I havent been in a Skywalk since 2008.

The Indianapolis skywalk system as well a interconnecting building tunnels were one of the key reason Indianapolis was chosen to hold a superbowl. Skywalks have had little inpact on street level business which is vibrant in Indy, but also, Indy has very little street level vacancies. People will patronize main street level retail if the block is relatively full and there is product diversity. That seems to be one thing downtown Cincinnati lacks. It doesn't seem like their has been a concentrated development effort to plan for, and attract, street level retailers, nor does Cincy seem to make the infrastructure effort with wider sidewalk planter beds and attractive lighting that Indy does with an area like Mass ave or Georgia street.

 

Architecturally there is some really great retail space but I am at a loss to explain why so much of it is empty?

I saw more families out enjoying Fountain Square and its surroundings, and I am pretty sure skywalks were the last thing they were thinking about because they seemed to be enjoying the CBD.  Set them up in West Chester and Mason, a REAL city doesn't need skywalks to have itself an attract and vibrant core.

^huh?!?!. Downtown 10 years ago to today is incomparable. The city has widened quite a few sidewalks downtown, removing entire lanes, and street level places are much more full than just a few years ago.

 

And finally- Indianapolis was NOT chosen because of a skywalk system. The NFL does not care about a skywalk system. They cared that the stadium was new, has a roof, and there were enough nice hotel rooms & a good airport.

The Indianapolis skywalk system as well a interconnecting building tunnels were one of the key reason Indianapolis was chosen to hold a superbowl. Skywalks have had little inpact on street level business which is vibrant in Indy, but also, Indy has very little street level vacancies. People will patronize main street level retail if the block is relatively full and there is product diversity. That seems to be one thing downtown Cincinnati lacks. It doesn't seem like their has been a concentrated development effort to plan for, and attract, street level retailers, nor does Cincy seem to make the infrastructure effort with wider sidewalk planter beds and attractive lighting that Indy does with an area like Mass ave or Georgia street.

 

Architecturally there is some really great retail space but I am at a loss to explain why so much of it is empty?

 

Because there is so much of it for a city the size of Cincy.  Main Street alone has a significant amount of store frontage typologies that are not common in Indy - DT Indy has a lot of BIG store frontages whereas Cincy has a lot more small, urban-oriented frontages.  And of course, Cincy has a lot more inter-regional competition than Indy.  Outside of DT Indy the closest urban competition is Broad Ripple - 6 miles away.  In Cincy you have Covintgon, Newport, Bellevue, Mt. Adams, Clifton, Clifton Heights, etc. within a close proximity.  If Cincy were similar to Indy, it would be DT Cincy and Northside - and thats it! 

The Indianapolis skywalk system as well a interconnecting building tunnels were one of the key reason Indianapolis was chosen to hold a superbowl. Skywalks have had little inpact on street level business which is vibrant in Indy, but also, Indy has very little street level vacancies. People will patronize main street level retail if the block is relatively full and there is product diversity. That seems to be one thing downtown Cincinnati lacks. It doesn't seem like their has been a concentrated development effort to plan for, and attract, street level retailers, nor does Cincy seem to make the infrastructure effort with wider sidewalk planter beds and attractive lighting that Indy does with an area like Mass ave or Georgia street.

 

Architecturally there is some really great retail space but I am at a loss to explain why so much of it is empty?

 

I think I have seen your posts before, you live in both Indy and Cincy, right?  I am sorry, the only thing Indianapolis can brag about is its downtown.  If Cincinnati followed anything that Indianapolis did, I would really be disappointed in Cincinnati.  Besides a few chain restaurants and a downtown mall, Indy can brag about its retail scene, and that's about it.  Indy can look to Cincinnati when OTR is bustling and you can look down Vine and see the cars parked all down the street, see all the new spaces filled in the Italianate style buildings while looking south to a dense CBD.  Or stand in a restored Washington Park and look at architecture Indy could only dream of.  Then add to that a bustling riverfront neighborhood in between two stadiums, a new riverfront park, and all this is connected by a streetcar.  I applaud Indy for the Superbowl, but I wasn't that impressed when I visited the city last year.  If Indy wants a skywalk system and underground tunnels, good for them.  Cincinnati has a brighter future with a far more attractive CBD, and how everything works around it is awesome.

The 3 C's are going to crush Indy when it's all over with.

To me the skywalks in Cincy are nothing more than a novelty. I took my five year old through them last winter on a snowy day and he though it was cool. Haven't set foot in one since and don't plan to. I am downtown all the time and live in Clifton Heights. No reason to use skywalks when the sidewalks offer so much more.

