one lane of automobile traffic and one lane of BRT traffic in each direction is hardly frightening.  I think what the CC needs to do to make their environment more inviting is actually do something to foster more street and sidewalk life.  Creating another barrier to reinforce this single-use island campus is only going to make their campus worse.  This isn't Mayfield Village, after all!  It used to be a bustling entertainment and shopping area with brownstones and thousands of residents!

^ I agree. As much as I find the proposal interesting, I can't imagine the Clinic can't unify their campus and add greenspace to the street without closing Euclid Avenue traffic.

Guv,

 

I am pretty sure that the Clinic owns most, if not all, of the commericial strips within its 'campus'. Long term, CCF is looking to build office/research structures on those parcels.The Rite Aid that is across the street from the new Heart Center will most likely be moved to the north side of Chester to make way for the new grand entrance.  The BP will also be moved.  Oh, there is a great chance that the Rite Aid will front the sidewalk and be part of a new mixed-use structure.

 

 

I am undecided about this plan until I see more of it.

 

While some are trotting out the old "suburban crap" arguments, I think that this idea merits consideration due to its unique and outside of the box-style of thinking. I feel that some of the reactions on this board are akin to knee-jerk new urbanism.  The Clinic's plan is a new way of thinking about an area. An area, I add, that is completely different than it was 80 years ago. And let's face it, with the expansion of the Clinic, we won't be seeing the E.105 of the glorious past return to us anytime soon. There are some potential advantages to this as well as many probable pitfalls. Let's see what they really have planned before throwing CCF to the dogs.  Trying to turn every corner of this city into a mom-and-pop store on the first floor with four stories of condos above is the not the way to create an innovative and distinct city.  Let's not cut and paste NYC all over CLE. I would hope that we could take a fresh look at our city and re-invent ourselves when and where its best.

Greenspace for visitors with money. 

 

So what are the visitors with money going to do in the vacated ROW of Euclid that they can't do on any of the many poorly used little nooks of greenspace already available?  Take a walk, perhaps?  They can do that on the sidewalk.

 

Greenspace for healing in the outdoors environment. 

 

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean beyond "feel good" new age-ism.  I doubt that merely adding more greenspace won't create a healing environment.

 

Greenspace for taking a break while cycling down Euclid.   

 

How much room does it take to sit and take a break?  I would think a pocket park would do.

 

Greenspace to unify the suburbanized campus of the Clinic. 

 

I have an idea!  Unify the campus with a landscaped boulevard!  Unify it by orienting it to Cleveland's main street!

 

How many patients to you suppose are "locked up" inside the Clinic afraid to come outside into what is a rather frightening urban area.

 

That area is frightening?  And this will make it less frightening how?

 

If the Clinic can better orient the strip shopping centers in order to make them ped-friendly and keep the bike lanes, I'm basically all for this project.

 

I don't see how this will achieve those things any better than the current boulevard plan.

 

Are we strengthening our main street as a whole?  What exactly do you mean by MAIN street? Car carrying capacity?  Transit capacity? Historical Significance? People Experience? Who/What are streets for anyways?  I think Euclid would be better utilized in the long run and in it's entirety without car lanes at all.

 

Are you even being serious here?  Are you completely unfamiliar with Cleveland, or are you playing the old "define your terms" game?  Ten pages into a discussion on Euclid Ave, I'm not going to tell you how and why Euclid is Cleveland's main street.

Trying to turn every corner of this city into a mom-and-pop store on the first floor with four stories of condos above is the not the way to create an innovative and distinct city.  Let's not cut and paste NYC all over CLE. I would hope that we could take a fresh look at our city and re-invent ourselves when and where its best.

 

Yes, LeCorbusier's now-debunked "towers in the park" philosophy is indeed fresh.  Let's create more dead zones in the name of innovation. 

 

 

Dan,

 

That's not my point. My point is that we should'nt look at projects with tunnel-vision.  I think that we do that too often in our little make-believe city planning world on Urban Ohio.  If I had to take a side, I'd rather stick with the current Euclid--I don't necessarily trust CCF to do good work.  That said, I cringe when I read people summarily dismissing new and different ideas before they've taken more than a glance at them.

