June 21, 200717 yr ^ and i wonder why? hmmm, lets see, why what do you know it goes straight thru the cbd where the people are. brilliant! genius! sheesh. hopefully the ecp sort of makes up for that "gorilla in the room" sized mistake in the cleve. and there are folks who would say, and I'm tempted to agree with them, that running it straight through the cbd above ground is what helped to kill downtown (you can roll a bowling ball down Main Place after 5:00pm and not risk hitting anyone)... it's a businessman/schoolkid line, plain & simple, and as far as TOD revitalization is concerned, I can't speak for the last 18 months, but when I was there, the midtown stretch (Humboldt-Allen) rivaled the earlier WWII analogy in terms of burned-out/boarded up storefronts... yes, things are happening there now, with the medical corridor revitalization, and an aggressive downtown housing initiative, but that rail line had NOTHING to do with it KJP, I have a feeling that 19.2K/day number is a bit skewed (a transit agency, spin statistics in their favor? well I never!!! :-o)... and I'm genuinely surprised to hear our number is so low... not doubting it, but more from an interest standpoint, please cite your source i'm just talking numbers. of course ecp be damned, ideally to do it right any rail transit in the clev cbd should be cut and covered underground. ps - thx for the update mister good map boy. likely 2009? sheesh. talk about murdering any street life -- i feel bad for the euc small businesses and people who have to regularly walk along that royal construction mess. only two years to go? ugh.
June 22, 200717 yr 2009? are you effin kiddin me? what a JOKE. this city is a damn JOKE. rta is a damn JOKE. theyve already been workin on this for ages too.....seems like its been like 2 yrs. so you tellin me it takes $200 million and 4 yrs in order to build a couple fancier bus stops along euclid? why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems in portland, salt lake city, denver, and sacramento. look at what rail has done for those cities in terms of urban environment, TOD, and ridership numbers. all of those systems have far exceeded expected ridership figures. these are areas that have never had the rail/streetcar culture or density of cleveland yet they get it and are URBANIZING, not de-urbanizing like cleveland. the worst part about it is that WE ALREADY HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HERE! i really dont want to ever move from cleveland but the idiots here are gonna give me no other choice Oh, and CTownsFinest216, I'm sure this has also been said before, but I'll say it again... RTA COULD NOT use the money for ECTP to expand existing rail lines, because the vast majority of it was not RTA's money, but purpose-earmarked federal grants. Wishing something doesn't make it so, there are rules that need to be followed with any handout, just like when you received an allowance as a kid... so then lobby for a federal grant to extend the light rail instead of a glorified bus route. typical "cant do" defeatist attitude that exists here. i never received an allowance as a kid either. "if you build it they will come" but alas, traffic isnt bad here and no one takes the rapid so whats the point? lets just stick to the defeatist cant do attitude that we love so much here in northeastern ohio
June 22, 200717 yr From the jump this was a four year project, so I don't know why folks are acting surprised its going to take four years. Also like has been said a million times, contractors don't know what they're working with in terms of infrastructure until they dig it up and infrastructure that needs to be rebuilt can push completion dates way back. I think before we just expand lines willy nilly we need to work on TODs along the existing lines. I mean if no one rides the rapid why would you expand it? That would be a waste of money. If TODs are successful along existing lines people may clamour for the extension of lines further out and add more TODs.
