Cleburger is right when it comes to demos for the most part. That's not to say that younger people don't gamble (you'll find them at the tables and in the poker room) but the bulk of players lean over 50. One advantage Horseshoe will have is that its linked to Total Rewards. That makes a big difference in a serious gamblers eyes. TR is the best loyalty club in the country and can be used all over. It's a great way to entice people to play there. Hard Rock lacks a top notch national players club.

 

Another thing to remember is that Gilbert and Caesars certainly knew that more competition was probably on the way when they created the Horseshoe. Racinos were approved by Columbus before the Gilbert proposal even made it on the ballot. The difference is that the racinos have been stuck in legal battles. Caesars bought Thistledown well before they were part of the Gilbert plan so this process has been going on for years. Gilbert now owns a piece of Thistledown and whether it gets moved to Akron/Canton or not, that's still some more competition for downtown. That's the way the business goes and I don't think Gilbert ever thought that the Cleveland casino would be the only one in NEO. Not when racinos had already been planned and his business partner (Caesars) bought a horse racing track with the plan to operate a casino there.

What the naysayers are forgetting is that you can't just automatically say this is going to hurt Horseshoe. What are you comparing it to? There has NEVER been a casino built in the heart of a city's downtown before. (And Vegas doesn't count because they built their city around their casinos). So how can anyone predict that this is going to hurt Horseshoe?  Based of what? The truth is no one knows what effect this will have on Horseshoe because a casino like Horseshoe has never been done before in America.

 

That's not necessarily true. There have been casinos built in downtowns. Harrah's New Orleans pioneered that. Greektown in Detroit was the second. MGM in Detroit is on the edge of downtown, so I'll agree its not in the heart. There's also Seneca Buffalo and Rivers in Pittsburgh although they are more adjacent to downtown than right there. I suppose it depends on what your definition of the heart of downtown is.

 

Greektown is probably the best comparison to what Gilbert is doing in Cleveland. I don't think the casino has either helped or hurt Greektown. It was always a vibrant neighborhood full of people. I will say this - Greektown Casino draws the worst demos of the three Detroit casinos. Its considered a low-roller casino even though its in an area that's very vibrant and full of city life. It should draw in young people, just because of its location but it hasn't happened. Instead, it draws poorer, older people and its revenues reflect that even though its in the best neighborhood of the three. MGM and Motor City has destroyed them with better restaurants, nightlife, etc. built right in. Greeektown thought the neighborhood could offer that. In the end, MGM won that battle with Motor City right behind it while Greektown ended up bankrupt. Harrah's NoLa also ended up bankrupt even though that seemed like a perfect plan on paper. Harrah's NoLa was hurt badly by competition in the burbs.

 

If Hard Rock can have great nightlife, food, etc., it will be a top competitor to Horseshoe since Horseshoe is largely going for the Greektown strategy - relying on the neighborhood instead of the casino itself. Time will tell if that works out better in Cleveland than it did in Detroit.

None of those examples you mentioned, with the exception on maybe New Orleans, are in the HEART Of downtown. At best, they're on the outskirts or around downtown. But none of them are in the heart of downtown.

And Dan Gilbert has said himself that Greektown was an example of what NOT to do because it wasn't in the heart of downtown. So I don't know where you got that info from, but Dan himself has said that.

But don't forget to tie-in all the discussions about parking downtown. 

 

Yes, I did OFFER MY OPINION on a new casino in Northfield.  But, IMO, it is based on factual observations of casinos elsewhere.

 

The vast majority of casino patrons, especially in the midwest, are over 50, white and female.  They want seas of endless parking and ease of access.  There is no glitz or glamor about it--they are going to chain smoke cigarettes and put quarters in the slots.  (For this reason the native casinos of western NY will continue to hold the edge on Cleveland's non-smoking environs).

 

Downtown will offer a different experience, but you better bet Dan Gilbert doesn't want the slots at Northfield.  That is not being negative about Cleveland, that is thinking rationally with a clear sense of marketing and business plan. 

 

Once again, IMO, a slot casino at Northfield is not good for the Horseshoe.  And IMO, if it opens soon, I SPECULATE it will delay the start of Phase II of the Shoe.

Smoking is illegal in Ohio.

 

Understood--this is why I said there will still be nearby casinos that continue to draw the weekend crowds because they can smoke.  As ridiculous as that sounds, there are plenty of casino fans willing to drive an 2 hours so they can smoke (and pick up cheap smokes on the reservations!)

What the naysayers are forgetting is that you can't just automatically say this is going to hurt Horseshoe. What are you comparing it to? There has NEVER been a casino built in the heart of a city's downtown before. (And Vegas doesn't count because they built their city around their casinos). So how can anyone predict that this is going to hurt Horseshoe?  Based of what? The truth is no one knows what effect this will have on Horseshoe because a casino like Horseshoe has never been done before in America.

 

That's not necessarily true. There have been casinos built in downtowns. Harrah's New Orleans pioneered that. Greektown in Detroit was the second. MGM in Detroit is on the edge of downtown, so I'll agree its not in the heart. There's also Seneca Buffalo and Rivers in Pittsburgh although they are more adjacent to downtown than right there. I suppose it depends on what your definition of the heart of downtown is.

 

Greektown is probably the best comparison to what Gilbert is doing in Cleveland. I don't think the casino has either helped or hurt Greektown. It was always a vibrant neighborhood full of people. I will say this - Greektown Casino draws the worst demos of the three Detroit casinos. Its considered a low-roller casino even though its in an area that's very vibrant and full of city life. It should draw in young people, just because of its location but it hasn't happened. Instead, it draws poorer, older people and its revenues reflect that even though its in the best neighborhood of the three. MGM and Motor City has destroyed them with better restaurants, nightlife, etc. built right in. Greeektown thought the neighborhood could offer that. In the end, MGM won that battle with Motor City right behind it while Greektown ended up bankrupt. Harrah's NoLa also ended up bankrupt even though that seemed like a perfect plan on paper. Harrah's NoLa was hurt badly by competition in the burbs.

