http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1181637215195360.xml&coll=2

 

A 'blue' Flats: Jackson proposes a strip club district

Tuesday, June 12, 2007Susan Vinella and Tom BreckenridgePlain Dealer Reporters

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson on Monday proposed the creation of an adult-entertainment district in the Flats to house up to three strip clubs, possibly including Larry Flynt's Hustler Club.

 

The district, a two-block area east of the Cuyahoga River and within a block of the proposed Canal Basin Park, would allow a move by the Hustler Club as part of a settlement with developer Scott Wolstein.

 

Wolstein is negotiating with property owners to buy all of the land along the east bank of the Flats north of the Main Avenue Bridge, including the Hustler building on Old River Road, for a $230 million housing and retail project.

Looks like an unfortunate side effect of piecing together the east bank.

While I agree that labeling the flats a red light district is not a good idea, it doesn't sound like this will be creating too many more strip clubs, just moving them.  I haven't been there, but the area around Diamond's isn't very residential, is it?  Maybe designating a strip club area will bring more regulation and control the problems better?

While I agree that labeling the flats a red light district is not a good idea, it doesn't sound like this will be creating too many more strip clubs, just moving them.  I haven't been there, but the area around Diamond's isn't very residential, is it?  Maybe designating a strip club area will bring more regulation and control the problems better?

 

Agreed.  At first I was a bit shocked but I think it could be a lot worse.  The effect on some of the other non adult businesses right there is my major concern though. 

LOL, I thought the reason the city shut the old flats down was because they felt it was getting too seedy.  To allow a "strip club" district would be a contradiction of epic proportions!  Unless, of course, the old flats were killed for another reason.

Well, the businesses that got shut down were regular bars that had underage drinking and people falling into the river.  It didn't really have anything to do with strip clubs. 

 

Basically, the way I see it, there are already a couple strip clubs spread out in the flats, and this proposal would move them altogether in a more out of the way section of the flats. 

I am not sure the location is so "out of the way" that is where residents exercise, walk dogs etc. I want to make clear I do not think any existing clubs need to go...they are part of the fabric of the flats. Whenever you concentrate smut in a residential neighborhood (wake up people that is what the flats is becoming) it is not a good thing.  I used to live in Tampa (a huge strip club town) and while a couple clubs near each other was no big deal, a concentration brought seediness. Next thing you know there are lower end clubs, peepshows, hookers, drug dealing, you name it. Even if there is no violent crime associated with a string of clubs, the reputation of the area will be that of disrespect....not high end home ownership which is what the city wants. Does the Mayor and Cimperman  really think professionals want to have a hooker leaning in their car while the swing bring is open?? Again I make no judgments here about strip clubs or even hookers -but who the hell wants to own a home in red light district?  I go to nearly all neighborhood meetings and it is funny (meaning not funny at all) Cimperman never brought this up. He supports it? Why don't we put it in his Tremont nabe?

I am not sure the location is so "out of the way" that is where residents exercise, walk dogs etc. I want to make clear I do not think any existing clubs need to go...they are part of the fabric of the flats. Whenever you concentrate smut in a residential neighborhood (wake up people that is what the flats is becoming) it is not a good thing.  I used to live in Tampa (a huge strip club town) and while a couple clubs near each other was no big deal, a concentration brought seediness. Next thing you know there are lower end clubs, peepshows, hookers, drug dealing, you name it. Even if there is no violent crime associated with a string of clubs, the reputation of the area will be that of disrespect....not high end home ownership which is what the city wants. Does the Mayor and Cimperman  really think professionals want to have a hooker leaning in their car while the swing bring is open?? Again I make no judgments here about strip clubs or even hookers -but who the hell wants to own a home in red light district?  I go to nearly all neighborhood meetings and it is funny (meaning not funny at all) Cimperman never brought this up. He supports it? Why don't we put it in his Tremont nabe?

Well, the businesses that got shut down were regular bars that had underage drinking and people falling into the river.  It didn't really have anything to do with strip clubs. 