^ +1

All of you are forgetting that when the skywalk was built, it connected four department stores.  In the mid-80s, after Sak's opened, there were five.  Then Pogue's and LS Ayres closed in 88-89, gutting the core of the skywalk system.  You could not take the skywalk between McAlpin's and Shillito's at that critical point. 

 

When they were tearing down LS Ayres, we bought some shelving and carpet from the sales floor for our basement.  I remember the 2x2 foot carpet squares were 25 cents apiece.  But when we installed them in the basement, the wear pattern was such that the room took on a checkerboard effect.  My memory is vague but I remember the loading dock where we got this stuff being in a basement and coming out on 5th St. right where that Penguin Piano bar is now. 

^ It takes people off the street, and vibrant street life is essential to a successful urban area.

 

That assumes that the number of people downtown remains constant. If downtrown foot traffic were growing, we could have both the street and the skywalks full of people.

 

Also, Cincinnati's skywalks were the national model, kind of like Portland's streetcars today. A lot of work went into those, and architecturally the bridges improved over time. I think the most useful one was the pedestrian bridge over old FWW to Riverfront Stadium; due to the grade difference, it met the sidewalk on Fourth Street.

 

There was a National Geographic article that showed a concept plan for separation of motorways and pedestrian streets into two distict levels. Downtown Cincinnati never achieved this, but if the trend had continued, it is imaginable that eventually as new buildings replaced old ones, a new pedestrian street could have been built one level up from the original street. A good example of that is the government center in Frankfurt, Kentucky; Union Terminal over Dalton Street, and parts of U.C. and NOTL display this pattern.

 

In addition to downtown Cincinnati, skywalks can also be found at the downtown Library, U.C. Main and medical campuses, the Hamilton County Justice Center, and Music Hall. There's a bridge from an earlier era between the Central Trust tower and annex.

Sorry but cincy has nowhere near the pedestrian density to support a separate second level city.  It never was going to and it never will.  These things were the kind of gift that keeps on taking.  They were a mistake made as much to isolate suburban shoppers from the homeless as they were to keep warm and dry.  Folks like Jane Jacobs and John Altschuler are right - they should come down. I remember altschuler (who was the planner hired for the fountain square renovations) talking about how the first thing he'd do would be to 'scrape clean' all the junk that cluttered the old square (which was done) and rip down the skywalks.

Minneapolis was out front on the Skywalks (makes sense with their weather). When Jake noted, the Skywalk system was far more significant in the 70s and 80s when downtown was still a serious retail destination (when the old ladies with money still did their shopping dt). It probably was a net negative in the 90s as Tower Place and it pulled folks off the streets. Now it is nothing more than a vestigial appendage.

Now it is nothing more than a vestigial appendage.

 

Exactly. I'm surprised at the relatively strong emotions it seems to bring out in some.  It's hardly important anymore and any damage it has done to the street retail/vibrancy is long in the past.  Enjoy it for the oddity that it is, tear it down as it makes sense.

 

That assumes that the number of people downtown remains constant. If downtrown foot traffic were growing, we could have both the street and the skywalks full of people.

 

Also, Cincinnati's skywalks were the national model, kind of like Portland's streetcars today. A lot of work went into those, and architecturally the bridges improved over time. I think the most useful one was the pedestrian bridge over old FWW to Riverfront Stadium; due to the grade difference, it met the sidewalk on Fourth Street.

 

There was a National Geographic article that showed a concept plan for separation of motorways and pedestrian streets into two distict levels. Downtown Cincinnati never achieved this, but if the trend had continued, it is imaginable that eventually as new buildings replaced old ones, a new pedestrian street could have been built one level up from the original street. A good example of that is the government center in Frankfurt, Kentucky; Union Terminal over Dalton Street, and parts of U.C. and NOTL display this pattern.

 

In addition to downtown Cincinnati, skywalks can also be found at the downtown Library, U.C. Main and medical campuses, the Hamilton County Justice Center, and Music Hall. There's a bridge from an earlier era between the Central Trust tower and annex.

 

The national model always has been and remains Minneapolis, which has the largest system in the world at 7 miles, linking 60ish blocks.  I have a lot of experience with their system and I think they have their good and bad.

