October 4, 200915 yr Plenty of Daytonites in Lawrenceburg. I'm sure they'd be happy to cut 20 minutes from their trip! Us Daytonites would be much happier to cut 90 minutes from our trip by having a casino here instead :-D
October 4, 200915 yr I would have prefered it in Dayton instead of having it so close to Lawrenceburg.
October 4, 200915 yr "This creates jobs, this creates entertainment, this creates opportunity..." I'm not really so sure about that. Gambling redistributes money, but does not create new wealth.
October 4, 200915 yr 1. There will definetly be jobs. 2. This is definetly entertainment. 3. There is always opportunity. What is left not to be sure about?
October 4, 200915 yr "This creates jobs, this creates entertainment, this creates opportunity..." I'm not really so sure about that. Gambling redistributes money, but does not create new wealth. "Gambling redistributes money" but jobs that facilitate that activity creates wealth which in turn has a multiplier effect on the cities economy (state in this case). Do you not believe this will employ people? Do you not think those people will have to eat, drink, live, and shop for goods and services somewhere? Going to a movie or even a football game redistributes money without even the possibility of breaking even or gaining yet both are considered entertainment as well. I am not sure why you do not think that jobs, entertainment and opportunity for people like myself who are investing (and will also employ) TODAY in the surrounding area is realistic.
October 5, 200915 yr I'd bet that if Cincy got a casino we'd see Daytonites all over the place. I dont think you read what I wrote. I said these casinos won't help Dayton. Oh, I thought that the tax revenue is distributed to every county in OH?
October 5, 200915 yr ^ I think the issue with redistribution would only be the case if there are more people going gambling when the casino opens. Based on the Indiana average you would be looking at 1,200 new jobs. Some of these jobs are new since the casino is recapturing some gambling going to indiana, some might be a redistribution within the local entertainment economy if the casinos draw a higher % of the entertainment dollar by developing substantial new customer base. I am not sure why you do not think that jobs, entertainment and opportunity for people like myself who are investing (and will also employ) TODAY in the surrounding area is realistic. The assumption here is that a casino in OTR ( I assume this is where its going to go, since thats where Redmond is active in real estate) will lead to the Greektown effect, where the streets around the Greektown casino are pretty busy, with the area becoming downtown Detroits main nightlife/restaurant area. Might work. Myabe you all can get a bunch of German themed stuff instead of Greek stuff to locate across the street from the casino (to go along with the OTR history)
October 5, 200915 yr ^ I think the issue with redistribution would only be the case if there are more people going gambling when the casino opens. .... Hmmm ....
October 5, 200915 yr "1. There will definetly be jobs..." If I have $100 to spend on entertainment, I can choose to go to the zoo, to the football game, to King's Island, to the mall, the bar, or many other places. If I spend that $100 on gambling, then the zoo, etc., will have $100 less in revenue. This is the substitution effect. The casino will substitute for the zoo and every other enterntainment option. The casino will employ 1200 or more people. I can't argue that. However, I am not so sure that it will bring 1200 NEW jobs. It will displace jobs from the zoo, etc. The stadiums were supposed to bring in all this new activity and tax revenue. Hamilton County sales tax revenue is DOWN. I think this demonstrates the substitution effect. What a casino MAY do is displace activity from Lawrenceburg to Cincinnati. This could be good, depending on who you are. (It might be bad for Lawrenceburg.) However, it doesn't generate new wealth. It just shifts the wealth around a little. I don't think casinos in Ohio will help the overall economy. It may help the local economy due to concentration of traffic around the casino.
October 5, 200915 yr The assumption here is that a casino in OTR I am talking about the casino on Broadway Commons specifically but what I am saying is true for any casino in an urban core. This is the substitution effect. The casino will substitute for the zoo and every other enterntainment option. Really? I do not think that the conversation with the wife will ever be do we want to take the kids to the zoo or the casino. Have you ever thought that this, in conjunction with other venues may be the tipping point for someone to decide to visit Cincinnati, to go Downtown, perhaps even get a convention to decide to go here vs go there? It could be the catalyst that causes entertainment dollars and all the ancillary cost that go with it that may otherwise not have been spent at all. Everything is not a zero sum game and you have to consider the macro effect. I am not so sure that it will bring 1200 NEW jobs. It will displace jobs from the zoo, etc. If we were at full employment... ahhhhh... to some degree maybe. Janitor here vs Janitor there, the casino may win. So then should I argue against the zoo's funding in that it may take away from the museum, or the library? Reality is we have a lot of room for jobs all around this state. Hamilton County sales tax revenue is DOWN. I think this demonstrates the substitution effect. You are making the mistake of attributing down revenue with only one venue. I also think that those who say that the casino will be the cure all for budgets of the gov are mistaken as well. Will it help?, absolutely but we need a strong jobs and real estate base to cure that. It may help the local economy due to concentration of traffic around the casino. Local jobs, local entertainment, local increase in economic activity all sound good to me. You sold me.