 

Basically, the way I see it, there are already a couple strip clubs spread out in the flats, and this proposal would move them altogether in a more out of the way section of the flats. 

 

Is this "block" really that bad?  I COMPLETELY understand MsPeabody's concern. Its more like a block instead of a "district".

 

Lets take New Orleans for example.  There are plenty of peep shows, strip clubs in the french quarter and a large residential base.

 

 

well maybe he's doing whatever it takes to get them the hell outta the east bank so wolsteins project can move forward. if it makes everyone happy im all for it. the place where they would be placed is sort of outta the way from everything, its sort of isolated. so for the time being i think its a good move.

so why should wolstiens future yuppies not have to put up with a strip club (the clubs could move it somewhere else on the east bank) and we should? a " district" no less!

well, do you think they want to wait. from the time their building is torn down till a new one is put up, that could be over a year. time is money. they need a solution now. if they want to come back and lease from wolstein after the project is done im sure thats up to them.

so why should wolstiens future yuppies not have to put up with a strip club (the clubs could move it somewhere else on the east bank) and we should? a " district" no less!

 

I think technically the Diamond's Men's club is on the east bank.

If they do go ahead with this district, let's just hope that there is some world-class signage.

If they do go ahead with this district, let's just hope that there is some world-class signage.

and dancers

Why would they put strip clubs in such a desirable area? I'd relocate all that stuff near some of the warehouses on E. 18th or something.

Why would they put strip clubs in such a desirable area? I'd relocate all that stuff near some of the warehouses on E. 18th or something.

 

Same difference.  What are the folks that work near the PD or live in the artist district to think.  No matter where this is moved, its a "hot button issue".

This is what they should have put where SYC is going.

so why should wolstiens future yuppies not have to put up with a strip club (the clubs could move it somewhere else on the east bank) and we should? a " district" no less!

 

I think technically the Diamond's Men's club is on the east bank.

it is, but it it closer to residential (owned) than a lot of the other strip clubs. personally I do not care about one club..just a bunch. I did find out they need to change the zoning to do this and there would "just" be 3 clubs. still dont like it. that crooked river building is right by the swing bridge where people are stopped. 3231, would it be ok to put all the clubs by your house as long as they have a cool sign? if so I will make sure and let cimperman know when I meet with him.   :wink:

Someone should consider reopening the old Aquilon (Lift, Whiskey, SmartBar, etc) That place would make an excellent adult club.

To me, the relocation of three strip clubs to one area does not constitute a "strip club district".  If you want to see a bad, seedy strip club district, go to the Block in downtown Baltimore.  Things would never deteriorate to that. The much bigger issue here is that why would you relocation a homeless shelter to where a strip club is and pay for it (Stage 2)? Why bring the homeless closer to the downtown core, where you are trying to build residential population? I looked at reserve square the other day and there were homeless and bums and beggars everywhere. I have lived across a number of cities and the concentration of vagrants in the e 13th area is ridiculous. Why are they trying to further exacerbate the problem?  I do believe in helping the poor, but where you do it makes all the difference. They should have found a location a little further out away from downtown to do this. This homless shelter is a only going to be a block from Reserve Square. Seriously, who was responsible for making this decision? Why does the city bother to promote itself if its just going to be homeless shelters down the street from apartments buildings where they are making a ten million dollar investment? Am I the only one that sees this as a paradox (or lack of common sense)?

To me, the relocation of three strip clubs to one area does not constitute a "strip club district".  If you want to see a bad, seedy strip club district, go to the Block in downtown Baltimore.  Things would never deteriorate to that. The much bigger issue here is that why would you relocation a homeless shelter to where a strip club is and pay for it (Stage 2)? Why bring the homeless closer to the downtown core, where you are trying to build residential population? I looked at reserve square the other day and there were homeless and bums and beggars everywhere. I have lived across a number of cities and the concentration of vagrants in the e 13th area is ridiculous. Why are they trying to further exacerbate the problem?  I do believe in helping the poor, but where you do it makes all the difference. They should have found a location a little further out away from downtown to do this. This homless shelter is a only going to be a block from Reserve Square. Seriously, who was responsible for making this decision? Why does the city bother to promote itself if its just going to be homeless shelters down the street from apartments buildings where they are making a ten million dollar investment? Am I the only one that sees this as a paradox (or lack of common sense)?