June 22, 200717 yr 2009? are you effin kiddin me? what a JOKE. this city is a damn JOKE. rta is a damn JOKE. theyve already been workin on this for ages too.....seems like its been like 2 yrs. so you tellin me it takes $200 million and 4 yrs in order to build a couple fancier bus stops along euclid? why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems in portland, salt lake city, denver, and sacramento. look at what rail has done for those cities in terms of urban environment, TOD, and ridership numbers. all of those systems have far exceeded expected ridership figures. these are areas that have never had the rail/streetcar culture or density of cleveland yet they get it and are URBANIZING, not de-urbanizing like cleveland. the worst part about it is that WE ALREADY HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HERE! i really dont want to ever move from cleveland but the idiots here are gonna give me no other choice lol
June 22, 200717 yr As Bill Clinton would say, CTownsFinest: I feel your pain. I love this town but defeatism is often owned by us; like City that Doesn’t work is our motto as much as the City that Works is Chicago’s (and the can-do, perpetual upbeat attitude of the Windy City is palpable when you go there to this moment). ECP is what it is; I've bellyached enough about it and come to terms with it... That said, though, the perception put forward here: that somehow ECP was 'inevitable' and that a subway was not right for this corridor b/c of a lack of density, is total Cleveland defeatism. I've written that Cleveland probably doesn't have the current density and (DC-type) explosive population growth for a DC Metro-sized system, but have always felt a subway should have been built up Euclid... That we have an established, ... dare I say, old, working rapid transit system and, yet, STILL couldn't build a subway makes this all the more an embarrassment and shame for our city. Face it UOers, on this project, we’ve collectively blown it. St. Louis, Pittsburgh and even the aforementioned tiny Buffalo were all able to build subways; all smaller and less dense than Cleveland. All, like us, Rust Belt towns with shrinking populations... So there's no excuse for us not getting Dual Hub done... none at all. KJP has deftly documented both the saga of subway attempts for downtown and/or this corridor dating all the way back to World War I up until Dual Hub which failed in the 1990s leading to ECP. KJP and others have documented high density areas along the corridor in adjacent Hough as well as U.Circle, like that Hollywood neighborhood of brownstone apartments I’d never heard of around where Lexington Village now is. Are you going to tell me the density didn’t or couldn’t exist when you look at old photos of Doan’s Corners at E. 105 & Euclid? This area was so thick with elegant high-rise apartments, movie houses and high-end retail it was called Cleveland’s Second Downtown. Had we built subway in, at least the 40s or 50s, Doan would make Shaker Square look like Wooster. But we didn’t get it done. When the newly founded RTA was struggling to extend the Green Line a mere 1.5 miles to I-271 and the mode mixer lot that would have served a wide swath of the county, the late great Herb Kamm (I think of the old Cleveland Press) predicted it wouldn’t happen because this town/region “… lacked the political will and/or courage.” Sadly, he was right. Much of what I, and dare I say many UOers love about Cleveland, was built during the go-go can-do period of Cleveland by greats such as the Mathers, John D., the Vans, Tom L. Johnson, and many, many others. I’m not saying we haven’t done nice things since then, but we’re too often resting on our Art Museum/Arcade/Terminal Tower/U. Circle/Playhouse Sq., etc. laurels and seem incapable of pulling off things that are ‘really big’ anymore. And yet, like with ECP, we look for ways to justify failure, much like we shrug our shoulders say, for example, the demise of the old, great Flats – one of the nation’s leading (and noteworthy) entertainment districts, was somehow inevitable. … no it wasn’t; no more so than ECP when most normal city’s that had such past achievements as our rapid transit (and don’t think it’s not; just visit Detroit, Indy & Milwaukee if you think it is) would have built a subway or, at the very least, a subway (downtown) surface/light rail combo…. And now we have the aggravation of messy project that inconveniences and dirties our town, esp downtown, while yet failing to capture the interest or fancy of the populace, like a subway would have; which would have allowed most of us to more happily tolerate the dust and dirt anticipating more than just a glorified bus-way. I hope ECP works to curb at least some of the embarrassing, widespread blight through our Midtown-central corridor that causes many visitors to often lump Cleveland with Detroit (the kind a subway surely would have arrested, much like it did in Atlanta’s Peachtree corridor). Early evidence suggests it can and, on that level, I’ll be pleased and live with ECP which, at the very least is transit and not another freeway like that foolish freeway/freeway light (the so-called Opportunity Corridor – don’t’ get me started) down our collective throats. Just don’t come on here telling people like me, CTownsFinest, mrnyc and others (dare I speak for them) that somehow this glorified busway was somehow inevitable or is somehow best for a supposedly city like ours… … for, to you, I can only say: Only in Cleveland.
June 22, 200717 yr Damn, I've never seen so much criticism for something that has not even been created yet. No one knows the effects that the ECP will have on the area, and no one will know until it opens. And why, two years later, are people complaining? I wish people would wait until the project is finished and give it a chance before starting the ~ZOMG CLEVELAND IZ *D00MED* LOL~ stuff.
June 22, 200717 yr ^ read again. I for one and not 'criticizing' ECP so much as I am the mentality that says it's the best that could be done.