October 5, 200915 yr The topic is whether gambling casinos in Ohio will really help the economy. I took the topic to ask whether or not the casinos will help the OHIO economy. Of course a casino in Over-the-Rhine will help Over-the-Rhine. A casino any other place will hurt Over-the-Rhine. The casino draws traffic to the area around the casino, and brings tax money to the appropriate jurisdiction. The game is to get the money flowing the way you want it. However, casinos by themselves do not generate new wealth, as a farm, factory, or mine would. If 4 guys get together to play cards, and they each bring $100, then that total $400 may leave in somebody else's hands, but it's still $400. On a larger scale, if a million people per year bring $100 million to the casino, then that same $100 million leaves the casino. Some of it goes to the owner of the casino, some to the workers, some to the local taxing jurisdiction, and some goes out as winnings. But overall, no one actually produced anything, other than a good time. On the average, no one ever goes home from a casino richer than when he came in. Compare to a farm, factory, or mine. You start with raw materials and produce something useful. Workers take home a real paycheck, which can be traded for useful things. A worker at an auto assembly plant can save his paychecks and purchase a new automobile. That is true wealth. Again, the game is redistribution of wealth. If you can get workers to gamble away their hard-earned paychecks in your casino, then I'm happy for you. My guess is that a casino in Over-the-Rhine will help Over-the-Rhine. However, a casino in Over-the-Rhine will hurt Lawrenceburg, it will hurt Newport, it will hurt Dayton, it will hurt the zoo, it will hurt the Bengals, it will hurt Elmwood Place, it will hurt Norwood, and it will hurt Sharonville. It will not help the overall economy.
October 5, 200915 yr However, casinos by themselves do not generate new wealth, as a farm, factory, or mine would. I am not sure a farm or a mine would be the highest and best use for Broadway Commons. That aside, I disagree with your saying it does not generate new wealth as it makes adjacent properties that were once useless, useful. On the average, no one ever goes home from a casino richer than when he came in. On average, no one ever goes home from the zoo richer than when he came in either. That is not the point. Employees are paid. Traffic generates ancillary needs which can be met by outside business. Forget the casino for a moment. What if I said I am simply moving in company X to the site which will employ 5000 to build and another 2000 permanent positions. No customers, and lets say they received 10 or even 20 year tax abatement. It is still a good deal for the city. Why is a casino any different? Does it boil down to a moral issue with you? If so, then fine, lets discuss it on those grounds. Compare to a farm, factory, or mine. You start with raw materials and produce something useful. Workers take home a real paycheck, which can be traded for useful things. A worker at an auto assembly plant can save his paychecks and purchase a new automobile. That is true wealth. You are comparing workers in those industries to customers at a casino. Is the paycheck that the worker in the casino taking home any less valuable than that of the farmer? And what if that paycheck is spent in part at the zoo or the house in Elmwood place, is that money of no benefit? Is that new wealth any less valuable?
October 5, 200915 yr Not to mention the fact, that the people in greater cincinnati that want to gamble, already do! That money is already being gambled instead of going to the zoo. I haven't heard anyone say that the zoo is hurting because of Lawrencburg.
October 5, 200915 yr Not to mention the fact, that the people in greater cincinnati that want to gamble, already do! That money is already being gambled instead of going to the zoo. I haven't heard anyone say that the zoo is hurting because of Lawrencburg. Not to mention alot of workers goto the casino from Ohio to work there.
October 5, 200915 yr The casinos may not help Dayton necessarily (even though they will get millions in tax revenue), but it won't hurt it. Also, people go out of state to gamble now instead of going to the zoo (or whatever else people do), so a significant amount of money would be spent in four major population areas in ohio instead of the downs in PA. This is not an all or nothing situation. It is possible for something to be a contributing factor of progress without being a focal point. If it helps these cities or the states in any way, it is good. In fact, I would argue that as long as gambling doesn't have a negative effect on the economy, gambling would be acceptable. Especially since it is privately funded. This isn't even mentioning the fact that new development makes the city-scape more aesthetically pleasing and opens opportunities for further development. I think gambling in ohio will help the economy, at best, and have no effect at worst. So, I say, give it a chance.