 

Everywhere???  it's your opinion, but I think that is a bit over dramtic.  There are not homeless people "everywhere".  I see you're new here and you might want to read some other post on the subject. 

 

this strip club, like a jail, juvenile, liquor store, etc. is a NIMBY issue that nobody wants, but it has to go somewhere.  It makes no difference where its located.  I completely understand Peabody's concern.  But she is an involved neighbor and no doubt she along with her neighbors chime in to those business owner and her elected officials.

 

who is this "they" you speak of?

 

So what if is strip club or a condo is there.  The strip club is not the real issue the issue is how to manage those businesses once they are operating. Community involvement and watchdogs; guidelines for said business to follow and be governed; have them become an active member of the community they are located in.  That way they are vested in realize in order to do good business they also need to be a good neighbor.

 

I agree with people when they have constructive criticisms, but come up with ways to correct situations instead of passing the buck.

 

 

MTS you are right about one big  issue being about how the problems are managed. Cleveland PD has their hands full as is...they cannot even keep up with the gangster night down here (the origin of the murders in the flats on sunday nights). Are they going to care about streetwalkers and drunks? I defy any HOMEOWNER to say oh yeah sounds great for property values, build it next to my place! I work in social services so I have a soft spot for shelters, rehab centers what have you...I think they are necessary for society and should not be blocked;however they do not need to concentrated together either. A concentration of strip clubs just isn't needed (make all the the jokes you want, but we are being grown up here, right?) This is  just a result of the cities obsession with making the Wolstien project happen...he is dumping his trash in my yard so he can have the things we hope for (bookstore, theater etc) these businesses are going to be less likely to populate other parts of the flats if Larry Flints Hustler Bar et al is next door.

Everywhere???  it's your opinion, but I think that is a bit over dramtic.  There are not homeless people "everywhere".  I see you're new here and you might want to read some other post on the subject. 

 

who is this "they" you speak of?

 

 

 

Sorry I was being overdramatic- using hyperbole I guess- but it is a bit unnerving to have people hanging around the corners and asking you for change (and not just one time!).

 

As for who are they?- I am referring to those that made the decision to pay for the strip club to move and put the homeless shelter there. I know in Pittsburgh homeless shelters and halfways houses must come before a review committee before opening and I know of circumstances where their "opening" has been denied due to community concerns (such as one in Bloomfield).

Also, I believe Pittsburgh has laws limiting the number of check cashing establishments within city limits and also restricts the installation of steel bars on commercial businesses. Although the steel bar thing seems more of an east coast phenomena than midwest, it would be nice to see greater regulation of properties in the Cleveland area.

I agree that oversight of a "strip district" is key, but they do draw an unwelcome crowd. Does anyone remember Brookpark Road in the 1980s? Or Prospect Avenue in the 1970s? Then there was the Love Nest at East 105th and Euclid in the 1960s. And Short Vincent in the 1940s-1970s. Today, one of the worst streets is Storer Avenue in Councilman Santiago's ward (West 25th still has its share of strip bars too).

 

Point is, all of these are/were concentrations of sleaze bars that attracted drugs, hookers and other vices. They all killed the surrounding areas. Thus, I certainly share Peabody's concern. Ever look at how close the proposed "strip district" is to Stonebridge? And how would someone get to that area from the West Side? One way is Columbus Road hill, but it will be closed to through traffic for three years starting in 2011 or 2012 so the lift bridge can be replaced ($40 million project). So how will the traffic get to the strip district during that time? Through the Stonebridge area to reach the Center Street swing bridge.

 

If this is such a great idea, then put the strip district on Scranton Peninsula! After all, conventioneers could reach the district from the new convention center at Tower City Center via the proposed walkway over the river! If city officials won't do it because they expect opposition from Forest City Enterprises (a major contributor to Jackson's mayoral campaign), then shouldn't they expect opposition from other stakeholders at any other location to this dumb idea?