 

If Hard Rock can have great nightlife, food, etc., it will be a top competitor to Horseshoe since Horseshoe is largely going for the Greektown strategy - relying on the neighborhood instead of the casino itself. Time will tell if that works out better in Cleveland than it did in Detroit.

 

St Louis also.  As far as the "heart" of downtown, I think that is just semantics.  Regular casino customers are going to go whether it's in the "heart" of downtown, or a freeway exit in Erie PA.  My point in all this was if it is easier for the regulars to park, avoid traffic and get what they want out of it, they will choose that route.

Greektown is by far the most vibrant neighborhood in the city. And as a native Detroiter, I don't know anyone from the city who doesn't consider Greektown downtown. Heck, the people mover connects there. Its a five minute walk to Campus Martius which is the center of downtown and most of the county's offices are located in an office building that directly connects to the casino.

 

Greektown was poorly created, no doubt about it, but much of Gilbert's strategy is the exact same one that Gatzaros and Pappas had when they originally proposed Greektown. If you go back and see what they said, their comments are almost exactly what Gilbert says today.

 

The bottom line is this, suburbanites found it much easier to get off the freeway and go right into the other casinos than to fight the traffic and parking in Greektown. There's no reason a similar thing won't happen in Cleveland. The key is making Horseshoe itself the most attractive casino in the region. If it pulls that off, it doesn't have to worry about competition. Otherwise, it shouldn't just automatically believe that being in a vibrant neighborhood will make the key difference. Most gamblers don't think that way. MGM and Motor City have the better amenities but the hoods they are in are awful compared to Greektown. That's how they became dominant in the market. Horseshoe needs to do the same thing should Hard Rock come into the market.

Cleburger is right when it comes to demos for the most part. That's not to say that younger people don't gamble (you'll find them at the tables and in the poker room) but the bulk of players lean over 50. One advantage Horseshoe will have is that its linked to Total Rewards. That makes a big difference in a serious gamblers eyes. TR is the best loyalty club in the country and can be used all over. It's a great way to entice people to play there. Hard Rock lacks a top notch national players club.

 

Another thing to remember is that Gilbert and Caesars certainly knew that more competition was probably on the way when they created the Horseshoe. Racinos were approved by Columbus before the Gilbert proposal even made it on the ballot. The difference is that the racinos have been stuck in legal battles. Caesars bought Thistledown well before they were part of the Gilbert plan so this process has been going on for years. Gilbert now owns a piece of Thistledown and whether it gets moved to Akron/Canton or not, that's still some more competition for downtown. That's the way the business goes and I don't think Gilbert ever thought that the Cleveland casino would be the only one in NEO. Not when racinos had already been planned and his business partner (Caesars) bought a horse racing track with the plan to operate a casino there.

 

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

What the naysayers are forgetting is that you can't just automatically say this is going to hurt Horseshoe. What are you comparing it to? There has NEVER been a casino built in the heart of a city's downtown before. (And Vegas doesn't count because they built their city around their casinos). So how can anyone predict that this is going to hurt Horseshoe?  Based of what? The truth is no one knows what effect this will have on Horseshoe because a casino like Horseshoe has never been done before in America.

 

That's not necessarily true. There have been casinos built in downtowns. Harrah's New Orleans pioneered that. Greektown in Detroit was the second. MGM in Detroit is on the edge of downtown, so I'll agree its not in the heart. There's also Seneca Buffalo and Rivers in Pittsburgh although they are more adjacent to downtown than right there. I suppose it depends on what your definition of the heart of downtown is.

 

Greektown is probably the best comparison to what Gilbert is doing in Cleveland. I don't think the casino has either helped or hurt Greektown. It was always a vibrant neighborhood full of people. I will say this - Greektown Casino draws the worst demos of the three Detroit casinos. Its considered a low-roller casino even though its in an area that's very vibrant and full of city life. It should draw in young people, just because of its location but it hasn't happened. Instead, it draws poorer, older people and its revenues reflect that even though its in the best neighborhood of the three. MGM and Motor City has destroyed them with better restaurants, nightlife, etc. built right in. Greeektown thought the neighborhood could offer that. In the end, MGM won that battle with Motor City right behind it while Greektown ended up bankrupt. Harrah's NoLa also ended up bankrupt even though that seemed like a perfect plan on paper. Harrah's NoLa was hurt badly by competition in the burbs.

 

If Hard Rock can have great nightlife, food, etc., it will be a top competitor to Horseshoe since Horseshoe is largely going for the Greektown strategy - relying on the neighborhood instead of the casino itself. Time will tell if that works out better in Cleveland than it did in Detroit.

I disagree, as our casino is built to be apart of the urban fabric, than take business away from nearby businesses like Detroit has. We already have a world class restaurant scene, a positive tourist vibe, cultural and local attractions within 3 miles of downtown.

MTS, exactly! The environment that this casino is being built in cannot be overlooked. That's a large part of its appeal. Casinos like these attract different demographics.  Which is, again, why I say that no one can predict what will or won't hurt this casino because it's uncharted territory.

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

 

I was the one who mentioned the over-50 white female demographic.  And in no place in this thread did I say this was the full target demo for the Horseshoe.  What I said was, this portion of the casino-going demo, which is sizable, may very well opt to take the easy route and just hang out in Northfield, thus cutting into the Horseshoe's business.  I don't mean to say the Horseshoe won't be successful.  I think inititially it's going to be huge!  But, if Northfield adds slots, over time the "regular" customers will tend gravitate towards it.

 

You have to remember that the over-50 demographic...really, the over-40 demo...holds a nostalgiac place in their heart for the Higbee building.

My mother who is elderly along with her friends, and my aunts, cant wait to go to the Horseshoe simply to be in a place (Higbee Bldg) where they once spent many hours decades ago.

Now, that may wear off...who knows. But it is the x-factor that the Horseshoe has.

Biggest concern... if there become any untoward perceptions in going down to the 'Shoe, that demo will probably go elsewhere.