October 5, 200915 yr I'm not arguing about moral issues. This topic asks whether or not casinos will help the economy, not whether or not casinos are moral. I think that they will NOT help the economy, because entertainment venues do not add wealth to the economy as long as they substitute for each other. They will help the LOCAL economy, but not the overall economy. It will LOOK like it helps the overall economy, because there will be a new building, lots of cars in the parking lot, and lots of activity around the casino. But what you don't see is the slight but widespread downturn in the rest of the economy. Every dollar I spend at the casino is a dollar that I do not spend somewhere else. Will Ohio come out ahead, seeing that Ohioans spend a lot of money in other states? Quite frankly I don't know. A lot of out of state folks buy lottery tickets in Ohio.
October 5, 200915 yr I think that they will NOT help the economy, because entertainment venues do not add wealth to the economy as long as they substitute for each other. They will help the LOCAL economy, but not the overall economy. The "substitution" is not between going to the museum vs. going to the casino. The substitution is between having poker night in your buddy's basement and giving each other $100 each or going to a casino and having a dealer get paid while you play in the poker room. Or driving to MI, IN, PA, NY, WV, KY, etc to go gambling or just stay in town at the local Casino. Or gambling where ever you currently gamble in a state not names Ohio and substituting gambling in Ohio instead. No more bus trips to Windsor or Atlantic City.
October 5, 200915 yr I think that they will NOT help the economy, because entertainment venues do not add wealth to the economy as long as they substitute for each other. They will help the LOCAL economy, but not the overall economy. You and I will have to agree to disagree as you seem to believe in zero sums while I do not. I also believe that further employment helps the individual which in turn helps the local and overall economy. Bottom line, the parking lot that has existed in the Broadway Commons space for years has not done anything to stimulate local, let alone the states economy either so a casino sounds like a good alternative. Take that opinion for what its worth.
October 5, 200915 yr Just about anything is better than a parking lot. Incidently, in Lawrenceburg when the casinos were approved, the casino company bought all of the land they could get. They paved a cornfield quite some distance from the casino, and they initiated a shuttle bus service. They do everything that they possibly can to capture all of the traffic. They certainly don't want to draw visitors to the neighborhood.
October 5, 200915 yr That description is as bad as your spelling. The previous owners of the property you ACCUSED them of purchasing, must have liked the money more than the growing of corn. The parking lot you mention is as close as they could get to the casino without being in the flood plain. The shuttlebus was necessary to bring patrons prior to the building of the garage. Afterwards, it was used for overflow traffic, necessary on most weekends. The entire riverfront area west of the casino has been revitalized THANKS to the presence of the casino.
October 6, 200915 yr "The previous owners of the property you ACCUSED them of purchasing, must have liked the money more than the growing of corn." I don't understand. Yes, obviously the landowners were willing sellers. I'm just saying that large parking lots are not conductive to pedestrian traffic, which is the key to proper urban design. I visit Lawrenceburg often, and I am disgusted by the development that has occurred since the casino opened. I grant you that the riverfront parks are nice. I do not enjoy the miles of sprawl on U.S. 50, buildings torn down for widening, filling of floodplains, etc.
October 6, 200915 yr They certainly don't want to draw visitors to the neighborhood. That is my job. That is your job. I firmly believe that we as a community must step up and draw visitors into our community ourselves. The Bengals do not hang signs saying go to the adjacent neighborhoods and neither do the Reds yet we still manage to pack our bars and restaurants on game day. Somehow you seem to always gloss over the fact that there will be needs of the employees as well. Where do they live, where do they eat, where do they shop. We put value in companies who come to Cincinnati (and every other city USA) that bring even fewer employees and less construction jobs with no flow of customers into there sites. We were all thankful that Dunnhumby moved their operations to Cincy with 500 employees into an existing building with no customers going into there doors. Did that help the local economy, of course. Morality or simply playing devils advocate, whatever the reason, I can't believe you do not realize that in one way or another this is of benefit to us all, if for no other reason than to give us another entertainment venue and a thousand plus jobs. I'm no economist, but I am not dumb either, this is a good deal.
October 6, 200915 yr If 4 guys get together to play cards, and they each bring $100, then that total $400 may leave in somebody else's hands, but it's still $400. What if the fourth person was in town from Massachusetts just for the weekend and ended up winning the pot?