I will continue to believe that this is a positive move. Instead of looking at it as the 'big bad clinic' imposing their will on us, I can see the benefits it will have for the whole area. CCF does not spare any expense when it comes to building projects. I trust they have very creative minds working on this. Considering the number of pro-masstransit posters on this forum, I don't understand the backlash against this. I mean how cool will it be to ride the BRT thru that area and see 20 blocks of landscaping, people outside talking and enjoying the gardens, trying to take a couple of minutes to get their minds off of the crucial work that they do. I see this as a whole medical corridor, with new businesses wanting to be a part of it. And being that the clinic is a "health" facility how good will it be to remove a couple tons of emission from the air everyday, so you can actually breathe around there. The Clinic employs thousands of people at very good wages, and will continue to be on the cutting edge. It's one of the few growth industries in this town. But as usual in Cleveland we don't listen to the needs and concerns of our biggest employers, and eventually chase them away. Having spent alot of time at the clinic while my dad was a patient, I was impressed with the concern and professional attitude they had while they were saving his life. The clinic is vital to this community, I am confident everyone will adapt, and the city will have a very unique area that everyone can enjoy.

 

From what I'm reading, it seems that many have already concluded that a CCF takeover of these several blocks of Euclid has been done before (in one form or another) and failed.  Generally speaking, streets that have been closed to vehicle access tend to suffer economically.

 

Personally, I'd rather see the Clinic try to generate more pedestrian activity along Euclid, which would increase the safety and attractiveness of the neighborhood.  It seems that limiting the traffic to buses and peds would only achieve the opposite effect.  I think Cleveland already has enough dead zones, and needs to create more pockets of activity, instead of segregated pockets of isolated areas. 

I am mixed about the idea of a park in the middle. I dont like the idea of fancy bus stops in a middle of a park. It will be a stop used by only clinic people, I want all stops along the silver line be used by as many groups of people as possible. I dont like the idea of pointless meandering paths, with special landscaped lawns and flowerbeads. Ever been to a college campus? The smart ones put down the paths after they determine the shortest path between 2 buildings or after people have beat down the grass to dirt. If the paths dont lead to the shotest distance, they dont get used and everything gets trampled. I try and think the good of this would be like the train that goes through portlands campus.

 

I just hope that the clinic landscapes wisley to best use of the greenspace, rather than what they think would look pretty.

Funny, I was just thinking about college campuses too- everytime I walk through a good one I wonder why it's only in college most people live within an attractive pedestrian-oriented environment.

 

I'm with Wim on this- I'm not going to dismiss this out of hand and I think it's important to look past "new urban" instincts and aim for broader urban ones instead.  It's Ok to block streets sometimes.  Sometimes mega-blocks can be cool.  Enclosed shopping areas aren't always terrible.  And Dan, even some Corbusian towers in the park schemes have worked out.  The clinic already owns the surrounding land- it's not like this is gonna stifle any non-clinic bloom of mixed-use development on this stretch.  If they come up with some cool plans I'd definitely listen.  Not sure how this negatively effects the BRT except for the re-design delays and expenses (which might be significant), but this would only make the buses move faster and the Clinic-oriented stations (which are going to be used almost exclusively by Clinic staff and visitors anyhow) only more attractive.

 

Funny, I was just thinking about college campuses too- everytime I walk through a good one I wonder why it's only in college most people live within an attractive pedestrian-oriented environment.

 

I'm with Wim on this- I'm not going to dismiss this out of hand and I think it's important to look past "new urban" instincts and aim for broader urban ones instead.  It's Ok to block streets sometimes.  Sometimes mega-blocks can be cool.  Enclosed shopping areas aren't always terrible.  And Dan, even some Corbusian towers in the park schemes have worked out.  The clinic already owns the surrounding land- it's not like this is gonna stifle any non-clinic bloom of mixed-use development on this stretch.  If they come up with some cool plans I'd definitely listen.  Not sure how this negatively effects the BRT except for the re-design delays and expenses (which might be significant), but this would only make the buses move faster and the Clinic-oriented stations (which are going to be used almost exclusively by Clinic staff and visitors anyhow) only more attractive.

 

 

I heartily agree.  I would add that if the Clinic's plan is going to increase the cost of the Silver Line work, the Clinic should pay for it.

an image from Channel 5 (those trees look awfully mature)

Jackson opposes ban on Euclid Ave. traffic

Thursday, July 27, 2006

Susan Vinella

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Mayor Frank Jackson does not support a Cleveland Clinic plan to block cars from Euclid Avenue near the hospital's campus to make it more pedestrian friendly.