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

 

 

 

You cannot compare Vegas of Atlantic City casinos to the casinos that have been built in the last 10-15 years.  So please take them out of the equation.  We're talking about the target audience for Cleveland's downtown urban casino versus other "city center" urban casinos and the only casino that fits that is Harrah's in NoLa.

 

What makes you think younger people do not gamble enough?

Slots are not where casinos make the most cash.  Table games, Black Jack and craps are the largest income generators.

 

In addition our casino is not a "black hole" like most Vegas/AC casinos.

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

 

 

 

You cannot compare Vegas of Atlantic City casinos to the casinos that have been built in the last 10-15 years.  So please take them out of the equation.  We're talking about the target audience for Cleveland's downtown urban casino versus other "city center" urban casinos and the only casino that fits that is Harrah's in NoLa.

 

What makes you think younger people do not gamble enough?

Slots are not where casinos make the most cash.  Table games, Black Jack and craps are the largest income generators.

 

In addition our casino is not a "black hole" like most Vegas/AC casinos.

 

The Cosmo is a brand new casino, not 15 years old. It was explicitly built to lure what they called the "creative class", a group that largely ignored Vegas. They've done good luring those people and many of Cosmo's visitors are new to the city. But they learned what every other casino already knew, they don't gamble as much and when they do, its at the tables which on a whole aren't as profitable as slots. Income and profit are two different things. An exception is baccarat but I doubt that's gonna be big in Cleveland since we lack a large wealthy Asian population.

 

I'll end with this. I've studied casino gaming so I think I have a good grasp on how casinos work. I've met many of the people who are running the Horseshoe and sat in meetings with them. There's a reason that they came from Joliet, Hammond, Atlantic City, Missouri and Tunica. They expect this casino to draw the same people that any other casino does. The same demographics, etc. They aren't treating it any differently. They have already started reaching out to Total Rewards members who live in the region.

 

I don't doubt for a fact that the Horseshoe will be wildly successful when it opens. The issue is when it has competition. It will have to step it up with the best amenities, comps, etc. in the market. As it stands now, I believe that the Horseshoe lacks amenities. The lack of a directly connected hotel, restaurants, nightclubs, etc. could very hurt them if another casino comes in the market. That was the mistake Greektown made. They figured people would rather eat in Greektown neighborhood restaurants than a buffet at Motor City. They were wrong. Gamblers preferred everything under one roof with top notch amenities. Like Horseshoe plans to do, Greektown allowed local business to be part of their comp program. That was a smart move but it still didn't make up for their lack of amenities compared to their rivals. Build a great spa, have nightclubs, lounges, because if Hard Rock one ups them in those categories, it could be tough sledding. I don't think the Cleveland market is any different than any other gaming market in this country, no matter where the casino is located. Keep it the best in market and you'll be number one. Its as simple as that.

Maybe all of those amenities will be part of Phase II.  However, I am not sure I want a casino with all those amenities.  I think that would hurt the local places downtown.

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

 

 

 

You cannot compare Vegas of Atlantic City casinos to the casinos that have been built in the last 10-15 years.  So please take them out of the equation.  We're talking about the target audience for Cleveland's downtown urban casino versus other "city center" urban casinos and the only casino that fits that is Harrah's in NoLa.

 

What makes you think younger people do not gamble enough?

Slots are not where casinos make the most cash.  Table games, Black Jack and craps are the largest income generators.

 

In addition our casino is not a "black hole" like most Vegas/AC casinos.

 

The Cosmo is a brand new casino, not 15 years old. It was explicitly built to lure what they called the "creative class", a group that largely ignored Vegas. They've done good luring those people and many of Cosmo's visitors are new to the city. But they learned what every other casino already knew, they don't gamble as much and when they do, its at the tables which on a whole aren't as profitable as slots. Income and profit are two different things. An exception is baccarat but I doubt that's gonna be big in Cleveland since we lack a large wealthy Asian population.

 

I'll end with this. I've studied casino gaming so I think I have a good grasp on how casinos work. I've met many of the people who are running the Horseshoe and sat in meetings with them. There's a reason that they came from Joliet, Hammond, Atlantic City, Missouri and Tunica. They expect this casino to draw the same people that any other casino does. The same demographics, etc. They aren't treating it any differently. They have already started reaching out to Total Rewards members who live in the region.

 

I don't doubt for a fact that the Horseshoe will be wildly successful when it opens. The issue is when it has competition. It will have to step it up with the best amenities, comps, etc. in the market. As it stands now, I believe that the Horseshoe lacks amenities. The lack of a directly connected hotel, restaurants, nightclubs, etc. could very hurt them if another casino comes in the market. That was the mistake Greektown made. They figured people would rather eat in Greektown neighborhood restaurants than a buffet at Motor City. They were wrong. Gamblers preferred everything under one roof with top notch amenities. Like Horseshoe plans to do, Greektown allowed local business to be part of their comp program. That was a smart move but it still didn't make up for their lack of amenities compared to their rivals. Build a great spa, have nightclubs, lounges, because if Hard Rock one ups them in those categories, it could be tough sledding. I don't think the Cleveland market is any different than any other gaming market in this country, no matter where the casino is located. Keep it the best in market and you'll be number one. Its as simple as that.

I was at the opening for the COSMO and have stayed there a number of times.  Have you stayed there?  The cosmo is not a new product to this market.  The Belagio, the Wynn, The Mandalay bay and THE Hotel were already up and running in Vegas.

 

Income and profit are two different things?  You don't say.  Come on don't insult us.

 

Again, you cannot compare a vegas or AC casino to other cities with ONE casino.  PERIOD!

 

For those coming from smaller city to Cleveland this is an upgrade for them.

 

How can you say the property has not direct connected hotel  The Ritz Carlton is within the complex and no further than going from the gaming floor in Vegas to the hotel tower.  And you're missing the point of a casino in the direct heart of the city.  Detroit, did not try to partner with local business, they "compromised" by giving discounts to "customers" which left the partners handcuffed and unable to make a profit which is why most of the local restaurants went out of business. 