 

Obvious climate differences aside, what I noticed about the skyways there is that they are primarily used by office workers to go between buildings and are lined with lunch spots which do not stay open for dinner.  This gives downtown Minneapolis office space a nice edge as you can travel around the downtown area for whatever reason to carry out your business without having to worry about the wind, rain, snow, heat, and cold.  This is a pretty big advantage and is not just related to winter.  Would some of these people use the sidewalk if they skyways weren't there? Of course.  But how many might just be working in suburban offices and driving around?  The connectivity this gives downtown an office space edge over the 'burbs.  The skyways basically shut down after 6PM along with those lunch spots.  This leaves the street level space open and available for active uses in the evening, not just lined with restaurants that close at 3PM. The streets are still vibrant.

 

The MSA population of the MSP area is about 1/3 larger than the Cincinnati MSA, yet Minneapolis CBD has a little more than double the total amount of office space square footage of Cincinnati CBD (and don't forget there is also downtown St. Paul CBD, not included these numbers).  I know there are a lot of other factors here, but I think it speaks to the desirability of downtown office space being stronger there than here relative to the suburbs.

 

The short of it for me: 

Office workers going about their business and eating lunch - Skyways Good

Restaurants and Shopping - Sidewalks Good

 

Another advantage in MSP is that it keeps parking out of the core.  There are massive skyway connected garages on downtown's western fringe that I don't think would be viable without those connections.

 

The debate there carries on like it does here: http://minnescraper.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1058

 

And as further evidence of the office space advantage, private developers are still paying to expand the system: http://finance-commerce.com/2011/11/new-skyway-called-‘game-changer’-for-accenture-tower/

Whatever criticism of skywalks we here, the underground tunnels some cities have (like Montreal) are much worse, as you never get a sense for where you are.  At the very least people can be seen walking across skywalks, whereas people in those tunnels are completely hidden, and they provide excellent photo vantage points. 

Now it is nothing more than a vestigial appendage.

 

Exactly. I'm surprised at the relatively strong emotions it seems to bring out in some.  It's hardly important anymore and any damage it has done to the street retail/vibrancy is long in the past.  Enjoy it for the oddity that it is, tear it down as it makes sense.

 

The reason that it brings out emotional discussion isn't because it's thought to be "important" in current day cincinnati. It's because the particulars of transportation systems have a lot to do with the city experience. So, it's relevant in that sense.

The story behind Cincinnati’s slowly disappearing skywalk system

 

BY: JOHN YUNG

FEBRUARY 23, 2012 – 9:00 AM

Over the past few weeks, city crews were busy dismantling another section of downtown Cincinnati’s once extensive skywalk system. The section, an open air walkway over Elm Street and Rusconi Place, was taken down by the city in preparation for the World Choir Games this summer, and the demolition is the latest phase of an ongoing effort to dismantle the city’s once expansive skywalk system.

 

Developed in the 1960’s as a way for downtown retailers to compete with the enclosed shopping environments found in suburban malls, the city implemented an ambitious plan to construct a series of elevated walkways extending from Fourth and Broadway northwest to the Duke Energy Convention Center.

 

The skywalks became the preferred connection to places along the route including Fountain Square; Tower Place Mall; department stores such as Shilito’s, Pogue’s, McAlpin’s and LS Ayers; as well as corporate office buildings; Riverfront Stadium; the convention center and its adjoining parking garages.

 

By the early 2000’s, the skywalk system was stymied by poor way-finding and aggressive pan-handling, and several sections had fallen into disrepair. The system was difficult to control and maintain due to ownership issues surrounding the elevated walkways. But to many urban planners, the biggest issue was that the skywalk system discouraged street-level foot traffic.

Perhaps this has already been addressed in here, but does anyone know if the Fifth Third skywalk is slated for demolition? This is the one that crosses over Walnut connecting the main Tower to the 580 Building. This is a heavily used section due to 5/3's presence in both buildings, but is in very poor condition. Chunks of concrete are falling off and rebar is visible...

^ Looks to me like they are repairing it as we type.

Why the hating on the skywalks? They are part of the city's character. I believe their removal will be something future Cincinnatians will regret, just like many of us regret things that our forbearers demolished.

^^^

 

Because they're fundamentally anti-city.  People on the street are the lifeblood of a city.

Skywalks are only a good idea in an institutional setting where sidewalk traffic/street life isn't affected such as at a hospital or P&G's skywalk at Sixth and Broadway:

 

http://goo.gl/maps/hgPh

 

Skywalks are a welcome addition when it's pouring down sheets of rain or 105 degrees outside.  I've taken a backwards, uninviting trip through the remnants of the Skywalk a couple of times over the past month.  I usually head in at Carew/Fountain Place and end up dumped into the basement of a parking garage a few blocks away.  I don't think they take much away from streetlife as I never see anyone in them, and there isn't much streetlife when it's pouring outside anyway.