June 22, 200717 yr ^ read again. I for one and not 'criticizing' ECP so much as I am the mentality that says it's the best that could be done. but its a never-ending critique - Plain Dealer style - for you.... :| :|
June 22, 200717 yr 2009? are you effin kiddin me? what a JOKE. this city is a damn JOKE. rta is a damn JOKE. theyve already been workin on this for ages too.....seems like its been like 2 yrs. so you tellin me it takes $200 million and 4 yrs in order to build a couple fancier bus stops along euclid? why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems in portland, salt lake city, denver, and sacramento. look at what rail has done for those cities in terms of urban environment, TOD, and ridership numbers. all of those systems have far exceeded expected ridership figures. these are areas that have never had the rail/streetcar culture or density of cleveland yet they get it and are URBANIZING, not de-urbanizing like cleveland. the worst part about it is that WE ALREADY HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HERE! i really dont want to ever move from cleveland but the idiots here are gonna give me no other choice Oh, and CTownsFinest216, I'm sure this has also been said before, but I'll say it again... RTA COULD NOT use the money for ECTP to expand existing rail lines, because the vast majority of it was not RTA's money, but purpose-earmarked federal grants. Wishing something doesn't make it so, there are rules that need to be followed with any handout, just like when you received an allowance as a kid... so then lobby for a federal grant to extend the light rail instead of a glorified bus route. typical "cant do" defeatist attitude that exists here. i never received an allowance as a kid either. "if you build it they will come" but alas, traffic isnt bad here and no one takes the rapid so whats the point? lets just stick to the defeatist cant do attitude that we love so much here in northeastern ohio Son, you obviously haven't been here too long, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's make a few things perfectly clear: The Euclid Corridor project is far more than the construction of "a couple fancier bus stops along Euclid". It is the complete re-thinking, re-engineering, and rebuilding of a major transportation corridor for the area, from the ground (and below) up. Dismissing it through minimalist statements such as yours demonstrates a distorted perception of the facts. What makes you think that lobbying wasn't/won't be done for additional projects? The pot is only just so big, and sometimes it's worthwhile to know when to walk away. Had all of our efforts been directed toward just getting what we wanted, Cleveland might have been left with nothing, and there's no way you can convince me that a cratered, desolate Euclid Avenue would be better than the rebuilding that's going on now. Look at some of my prior posts - lumping me in with anything resembling a defeatist attitude is sheer folly. I left Buffalo, NY because of the perceived defeatist attitude among "leaders" there. I am, however, a realist. "why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems"? You've just answered your own question. One of the disadvantages of rail infrastructure is that it can't easily be moved to adapt to changing lifestyles/population patterns. Check out the systems in the cities you mentioned 50 (or even 20) years from now, and you may find some of the same concerns. Also, with regards to St. Louis, I had the occasion to strike up a spontaneous conversation one day (while waiting for the Waterfront Line) with a couple of tourists from that very city, and they couldn't help but mention how much they enjoyed or transit system, mentioning that they hadn't rented a car for the long weekend they were planning on spending here, so let's not begin to suggest that any solution somehow functions as a "universal truth"... clvlndr, I'll keep my comment brief, as I do feel you and I share some common frames of thought, but I would respectfully disagree with your assessment of a subway working "to curb at least some of the embarrassing, widespread blight" -- rather, I think it would keep it hidden from those who would board at the outskirts of town, ride into downtown, and never have a clue what it is that is (or isn't) going on above them. RTA is still working with integrating inherited, disparate systems (both bus and rail) with individual histories than it has as a unified organization. Combine that with strong neighborhood-level politics and a non-regional government infrastructure with far too many chiefs and not enough indians (Glenwillow, population 449, has a mayor and a six-person village council, fer chrissakes!), and you get the quagmire we're in the midst of. Sometimes, you don't criticize the bear for how poorly it dances, you applaud the fact that it dances at all...