 

However, Clevelands dining scene is very different than Detroit's, we have deep rooted, well established restaurants within close proximity to the casino.  The Casino needs these restaurants more than the restaurants need the Casino.

 

I highly doubt we would see another Casino open in Cleveland.  We're using the casino as an amenity to lure tourist to the city and build spin off stand alone businesses, not turn gambling into a local "industry".

 

Um, why wouldn't they start reaching out to local members of their rewards program?  Thats marketing 101.  If the staff had any sense, over the next 3 months, they would market all of MI, sans Detroit, PA (sans Pitts), IN, KY, TN, WV, IN & IL.  And by Labor day they should be going to certain national markets.

 

Again, people coming to our casino, no right off the back it isn't trying to be a "under one roof" business but a part of the urban fabric.  If this is such an issue, why hasn't harrah's in NoLa struggled?

 

So that is what the market research says from this CLEVELAND URBAN casino.  The only benchmark is Harrah's in NoLA and the majority of people are young people who are out for a night.  The casino itself has no attached hotels but hotels built up around it.  The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me.

 

I highly doubt we would see another Casino open in Cleveland.  We're using the casino as an amenity to lure tourist to the city and build spin off stand alone businesses, not turn gambling into a local "industry".

 

 

Uhhmm.....isn't this the source of this entire recent debate in this thread?  Opening a Hard Rock slots casino in Northfield (well, OK not Cleveland--but part of the market--ESPECIALLY for regional gamblers).     

 

If that one opens I would place bets (pun intended) that Phase II is pushed back further than it already is.  The entire gambling industry is seeing declining revenues.  I don't foresee some magical growth in this sector as the market is already saturated and being spread further.

All apologies--not sure what happened to my quote of MTS' post above!

 

My comment was this portion:

 

 

Uhhmm.....isn't this the source of this entire recent debate in this thread?  Opening a Hard Rock slots casino in Northfield (well, OK not Cleveland--but part of the market--ESPECIALLY for regional gamblers).     

 

If that one opens I would place bets (pun intended) that Phase II is pushed back further than it already is.  The entire gambling industry is seeing declining revenues.  I don't foresee some magical growth in this sector as the market is already saturated and being spread further.

 

 

Just to answer MTS, I haven't stayed at the Cosmo but I have been there. Their market isn't the same as the others you mentioned outside of Wynn. And to your other point,  Harrah's New Orleans has struggled. It filed for bankruptcy in the 90s and was closed for three years. When it first opened, it was supposed to bring in $33 million a month. It brought in $13 million. In 2001, it filed for bankruptcy a second time. The casino renegotiated its license to cut down on its payments to the state. It no longer pays $100 million, it now pays $60 million to the state or 21 percent of its revenue. That's why its profitable today. Harrah's also spent a good amount of money building a pedestrian mall that's attached to the casino to compete against the suburban casinos. Something like that would be welcomed in Cleveland for obvious reasons but they have to deal with Tower City first. When Harrah's opened it was a mess, they changed everything, put a lot of money into it, to bring its revenues up. It opened barebones and paid a price in the market. They added a hotel and other amenities and their gaming revenue skyrocketed. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

To answer about the hotel, The Ritz Carlton isn't directly connected because Horseshoe can't offer comps there. It is not directly related. They can offer you discounts, but unless something has changed, in my communication with Horseshoe, they can't give out rooms to loyal players as they would in a normal casino development and people who stay there can't earn TR points. Once the Ritz is directly controlled by Rock Ohio and drops the Ritz franchise or there's a new franchise agreement, that can change. Now, again, that may have changed, but that was my understanding in the past.

 

The two most urban neighborhood casinos in this country have both filed for bankruptcy one time or another. My point is that being in a vibrant neighborhood does not mean guaranteed success. Not if you have competition in the burbs or an easy access location. A casino in Northfield is competition. I'm not sure how anyone can say otherwise. Its like saying that Tower City could fend off Beachwood because it was downtown and in a historic building. We know how that ended up. Unless you offer a good experience, you will lose customers wherever you are located. If Hard Rock offers a better experience then it will reap the rewards just like suburban shopping malls did. Horseshoe needs to stay unique and offer a better experience. Its that simple. I don't think you'd ever get to the point of the Horseshoe going bankrupt, etc.. The casino market here is too small but a casino in Northfield could certainly impact their revenues. There's also the question of what Caesars decides to do with Thistledown.

 

Just to answer MTS, I haven't stayed at the Cosmo but I have been there. Their market isn't the same as the others you mentioned outside of Wynn. And to your other point,  Harrah's New Orleans has struggled. It filed for bankruptcy in the 90s and was closed for three years. When it first opened, it was supposed to bring in $33 million a month. It brought in $13 million. In 2001, it filed for bankruptcy a second time. The casino renegotiated its license to cut down on its payments to the state. It no longer pays $100 million, it now pays $60 million to the state or 21 percent of its revenue. That's why its profitable today. Harrah's also spent a good amount of money building a pedestrian mall that's attached to the casino to compete against the suburban casinos. Something like that would be welcomed in Cleveland for obvious reasons but they have to deal with Tower City first. When Harrah's opened it was a mess, they changed everything, put a lot of money into it, to bring its revenues up. It opened barebones and paid a price in the market. They added a hotel and other amenities and their gaming revenue skyrocketed. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

To answer about the hotel, The Ritz Carlton isn't directly connected because Horseshoe can't offer comps there. It is not directly related. They can offer you discounts, but unless something has changed, in my communication with Horseshoe, they can't give out rooms to loyal players as they would in a normal casino development and people who stay there can't earn TR points. Once the Ritz is directly controlled by Rock Ohio and drops the Ritz franchise or there's a new franchise agreement, that can change. Now, again, that may have changed, but that was my understanding in the past.

