really different. With all these everywhere (surrounding states) like ABC stores are in Hawaii, do people really think we're going to attract high end gamers with cash to burn? Can't wait to see the Mall-Wart crowd spending their last pennies on penny slot machines.... Gee..some groceries might help at home!

 

I would actually like to be different from all these other places who have jumped on the bandwagon, some acting like this is some sort of cure all, or at least it is often marketed this way. Why do you think this industry target markets places they think are hard up for jobs...think! And Mr. Gilbert.. Please stick to basketball...  With your vision we'd have more parking lots downtown.

 

Sorry....not sold on this...  Never was and never will be. Its just not fooling me. Let's raise our aspirations and find other things that will 'save' us, like tapping into the independent entrepreneurial spirit which seeded the economy in the first place. Time to get back to those roots and grow again. There is no Lone Ranger that will ride in and save the day for us. Its up to us. 

Why can't you see, it's not supposed to be any of the things you claim.  The Walmart crowd that you are putting down, still spend their pennies on the slot machines.  Maybe you can't see it in Cleveland, but here in Cincinnati they are as close as next door.  There is no logical reason to let that money leave the state.  It will cost the state NOTHING to allow casino gambling.

 

I would understand and accept someone saying they will vote against it because they have moral objections to gambling.  I just don't understand your complaints.  Its as if you haven't even read this thread.

I will vote for the passage of Issue 3 just for those reasons.  I am a little concerned that the Casino could have negative effects on surrounding businesses due to its desire to suck people in to spend, not send people outside to eat, shop, etc.  However, I think the casino would just be another draw to downtown Cincinnati, and it's a better use of BC than a parking lot.  That, as well as the fact that Ohio needs to stop the bleeding of money to other states, and could actually make a decent amount of money off this, and it seems like a no brainer to me.

Ohio is really not bleeding money to other states.  The money leaves Ohio and goes through the casinos in, say, Michigan and Indiana, and on to whoever owns the casinos, usually not in Indiana or Michigan. 

 

The only real benefit from this money, beyond local taxes,  is a certain number of service sector jobs the casinos generate.  These benefits are localized to wherever the casinos are located, and are only really signifigant if the location is in a depressed rural area, or if a community becomes a gambling destination with a high concentration of casinos, like, say Tunica.

 

Sorry....not sold on this...  Never was and never will be.

 

Same here.

 

 

 

 

Ohio is really not bleeding money to other states. The money leaves Ohio and goes through the casinos in, say, Michigan and Indiana, and on to whoever owns the casinos, usually not in Indiana or Michigan.

 

The only real benefit from this money, beyond local taxes, is a certain number of service sector jobs the casinos generate.   These benefits are localized to wherever the casinos are located, and are only really signifigant if the location is in a depressed rural area, or if a community becomes a gambling destination with a high concentration of casinos, like, say Tunica.

 

Sorry....not sold on this... Never was and never will be.

 

Same here.

 

 

Ditto.

The only real benefit from this money, beyond local taxes, is a certain number of service sector jobs the casinos generate.   These benefits are localized to wherever the casinos are located, and are only really signifigant if the location is in a depressed rural area, or if a community becomes a gambling destination with a high concentration of casinos, like, say Tunica.

 

You're wrong.  Its not just taxes.

 

http://www.casinoassociation.org/devagreements.php

 

Development Agreements

Above and beyond the required admissions and wagering taxes paid by the Indiana casinos to the State and the host communities, there are the funds paid via the Local Development Agreements (LDA's). The LDA's were negotiated with the host communities, and approved by the Indiana Gaming Commission, as a requirement of initial and continued licensure in Indiana.

 

Summary of Indiana Local Development Agreement Terms

From Crowe Chizek January 15, 2002 Report "Indiana Riverboat Gaming Estimated Fiscal Impacts of Flexible Boarding"

 

Argosy

$115,112,646 in LDA payments;

Water, wastewater, electrical and emergency infrastructure improvements for the City of Lawrenceburg;

5%-14% sliding Scale AGR tax payable to the City of Lawrenceburg;

Improvements to US Route 50 payable to Indiana Department of Transportation

 

Thank you Ohio & Kentucky

 

Lawrenceburg IN Riverfront - 2008 Pop. 4,791

 

Rising Sun IN Riverfront - 2008 Pop. 2,470

^Thanks for posting those.  If this were to go on the Scranton Peninsula in Cleveland, IMAGINE the riverfront potential directly south of Tower City...