 

The Clinic wants to eliminate cars from a 20-block stretch between East 86th and East 105th streets. Buses would continue to operate on the avenue.

 

...........

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/115398908936920.xml&coll=2

This article is a bit vague.  It doesn't expand upon Jackson's thoughts at all. I assume that he's still open to listening if CCF says "what's important is that we have all the information before we decide what we're going to do."  Or maybe CCF is in denial.

 

 

Its good to see a lot of cement in the ground.  Working downtown, I feel like the ECTP is moving along at a snail's pace. I peeked out past E.30th and noticed that a lot of concrete had been poured.  Good to see some progress.

I took the 9X over to University Circle yesterday and lemme tell ya - the ride was about as smooth as the Mine Ride at Cedar Point. :lol: But yeah, they're definitely making some progress.

I noticed that cement being poured also. By summers end the West bound side should be completed, then they'll start on the east bound side. Does anyone know if they have to have the stretch from Public Square to Windemere finished by 2008, or just the stretch from public square to the circle?

I noticed that cement being poured also. By summers end the West bound side should be completed, then they'll start on the east bound side. Does anyone know if they have to have the stretch from Public Square to Windemere finished by 2008, or just the stretch from public square to the circle?

 

 

I think the entire corridor is supposed to by done in by late 2008 

I took the 9X over to University Circle yesterday and lemme tell ya - the ride was about as smooth as the Mine Ride at Cedar Point. :lol: But yeah, they're definitely making some progress.

 

The 9x is definitely better than the 6, but any way you slice it, whether the bus or driving, the abysmal lack of timing of the traffic lights right now makes traveling Euclid extremely painful.  I can't wait for the corridor to be done...

Cleveland Clinic wants pedestrian Mall from e. 86 to e 105. 

 

See the posting at Green City-Blue Lake:

 

http://www.gcbl.org/blog/marc-lefkowitz/clinics-public-square-stirs-interest

the euclid corridor is a stupid idea. let's spend millions of dollars on a glorified bus route. yay! there should be a light rail or street car line built down euclid. RTA is so backwards

Also Does anyone know if the project an be retrofitted in later years to light rail? So if they decide to put light rail in all they really have to do is put down tracks. I'm waiting to see how well the bus system moves along, because It seems like since it will have right of way at lights and have its own dedicated tracks, it would operate as efficiently as the green and blue lines. Really though I just want to see new urban developments along Euclid Avenue and if this really helps it I'm all for it.

^anything could probably be converted, but 2 of the major items needed for rail are not there:

 

1) no rails installed (obviously)

2) no overhead electric service.

 

if the buses were electric, then i would think a conversion would be a more feasible option.  as it stands now, it costs anywhere from 1-1.5 million per mile to electricfy.

Originally, the Euclid Corridor would have had electric trolley buses powered from overhead wires (like in Dayton and other cities). And, some at RTA in the late 1990s wanted to put rails in the pavement for future conversion to light-rail. But that and the overhead wires were nixed in cost-cutting moves in order to win federal funds for the project. At the time, the feds weren't interested in new-start transit projects, and the Euclid Corridor was one of the few new starts approved for funding.

Cleveland Clinic wants pedestrian Mall from e. 86 to e 105. 

 

See the posting at Green City-Blue Lake:

 

http://www.gcbl.org/blog/marc-lefkowitz/clinics-public-square-stirs-interest

 

What do folks think?

 

 

 

Sorry for the double post, but I posted this as a topic, but it got moved into this thread, without the topic title, so no one would have known what it was about...

the euclid corridor is a stupid idea. let's spend millions of dollars on a glorified bus route. yay! there should be a light rail or street car line built down euclid. RTA is so backwards

 

Saying there should be light rail or street car is just as ass backwards.  since both of those options still will still be "surface transit".

 

Also, have you been to the ECP website...its so much more than just a "glofified" bus route!  lets not knock it before its even made its maiden voyage.