 

The two most urban neighborhood casinos in this country have both filed for bankruptcy one time or another. My point is that being in a vibrant neighborhood does not mean guaranteed success. Not if you have competition in the burbs or an easy access location. A casino in Northfield is competition. I'm not sure how anyone can say otherwise. Its like saying that Tower City could fend off Beachwood because it was downtown and in a historic building. We know how that ended up. Unless you offer a good experience, you will lose customers wherever you are located. If Hard Rock offers a better experience then it will reap the rewards just like suburban shopping malls did. Horseshoe needs to stay unique and offer a better experience. Its that simple. I don't think you'd ever get to the point of the Horseshoe going bankrupt, etc.. The casino market here is too small but a casino in Northfield could certainly impact their revenues. There's also the question of what Caesars decides to do with Thistledown.

 

 

BS.  The hotels I mentioned at the direct competition of the Cosmo.  In 2001 it had to close.  There is no pedestrian mall or hotel attached to Harrahs.  Unless you're calling the walkway between the parking garages and the hotel a "pedestrian" walkway.

 

The Ritz-Carlton was bought by Gilberts group so that they can offer comps, as stated in the press release.  I fear this mean we may lose the R-C flag due to this.

 

As I said before this will be a unique experience in the heart of downtown.  Well have to agree to disagree.

The pedestrian mall I'm referring to is Fulton Street Mall. It connects the hotel, casino and parking garages. Along the mall, they have restaurants with patios and outdoor entrances along with entrances that are directly connected to the casino. They also have festivals and street performers along the mall. When Gilbert and Caesars talk about having storefronts and restaurants connected to the street, I'm sure this is where he got his inspiration. The way Fulton Street is setup, you can dine at Ruth's Chris or go to a club without ever setting foot in the casino. It feels like part of the city. Something similar in Cleveland would be awesome. That would make the Horseshoe unique. The sooner phase two comes, the better.

The pedestrian mall I'm referring to is Fulton Street Mall. It connects the hotel, casino and parking garages. Along the mall, they have restaurants with patios and outdoor entrances along with entrances that are directly connected to the casino. They also have festivals and street performers along the mall. When Gilbert and Caesars talk about having storefronts and restaurants connected to the street, I'm sure this is where he got his inspiration. The way Fulton Street is setup, you can dine at Ruth's Chris or go to a club without ever setting foot in the casino. It feels like part of the city. Something similar in Cleveland would be awesome. That would make the Horseshoe unique. The sooner phase two comes, the better.

 

That "pedestrian mall" is a failure and I wouldn't want that in Cleveland!  You do need to exit and Cross Poydras to get to the Fulton St.  Prospect & Euclid already connect Tower City to Euclid, the Gateway and Warehouse District areas.  We don't need to build a faux walkway.  Both Gateway and WHD have plenty of activities and events that will be of interest to those that not only live downtown but will visit.

question -- is anything going to be done to change the 2:30am to i think 5:30am no booze ohio liquor law? if so, how can they do that that? maybe an exemption for casinos only?

 

im not even sure serving alcohol at those hours is really a problem? except that i cannot see going to the trouble of offering casino customers a very nice casino in the heart of downtown, but then not having something available thats expected like the booze grease that other casinos have. it would be a drawback, but i have no idea how big of one. any latenite gamblers have an opinion on this? sorry if the alcohol topic been discussed to death-- i dont follow this thread too closely.

 

I don't know if anything is in the works to change it, but I like the idea.  I would like to see the laws changed at the state level to allow local governments to establish "entertainment districts" where a special class of liquor license could be issued to allow for later bar hours, or even no mandated closing time at all.

question -- is anything going to be done to change the 2:30am to i think 5:30am no booze ohio liquor law? if so, how can they do that that? maybe an exemption for casinos only?

 

im not even sure serving alcohol at those hours is really a problem? except that i cannot see going to the trouble of offering casino customers a very nice casino in the heart of downtown, but then not having something available thats expected like the booze grease that other casinos have. it would be a drawback, but i have no idea how big of one. any latenite gamblers have an opinion on this? sorry if the alcohol topic been discussed to death-- i dont follow this thread too closely.

 

 

I don't know if anything is in the works to change it, but I like the idea.  I would like to see the laws changed at the state level to allow local governments to establish "entertainment districts" where a special class of liquor license could be issued to allow for later bar hours, or even no mandated closing time at all.

 

MRNYC that is an excellent question.  As a non drinker that is something I didn't even think about.  We definitely need that law to be rolled back, but I don't want open containers on streets like NoLa.

 

The pedestrian mall I'm referring to is Fulton Street Mall. It connects the hotel, casino and parking garages. Along the mall, they have restaurants with patios and outdoor entrances along with entrances that are directly connected to the casino. They also have festivals and street performers along the mall. When Gilbert and Caesars talk about having storefronts and restaurants connected to the street, I'm sure this is where he got his inspiration. The way Fulton Street is setup, you can dine at Ruth's Chris or go to a club without ever setting foot in the casino. It feels like part of the city. Something similar in Cleveland would be awesome. That would make the Horseshoe unique. The sooner phase two comes, the better.

 

 

That "pedestrian mall" is a failure and I wouldn't want that in Cleveland!  You do need to exit and Cross Poydras to get to the Fulton St.  Prospect & Euclid already connect Tower City to Euclid, the Gateway and Warehouse District areas.  We don't need to build a faux walkway.  Both Gateway and WHD have plenty of activities and events that will be of interest to those that not only live downtown but will visit.

 

 

I don't consider something that has been expanded multiple times a "failure". Besides that, it was such a success that Caesars is building the same thing in Las Vegas. Anything that promotes people walking around an urban area, shopping and dining is ok with me.