You're wrong.  Its not just taxes.

 

Whoop de doo. So its not taxes per se but other payments to these specfic communities in lieu of taxes. 

 

Again, not an economic development issue.  One time infrastructure improvements as condition of operation. Think of it as a very big fee to operate, paid in kind.

 

 

 

Ohio is really not bleeding money to other states. The money leaves Ohio and goes through the casinos in, say, Michigan and Indiana, and on to whoever owns the casinos, usually not in Indiana or Michigan.

 

So you're saying it's not leaving directly to other states, just somewhere else?

 

So how is it not leaving Ohio?

The billions of dollars in earnings from gambling goes to the casinos.  Some percentage is taxed in various ways, some percentage goes to payroll.  The money that is taxed and goes for wages goes to other states. The rest goes to the casino owners to pay for overhead and as profit.

 

So the issue here is the billions of dollars will not be coming "back to Ohio".  What's coming back to Ohio are the taxes/fees paid by casinos and whatever payroll the casinos have.  And the gamblers themselves. So I guess there's that savings on gas and wear and tear on gamblers cars since they dont have to travel so far.

 

 

Another issue is that the benefits of casinos are narrowly focused on the 3-C Circle Jerk (plus a few other places).  If one wants the benefit of returned revenue the opportunity for this benefit should be spread throughout the state.  Or if one really wants to see this as a job generator for depressed areas (like, say Wisconsin Indian reservations), to magnify this benefit,  the casinos should be limited to places like Youngstown, Steubenville, and Appalachian Ohio.

Another issue is that the benefits of casinos are narrowly focused on the 3-C Circle Jerk (plus a few other places). If one wants the benefit of returned revenue the opportunity for this benefit should be spread throughout the state. Or if one really wants to see this as a job generator for depressed areas (like, say Wisconsin Indian reservations), to magnify this benefit, the casinos should be limited to places like Youngstown, Steubenville, and Appalachian Ohio.

 

Yup

Another issue is that the benefits of casinos are narrowly focused on the 3-C Circle Jerk (plus a few other places).  If one wants the benefit of returned revenue the opportunity for this benefit should be spread throughout the state.  Or if one really wants to see this as a job generator for depressed areas (like, say Wisconsin Indian reservations), to magnify this benefit,  the casinos should be limited to places like Youngstown, Steubenville, and Appalachian Ohio.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup

 

It seems some have not had the opportunity to read the actual language of this proposed legislation. This is the section dealing with the dispersal of revenue:

 

(3) The proceeds of the tax on gross casino revenue collected by the state shall be distributed as

follows:

(a) Fifty--one percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed among all eightyeight

counties in proportion to such counties' respective populations at the time of such

distribution. If a county's most populated city. as of the 2000 United States census bureau

census. had a population greater than 80.000. then fifty percent of that county's distribution will

go to said city.

(b) Thirty-four percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed among all eightyeight

counties in proportion to such counties' respective public school district student

populations at the time of such distribution. Each such distribution received by a county shall be

distributed among all public school districts located (in whole or in part) within such county in

proportion to each school district's respective student population who are residents of such

 

county at the time of such distribution to the school districts.. Each public school district shall

determine how its distributions are appropriated. but all distributions shall only be used to

support primary and secondary education.

© Five percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed to the host city where the

casino facility that generated such gross casino revenue is located.

(d) Three percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed to fund the Ohio casino

control commission.

(e) Three percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed to an Ohio state racing

commission fund to support purses. breeding programs. and operations at all existing commercial

horse racetracks permitted as of January 1.2009. However. no funding under this division shall

be distributed to operations of an Ohio commercial horse racetrack if an owner or operator of the

racetrack holds a majority interest in an Ohio casino facility or in an Ohio casino license.

(0 Two percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed to a state law enforcement

training fund to enhance public safety by providing additional training opportunities to the law

enforcement community.