 

Everyone here wishes we had a subway under euclid...We don't...so lets deal with the reality of what we have and hold RTA and our Elected officials accountable for what is being built so we can make sure (if its a failure) that is doesn't happen again and if its a succes, make them think outside the box for RAIL instead of a bus, as more people in NEO are moving into the city and Cleveland proper has the most scheduled residential building in Ohio.  ESPECIALLY in or near its urban core.

the euclid corridor is a stupid idea. let's spend millions of dollars on a glorified bus route. yay! there should be a light rail or street car line built down euclid. RTA is so backwards

 

It's certainly better than what we have now which is an ugly, bumpy urban street with no light-timing to speak of.  Yeah, rail would have been better, but I'll take this too.  The #6 buses get so crowded now that 60 foot buses with pre-paid boarding and the ability of bus drivers to prioritize the traffic signals, it will be a big improvement.

Well, something has gone wrong. They are tearing up all of the nearly-laid concrete on the E.17 extension. However, they are being very careful with it. They cut it up into squares and are gently placing them into dump trucks.  ???

Back to the whole clinic plan

 

Lets not get soo hung up on Euclid's glorious past.  I think the idea is more than worthwhile.  We really need these kinds of radical proposals if the city's to keep moving forward. 

 

-What's the problem with green anyway.  Like the other poster stated, there's a place for everything, and I don't really think a vision for a hospital should be to look like a mini city.  I'm sure patients and their families too would appreciate the increased serenity that would come from this. 

 

-Also, I'm fine with the clinic being a pocket of landscaped curvy glassy suburban buildings.  We have the whole rest of the city and surrounding area for streetfront buildings. 

 

-In terms of negativity towards the clinic, I think we should give them some credit for actually caring about what their campus looks like to the point that they come up with this ambitious plan.  They even want to pay for it themselves.  Its not a bad plan, really. 

 

-There's housing springing up all around the clinic.  Its more than reasonable for the clinic to expect new residents to want to have more landscaped green space in the city. 

 

-If the buses can still run through campus I'm all for it.  I think this is a strategy that can only benefit the surrounding area aesthetically speaking.

 

-Even the diversion is not that big of a deal - its only a few blocks people - why is everyone so interested in saving a traffic filled street?

 

-Lastly, while I agree that the clinic should have worked on this plan with RTA a long while ago, who knows what they were thinking about behind closed doors.  Perhaps there was too much red tape for the idea to even come forward in the past.  Or, maybe someone just thought of this vision now.  Regardless, I say late is better than never for a better plan!

-Even the diversion is not that big of a deal - its only a few blocks people - why is everyone so interested in saving a traffic filled street?

 

It changes Euclid from a through street to a local street.  That has a considerable impact on the viability of Euclid as a commercial street far beyond the area that will be closed.  It's essentially the same argument that we are seeing in Midtown over the offramps.  Business thrives on through traffic.

It changes Euclid from a through street to a local street.  That has a considerable impact on the viability of Euclid as a commercial street far beyond the area that will be closed.  It's essentially the same argument that we are seeing in Midtown over the offramps.  Business thrives on through traffic.

 

But in the case of the Clinic, there are still Carnegie and Chester Aves to get to the Clinic area and beyond.  Have you noticed how comparatively little traffic travels Euclic west of the Clinic?  It's because there is no light timing and the street is in such bad shape.  I don't think it will be difficult or an inconvenience for those who want to travel beyond the Clinic because it isn't now. 

 

 

 

That's not my point.  Reread my post.

. . . The here-today, gone-today pavement on East 17th Street . . . It was paved recently, between Euclid Avenue and Prospect Avenue. But on Friday, backhoes showed up, broke it up and had it trucked away. What a waste. What gives? Reader with a ringside seat.

 

A waste it was, but only of concrete and time. It is part of RTA's Euclid Corridor project. Jerry Masek, the transit authority's spokesman, said inspectors determined that the wrong kind of concrete was used, so the contractor agreed to take it up and replace it at no cost to RTA or to taxpayers. A parking lot was on the site before the Euclid Corridor got under way. Masek said the new pavement should be in by next week, and you should be able to drive on it by September.

 

agh  :x

You beat me to it.

 

I just got this from my friend after I asked about it

 

 

Unfortunately the contractor did not pour the right mix of concrete. The

City of Cleveland has a specific mix of concrete that must be used on

City streets. The contractor did not follow our specifications and ended

up pouring concrete that didn't meet City specifications. This is why it

had to be removed and will be re-poured.

 

 

 

 

Wow...between the W. 3rd Street Bridge and E. 17th Street, you think we might need a few new good civil engineers around here?