 

But here's the real million dollar question - what will Horseshoe do to get people out of the casino and onto the streets? I have no idea what they are doing in Cincinnati but supposedly both casinos are going to be a part of the urban fabric. But how are they different than any other casino? Yes, they are downtown. In the case of Cleveland's, its in a beautiful historic building. But this casino will still have its own bars, its own restaurants, parking structure, etc. Why will the average suburbanite who valets the car, walks across the street (or skywalk if it ever gets built), goes to the coat check and gambles for a few hours ever leave the casino? The casino and  for that matter, Tower City will have everything they probably want. There's little reason to walk down to East 4th or West 6th unless theres something specifically they are going for. And let's face it, most suburbanites are not wired to walk through the city. They will take the easy route that's most comfortable for them. Will I walk to those places to eat? You bet, but the bigger question is will everyone else?

 

If Horseshoe is sincere about creating urban vitality, they need to promote the city. Promote the WHD and the great restaurants downtown. Offering comps for neighborhood restaurants is nice and all but there's no guarantee that people gambling will leave to go eat there. That's my number one concern. I LOVE the location. But I am very cynical on it bringing much vitality to the streets when you're trying to build skywalks. That says one thing to me - you want people to come in and then leave without ever leaving the place. Building parking structures, skywalks and ignoring RTA is NOT the way to create vitality and street life. Is a casino better than an empty building? Absolutely. Gilbert has said all of the right things. Just some of his actions don't match his words which leads to my cynicism.

I would not hold my breath for the Horseshoe folks to make it inviting for people to go out into the neighborhood.

The pedestrian mall I'm referring to is Fulton Street Mall. It connects the hotel, casino and parking garages. Along the mall, they have restaurants with patios and outdoor entrances along with entrances that are directly connected to the casino. They also have festivals and street performers along the mall. When Gilbert and Caesars talk about having storefronts and restaurants connected to the street, I'm sure this is where he got his inspiration. The way Fulton Street is setup, you can dine at Ruth's Chris or go to a club without ever setting foot in the casino. It feels like part of the city. Something similar in Cleveland would be awesome. That would make the Horseshoe unique. The sooner phase two comes, the better.

 

 

That "pedestrian mall" is a failure and I wouldn't want that in Cleveland!  You do need to exit and Cross Poydras to get to the Fulton St.  Prospect & Euclid already connect Tower City to Euclid, the Gateway and Warehouse District areas.  We don't need to build a faux walkway.  Both Gateway and WHD have plenty of activities and events that will be of interest to those that not only live downtown but will visit.

 

 

I don't consider something that has been expanded multiple times a "failure". Besides that, it was such a success that Caesars is building the same thing in Las Vegas. Anything that promotes people walking around an urban area, shopping and dining is ok with me.

 

But here's the real million dollar question - what will Horseshoe do to get people out of the casino and onto the streets? I have no idea what they are doing in Cincinnati but supposedly both casinos are going to be a part of the urban fabric. But how are they different than any other casino? Yes, they are downtown. In the case of Cleveland's, its in a beautiful historic building. But this casino will still have its own bars, its own restaurants, parking structure, etc. Why will the average suburbanite who valets the car, walks across the street (or skywalk if it ever gets built), goes to the coat check and gambles for a few hours ever leave the casino? The casino and  for that matter, Tower City will have everything they probably want. There's little reason to walk down to East 4th or West 6th unless theres something specifically they are going for. And let's face it, most suburbanites are not wired to walk through the city. They will take the easy route that's most comfortable for them. Will I walk to those places to eat? You bet, but the bigger question is will everyone else?

 

If Horseshoe is sincere about creating urban vitality, they need to promote the city. Promote the WHD and the great restaurants downtown. Offering comps for neighborhood restaurants is nice and all but there's no guarantee that people gambling will leave to go eat there. That's my number one concern. I LOVE the location. But I am very cynical on it bringing much vitality to the streets when you're trying to build skywalks. That says one thing to me - you want people to come in and then leave without ever leaving the place. Building parking structures, skywalks and ignoring RTA is NOT the way to create vitality and street life. Is a casino better than an empty building? Absolutely. Gilbert has said all of the right things. Just some of his actions don't match his words which leads to my cynicism.

 

WHAT are you talking about?? Phase 1 has a food court and a buffet. That's it. The casino is going to be giving vouchers to downtown restaurants and establishments to their customers. This has all been said publicly. It's like you're not even talking about the same project as the rest of us.

It will have 3 restaurants, a massive buffet and Tower City. You're forgetting that Tower City is directly attached and management there has already said that national dining chains have contacted them about leasing spaces. The bulk of casino patrons will eat at the buffet or in Tower City. It's the safe and easy thing to do for most suburbanites. Tower City sucked the life off of the streets before. It can easily do so again. One way to help avoid that would've been simple - dont have a food court or buffet in the casino. People wanna eat? Let them walk to East 4th. Is that unorthodox? Yes. But you take away the competition and guarantee some street vitality.

are we underestimating the patrons? my mother likes to gamble. When she goes to presque isle, she might eat at the buffet; when she goes to niagra falls, she eats at places in town.  I think we are painting these 50 year old white women with a broad brush. 

Also, i am in college and people who go to kent are excited about the Cleveland casino. These are people who wouldn't dream of going to racinos, so i agree with MTS' statement that "The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me."

 

 

are we underestimating the patrons? my mother likes to gamble. When she goes to presque isle, she might eat at the buffet; when she goes to niagra falls, she eats at places in town.  I think we are painting these 50 year old white women with a broad brush. 

Also, i am in college and people who go to kent are excited about the Cleveland casino. These are people who wouldn't dream of going to racinos, so i agree with MTS' statement that "The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me."

 

 

 

Wait a minute--what restaurants in Niagara Falls does your mother patronize?  And does she walk to them?  Because the immediate neighborhood surrounding Seneca Niagara has completely DIED since the casino opened. 

Canadian side

Canadian side

 

Ahhh!  Big difference!    Like night and day actually.

are we underestimating the patrons? my mother likes to gamble. When she goes to presque isle, she might eat at the buffet; when she goes to niagra falls, she eats at places in town.  I think we are painting these 50 year old white women with a broad brush. 

Also, i am in college and people who go to kent are excited about the Cleveland casino. These are people who wouldn't dream of going to racinos, so i agree with MTS' statement that "The idea that only old white 50 something women will visit is BS to me."