(g) Two percent of the tax on gross casino revenue shall be distributed to a state problem

gambling and addictions fund which shall be used for the treatment of problem gambling and

substance abuse. and related research.

 

The benefits are in fact spread throughout the state.

I've always gotten a kick out of casino revenue going to gambling addiction programs.

Another issue is that the benefits of casinos are narrowly focused on the 3-C Circle Jerk (plus a few other places).  If one wants the benefit of returned revenue the opportunity for this benefit should be spread throughout the state.  Or if one really wants to see this as a job generator for depressed areas (like, say Wisconsin Indian reservations), to magnify this benefit,  the casinos should be limited to places like Youngstown, Steubenville, and Appalachian Ohio.

Yup

 

It seems some have not had the opportunity to read the actual language of this proposed legislation. This is the section dealing with the dispersal of revenue...

 

...The benefits are in fact spread throughout the state.

Yes but...the jobs will still be concentrated around the casino itself. That benefit cannot be distributed.

There isn't a single proposed economic development that will help the whole state.  It's not just the rural and appalachian parts of this state that are hurting.  Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, and to a lesser extent Columbus are all hurting, and could really use these jobs too.  Maybe folks from rural areas could move to the cities to find jobs in these casinos?

The benefits are in fact spread throughout the state.

 

Which is why the local and state political/governmental establishments are supporting this.  It's a new source of revenue.

 

Yes but...the jobs will still be concentrated around the casino itself. That benefit cannot be distributed.

 

This would also be a tax benefit for property taxes and local income taxes, as well as employment.

 

 

 

 

Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, and to a lesser extent Columbus are all hurting, and could really use these jobs too.

 

Based on 2004 numbers the average numbers of jobs per casino:

 

Michigan:  2,524

Illinois:      958

Indiana:    1,737

 

...so you'd be talking about a fairly sizable workforce increase.  Adding one good-sized factory.  For example GM's Moraine plant employed 4,000. 

 

 

 

I've always gotten a kick out of casino revenue going to gambling addiction programs.

 

I think conservatives call that "throwing money at social problems". 

 

This does bring up an interesting issue.  The pitch is to bring gambling in-state since the money is not being taxed in Ohio (plus the jobs argument).

 

The assumption is that there is a fixed amount of gamblers that are in Ohio and they leave the state to gamble ("billions leaving Ohio").  What hasnt been discussed is if the proximity of casinos will increase the pool of gamblers, inducing new customers to try out the casinos and maybe keep coming back. 

 

Would that be economic development?

 

There is a theory that says it would not.

 

The concept is that gambling is a form of entertainment or recreation.  It is like going to bar or going to a movie or going bowling or playing minature golf.  Having a casino nearby adds to the menue of entertainment options, and will drain some money & time from other options.  So you are not adding money to a local economy just re-allocating money within the entertainment/recreation sector.

 

This is already happening in Ohio for gamblers who leave the state.  However if you increase  the pool of gamblers, inducing more Ohioans to gamble and increasing money going to casinos you will reduce the money going to already existing entertainment options in the state or locality.

 

This the zero-sum argument.  That there is a finite amount of discretionary income.  In reality people could just reallocate  their household budgets to spend more on entertainment to to cover adding casino gambling to their menu of recreational/entertainment options.

 

 

 

Here is a breakdown of all of Indy's casinos along with how many they employ.

 

12 casinos with roughly an average of about 1,200 people employed per casino

 

 

http://www.casinoassociation.org/casinofacts.php

 

  "This is the zero-sum argument."

 

  This argument also applies to jobs and taxes. If activity is displaced away from other forms of entertainment, the jobs and taxes go with it.

 

 

 

^

Except that the tax rates for casino are exceptionally high comapred to other forms of entertainment. So the same amount of money is floating around an entertainment sector, but it's taxed higher in the gambling subsector.

 

 

 

    The Ohio Lottery is another form of gambling. Do you suppose the casinos will displace lottery revenue?

 

    The legislation above looks like a lot of thought went into redistribution of tax revenue. 50% of the money allocated to the county will go to the largest city in the county, if it had over 80,000 people in the 2000 census, blah blah blah. I don't know enough about it to figure out who the winners and losers are, but to me it looks like a game of diverting tax revenue from one jurisdiction to another.

