Or maybe they should do what other states do and have more than one shift working on the project.....like maybe a night shift....but hey, what do I know...

Saw this sign today. I wonder if this was made to appease Mary Wright-Alley (cafe owner).

 

 

 

 

I like these tree thingies (technical term)

 

 

 

Looking from Playhouse Square toward CSU.

 

 

 

A couple of shots in front of the student center.

 

 

 

 

This part is supposed to be done by iNGENUiTY. It's going to be close.

To the point of the article in today's PD about out-of-towners and the ECTP being an eyesore/obstacle/enigma, why doesn't the project have more "world class signage?"  I had quite a few (100+) out-of-town visitors staying in the Hyatt a couple weeks back and the reviews were mixed.  About half realized that it was construction progress, while the others just noticed the disarray.  It's not up to the visitors to find out what's going on... we have to tell them! 

 

It's too late at this point, but we could have had banners and historic "story boards" on the avenue, displaying what Euclid was and what it will become.  On the street, over the street, and in the empty storefronts... Ah well, another missed opportunity... 

To the point of the article in today's PD about out-of-towners and the ECTP being an eyesore/obstacle/enigma, why doesn't the project have more "world class signage?"  I had quite a few (100+) out-of-town visitors staying in the Hyatt a couple weeks back and the reviews were mixed.  About half realized that it was construction progress, while the others just noticed the disarray.  It's not up to the visitors to find out what's going on... we have to tell them! 

 

It's too late at this point, but we could have had banners and historic "story boards" on the avenue, displaying what Euclid was and what it will become.  On the street, over the street, and in the empty storefronts... Ah well, another missed opportunity... 

 

We'll aren't you just a posting maniac.  LOL  :wink:

 

I guess after getting married (congrats) and a honeymoon (heeeeeeeeyyy), you're making up for lost time!

 

Welcome back MisterGoodDay AKA MapBoy!

ummm... no honeymoon yet.  Closing on a house tomorrow, though!

 

And who's this MisterGoodDay?

ummm... no honeymoon yet.  Closing on a house tomorrow, though!

 

And who's this MisterGoodDay?

 

Well aren't you doing big thangs!  Getting hitched.  Buying a home. now all thats left is to catchup with Wimwar (hey I like the old names) in repopulating Ohio City/Cleveland!  :wink:

 

MisterGoodDay - Some pipsqueak who lived in Brooklyn.

Oh riiiiight... that guy!

 

BTW, I'm doing my part to repopulate... hint, hint.  :clap:

Oh riiiiight... that guy!

 

BTW, I'm doing my part to repopulate... hint, hint.   :clap:

 

Good man!!

So I'm getting kind of nervous about the ECTP, and I need some UrbanOhio reassurance.

 

Just seeing how these contractors can't even keep the lights on, fix the vaults, fix the sewers, I'm starting to question whether the things that make this project great: signal priority, the stations, are going to happen.  Someone please make me feel better.  I am really starting to worry that we're going to end up with a bricked sidewalk and some bus lanes.

So I'm getting kind of nervous about the ECTP, and I need some UrbanOhio reassurance.

 

Just seeing how these contractors can't even keep the lights on, fix the vaults, fix the sewers, I'm starting to question whether the things that make this project great: signal priority, the stations, are going to happen.  Someone please make me feel better.  I am really starting to worry that we're going to end up with a bricked sidewalk and some bus lanes.

 

Why do you need to feel better?

 

If you look through the thread, you see statements about the sewers, vaults ect.  Things they could only estimate to a certain degree, but once they started the project and dug things up they realized that the infrastructure was worse than assumed/estimated.

I see progress because I'm down there every day. Some of the vault work appears to be done in front of Jimmy John's since they were taking down the wall supports (you know that big metal dealie to keep the walls up when digging down low)

Things are really hopping near CSU. I know they are trying to make it as clean as possible before iNGENUiTY next month.

they will also install the first 2 stations in the next few weeks.  one will be at e40 and euclid and one will be a sidewalk boarding area in east cleveland.

 

i feel somewhat better after seeing how the e30-e55 section has turned out, and RTA required that the people doing signal priority to build out a complete test system before any installation (they are also using the latest technology SONET - which was a change order from the original system specified). 

 

biggest problem i have is timing.  should be at least 2 shifts as i don't think the RTA cost analysis could have possibly included all of the delayed traffic, lost business, increased pollution, etc.

Did anybody have any pictures of the trees that were being planted.  I believe Musky mentioned a while back that were a good size.  Was hoping they were not scaled back, tiny honey locusts.......

Ok I feel a bit better now...and I'm glad the signal timing system was already tested before all of this.