 

 

 

Once again, read back through the thread.  The over 50 white women (I assume your mother, but don't want to predict race) crowd is a HUGE component of the casino target demo.  Did I ever say the ONLY component?  No.  But in a market like Cleveland the Horseshoe will certainly depend on them for overall success.  If a racino draws even 50% of that demo from downtown, the Horseshoe will be affected. 

I'm not worried about college kids coming downtown and walking to the WHD. Chances are, they already do that and a new casino may bring them down there more often. I'm talking about John & Mary from Strongsville who rarely come into the city. And when they do, they park in a structure, walk to the arena/theater, and walk right out. The casino needs to help end that practice. For Cleveland's downtown to have a rebirth, it needs people like that to walk around the city and patronize the businesses. Will the hosts at the Horseshoe actively promote their dining partners or not? That's my question. You can have a bunch of dining partners but if its easier to go to the buffet or Morton's, most will do that. Can the casino get people to walk to the Chophouse instead and will it make the effort? That remains to be seen. If its done like other Caesars complexes, TR members receive discounted prices when they eat at the casino to help keep people there. Is the Horseshoe gonna do that too? If it does, that gives them an advantage. Why eat at Jake's, when I can save a few bucks by eating at Corky & Lenny's inside and earn TR points at the same time? 

 

Again, I don't doubt that the casino will be successful. I'm just wondering if its really going to be as "urban" as Gilbert likes to claim or if that's just marketing. I think phase 2 will be a better judge of that since it will have street side storefronts and restaurants. That can help change the vibe of the city and offset some of the typical casino design that keeps people locked up inside.

It will have 3 restaurants, a massive buffet and Tower City. You're forgetting that Tower City is directly attached and management there has already said that national dining chains have contacted them about leasing spaces. The bulk of casino patrons will eat at the buffet or in Tower City. It's the safe and easy thing to do for most suburbanites. Tower City sucked the life off of the streets before. It can easily do so again. One way to help avoid that would've been simple - dont have a food court or buffet in the casino. People wanna eat? Let them walk to East 4th. Is that unorthodox? Yes. But you take away the competition and guarantee some street vitality.

Its a FOOD COURT. A food court and a buffet isn't gonna kill East 4th. Come on.

It will have 3 restaurants, a massive buffet and Tower City. You're forgetting that Tower City is directly attached and management there has already said that national dining chains have contacted them about leasing spaces. The bulk of casino patrons will eat at the buffet or in Tower City. It's the safe and easy thing to do for most suburbanites. Tower City sucked the life off of the streets before. It can easily do so again. One way to help avoid that would've been simple - dont have a food court or buffet in the casino. People wanna eat? Let them walk to East 4th. Is that unorthodox? Yes. But you take away the competition and guarantee some street vitality.

Its a FOOD COURT. A food court and a buffet isn't gonna kill East 4th. Come on.

 

Where did I say that it was gonna kill East 4th? I didn't. Its an attraction already and doesn't need the casino to survive and prosper. Same goes for the WHD. But if a 400 seat buffet isn't trying to keep visitors inside, then whats it doing there? That's why its there. If the skywalk is built, it will directly start right where the buffet and food court is located. That's not a coincidence. Its setup that you can gamble, get hungry, go eat and then walk through a skywalk and go home. Could they make it any easier? That doesn't sound very urban to me.

I find it difficult to blame gilbert for this.  They do have to protect their investment. Hotels have a bar and restaurant and malls have a food court.  At some point, Horseshoe needs amenities that are expected from an establishment like this.  At least they are hooked up with local food places so they get to wet their beaks. 

1. Gilbert is not responsible for Cleveland's rebirth. He's in this to make money,  not ensure we get more retail along Euclid or that restaurants prosper on W6/9.

 

2. Many many of the casino visitors wouldn't come down to downtown Cleveland ordinarily, so they wouldn't be down there to spend money in other establishments in the first place. You can't lose what you never had.

 

3. A skywalk is appropriate for elderly or disabled in a snow-heavy, cold city

 

4. The casino is a uniquely located feature of downtown. It's no different than McNulty putting in another bar on W25. It doesn't cannibalize business but rather enhances it, making the entire area a draw. Christ,  my sisters and parents and their friends are all talking about going down to check it out. What else has garnishes so much hype? The rock? tower city?

 

5. Gilbert deserves our faith. I dont see the Ratners or Jacobs doing jack for downtown lately. At least he's putting his money where his mouth is. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Isn't it nice having a successful businessman actually take an interest in the city??

 

6. People are talking about this downtown casino in Chicago nonstop, and how exciting it is for Cleve. This could be a regional flats level draw, especially if phase 2 comes to fruition

 

So stop worrying of xo loses business because of the casino. It is totally illogical.

 

 

I suppose you have the same negative feelings about Progressive Field and Browns Stadium.  They both sell all kinds of food and drink at outrageous prices.  Neither one is saying "lets get people to eat and drink elsewhere".

Whatever the future holds, we are about to find out real soon when the property opens in May.  I'm sure if the casino is handing out tens of thousands of vouchers and the local restaurant owners aren't seeing any return, they will voice their opinions!

 

 

 

 

I'm not worried about college kids coming downtown and walking to the WHD. Chances are, they already do that and a new casino may bring them down there more often. I'm talking about John & Mary from Strongsville who rarely come into the city. And when they do, they park in a structure, walk to the arena/theater, and walk right out. The casino needs to help end that practice. For Cleveland's downtown to have a rebirth, it needs people like that to walk around the city and patronize the businesses. Will the hosts at the Horseshoe actively promote their dining partners or not? That's my question. You can have a bunch of dining partners but if its easier to go to the buffet or Morton's, most will do that. Can the casino get people to walk to the Chophouse instead and will it make the effort? That remains to be seen. If its done like other Caesars complexes, TR members receive discounted prices when they eat at the casino to help keep people there. Is the Horseshoe gonna do that too? If it does, that gives them an advantage. Why eat at Jake's, when I can save a few bucks by eating at Corky & Lenny's inside and earn TR points at the same time? 