 

Here are some more photos from last week, all from E. 18th to E. 12th along Euclid:

 

The aforementioned E. 17th:

 

Sidewalk on the north side of Euclid just west of E. 12th:

 

On the south side, in front of the Halle Building:

 

In front of the Levin College:

 

The view from the 3rd floor of Levin, looking east:

I was walking along Euclid yesterday myself. I wanted to see what was under those blue tarps. Lots of pipes (see below)

Also, construction crews are removing asphalt from the theater area. I took a picture of something that looks like old trolley rails. I saw similar rails along State Avenue when they did a complete reconstruction a few years ago.

 

 

Euclid Avenue will not be syphoned off, it is a U.S. Route, which according to the Plain Dealer report several weeks  ago, would require an act of Congress to change.  Good luck with all that.

 

Also, what is the deal with the rail bridge over the intersection of Euclid and E55th Street?  I was involved with the design competition to rethink the bridge itself and the space below it last year (unfortunately I was not shortlisted, but that is besides the point) and the winning prize has never been announced.  I'd like to see what is going to happen there so I can complain about it in future posts on this thread.

^ i think that most of the public art funding for that intersection has been "value engineered" out of the project.

 

the last i heard was that no decision would be made until the final budget was known for the design/art component, and that it might end up just being a better painted rail bridge (which is not part of ECP funding). 

I worry that by the time the "value engineering" is done we will be left with a new bus riding on new asphault, which will be of no more value than what we started with.  "Value engineering" is such an unfortunate monicker.

I think 1% for public art is still the law for federal or state construction right??

^it might be, but if i recall, there was more interest in using the public art dollars in downtown and uc, rather than the proposals that were submitted for e55. 

 

but, i don't think any final decisions have been made, so if people want public art @ e55, they should speak up now. 

There's a huge section for public art in the construction documents that have been handed around to various organizations.  I haven't had a chance to peruse them, but they're in there!

Speaking of E.55th and Euclid, Midtown needs an anchor on Euclid Avenue as soon as possible. Maybe a development like Rockport Square, or a new Midtown Market? I know that bridge gets in the way, but if Midtown is ever going to have identity and vibrancy I think that location is pretty cruicial.

Has anyone approached Norfolk Southern to see if they want someone do some form of public art involving that bridge? I can't see that bridge, which has more than 70 freight trains a day traveling over it, being used as a public art canvas, unless it's merely going to be "dressed up." Sounds the like point is moot anyway with the value engineering stuff.

^Similar conversations are under way in the University Circle area...I'll keep ya posted!

Here's the Euclid Corridor public art master plan: http://www.clevelandpublicart.org/ECTPmaster.pdf. This is a sample of public art that could be installed; if all of the projects would be carried out, they would almost certainly exceed the 1% budget allocation. I spoke to someone associated with the E. 55th project several months back and was told that they are still planning on an installation at the bridge but that it was taking much longer than anticipated.

 

Meanwhile, the first big 1% project is slated to take place at four sites along Superior, in association with the Superior resurfacing that took place a while back. And a public art installation will also be installed later this year at the wind turbine site.

BRT Success Story from Canada. Thought this was relevant to what's going on in the Euclid Corridor.

 

York rapid transit lauded by U.S. group

Calls Viva high-tech transit system an `incredible success'

 

Buses have ability to turn red lights green if behind schedule

Aug. 3, 2006. 01:00 AM

KEVIN MCGRAN

TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

 

 

The very notion that a bus could provide "rapid transit" is in its infancy in North America, but the idea of a cheaper alternative to subway construction and light rail transit lines is beginning to take root.

 

And about 200 transit experts from across the United States have come to Toronto to see how the idea is working here.

 

They had to go to York Region to find out.

 

.........

 

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1154556609930&call_pageid=970599119419

Apparently the Clinic did not approach anyone in the neighborhood about this project before announcing to the public/RTA it's intention to close the street. 

 

Fannie Lewis was not in the loop and does not support it .  i don't know if that is a good thing as she seems to obstruct a lot, however, it seems pretty crazy that the clinic didn't at least consult with their neighborhood first.  kind of shows their mindset...

There seem to be too many hurdles and too many powerful people against this. I don't see it happening unless the Clinic offers something huge to the city.

I don't think it should be done.  A street network like the one proposed seems very uninviting to a visitor to the city.