 

MyTwoSense...I understand that they found the infrastructure was in worse shape than they thought, my simple reason for being concerned is that they can't keep the lights on.  As a downtown resident, I have the pleasure of watching the rolling black outs caused by the contractors of CPP & RTA, and it caused me to be a bit anxious.  Sunday morning there were no stop lights.  For the city who invented the street lamp, its pretty sad that we can't even keep ours on.  If they can't keep simple lights on, I wondered about their ability to get the rest of the more high-tech features in.

 

Maybe that's more of a slam on CPP than on RTA, or the bureaucracy in general.

I was driving by CSU Friday night and noticed most of the streetlight on the north side of Euclid were on.

I took some pictures but they did not come out well.

 

Instead, enjoy these as a substitute. Taken from the offices of the Cleveland Foundation in the Hanna Building.

 

 

Great view.

Awesome

God I really wish someone would tear down the ugly @ss building at E13 and Euclid!  Combined with the empty lot between it and the Union Club, a brand spanking new  flagship dept. store in the Halle Building, and PHS, this would be a quite the nice place!  Someday...

No, you don't - unless you plan to move the tech companies out of there, who happen to give the building (the Sterling Building, named after the former department store) an occupancy rate over 90%. Don't get me wrong - it ain't pretty, but it has a lot of tech upgrades that are verrrry attractive to the companies that have moved there (and quite a few were transplanted from the 'burbs).

ive said it before and i'll say it again........i dont like the euclid corridor project at all. yay BRT.......a glorified bus route. that's all it is, and it seems to be takin them ages to finish contruction. if theres not a subway down euclid there should be rail above the street similar to chicago and taipei metro.

 

RTA should be usin money that was spent on the ECP to expand rapid lines. it makes zero sense that lakewood, cleveland hts, euclid and more extensive areas of cleveland are unserved by rail. building rail down euclid would also spur some TOD and re-urbanize the area adjacent to downton on the eastside, which BADLY needs to happen. how much would it cost RTA to get some of the old street car lines up and running again? that would be more beneficial to our public transportation system.

 

that's just my opinion though...

 

 

^24 pages later, we come full circle.........

I understand some folks don't like this, but its here, its under construction and it will probably exist as is for the next few decades. So at this point its like you've got to just except it.

 

I'm assuming this is construction or readying for construction for the ECP bus stops. These torn up sidewalks extend from UC to just before Windemere.

 

 

Euclid torn up in front of Beacon Place.

 

216 you must not be highly educated as to the 20 year history of this project.  But to answer one of your multiple questions, RTA would have never been able to obtain the federal funds to build a subway, or probably any type of rail line, down Euclid given Department of Transportation guidelines.

 

Surprised to hear that they are actually beginning to install stations in the near future.  Would have thought they would have wanted to give them a rest from at least one Cleveland winter since they will not be used for more than a year.

Under current USDOT guidelines, no. But when the project in its concurrent phases of planning began in the early 1980s, it might have been eligible to receive an 80 percent federal funding share for construction of a rail line -- even a subway. Buffalo and Pittsburgh both received federal funds for light-rail projects that included subways shortly before Cleveland began the then-Dual Hub Corridor project. Buffalo's was for a totally new 6.6-mile rail line, 5.2 miles of which is in a subway (except in the downtown area!). Pittsburgh rebuilt its 1890s-era, 25-mile light rail system, including moving its streetcars off the downtown streets and putting them in a three-station, 0.9-mile downtown subway.

 

And let's not forget that just a few years ago Pittsburgh received $350 million in federal funds for the $435 million North Shore Connector project to extend the downtown subway under the Allegheny River to serve two stations across the river from downtown. Ridership is projected at 4.2 million trips per year.

 

While the Euclid Corridor is estimated to increase transit ridership by 1.4 million trips per year, a mid-range light-rail alternative, including a short downtown subway was projected to increase ridership by 2.5 million trips per year.

 

Yet that tells only part of the story. The cheapest light-rail option would be more than double the start-up and operating costs of the bus rapid transit option. While the rail ridership would be higher, the annualized capital and operating costs (annualized compares costs against ridership over a given period of time, such as 20-25 years) made bus rapid transit the more cost-effective option in this case.

 

But again, it all depends on what metrics the USDOT is using at a given time to determine if it will recommend a project for federal funding. Those metrics can and do change.

^correct me if i'm wrong. The Feds funding schedule for a BRT were much more favorable than LRT  (as a % of total construction costs)

While developers in other parts of the country are building there own streetcar systems,we get a federal bus line.

Is anyone interested in starting a shadow governing body of RTA.Perhaps KJP could be our leader to counter calabrese.

 

 

While developers in other parts of the country are building there own streetcar systems,we get a federal bus line.

 

Developers? Seriously?