 

Again, I don't doubt that the casino will be successful. I'm just wondering if its really going to be as "urban" as Gilbert likes to claim or if that's just marketing. I think phase 2 will be a better judge of that since it will have street side storefronts and restaurants. That can help change the vibe of the city and offset some of the typical casino design that keeps people locked up inside.

 

Why don't you give potential patrons the benefit of doubt.  The casino is opening in warm weather, I would speculate, that those who rarely come downtown or haven't been in a long while, will venture outside of TC.

 

As with NoLa, the only Casino we can compare, did the Casino hurt French Quarter restaurants?  Like the FQ, the WHD and East 4th are built up and are strong stand alone dining destinations.  Hopefully, the Casino vouchers exchanged for meals at restaurants wont negatively affect said restaurants bottom line.

 

Again, Cleveland folks are savvy and along with regional visitors will most likely make it a night on the town so eating inside the casino will most likely be a last option.  I can see the buffet being a destination for 20-somethings on a budget.  Or potentially, starting a weekend Brunch Buffet destination.

 

1. Gilbert is not responsible for Cleveland's rebirth. He's in this to make money,  not ensure we get more retail along Euclid or that restaurants prosper on W6/9.

 

2. Many many of the casino visitors wouldn't come down to downtown Cleveland ordinarily, so they wouldn't be down there to spend money in other establishments in the first place. You can't lose what you never had.

 

3. A skywalk is appropriate for elderly or disabled in a snow-heavy, cold city

 

4. The casino is a uniquely located feature of downtown. It's no different than McNulty putting in another bar on W25. It doesn't cannibalize business but rather enhances it, making the entire area a draw. Christ,  my sisters and parents and their friends are all talking about going down to check it out. What else has garnishes so much hype? The rock? tower city?

 

5. Gilbert deserves our faith. I dont see the Ratners or Jacobs doing jack for downtown lately. At least he's putting his money where his mouth is. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Isn't it nice having a successful businessman actually take an interest in the city??

 

6. People are talking about this downtown casino in Chicago nonstop, and how exciting it is for Cleve. This could be a regional flats level draw, especially if phase 2 comes to fruition

 

So stop worrying of xo loses business because of the casino. It is totally illogical.

 

 

We rarely agree, but I agree with this sans the skywalk.

 

 

Interesting article in last Sunday's Columbus Dispatch about Casino Gaming in Ohio (link below):

 

Dispatch: Can Ohio sustain all these casinos?

 

As the article points out, it was only five months ago that Ohio had zero casinos.  We've now gone from zero to three casinos (Cleveland, Toledo and Columbus) and one racino (Scioto Downs in Columbus).  With many more on the way - starting with Cincinnati's Horseshoe Casino opening next year and six additional racinos starting next year.  Below is a map of the casinos and racinos opened or scheduled to open throughout the state. 

 

It think the main concern of the article is not the casinos themselves, but the combination of casinos and racinos. The four city casinos may have been one thing, but add in the seven racinos that are also opening and all of a sudden you're up to 11. And that doesn't even include the hundreds to "Spin 2 Wins" and "Internet Cafes" around the state.

http://nextcity.org/forefront/view/downtown-roulette

 

Great read on the Ohio casinos.

Ohio bet on gambling didn’t meet expectations

Posted: 12:00 a.m. Friday, Oct. 23, 2015

By J. Scott Trubey - The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

 

leveland — Gamblers stream from a parking deck across a glass bridge over Prospect Avenue to the floor of the Horseshoe Casino. After they’ve struck it big, or emptied their wallets, they stream back across the bridge, climb into their cars and drive home.

 

Few seem to set foot on the street outside.

 

“People who go to the casino come downtown and gamble and then go home to the suburbs,” said Gabe Wojnarowski, a barista at a nearby coffee shop. Their business, he said, stays inside the casino.

 

Perhaps no state has embraced casino gambling in recent years as much as Ohio. In 2009, voters approved a change in the constitution allowing the Cleveland casino and three others. Ohio separately allowed video slot machines at seven horse tracks throughout the state to fill budget gaps.

 

In just a few years, Ohio went from no casino-style gaming parlors to 11.

 

MORE:

http://www.myajc.com/news/business/ohio-bet-on-gambling-didnt-meet-expectations/nn7sn/

I think some people's expectations were a little out of whack. Of course the casinos did not perform as well as originally anticipated after the state legalized racinos. Of course most people drive in from the suburbs and don't venture out into the surrounding area. On the bright side, the casinos are generating some revenue for cities, and it's not like they made anything worse. In Cincinnati, the casino was built on a former parking lot, and some of the revenue was used to improve streetscapes in nearby Pendleton and Over-the-Rhine. The speculation that prostitution and crime would increase around the casinos has turned out to be wrong.

^Not a single restaurant or other storefront business has appeared nearby since Cincinnati's casino opened several years ago. 

So? Pendleton, OTR, and Downtown are still doing fine and it didn't have a negative effect. Like Travis said, people were overestimating the benefits of the casino, but the reality is that it turned a parking lot into a tax revenue generator and the areas around it are still continuing to thrive.

 

Your assessment is also inaccurate. Pendleton has seen quite a lot of new investment since the casino opened. Not saying (nor do I believe) the casino had anything to do with it, but Nation has opened, multiple offices have moved in, and dozens of new residences have been made or are in the process of being made within a handful of blocks away from it. These probably would have happened regardless but the area around the casino has definitely seen some improvements recently.

^Not a single restaurant or other storefront business has appeared nearby since Cincinnati's casino opened several years ago. 

 

Nation is a pretty popular bar/restaurant that opened in the Broadway Square project in Pendleton and Urbana Cafe is coming soon. Neither of these businesses opened because of the casino, but like I said, Pendleton's streetscape improvements were funded by the casino, and that definitely had an impact on bringing new businesses and residents to Pendleton.