October 6, 200915 yr "The previous owners of the property you ACCUSED them of purchasing, must have liked the money more than the growing of corn." I don't understand. Yes, obviously the landowners were willing sellers. I'm just saying that large parking lots are not conductive to pedestrian traffic, which is the key to proper urban design. I visit Lawrenceburg often, and I am disgusted by the development that has occurred since the casino opened. I grant you that the riverfront parks are nice. I do not enjoy the miles of sprawl on U.S. 50, buildings torn down for widening, filling of floodplains, etc. I don't understand how that is the fault of the casino. That is a planning issue. That certainty would not occur with an urban casino in DT Cincinnati.
October 6, 200915 yr I think that they will NOT help the economy, because entertainment venues do not add wealth to the economy as long as they substitute for each other. They will help the LOCAL economy, but not the overall economy. It will LOOK like it helps the overall economy, because there will be a new building, lots of cars in the parking lot, and lots of activity around the casino. But what you don't see is the slight but widespread downturn in the rest of the economy. Every dollar I spend at the casino is a dollar that I do not spend somewhere else. I agree, and that is why I say the only real benefit for Ohio as a whole is the revenue/tax angle. The economic benefit will be quite localized, in the specfic neighborhood around the casino.
October 6, 200915 yr On a larger scale, if a million people per year bring $100 million to the casino, then that same $100 million leaves the casino. Some of it goes to the owner of the casino, some to the workers, some to the local taxing jurisdiction, and some goes out as winnings. But overall, no one actually produced anything, other than a good time. On the average, no one ever goes home from a casino richer than when he came in. Bingo. This is exactley why the economic development argument is superficial...or at best localized and limited. It's the difference between economic activity that exports goods and services and brings money into the state and local economies....in other words, baking a bigger pie....vs reslicing the pie. The way the casinos can add to the pie is if they can induce increased spending on entertainment, in other words if people reallocate more money from their household budgets to entertainment. Another way if they can generate a substantial amount of out-of-state gamblers to come to Ohio...gambling tourism.
October 6, 200915 yr I just read that if this issue passes, "casino nights" at churches, charities and other organizations will be banned. If this is true, do all of you still support the issue? What I read also says that the casinos would pay no taxes on profits from "cash wagering." And that there is no limit to what the casinos could insist the taxpayers fund in terms of roads/bridge/other improvements in upgrades they request. This doesn't sound like a very good thing to pass IMO.
October 6, 200915 yr ^I've read the proposed amendment (I recommend everyone does http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/upload/ballotboard/2009/3-text.pdf) and it says nothing of banning casino nights at churches or for other charitable events. Did the lottery make it illegal to have 50/50 drawings at high school sporting events? Of course not. From what I can gather there is absolutely no truth to that allegation. Now, for the cash wagering profits... this is much more murky. According to the bill, casinos would pay a 33% tax on all revenue. You tell me what constitutes revenue and you'll have your answer. I'm not a gambling expert, but when a cash wager is made I don't think the 33% tax is levied against it. The casino simply "holds" that money until the end of the event, game, whatever and then distributes the winnings and keeps the remainder. Now, that remainder would be taxed at 33% as part of their gross revenue. There could be a little truth to this allegation, but I think it's just people playing word games. The casino owners can "insist" the taxpayers fund roads/bridges/other improvements and upgrades all they want, but that doesn't mean we need to give it to them. When they purchase that license for $50 million they are then required by law to spend no less than $250 million on their casino. Just as with any development infrastructure improvements would be made to support the development. New sidewalks, street lights, fire hydrants, sewer/storm/water lines, traffic flow improvements, etc... What do you think they would "insist" we fund?