June 26, 200717 yr 2009? are you effin kiddin me? what a JOKE. this city is a damn JOKE. rta is a damn JOKE. theyve already been workin on this for ages too.....seems like its been like 2 yrs. so you tellin me it takes $200 million and 4 yrs in order to build a couple fancier bus stops along euclid? why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems in portland, salt lake city, denver, and sacramento. look at what rail has done for those cities in terms of urban environment, TOD, and ridership numbers. all of those systems have far exceeded expected ridership figures. these are areas that have never had the rail/streetcar culture or density of cleveland yet they get it and are URBANIZING, not de-urbanizing like cleveland. the worst part about it is that WE ALREADY HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HERE! i really dont want to ever move from cleveland but the idiots here are gonna give me no other choice Oh, and CTownsFinest216, I'm sure this has also been said before, but I'll say it again... RTA COULD NOT use the money for ECTP to expand existing rail lines, because the vast majority of it was not RTA's money, but purpose-earmarked federal grants. Wishing something doesn't make it so, there are rules that need to be followed with any handout, just like when you received an allowance as a kid... so then lobby for a federal grant to extend the light rail instead of a glorified bus route. typical "cant do" defeatist attitude that exists here. i never received an allowance as a kid either. "if you build it they will come" but alas, traffic isnt bad here and no one takes the rapid so whats the point? lets just stick to the defeatist cant do attitude that we love so much here in northeastern ohio Son, you obviously haven't been here too long, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's make a few things perfectly clear: The Euclid Corridor project is far more than the construction of "a couple fancier bus stops along Euclid". It is the complete re-thinking, re-engineering, and rebuilding of a major transportation corridor for the area, from the ground (and below) up. Dismissing it through minimalist statements such as yours demonstrates a distorted perception of the facts. What makes you think that lobbying wasn't/won't be done for additional projects? The pot is only just so big, and sometimes it's worthwhile to know when to walk away. Had all of our efforts been directed toward just getting what we wanted, Cleveland might have been left with nothing, and there's no way you can convince me that a cratered, desolate Euclid Avenue would be better than the rebuilding that's going on now. Look at some of my prior posts - lumping me in with anything resembling a defeatist attitude is sheer folly. I left Buffalo, NY because of the perceived defeatist attitude among "leaders" there. I am, however, a realist. "why is it that a rapid transit system over 50 yrs old has less coverage than newly built systems"? You've just answered your own question. One of the disadvantages of rail infrastructure is that it can't easily be moved to adapt to changing lifestyles/population patterns. Check out the systems in the cities you mentioned 50 (or even 20) years from now, and you may find some of the same concerns. Also, with regards to St. Louis, I had the occasion to strike up a spontaneous conversation one day (while waiting for the Waterfront Line) with a couple of tourists from that very city, and they couldn't help but mention how much they enjoyed or transit system, mentioning that they hadn't rented a car for the long weekend they were planning on spending here, so let's not begin to suggest that any solution somehow functions as a "universal truth"... clvlndr, I'll keep my comment brief, as I do feel you and I share some common frames of thought, but I would respectfully disagree with your assessment of a subway working "to curb at least some of the embarrassing, widespread blight" -- rather, I think it would keep it hidden from those who would board at the outskirts of town, ride into downtown, and never have a clue what it is that is (or isn't) going on above them. RTA is still working with integrating inherited, disparate systems (both bus and rail) with individual histories than it has as a unified organization. Combine that with strong neighborhood-level politics and a non-regional government infrastructure with far too many chiefs and not enough indians (Glenwillow, population 449, has a mayor and a six-person village council, fer chrissakes!), and you get the quagmire we're in the midst of. Sometimes, you don't criticize the bear for how poorly it dances, you applaud the fact that it dances at all... havent been where too long? UO or cleveland? check my registered date and check yours....i dont post a lot i mostly read here. im born and raised in cleveland and 23 yrs old right now. how can you possibly describe the ECP as something that will supposedly revolutionize cleveland's transit system. please tell me how it isnt a glorified bus route with better stops. its not rail, its still a bus. nothing re-engineering and re-building about that when there was a streetcar line down euclid avenue before. doing that would be building light rail or a subway line. i never said you were among the defeatist attitude here, i was refering to the general populous in this region. still, i dont see how you can defend the ECP. watching other cities do what my hometown should be gives me a sick feelin in my stomach. i'm well aware there are obstacles here like state funding for pub transport (which is paltry compared to even michigan) and incompetant city leaders/officials/planning and thats what frustrates me. RTA isnt completely to blame but i doubt they are doing all they can. calebrese is in charge and he's a rail hater himself......i doubt he was doing a whole lot of lobbying for rail along euclid when the ECP was being planned. RTA has a "settle-for-less" moto itself......it trickles down to everything in this city. everything clvlndr said was on point. i dont really know what else to say besides we dont seem to get it here.