Buffalo and Pittsburgh both received federal funds for light-rail projects that included subways shortly before Cleveland began the then-Dual Hub Corridor project. Buffalo's was for a totally new 6.6-mile rail line, 5.2 miles of which is in a subway (except in the downtown area!).

 

Having lived 18 years in Buffalo and suffered through what they called a public transportation system (while developing a good working relationship with their planning manager), and with apologies to Public Enemy, "LRT is a joke in that town"...

 

Oh, and CTownsFinest216, I'm sure this has also been said before, but I'll say it again... RTA COULD NOT use the money for ECTP to expand existing rail lines, because the vast majority of it was not RTA's money, but purpose-earmarked federal grants. Wishing something doesn't make it so, there are rules that need to be followed with any handout, just like when you received an allowance as a kid...

^I have heard the same thing about LRT in Buffalo from friends who live there.

 

By the way, if I can recall correctly my urban transportation class from college (now this is going to be an effort 'cause it was a LONG time ago), for at least heavy rail (and perhaps light rail) to make economic sense you have to have a population density of 15,000 people per square mile.  I would imagine the only place in Northeast Ohio that is the case is maybe Lakewood.  A subway strictly down Euclid certainly does not meet those numbers.  I have always thought that if a subway line was ever built (to come close to the density requirements although I am sure they still would not be met) and to connect key business and population centers on the west side, downtown and the east side, a line should run down Detroit starting on the Rocky River-Lakewood border to downtown, then down Euclid to University Circle and then up Cedar to about Richmond Rd.  Does anybody have a spare 10 billion or so?  Dream Dream Dream,

my non-planning mind tells me there's some faulty thinking in the logic behind the development of transit systems.

 

Yes, there should be some inherit density along the corridor, but a significant fixed transportation improvement will dramatically impact density and land use patterns in a relatively short period of time (see also DC Metro, specifically Orange Line, specifically Ballston Area)

 

(there's a bunch of catch-alls on that thought, don't jump me)

I drove down Euclid today. Its looking really nice infront of the Agora. This is going to be a huge improvement for Euclid.

The cheapest light-rail option would be more than double the start-up and operating costs of the bus rapid transit option. While the rail ridership would be higher, the annualized capital and operating costs (annualized compares costs against ridership over a given period of time, such as 20-25 years) made bus rapid transit the more cost-effective option in this case.

 

KJP -- can you clarify this for me.  My understanding has always been that the start-up costs for rail (light, heavy, subway) are enormously larger than BRT, but maintenance and operating costs for rail generally are much lower than BRT, particularly if you factor in road maintenance.  Is that incorrect?  I also seem to remember hearing that if the Feds or State assist in funding rail but leave you with operating costs, over the long term rail modes make more sense for a city.  Sometimes my hearing isn't so good, however, so I'd appreciate your insight. 

 

Are your annualized costs averaging both start-up and operating/maintenance costs over the long term?

I drove down Euclid today. Its looking really nice infront of the Agora. This is going to be a huge improvement for Euclid.

 

I agree. Euclid doesn't look too depressing until you get East of East 55th. between there and 79th or so, its WWII Europe reincarnated. Hopefully more projects will be announced here as this thing nears completion.

I drove down Euclid today. Its looking really nice infront of the Agora. This is going to be a huge improvement for Euclid.

 

I agree. Euclid doesn't look too depressing until you get East of East 55th. between there and 79th or so, its WWII Europe reincarnated. Hopefully more projects will be announced here as this thing nears completion.

 

I think I saw Tom Hanks trying to save Matt Damon last time I drove by.

Pope...don't take this as a "jump".  Agree with your that a transportation improvement can increase density.  However, the Ballston example you provided simply does not apply to Cleveland.  Northern DC's population is exploding while...well we know what the story is locally.  In my opinion the entire DC metro area is the best example in the nation of transportation improvements increasing density and their TOD's are usually done very well.  Again, however, it is a booming area.

Yes, DC's development and emphasis on TOD is definitely necessitated by their rapid growth (and high wage earning) as well as housing shortages (especially in No. VA.) and their commuting nightmares (usually no. 2 in the country for sitting in traffic).  I know I got rid of my car here and live near the metro, which I take everyday.  They don't really have much choice than to maximise TOD. 

No, I wholly understand what you are saying, but you should have seen that area in the 70s (or maybe you did), it essentially was strip mall central.

Pope...don't take this as a "jump".  Agree with your that a transportation improvement can increase density.  However, the Ballston example you provided simply does not apply to Cleveland.  Northern DC's population is exploding while...well we know what the story is locally.  In my opinion the entire DC metro area is the best example in the nation of transportation improvements increasing density and their TOD's are usually done very well.  Again, however, it is a booming area.

 

dude thats the point, the metro HELPED the boom.  They built and people came.  I hate that analogy, but that sums it up best.  The portions of DC with the most development are with 10 blocks of a metro station, except Georgetown.