October 6, 200915 yr Where times are tough, people drink and gamble on a wing and a prayer..Hence why we want to come to Cleveland so much because we think those suckers are so desperate that they'll whore themselves out to anything as long as we spew the 'jobs and taxes' propaganda. But, we all know how altruistic the gaming industry is. I am sure they're my benefactor and want to help me as it is in their good hearts to do so. We need to not think for ourselves and become something really different and unique, but instead copy cat other places who jumped on the bandwagon. Just look how Detroit's woes were cured. I am sure ours will be soooo different that it will lure not only all the high end rollers here in Ohio, but attract all of them from Vegas and surrounding states too. Since other states have it, we must now do this to counter it under the guise, fear mongering and bullying that it will 'keep money here' but we ignore the many possible drains this could have on society, but helping to foster a dysfunctional society. We really should continue to economically type-cast ourselves by getting this one last reaffirming attribute going. But I know... I know...They (gaming industry)really care about all of us and all Ohioans will have a job, and we can add this to a list of wonderful things we like to call economic development like cash advance check cashing places, tattoo parlors, fast food joints, boom car outfitters--all of which create numb and dumb people... But we don't care.. We'll just make stupid look cool and we're good to go! Cannot wait to see the daggy obese, the down and out..the compulsives, etc..etc.. spending their rolls of pennies at the slot machines in the hope of hitting it big! Then, they may be able to afford $20.00 worth of fresh groceries to prepare a simple healthy meal from a few fresh ingredients...slow food fast, to give a counter knock out punch and answer to the myths of fast food. Those who wind up on assistance from pissing their money away will be scorned by the biggest supporters of the casinos.... Life will be good. Yes, these are definitely something we need to use as the foundation of the economy...build one around. All will heal and if not, we can skew the numbers to make people think all is healed. Sooooo.. YES.. I vote for this truly unique and one of a kind item....YES!! Uhhhh... No. Mike Pigasonno rules! He is the panacea of all the truth...NPR is for dummies! :-P
October 6, 200915 yr Where times are tough, people drink and gamble on a wing and a prayer..Hence why we want to come to Cleveland so much because we think those suckers are so desperate that they'll whore themselves out to anything as long as we spew the 'jobs and taxes' propaganda. But, we all know how altruistic the gaming industry is. I am sure they're my benefactor and want to help me as it is in their good hearts to do so. We need to not think for ourselves and become something rerally different and unique, but instread copy cat other places who jumped on the bandwagon. I am sure ours will be soooo different that it will lure not only all the high end rollers here in Ohio, but attract all of them from Vegas and surrounding states too. Since other states have it, we must now do this to counter it under the guise that it will 'keep money hwere' but we ignore the many possible drains this could have on society, but helping to foster a dysfunctional society. But I know... I know...They (gaming industry)really care about all of us and all Ohioans will have a job, and we can add this to a list of wonderful things we like to call economic development like cash advance check cashing places, tattoo parlors, fast food joints, boom car outfitters--all of which create numb and dumb people... But we don't care.. We'll just make stupid look cool and we're good to go! Cannot wait to see the daggy obese, the down and out..the compulsives, etc..etc.. spending their rolls of pennies at the slot machines in the hope of hitting it big! Then, they may be able to afford $20.00 worth of fresh groceries to prepare a simple healthy meal from a few fresh ingredients...slow food fast, to give a counter knock out punch and answer to the myths of fast food. Those who wind up on assistance from pissing their money away will be scorned by the biggest supporters of the casinos.... Life will be good. Yes, these are definitely something we need to use as the foundation of the economy...build one around. All will heal and if not, we can skew the numbers to make people think all is healed. Sooooo.. YES.. I vote for this truly unique and one of a kind item....YES!! Uhhhh... No. Again, you're reflecting your beliefs of what society should be like. Not what actually happens. Cleveland has as many good things going for it as NoLa or any other city with downtown entertainment, night life and business & residential. There are many attractions to bring someone here and please, please, stop comparing our one casino to Las Vegas. It's totally off base and comparing kiwi fruit to black cherry's.
October 6, 200915 yr Cannot wait to see the daggy obese, the down and out..the compulsives, etc..etc.. spending their rolls of pennies at the slot machines in the hope of hitting it big! Then, they may be able to afford $20.00 worth of fresh groceries to prepare a simple healthy meal from a few fresh ingredients...slow food fast, to give a counter knock out punch and answer to the myths of fast food. Those who wind up on assistance from pissing their money away will be scorned by the biggest supporters of the casinos.... Life will be good. Dumb.
October 6, 200915 yr Okay, I had two beers at dinner and I don't think I'm nearly sloshed enough for EC's post to make any sense. :drunk: clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
October 6, 200915 yr Have a few more, than try again. It probably won't help, but you'll feel better about it!
October 6, 200915 yr "I don't understand how that is the fault of the casino." Parking lots and auto-oriented development are not the fault of the casino, but those things come along with it. I would expect that a new casino in Over-the-Rhine will quickly become surrounded by parking lots and all of the auto-oriented development that we are used to seeing in the suburbs.