June 27, 200717 yr how about instead of discussing my age you tell me how i dont have a valid point. since i express my opinions and dont sugar-coat things my posts are all "negative". to please all of you maybe i should just act like the ECP isnt what it really is- a glorified bus route. cleveland, as in the people in charge of things in this city, is a joke because they dont seem to get it as far as urban planning goes. i think just about everyone on this website could do a better job than city officials of cleveland can. government officials have even pointed this out. if none of these urban renewal policies were planned in cleveland years ago we wouldnt be havin this discussion today. if you love cleveland so much why dont you point out its negatives and not settle for less. or should we sit back and watch cleveland suburbanize itself? i say these things because i want real progress, not a watered down version. ah well i guess cleveland can stay this way. afterall, if residents are happy and doing cart wheels over a new BRT why should RTA care to expand rail or build a subway downtown?
June 27, 200717 yr how about instead of discussing my age you tell me how i dont have a valid point. since i express my opinions and dont sugar-coat things my posts are all "negative". to please all of you maybe i should just act like the ECP isnt what it really is- a glorified bus route. cleveland, as in the people in charge of things in this city, is a joke because they dont seem to get it as far as urban planning goes. i think just about everyone on this website could do a better job than city officials of cleveland can. government officials have even pointed this out. if none of these urban renewal policies were planned in cleveland years ago we wouldnt be havin this discussion today. if you love cleveland so much why dont you point out its negatives and not settle for less. or should we sit back and watch cleveland suburbanize itself? i say these things because i want real progress, not a watered down version. ah well i guess cleveland can stay this way. afterall, if residents are happy and doing cart wheels over a new BRT why should RTA care to expand rail or build a subway downtown? Nobody is saying you're wrong for pointing out "problems" (perceived or real) but what have you done to prevent them in the future and keep Cleveland (or the city you live in) on the right track. Do you live in the city or the burbs? What have you done to help improve Greater Cleveland? Where were you when the ECP was being planned? Where were you when the dual rail project was being discussed? What exactly do you know about the ECP? Do you know the economic of the BRT vs. Rail in LTP? Its much more than a glorified bus route, but if you took the time to read the legislation put into place on Euclid you would know this. How is the BRT making Cleveland "suburbanize" itself? Then you bring up legislation that was passed in Cleveland when the majoriy of the UO Clevelanders were too young to vote! Who said we're (or the majority of Clevelanders are) doing "cart wheels"? So now you're speaking for all of us here on UO and in Greater Cleveland? Not one person here is just letting our elected officials "get a pass", most of us are very active in our neighborhoods and are quick to email, fax, write our council person, mayor, county commisioner or various head of industry/bussiness etc. to keep them honest. Having an opionion is one thing, but being completely off base in your summation of UO-ians and then making passive aggressive and/or bipolar comments in regards to how we feel about the ECP is totally uncalled for.