 

   

Shameless plug.

 

Poll: Voters backing both slots, casinos in tough job market

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ohio-news/poll-voters-backing-both-slots-casinos-in-tough-job-market-319064.html

 

(...) “I favor anything that will create jobs and produce revenue for the state of Ohio,” said Sano, a long-haul truck driver. “I’m very much for it. I’d love to see a casino in Dayton, in Canton or even southeast Ohio.”

 

Travis Estell, 21, a senior at the University of Cincinnati, agreed with Sano.

 

“I think that the state of Ohio is losing a lot of money to other states with legalized gambling that could be kept here,” Estell said. (...)

Yeah, the DDN did a good job with that article, actually commissioning a survey on the issue.  This is part of their new experiment with more data-driven news reporting.  Interesting that over 80% wouldnt visit or would rarely visit a casino, but still support the concept. 

 

I heard some casino discussion on WLW today, too (didnt hear the hold show).

 

 

Interesting that over 80% wouldnt visit or would rarely visit a casino, but still support the concept.

 

I fall into that category.  I don't see myself ever visiting one of the Ohio casinos, but I'd rather have the people that do gamble spending their money in Ohio instead of Indiana.

I asked my coworker, who regularly goes to Mountaineer, what she thought about gambling in Ohio.  She says she can't decide.  As others have already said in this thread, it would be good to stop the flow of gambling money out of state.  But, on the other hand, our area (Mahoning Valley) will be left out.  She, and everyone she knows, will continue to go to Mountaineer because it remains most convenient.

^

It wont help Dayton either. 

 

For me this issue is like gay marriage is for straight people.  They can't find a rational reason to oppose it but it doesn't seem "right".  It's the same for me for casino gambling.

 

 

In a way this gambling stuff is a lot like homosexuality, the mainstreaming and normalizing what used to be considered immoral or a vice.

 

 

^

It wont help Dayton either. 

 

For me this issue is like gay marriage is for straight people.  They can't find a rational reason to oppose it but it doesn't seem "right".  It's the same for me for casino gambling.

 

 

In a way this gambling stuff is a lot like homosexuality, the mainstreaming and normalizing what used to be considered immoral or a vice.

 

 

 

Watch yourself.

^

It wont help Dayton either.

 

I'd bet that if Cincy got a casino we'd see Daytonites all over the place.

Plenty of Daytonites in Lawrenceburg.  I'm sure they'd be happy to cut 20 minutes from their trip!

Ohio needs to focus on bringing in more companies from high cost of living and wage states like the Northeast California and Florida. That is far better off than having your citizens gamble their life saving.

There is no need for Ohio to focus on the casinos.  Just let them happen.  As to your other point, people are already gambling.

I'd bet that if Cincy got a casino we'd see Daytonites all over the place.

 

I dont think you read what I wrote.  I said these casinos won't help Dayton.

 

For me this issue is like gay marriage is for straight people.  They can't find a rational reason to oppose it but it doesn't seem "right".  It's the same for me for casino gambling.

 

In a way this gambling stuff is a lot like homosexuality, the mainstreaming and normalizing what used to be considered immoral or a vice.

 

Or, it's the idea that people shouldn't be trying to decide what is "moral" for anyone other than him/herself.

^

yeah but people do that all the time.  And in political issues its an aggregate of personal feelings or opinions.  Or something like that.

That's what a society does.  Sets the moral standard.

Ohio needs to focus on bringing in more companies from high cost of living and wage states like the Northeast California and Florida. That is far better off than having your citizens gamble their life saving.

 

This is not an either/or proposition. It is a removal of a legislative roadblock to having casinos and if anything, makes us more attractive to those companies who are looking to relocate out of those other states. If you really want to compete with FLA then first we are going to have to do away with the state income tax.

 

I can't figure out how we as a city (cincy) can complain for years that we have no nightlife yet not be fully behind the one thing that is the ultimate night life generator. This creates jobs, this creates entertainment, this creates opportunity that reaches well beyond the walls of the casino itself.