October 7, 200915 yr ^It's a tough pill to swallow, but it's a sad fact that ALL large developments include a lot of parking no matter where they are located. Some developers are better at hiding it / integrating it, but the fact is that any large development will come with a lot of parking. Be it an office or apartment building, sports arena, or a casino... they would all include large amounts of parking. Just an unfortunate part of the World we live in. If I'm not mistaken isn't the area being considered in Cincinnati currently all parking lots? Wouldn't this development be an improvement? Or are you concerned that they won't build any dense parking structures and stifle possible future development?
October 7, 200915 yr What I read also says that the casinos would pay no taxes on profits from "cash wagering." I am not sure where cash wagering is actually allowed. All wagers are converted and that conversion into chips or credits is what is taxed. It is illegal in Indiana for example to do a cash wager and even though you feed a dollar into a slot, it is that converted "credit" and that equivalent dollar value therein that is taxed. Try and lay a dollar on any table and see what happens. I would expect that a new casino in Over-the-Rhine will quickly become surrounded by parking lots and all of the auto-oriented development that we are used to seeing in the suburbs. It is a giant parking lot now! Putting a casino on it only takes away from the existing 20 acres of parking. It is like you are fishing for a reason to be against this. I am not saying you should vote for it (just everyone else), but these arguments of the parking lot becoming a parking lot are reaching.
October 7, 200915 yr What I read also says that the casinos would pay no taxes on profits from "cash wagering." I am not sure where cash wagering is actually allowed. All wagers are converted and that conversion into chips or credits is what is taxed. It is illegal in Indiana for example to do a cash wager and even though you feed a dollar into a slot, it is that converted "credit" and that equivalent dollar value therein that is taxed. Try and lay a dollar on any table and see what happens. What about betting on horse races, sporting events and other silly things like putting money down on who will be the next President? That's what I think of when I hear "cash wagering", not people throwing cash on a blackjack table. Do any of our surrounding states allowing betting on sporting events, horse racing, etc from their casinos?
October 7, 200915 yr Do any of our surrounding states allowing betting on sporting events, horse racing, etc from their casinos? Both Indiana and Kentucky have off track betting but I still believe that the issue of cash conversions cover that as well. It may be worth asking the West Virginia casino and owner of the race track south of Columbus who are backing the anti Ohio casino campaign on how whether they take cash wagers or not in their locations and how they plan on strenghening laws to close loopholes in their own state.
October 7, 200915 yr I'm not looking for a reason to be against casinos. I don't think casinos will help the economy, and I think that any casino will be surrounded by a lot of parking lots. If a casino is built in Over-the-Rhine, the parking lot issue could even work against us if the parking, along with auto-oriented development, starts to displace other existing uses. And I am sure that the casino will do everything they can to to steer customers to the casino WITHOUT visiting other attractions in the neighborhood. For example, they could fence off the property and make the automobile entrance the main entrance, making it inconvenient to leave the casino property. If you don't think it can happen, look at how Paul Brown stadium is integrated with the surrounding neighborhood. The stadium package included laws that prohibit street vendors near the stadium! Be careful what you wish for. Personally, I think if gambling is going to be legal, it should be legal for everyone. Picking a small number of sites for casinos is like a government-supported monopoly and leads to concentraion of power. Imagine if there were 10 or 20 different small-scale casinos in Over-the-Rhine, as well as some more in the suburbs, even in suburban malls.
October 8, 200915 yr At the risk of crossing the big red box, this was pulled from an Enquirer Op-Ed . . . "But to their credit, the Rock Ventures LLC group, which will back the Cincinnati and Cleveland casinos, aims to design its facilities to connect with the neighborhood. The backers pledge not to build on-site hotels to keep customers "captive," but to cooperate with downtown hotels, restaurants and other businesses. They're willing to discuss a link to the Broadway Commons casino from a proposed downtown streetcar line, should that project get under way." http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20090919/EDIT01/909200348/-1/today/A+casino+bid+that+s+good+for+Ohio Talk is cheap, but if the owners are held to these pledges. It sounds like the perfect set up. Make sure parking is behind the casino and they don't build any type of theater to compete with Music Hall, Taft, Emery, etc and the review board keeps on them for a quality design, bring on the Star Wars penny slots.
October 8, 200915 yr Be careful what you wish for. Wishing isn't the word, planning is. Imagine if there were 10 or 20 different small-scale casinos in Over-the-Rhine There are, they are called Keno bars. The effect of a minimum $250,000,000 investment per site beats my 50-100,000 small investment a small individual site. Hey, I would love to have the next micro casino but I am more than willing to leave that to the experts. bring on the Star Wars penny slots. Wheel of Fortune Slots!