My first thought when I saw the title was that Cleveland was trying to recreate Pittsburgh's Strip District in the Flats... which is an old warehouse area that now features a lively gourmet food marketplace, ethnic restaurants and nightclubs... and one strip club (which I think might be out of business now). 

 

http://www.pittsburghneighborhoodtours.com/pr13/neighborhoods/default.asp?nHood=7

 

 

Anyways... Frank Jackson's idea seems bold and innovative.

Bold, yes. But how is it innovative when there have been concentrations of strip bars in this city before (see my post above)? And when have these concentrations produced anything but focused efforts by the city to shut down these nightclubs because of the spinoff criminal activity they attracted?

 

When the phrase "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it" was formulated, it must've been for moments like this.

KJP will you write our story?  There is so much to this whole thing-the coddling and catering to Wolstien at all costs...the costs to people who were lured into the city and are trying to build a community only to have the emerging community treated again like a dumping ground (ie brookpark). There is also the impact to the long time businesses that stuck it out and may have to relocate b/c of this. You think if they tried to do this in Westlake people would not go ape $hit? The city wants good activists citizens but I feel if we cry foul we are dismissed as trouble makers. The problem with the city of Cleveland is they are so used to knocking around poor, disenfranchised people that if someone comes around to sticks up to them they can get a real attitude.

look i haven't read everyone's comments,

 

but assuming naked people aren't running around the streets, what's the big freaking deal?

it is not a moral issue, rather  an issue somewhat of quality of life-traffic,drugs, whores and drunks are fun at a bachelor party but not in your backyard. Also we are trying to showcase arguably one of the most beautiful, unique places in Cleveland..does Larry Flints club really do this? finally unless someone is a moron- if you owned property would you really think this is a good thing for your nabe? Seriously now?  Strip clubs have their place...in abandoned industrial hoods...not here.

it is not a moral issue, rather  an issue somewhat of quality of life-traffic,drugs, whores and drunks are fun at a bachelor party but not in your backyard.

 

sounds like the warehouse district to me (yes i know you don't live in WHD)

I'm indifferent about this.  Without it being built or seeing it, how could one automatically assume this will be bad?    Past situations don't necessarily mean this "district" will follow the same path.

 

Personaly, I dont understand why the community wasn't informed or involved. 

 

Maybe the business owners and the current residents & business owners can meet so that everyone knows whats going on and work to elimate or ease any of the residents and current business owners fears.

My gf and I have been to Diamond Mens club. If Christie's and Stage 2 are anything like them, I really can't see anything bad happening to the neighborhood as a result. They are as PG-13 as you can get. the girls wouldn't even do a private dance for my gf- only table dances

In addition, that area around diamond mens club is so deserted anyway, if they want to put 3 strip clubs there, why not? It would have little if any impact on the proposed east bank area or the stonebridge area anyway.

I'm indifferent about this.  Without it being built or seeing it, how could one automatically assume this will be bad?    Past situations don't necessarily mean this "district" will follow the same path.

 

Personaly, I dont understand why the community wasn't informed or involved. 

 

Maybe the business owners and the current residents & business owners can meet so that everyone knows whats going on and work to elimate or ease any of the residents and current business owners fears.

there are community meetings, which I attend. never mentioned. huh I wonder why?

I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, necessarily, but I have to question the location.  The area that is being discussed is only about a hundred yards from Stonebridge, though across the river.  It is hard to imagine that this won't put a pall over the most successful downtown development this city has yet to see happen.  And it's funny that strip clubs are being moved from one developer's project area to the backyard of another developer's project.  Also, I agree with Peabody that this is easily one of the most picturesque parts of Cleveland and deserves a real chance at redevelopment, not to become a dumping ground for undesirable businesses being shunted around the city.

IMO, the occasional strip club mingled about with regular businesses doesn't bother me at all. I was just in DC this past weekend, and that's how they seemed to do it. I don't understand why a concentrated district is being discussed. For some reason that just strikes me as kind of gross.