Skywalks are only a good idea in an institutional setting where sidewalk traffic/street life isn't affected such as at a hospital or P&G's skywalk at Sixth and Broadway:

 

http://goo.gl/maps/hgPh

 

Right. I work in the Kroger building and our walkway between the two buildings we own is quite helpful.

 

Ram23, there's no denying that there are some individual days when a skywalk would be convenient due to weather - the problem is that the skywalk's there the whole time, draining people off the street.  You didn't see that many people on the skywalk because it's steadily being closed down, but back in the day they at time swere much busier than the actual streets themselves, and that was a real problem.

The skywalks problem is that they tend to remove street life from downtowns. This effect is not that noticeable in larger cities, many of which feature skywalks and elaborate underground passage ways but is very noticeable in small to mid-size cities such as Cincinnati. When I researched the Cincinnati skywalk, the most active connection was from 5/3rd's HQ to the former Great American Insurance Building across Vine. It got about 2,000 people per day at peak times. Actual the only way into the old GAI building was through that one skywalk. When 3CDC began redoing Fountain Square they realized that this particular skywalk contributed to the perception that downtown was vacant when in fact there were thousands of people up in the skywalk. It prevented street level retail and instead encouraged skywalk level retail. If anyone walked through downtown or drove, they would see a very empty downtown.

 

Other reasons for removal of certain sections were crime which was the result of lack of maintenance and ownership issues since some sections were private but over public streets. All and all, even though the skywalk seemed convenient to people wanting to get out of the weather, it didn't do the urban core any favors in terms of vitality.

Pretty sure there are 0 plans to tear down any active skywalks that are completely enclosed.  Focus has been on low used ones with no walls at this time.

I'd bet the skywalk across Fountain Square was torn down primarily because it was where everyone from surrounding buildings took their smoke breaks.  5/3, etc., didn't like that image. 

The way city's function should be dumbed down in a lot of ways.  The simplest urban forms are often the most effective.  Having separate facilities for pedestrians, separating them from auto travel, really is anti-urban but also it is kind of confusing for people who aren't from around town.  And when they visit, unaware that everyone is in the skywalks, they have a bad impression.  Go to DT Houston and pretend you don't know about their underground tunnels, and see what your impression of that place is. 

I have a hard time believing the trickle of foot traffic on the skywalks was anything more than a minor contribution to the decline of downtown Cincinnati's retail.  Without question the scrapping of the streetcar system and subway project and construction of 200 miles of free expressways, which opened tens of thousands of acres of farmland to development, is far and away the primary cause. 

^Exactly! Finally, someone understands. Skywalks didn't kill shopping downtown, the depopulation of the city to the suburbs did. The car is the real culprit.

^And because of that they became unnecessary which is why they are being demolished!

I can see skywalks or underground pedways making sense in a city where the climate is truly oppressive for many months out of the year, such as Calgary or Montreal or Minneapolis. But Cincinnati? No way. Although I'll occasionally use the skywalk downtown to escape summer heat if it happens to be on my way, I won't shed any tears when the last one is finally torn down.

These last few summers have been pretty oppressive. I think they'll continue to be more oppressive than not. Also, skywalks are great when it's raining. Also, many great photos of the street have been taken from the skywalks. Tearing them all down would be foolish.

My least favorite skywalk is the one on Sycamore from the Court House to the Jail. They should tunnel a connector underground between the buildings instead.

These last few summers have been pretty oppressive. I think they'll continue to be more oppressive than not. Also, skywalks are great when it's raining. Also, many great photos of the street have been taken from the skywalks. Tearing them all down would be foolish.

 

They can be helpful in the rain, but as far as the heat or cold go, I find most of them are not helpful at all.  Many of them are not air conditioned or heated, so it's essentially just as intemperate as walking outside.  Sometimes it's worse, especially in the summer; the Skywalk from Chemed/First Financial to Atrium Two is generally about 15 degrees (or more) hotter than the outside.  It's like a furnace  because of the greenhouse effect. 

^ But you don't have to walk to a crosswalk, wait to cross the street, etc. You're mostly walking through buildings, which are temperature controlled.