October 18, 200915 yr I was coming around to the Casino idea until this excellent Dayton Daily News editorial explaning what a bad deal this is for Ohio vis a vis neighboring states. Also interesting to see how corrupt the FOP is. Issue 3 is a stacked deck: Casinos set own taxes Here is the important thing to keep straight when you vote Nov. 3: Even if you would like to gamble in the state, Issue 3 is a bad deal. It is a constitutional amendment that would allow one casino in Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati and Toledo. The proposal was written by and for the very developers who would own the casinos, down to the details of what tax rates they’d pay. Wouldn’t you love to decide your own taxes? >snip< ...today DDN editorial writer Ellen Belcher follows up with this piece: Casino Backers Way Worse Than Your Kids For the fifth time in two decades, you’re being asked to allow casino gambling. Four times you have said no. But “the kid” — the gambling industry — will just not give it up. “He” keeps asking, begging, bribing, whining until you swear you’re going to slap him to sleep. “Everybody’s doing it,” goes the argument, “Please, please, please.” Gag me. Been there, heard that stuff for longer than I want to remember. >snip< ...Belcher pretty much reiterates the previous op-ed, and makes a good point that this will be a monopoly enshrined in a consitutional amendment.
October 18, 200915 yr none of that actually proves that the casino is a bad deal. I would also say that 33% is very comparable to Indiana's in Michigan's
October 23, 200915 yr I believe I am within the rules on this as it is a press release and not sourced from the news sites. However if I am wrong, go ahead and delete it. Cincinnati USA CVB Endorses Issue 3 Casinos considered to be key incubator for hospitality industry growth CINCINNATI – October 22, 2009 - The Executive Committee of the Board of Directors of the Cincinnati Convention & Visitors Bureau voted to endorse Issue 3. Issue 3 proposes building casinos in Cincinnati, Toledo, Cleveland and Columbus. In making its endorsement, the CVB Executive Committee cited the following benefits to the hospitality industry: * Creating 34,000 new jobs statewide, 5,000 in Cincinnati * Generating an estimated $47.1 million annually in tax revenue for Hamilton County and the City of Cincinnati * Driving 6 million visitors each year to the Cincinnati casino * Bring a minimum of $1 billion in new private investment to Cincinnati and the other three casino host cities. “We have a great opportunity to add another high-profile attraction to an already impressive collection of sports venues, museums, concert halls, restaurants and hotels,” said Dan Lincoln, President and CEO of the Cincinnati USA Convention & Visitors Bureau. “The impact on the State of Ohio and specifically on the Cincinnati USA region will be dramatic and the presence of a first-class casino will only strengthen our offering as one of the nation’s prime destinations.” Casino operators, Rock Ventures, LLC, also have committed: * That no hotel development will occur within 10 miles of the casino for a minimum of five years or until downtown hotel occupancy rates rise to a sustainable 75 percent; * To provide a dedicated shuttle service between the casino and surrounding hotels, the Duke Energy Convention Center and the Sharonville Convention Center for a minimum of three years; * To aggressively market and cross-promote other area attractions, restaurants and retailers; and * To work closely with the Cincinnati USA CVB to attract key high-impact/high-profile conventions to Cincinnati USA. “Our CVB works hard to bring meetings, conventions and business and leisure travelers to the region," said Nicholas J. Vehr, Chairman of the Board for the Cincinnati USA CVB. "A new casino will make Cincinnati USA a more attractive destination.” ### About the Cincinnati USA Convention & Visitors Bureau The Cincinnati USA Convention & Visitors Bureau is an aggressive sales, marketing and service organization whose primary responsibility is to positively impact Hamilton County's and the City of Cincinnati's economy through convention, trade show and visitor expenditures. The travel and tourism industry traditionally has been a $3.4 billion industry in Cincinnati USA, employing 81,000 people in a variety of fields and, historically, bringing five million visitors to the region annually. To learn more about Cincinnati USA, visit www.CincyUSA.comor call 800.543.2613. About Issue 3: * Issue 3, the Ohio Jobs and Growth Plan, is the right proposal at the right time. It provides far more benefit to the state, county and local governments, schools, and the people of Ohio than any previous casino gaming ballot proposal. * The proposal authorizes four first-class casinos, located at specific sites in Ohio’s four largest cities –Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Toledo. * Ohioans spend $1 billion annually at casinos in neighboring states (Indiana, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Michigan). Kentucky is currently considering authorizing slot machines at the state’s race tracks. Private Investment: * The proposal requires a