I think you said it well X.  If they wanted to put this on some other part of that peninsula (somewhere behind Diamond's / farther toward the Columbus Rd. lift bridge), that would seem to make more sense.  But the old Crooked River building is directly on the way over to the west bank and Stonebridge.  You really can't miss it if you're traveling from the east bank to the west, whether by car or by foot. 

PD OpEd piece:

 

Shrewd move

Jackson's plan for an adult-entertainment district in the Flats paves the way for redevelopment, shows welcome leadership

Thursday, June 14, 2007

 

Plain Dealer article removed as it didn't include link.

I was just about to post that. Thanks for posting it, Musky.

 

But was the last sentence in the staff editorial really necessary??

^ Have you forgotten who the city is dealing with?

^^I had the same thought.  How out of place.

I see peabody's frustration. The city is enormous, and they want to stick the the "adult district" -- just giving it a name like that gives it a legitimacy that most any other city would have avoided at all costs -- near a growing residential neighborhood in a city that already has a hard time keeping up it's nice middle-class suburbs. I'm probably biased, though. I feel like seedy businesses like strip clubs should be forced to open where ever the city tells them they can.

I see both sides here. I don't think its a good idea at all to put a few strip clubs next to burgeoning residential area. On the other hand, I don't think that the effects will be so severe. Isn't Stage 2 a pretty small place (looks like it from the outside). I don't see the city paying for a huge expansion for a strip club.

I see both sides here. I don't think its a good idea at all to put a few strip clubs next to burgeoning residential area. On the other hand, I don't think that the effects will be so severe. Isn't Stage 2 a pretty small place (looks like it from the outside). I don't see the city paying for a huge expansion for a strip club.

you never answered my question: do you want this 1000 ft from your home? Why do I deserve any less?

I didn't know that you had asked me a question.

 

But anyways, I wouldn't want this that close to my house.

I would be ok with it knowing there was a river between me and the district, plus a couple of bridges.

You are already within walking distance of two adult clubs - Christies and Diamond Men's Club.  I don't visit these places, but they are higher end establishments that do not permit the type of clientele you are afraid of.  These establishments are NOTHING like those that line W 25th or Brookpark Road.  They are kept in operation by businessmen and convention tourists, not gun toting thugs on their way to Mirage...

 

Yes - I would not want these in my neighborhood either, but then again I did not chose to live in such a 'mixed-use' environment. 

They are kept in operation by businessmen and convention tourists, not gun toting thugs on their way to Mirage...

 

 

That was totally uncalled for!  How do you know a) those patrons are thugs and b) they are gun toting?

 

I've been to the Mirage as well as others on this board and I'm far from a gun toting thug.

I am cool with Christies and Diamonds. they are both respectable and spaced far  apart. I would not like them next to each other. I disagree about some of the clientele of Diamonds being great. I am no spring chicken and have walked and biked around there and been "solicited" on a few occasions. I do not have this happen anywhere else on my walking or bike routes. very creepy. (I am female by the way). Nevertheless their existence of Diamonds and Christie's is part of what makes the flats interesting . Sorry concentrating is bad, bad, bad. We cannot pick and choose which places go in there either.

They are kept in operation by businessmen and convention tourists, not gun toting thugs on their way to Mirage...

 

 

That was totally uncalled for!  How do you know a) those patrons are thugs and b) they are gun toting?

 

I've been to the Mirage as well as others on this board and I'm far from a gun toting thug.

 

no many customers are not, however just in the last year there have been 2 murders associated with customers. let me tell you on Sunday (actually Monday) 3AM, things get really ugly down there.

They are kept in operation by businessmen and convention tourists, not gun toting thugs on their way to Mirage...

 

 

That was totally uncalled for!  How do you know a) those patrons are thugs and b) they are gun toting?

 

I've been to the Mirage as well as others on this board and I'm far from a gun toting thug.

 

Just a guess, but maybe he read this article recently

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/05/gunshot_victim_identified.html

 

Not saying I agree or disagree because honestly i have never been and have no plan to ever go, but the place doesn't have the best reputation.