June 27, 200717 yr havent been where too long? UO or cleveland? check my registered date and check yours....i dont post a lot i mostly read here. im born and raised in cleveland and 23 yrs old right now. actually, I was referring to the grander scale of "on the planet"... you're 23 years old, and while your enthusiasm is admirable, your social skills as exhibited here leave a bit to be desired how can you possibly describe the ECP as something that will supposedly revolutionize cleveland's transit system. please tell me how it isnt a glorified bus route with better stops. its not rail, its still a bus. nothing re-engineering and re-building about that when there was a streetcar line down euclid avenue before. doing that would be building light rail or a subway line. rebuilding, as in ripping the lunar landscape that was the former Euclid Avenue down to its foundation and completely building it back up -- work that would have NEEDED to be done whether the transportation alternative implemented was a bus above, rail above, or rail below re-engineering, as in use of modern materials rather than toothpaste-consistency asphalt with a crappy sub-base (take a look at the curbside of Ontario southbound south of Superior, while it's still there, and you'll see what heavy traffic does to a poorly constructed road), not to mention the signal prioritization that should improve the speed and efficiency of transit flow along the new avenue yes, there was a streetcar line down Euclid Avenue -- BEFORE... there were also horse-drawn carts that traveled a dirt path at one time, if we want to get really nostalgic calebrese is in charge and he's a rail hater himself......i doubt he was doing a whole lot of lobbying for rail along euclid when the ECP was being planned. RTA has a "settle-for-less" moto itself......it trickles down to everything in this city. cite your source (primary, not other posts/posters on UO) as far as Joe Calabrese being a "rail hater"... it's a comment I've heard many times, with little hard evidence to back it up, and simply saying something doesn't make it so (would that it did, we'd already have flying cars) as far as his not doing a lot of lobbying for rail along Euclid (another unsubstantiated claim, and it's always difficult to prove that someone DIDN'T do something), he likely didn't, as the funding being offered didn't allow for it... had Euclid Corridor funding not been pursued, it's likely we'd all be here saying "why didn't we get that money when we had the chance? instead, we've got NOTHING!" CTF216, I feel your pain, truly I do, but we do need to deal with the reality of the situation... ECP is coming to pass, so going forward, we need to be certain that the planning and development that takes place along the improved corridor follows the best tenets of TOD, and that future policies (zoning, PILOT incentives, etc...) encourage growth that can be sustained and supported by the available transportation option... by the same token, there are other areas where rail is still a viable option (commuter links to the west, south, and east), and the existing rail system does present opportunities for improvement... funding is the first step, and that starts with the people who hold the purse strings, who are decidedly NOT RTA (think State Legislature)
June 27, 200717 yr Excellent post, JeTDoG "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 27, 200717 yr Barnes & Noble College Booksellers to build on Euclid Avenue Barnes & Noble College Booksellers is coming to downtown Cleveland, the first step in a plan to establish a bustling residential and business area around Cleveland State University. The store, expected to open in August at 2020 Euclid Ave., is viewed as the anchor to a long-discussed redevelopment plan called College Town. The goal is to create a traditional college-town atmosphere around the urban campus at Euclid and East 21st Street. Bill Beckenbach, director of the community development group Quadrangle Inc., said verbal agreements have been made between Barnes & Noble College Booksellers and Brothers Printing, owners of the 2020 Euclid Ave. property occupied by a vacant Goodwill store. full story at http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business-2/1182933390133010.xml&coll=2 best comment is at the end of the story, when Beckenbach states, "I think the next five years are going to be just as exciting . . . on Euclid Avenue." Quadrangle, Inc.'s web site is http://www.thequadrangle.org/
June 27, 200717 yr Excellent post, JeTDoG thanks, KJP... coming from one such as you, with your background and gift for the written word, that is indeed high praise... I was once a youth as "passionate" (some would say hot-headed) as CTF, but time, experience, and the guiding hand of those who came before me served to temper and direct that passion... of course, some folks in local gub'mint ain't seen nuthin' yet!!! :evil: :shoot: :shoot: :evil: :whip: :whip: :whip:
June 30, 200717 yr i feel like a tape recorder as ive already said what needs to be said so this is my last post in this thread. the ECP is a glorified bus route and a waste of money. nothing more to be said. its common sense. maybe i wouldnt be so heated over a BRT if i knew it was going to be converted into rail after it is trialed. but knowin RTA this is going to be somethin built to last decades. Do you live in the city or the burbs? i live on buckeye. where do you live half of the time? new york city? What have you done to help improve Greater Cleveland? Where were you when the ECP was being planned? Where were you when the dual rail project was being discussed? LOL... what the hell is this about and what is it supposed to mean? seriously... where was i when the ECP as being planned? probably in school lookin at the clock waitin to get out. what kind of sense does this question make to ask me? im not a city official How is the