minimum of $250 million in private economic investment in first-class casinos in each of Ohio’s four largest cities – a total of $1 billion in required economic investment. The investment in Cincinnati will exceed $300 million. * There will be no subsidies provided to develop the casinos. Casinos will be developed and operated with private investment. Jobs: * The proposal will create an estimated 34,000 jobs for the state. In Cincinnati, this will include 2,134 construction jobs and 2,754 jobs ongoing. These are well paid jobs averaging over $34,000. Tax Revenue: * The state will receive upfront license fee payments totaling $200 million, specifically designated for job training and workforce development projects. * Gross casino revenues will be taxed at a rate of 33 percent. Based on estimated annual gross casino revenues of $1.97 billion, approximately $651 million in casino tax revenue will be generated each year, with counties and Ohio schools receiving the bulk of those revenues. * Hamilton County and Cincinnati will receive $47.1 million annually (see chart below). * In addition to the 33 percent tax rate on gross casino revenues, the casinos will also generate property taxes, sales taxes, commercial activity taxes and income taxes to state and local government. DISTRIBUTION OF CASINO TAX REVENUES * 33 percent tax levied on gross casino revenues (estimated tax revenue of $651 million per year) * Casino tax revenue distributed as follows: o 51 percent (an estimated $332 million a year) among the 88 counties, based on population. + In counties whose largest city has a population greater than 80,000, half of the county’s distribution goes to that city (NOTE: This provision benefits Akron, Canton, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo and Youngstown). o 34 percent (an estimated $221 million a year) for distribution to all public school districts, to support primary and secondary education (distribution to school districts through each county based on student population). o 5 percent (an estimated $32 million each year) apportioned among the casino host cities. o 3 percent (an estimated $19 million each year) each for: + The Ohio State Racing Commission to help revitalize the horse racing industry in Ohio + Funding the operations of the Ohio Casino Control Commission o 2 percent (an estimated $13 million each year) each for: + Treatment of problem gambling and substance abuse, including related research + Training for law enforcement agencies DISTRIBUTION OF CASINO TAX REVENUES IN SOUTHWEST OHIO Community Revenue for County Government Revenue for School Districts Revenue for Host City Revenue for Largest City (Pop > 80,000) Hamilton County $12.2 million $14.1 million - - City of Cincinnati - - $8.7 million $12.2 million Butler County $10.4 million $7.5 million - - Clermont County $5.6 million $3.5 million - - Warren County $5.9 million $4.3 million - - Brown County $1.3 million $1.0 million - - * Note: All estimates based upon $651 million in annual casino tax revenues. Paid for by Ohio Jobs and Growth Committee, Bill Curlis, Treasurer, 865 Macon Alley, Columbus OH 43206
October 26, 200915 yr No hotel development within 10 miles for 5 years??? Will this impact the Banks hotel, or the possible conversion of 6th and Walnut?
October 26, 200915 yr ^10 miles does seem quite excessive. Not sure how it would impact projects that are currently underway. I'm sure some of them would be grandfathered in. I know that in Cleveland we wouldn't want a 10-mile requirement like that. We don't want the casino to stifle the development of a large (700+ room) international hotel to be developed in conjunction with the Medical Mart and Convention Center. I know that the developers in Cleveland wouldn't build a hotel on-site right away, but I think that was it.
October 26, 200915 yr No hotel development within 10 miles for 5 years??? Will this impact the Banks hotel, or the possible conversion of 6th and Walnut? I thought the press release meant that the operators/owners of the casino will not develop a hotel themselves within 10 miles from the casino. I don't think it means no one could build a hotel, and I don't see how they could prevent someone else from building a hotel. Does anyone know for sure?
October 26, 200915 yr That is the casino hotel, not any hotel. This was put in place so it would not compete with the surrounding hotels and would drive the occupancy of the current hotels and hopefully create demand for new ones as well. This was a sticking point because why compete with current hotels when the vacancy rate is still high. The casino will kill two birds with one stone on this issue vs creating additional vacancies in what are already struggling hotels. My hope longterm is that we have increased demand, not only from the casino, but also increased convention traffic. Having a casino in a city vs not, could be the deciding factor in attracting some larger convention business but that will take a few years as the bookings are made so far in advance. This may strengthen the attraction for better hotels (like a W) having the casino with a no hotel stipulation.
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