I didn't really have an opinion on the Cincinnati skywalk until I spent some time working in Houston a few months ago and witnessed their massive tunnel system. It's basically the opposite of the skywalk -- underground instead of overhead, and used to escape from the heat instead of the cold -- but the principal is the same. It was quite obvious to me that the tunnels hurt street life big time. At lunchtime, the tunnels were filled with businesspeople eating at the restaurants there, but street life was non-existant at lunchtime and after 5 p.m.

 

That's not to say that I support every skywalk being town down. If Company X owns two buildings and has them connected because employees go back and forth, that's fine. But I don't like the idea of having a second aboveground or underground city that allows pedestrians to avoid street level.

^ But you don't have to walk to a crosswalk, wait to cross the street, etc. You're mostly walking through buildings, which are temperature controlled.

 

Whatever time is saved missing crosswalks and waiting to cross a street is proably lost because you have (and had) a far more limited route--the skywalk is not nearly as direct as the route you pick on the street.

 

And the fact that you are spending much of the time in the various buildings doesn't mitigate the fact that you don't actually escape the weather in the skywalk.  If it were climate controlled the entire way, that woudl be one thing, but they aren't.  You get out of the elements for awhile, then right back into it.  To me, I'd rather be either inside or outside.  There is no "sort of out of the elements"--it sounds like "a little pregnant" to me. 

^I particularly dislike the ones that connect only to a single building.  I think there's one of those at 5th and Race now.  I wonder if that will be demolished when Dunnhumby builds it's new HQ or if it will be incorporated into the new building.

What was the last gasp of downtowns as shopping centers? Christmas. Twenty-five years during the peak of the Skywalks and during the last gasp of downtown as a seriously competitive retail center, the skywalks were a great way to get around and do Christmas shopping, see the trains, and that used to entail. Downtown was dominant enough as an employment center during the rest of the year that the loss of street traffic wasn't such a big deal. With the collapse of retail around the '91 recession, they became ever less valuable and eventually the few remaining links were a net negative.

Somehow this villainization of the skywalk system forgets that when they were built, they linked hotels and office buildings with no less than 4 department stores: McAlpin's (closed 1996), Shillito's (Closed 1997), LS Ayres (where Macy's is now, closed 1988 or 89), and Pogues (where Tower Place is now also closed around 1988).

 

I think in their present state the skywalks don't do much damage to the downtown street-level retail. However, if the skywalks worked so well, why did these department stores close? I agree that it was an attempt to prop up the big downtown department stores, but it didn't seem to do much about their eventual demise. We can't go back in time and try to see what would happen without skywalks all-else-equal, but by looking at other cities with few skywalks I imagine it didn't provide much net gain or loss in the end.

^ Most big downtown department stores closed during a recession, and decades after white flight/depopulation of urban centers had begun. 

 

I think we have already begun to see a re-population of downtown areas throughout the country, Cincinnati's growth in OTR and downtown is no exception.  Bars, restaurants, etc. have all returned to walkable downtown neighborhoods, and it's only a matter of time before some retail does the same.  Personally, I hate living in OTR and having to drive to Kenwood or even worse, Monroe, to shop, and I can't be the only one.

 

It may be decades away, but retail will eventually return to urban centers.  How will the skywalk system affect this? We'll have to wait and see.  I think by that point, we won't have as much issue with taking people off the street.

Department stores not only had to own their own buildings in cities, they had to build their own warehouses and parking garages. The warehouses usually weren't too far from the department stores themselves, meaning they were also on expensive downtown land or right on the edge of it. 

 

Meanwhile, the malls often gave department stores FREE rent and built their business model on rental from the mall stores. 

When the skywalk system opened in the 60's downtown had 25% of the regions retail sales, by 1990 that had dwindled to 4%.

The entire department store model has been struggling as well, with dozens of regional stores now merged under Federated/Macy's, or closed altogether. Even the newer "big box" model has been struggling against online retailers like Amazon. When retail comes back to downtown Cincinnati, it almost certainly won't be in the form of traditional downtown department stores or big boxes. Cincinnati is fortunate to be the headquarters of Macy's, but it isn't going to do much for the city's retail scene unless they decide to eventually open a Bloomingdale's store downtown.

JYP's number explains why it was a great idea in the mid-70s to build and why by the mid-90s it was no longer useful. It is worth noting that Cincinnati has held onto a dt retail presence long after much larger cities were similarly emptied out. The Skywalk served them but couldn't mitigate secular changes in retail. The true death knell is easiest to date at the transformation of Kenwood Plaza into Kenwood Towne Center.