BRT making Cleveland "suburbanize" itself? Then you bring up legislation that was passed in Cleveland when the majoriy of the UO Clevelanders were too young to vote! i wasnt even referrin to BRT when i said cleveland is suburbanizing itself. i was referrin to planning and new development in this city as a whole and knocking down what already exists. but if you want to be honest, BRT isnt going to urbanize anything the way that rail + TOD can. you cant "suburbanize" euclid ave downtown obviously but what about the stretch adjacent to DT in midtown? thats an area that badly needs to get built up. considerin that corridor houses CSU with their college town plans it makes perfect sense that this be light rail/modern streetcar with TOD. i dont see how BRT is going to spur that kind of TOD, but i could be wrong. what should be traversing euclid... portland oregon is urban planning and TOD done right glorified bus route even atlanta plans to have streetcars in the CBD and nearby. houston has light rail on downtown streets. these are cities that are looked at by all of us as much worse urban planning than cleveland actually, I was referring to the grander scale of "on the planet"... you're 23 years old, and while your enthusiasm is admirable, your social skills as exhibited here leave a bit to be desired sorry grandpa, i'll only speak when spoken to. im just a "hot headed 23 yr old"....what do i know about anything? back in your day they used to walk barefoot 15 miles in the snow i didnt know i was a "youth" though. i wish i was still a youth....wouldnt have anything to worry about. yes, there was a streetcar line down Euclid Avenue -- BEFORE... there were also horse-drawn carts that traveled a dirt path at one time, if we want to get really nostalgic this is your response to me sayin there used to be a streetcar network? :clap:
June 30, 200717 yr CTownsFinest, I'm in accord with your thinking. I'd just stress that downtown there should be a subway. I'm not a fan of these downtown LRT transit malls in big cities. It only reflects the lack of guts in the USA to build real rapid transit... Could LRT be effective rising at, say, CSU? yes. But downtown it should be underground. As we speak, Dallas, w/ it's highly successful new LRT is looking to undo their mistake by burying its LRT into a subway tunnel.
June 30, 200717 yr So what do you guys think of the Midtown overlay? Do you guys think that will help?
July 2, 200717 yr yes, it's slightly off topic, but I believe very germane to a thread as polarized as this: It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. --Teddy Roosevelt, 1910, speaking at The Sorbonne now then, back to our regularly scheduled debate...
July 2, 200717 yr A while back somebody asked about the trees being planted along the corridor. I had a chance to take some pics of them last week along with a few others from the project: I wish they would get tarted on this building already
July 2, 200717 yr That's what I thought at first, but where the poles are located there doesn't seem to be any streets intersecting Euclid. Like the one in front of the Agora.
July 2, 200717 yr The station at E. 40th is done - on the 6 heading downtown this weekend I saw it but couldn't pull my camera out in time to get a picture. Looks good - someone else want to venture by?
July 2, 200717 yr That's what I thought at first, but where the poles are located there doesn't seem to be any streets intersecting Euclid. Like the one in front of the Agora. It looks like the one you are referroing to goes right over a station platform. They may be posting station signs on these that over-hang the street.
July 2, 200717 yr The station at E. 40th is done - on the 6 heading downtown this weekend I saw it but couldn't pull my camera out in time to get a picture. Looks good - someone else want to venture by? JT, I did the exact same thing on Saturday....on the 6 and I had to look twice really believe the station was sticking out of the ground. I only had my cell phone and no picture came out.
July 2, 200717 yr ^ please do. i need to see something completed. sure it's a huge project, but this is really dragging along. edit: you got it thx! ok, ok...it looks good.
July 2, 200717 yr I don't think it's dragging so badly now. I've seen considerable progress over the past 6 months. All the un-sexy work gets done first (like the moving of utilities a couple of years back), and that's what takes the longest. Still, it's 18 months away from completion-- I want to be able to ride the damn thing! :wink:
July 2, 200717 yr Gah, just seeing that picture I get the feeling that this BRT is going to be a lot more interesting and important than most people think.
July 3, 200717 yr Having gone out to E 40th yesterday around lunchtime (and gotten beat to the camera click by gildone, whose photo was much better than my cellphone shot), and then taking the 9X outbound last night, I too was amazed by the amount of progress that has been made. There are two more platforms in the vicinity of CSU and slightly east that will probably be completed in the next 60 days, and massive amounts of concrete roadbed have been poured, even in the E 9th - E 22nd stretch (although there is construction on E 21st south of Euclid, next to Rascal House, that looks like it will be there for a while). Hopefully, the Clinic can get over their case of cranial-rectal inversion and allow their portion of the project to proceed. If it's all going on around them, they'd look foolish to put any (no pun intended) roadblocks in the way. On a side note, Cafe Ah-Roma makes KILLER iced coffee, and their spicy turkey feta wrap is fantastic! By the by, their business is hardly "suffering", when I was in there, the line was backed up enough that they had order runners, including the MOD, coming from behind the counter to pre-take orders... I guess a little thing like an arrest is good for business...
July 3, 200717 yr I don't think it's dragging so badly now. I've seen considerable progress over the past 6 months. All the un-sexy work gets done first (like the moving of utilities a couple of years back), and that's what takes the longest. Still, it's 18 months away from completion-- I want to be able to ride the damn thing! :wink: i am glad to hear that because this i saw pope's recent pic below before i saw this thread and the street looks exactly like it did when i was there last summer. ugh.
July 3, 200717 yr It depends upon where you look. The area between CSU and E.55 is really coming along well. I'm starting to become very impressed with this project.
July 3, 200717 yr They've poured some concrete on my block between E12th and E9th. It appears to be a somewhat randomly selected spot to pour, but I'm sure there's a reason. I'm just praying it means they'll be pouring the rest sooner rather than later. I agree, it appears they have stepped it up a bit. Something should still be done about the crosswalks, though.
July 3, 200717 yr figured I'd post these anyway, my view of the E 40th platform: because someone had asked about them, a look at the trees in front of the AMI campus: and the platform near Fenn Tower, which looks like it might be the next one on the completion list:
July 3, 200717 yr apparently 200 PS and area will be getting a second new temporary sidewalk to replace the beach we've had since the fall.
July 3, 200717 yr I'm glad to hear (and see) all these signs of progress. We knew it would be a long project, but I think many of us (I'm guilty) tended to dwell on the bumps in the road (literally and figuratively) instead of the positives. Given, there has been plenty to complain about, I have defended this project ardently to anyone who claims it's a waste of time and money... On that note, I certainly believe (as most of us here do) that a Portland MAX-style corridor would be much more significant and its impact more broadly felt. But, as we've seen throughout this thread, the way the thing shook out, we will have ourselves a BRT line and a drastically improved "storefront-to-storefront" streetscape from Public Square to East Cleveland along Euclid Avenue. The spinoff investment is already being felt and who knows, somewhere down the line, upgrading to LRT could be feasible! As for the Portland Streetcar reference... that smaller, highly successful effort has been the product of a much different strategy from the MAX. They are operated by different entities, but function well together. My understanding is that the PS is a transit line that is operated independently of Tri-Met and the MAX. Passes are good for both systems, but the funding for the PS has come in large part from TIFs and private developers. The line has been very popular and has been extended more than once. It is, however, a lower-capacity line than the MAX. It is also lower capacity than our BRT will be. The cars are small and seating room is limited. It's reserved primarily for shorter trips and the "hop on-hop off" type of commute. It serves this purpose very well, but I don't think it would've satisfied the needs of our Euclid Corridor. That said, I think at Portland Streetcar type line would work tremendously on a Downtown to Near-West loop... roughly contained within the Innerbelt-to-West 25th Street area. Or if getting across the river is not possible, just covering the Downtown loop. TIFs on Avenue District, Pesht, and FEB could help drive this, but minus these big projects, I don't necessarily think there's demand for much more than the Trolley's we've got right now. This topic, of course, is discussed at length on this thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5563.0
July 3, 200717 yr Great to see all the pictures showing progress. The trees are pretty impressive and not as small and scattered as I was fearing (after at some point reading the sizes would be downsized to save money) You can even see that there are built in sprinkler systems, which may insure that they will live and grow, or at least live to see the completion of the project...
July 3, 200717 yr Thanks JTG (and gildone) for the photos. I too am getting [re]excited by the project. And like Map Boy said, when it's time to replace the concrete road bed in X years, maybe there will be a different policitcal/economic climate and rail will be on the table... Question: what's up with the extra height in the station pavillion? It looks cool but not sure the cantaliever is going to be keeping anyone dry with our wind-driven rain and snow. Also, what type of trees are those?
July 3, 200717 yr With the one close up of the trees, it looks like they may be ornamental pear... They have that columnar shape and shiny rounded leaves.
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