Yes, but the counter point is that Cleveland does not share those same necessitating factors, which is why it is so slow to take hold there.  I do hope it changes though as I think it is, as the mentality is shifting a bit back to the concept of urban living.  But again, there is an overabundance of housing, economy issues and no population growth etc.....   

the word on NPR this morning was that the line will not be operational until December 31st, 2008.  This is the third change I've heard in the past 6 months.  From Spring, to Fall, and now to New Year's Eve?  Are they really that intent on holding onto the 2008 opening?  We all know it'll get pushed at least to January 1st!  So, it's looking like 2009... Spring? Summer?  Fall?  Who knows...

 

Also, tonight on WVIZ:

Premieres Wednesday, June 20 at 7:30 PM on WVIZ/PBS

Rebroadcast Sunday, June 24 at 11:00 AM

 

Euclid Corridor

Euclid Corridor Construction continues, and yes, progress is being made. With some exclusive transit lane roads rebuilt, it's a great start - but what else is going on with the new silver line - as greater Cleveland RTA moves forward with the $200 million project? And as RTA plans for increased rider ship - what about the businesses that have been dealing with construction for the past year and a half? Will they survive?

 

http://www.wviz.org/ideas/index.html

Pope.  I know the Ballston station very well.  In 84 it was the end of the Orange Line.  I was there almost every day catching a bus to Tyson's Corner and then on to Reston where I was living at the time.  At that time Ballston was not much more than a lot of car lots.  It's transformation the past 20 years is amazing.

Yes, but the counter point is that Cleveland does not share those same necessitating factors, which is why it is so slow to take hold there.  I do hope it changes though as I think it is, as the mentality is shifting a bit back to the concept of urban living.  But again, there is an overabundance of housing, economy issues and no population growth etc.....   

 

You're comparing "suburban" DC to "inner city" Cleveland.  I think if Rail was in say lakewood/rocky river, Clevland hts/s. euclid or parma/parma hts.  we could make comparisons.

 

I have a strong feeling, even with delays the ECP will help the corridor, how much, who is to say.

 

I like everyone is would have liked rail, but it is what it is.

Not really.  Its about the necessitating factors.  The same could be said for my neighborhood in D.C. for the factors listed.  The factors that dont exist in Cleveland.  Which is actually why we were saying you cant compare the two.   

Having lived 18 years in Buffalo and suffered through what they called a public transportation system (while developing a good working relationship with their planning manager), and with apologies to Public Enemy, "LRT is a joke in that town"...

 

If LRT is a joke in Buffalo, it must be a hootenanny in Cleveland. Average weekday ridership on Buffalo's LRT is 19,200; Cleveland's (Blue/Green) is 10,800.

 

Pretty funny.

^ and i wonder why? hmmm, lets see, why what do you know it goes straight thru the cbd where the people are. brilliant! genius!

 

sheesh. hopefully the ecp sort of makes up for that "gorilla in the room" sized mistake in the cleve.

^ and i wonder why? hmmm, lets see, why what do you know it goes straight thru the cbd where the people are. brilliant! genius!

 

sheesh. hopefully the ecp sort of makes up for that "gorilla in the room" sized mistake in the cleve.

 

and there are folks who would say, and I'm tempted to agree with them, that running it straight through the cbd above ground is what helped to kill downtown (you can roll a bowling ball down Main Place after 5:00pm and not risk hitting anyone)... it's a businessman/schoolkid line, plain & simple, and as far as TOD revitalization is concerned, I can't speak for the last 18 months, but when I was there, the midtown stretch (Humboldt-Allen) rivaled the earlier WWII analogy in terms of burned-out/boarded up storefronts... yes, things are happening there now, with the medical corridor revitalization, and an aggressive downtown housing initiative, but that rail line had NOTHING to do with it

 

KJP, I have a feeling that 19.2K/day number is a bit skewed (a transit agency, spin statistics in their favor? well I never!!! :-o)... and I'm genuinely surprised to hear our number is so low... not doubting it, but more from an interest standpoint, please cite your source

And KJP - you failed to include the Red Line ridership in those statistics.  I belive the Red Line trains are more heavily utilized then the Blue/Green lines

And KJP - you failed to include the Red Line ridership in those statistics.  I belive the Red Line trains are more heavily utilized then the Blue/Green lines

 

I think that was deliberate because the Red Line is heavy rail, whereas Buffalo and the Blue and Green Lines are all light.  Even though the Red Line is integrated with the Blue and Green, that might be venturing into apples and oranges territory.

here's a neat idea for reusing some of the land along Euclid:

 

http://www.verticalfarm.com/

 

high-rise, indoor, closed-system hydroponic farming... solve land use/sprawl and food production problems all in one swell foop  :clap: