Clvlndr, we have yet to see what benefits BRT will offer the city, Its not finished yet remember. So In 10 to 15 we'll see. Wasn't Marta's built in the 70's? Atlanta is just now getting highrise condos. So, no BRT is not a subway, but we really don't know what will happen once its up and running for a while do we?

 

Additionally were'nt those homes built prior to BRT even being announced, when the plan was still to try and get a Subway under Euclid?

^Actually, MARTA's 1st line was a short link to the East in 1979.  The core leg up Peachtree was built sometime in the mid-80s... I'm not saying BRT will have no benefits, but why was Atlanta, which had no rail prior to 1979, able to build a core subway and in Cleveland, which has had rapid transit since the 1920s, unable to do so?  But like most new transit cities Dallas, Denver, among them -- Atlanta's leaders settled on a transit plan and, then, went out to get funding, mainly federal, to fund it.  Here in Cleveland, we can't even discern a cognizable transit plan because of all the bickering and posturing -- hence dual-hub is relegated to Cleveland's un-built Hall of Shame like the failed subway of the 1950s.

 

I say it's because we've unlearned the things that made this City great and have downsized our expectations considerably because we've had so many disappointments.  I get your point, but no matter how you slice it or dice it, BRT up your main corridor when you're an experienced rapid transit city is a setback and embarrassment.

 

Additionally were'nt those homes built prior to BRT even being announced, when the plan was still to try and get a Subway under Euclid?

 

Actually, I believe Beacon Place and those mac-mansions along Chester were developed/built in the late 1990s before BRT and after the failure of dual-hub.  BRT is already encouraging some development, like the proposed hotel at the transit terminal at E. 18th (I think).  That's good.  I'm all for it.  But I just can't believe BRT would encourage the kind of high-density development a subway would have a-la Midtown Atlanta, or D.C. (pick your neighborhood or close-in burb).

Truthfully I think the boom in highrises is more about midtown and Buckhead Atlanta being "hot" and desirable. That facillitates the construction of those spaces. The transit may help, but I don't think thats what seals the deal. ATL's Marta ridership is 65.5 million in a region of 5 million+, while GCRTA is at 57 million riders in a region of what 2-3 million. One Thing both systems have in common is that they both connect huge job centers with transit and for Atlanta the space in between has seen remarkable growth we'll see for Cleveland. Because projects are just really starting to be announced, maybe developers are waiting to see how this things takes off or fails, guess we'll see.

 

 

 

I'd like improvements in other areas, too (frankly, I don't know what you mean by bus improvements for I don't see any that really will significanty advance RTA over what it is);

 

when i say "improvements" i don't mean new buses.  i am talking about restoring service cuts to the number, length and frequency of routes.   it is almost impossible to get places in cleveland after the "normal" business day using bus transit.  I'd also like to see transit environments that encourage ridership by providing schedule and route information, lighting/heaters, etc.  Since as a region we aren't "booming" right now, we have to encourage and create ridership in other ways.  some of this could be new construction, but i think a lot of it is getting the current operation to a new level.

 

i'm not content with this investment decison on the ECP by the leaders in this region, but it is being made, so i'll let it run its course and try to focus on other areas where rail could work - extending red line south of airport, extending blue line east toward euclid, and extending green line west under detroit superior and onto new shoreway or down detroit.  i think rail can and should be in these areas and i'd much rather spend the money to make it happen than to re-engineer the ECP in the next 20 years.

I see urbanlife still has no clue.

That's a pretty tactless comment - care to elaborate?

I doubt we'll ever see a subway on Euclid, since the Silver Line is geared for long-term. It's just as good as a subway though. We'll probably see a rail line or subway on Superior, W. 25th, Clifton, or Detroit Avenue before we ever see one on Euclid, if we ever see one anywhere at all!

The Euclid Corridor Project is perhaps the first of many TRANSIT UPGRADES of its caliber in the city of Cleveland.  This type of system has changed population trends in the city if Curitiba, Brazil, creating one of the finest and most efficient transit systems in the world, serving a high density population.  The ECP is not simply new buses for the #6.  It may even prove to be more successful than a subway under Euclid Avenue because its visibilty on ground level, development potential-wise (getting people on the streets as opposed to below ground).  A subway may be the more efficient option as far as commute time, but the development potential for the above ground option is just as great if not greater.

Sometimes urbanlife's comments remind me of something Dick Feagler would say at his pessimistic Clevelander best.

It's [The Silver Line is] just as good as a subway though.

 

I beg to differ.  As long as the Silver Line buses have to share the road with cars and snowplows it cannot maintain an on-time schedule as well as a subway.  We'll have to wait and see, but it SHOULD be better than a standard bus route what with platform stations that will be nearly permanent and traffic light transponders.  The roads will still have to be plowed and drivers will have to learn to stay out of the bus lanes, particularly at intersections.

 

Euclid doesn't seem to be being used that much right now, maybe we could get the cars off of it entirely -- bike lanes and bus lanes only anyone?

:-)

 

 

While I wish we had built a subway instead, we didn't, and I don't see it happening now for at least 50 years.  But I hope we will consider converting the Silver Line to light rail in the future, after we address other transit needs.

Perhaps i should just be looking for another group who are not just talking about we can have this or we can have that,and look for a group that is surmised to change this.

Like for example why is calabrese still in charge. :whip:

 

  Now I would like to know who would participate in a flash mob in front the RTA building.

 

  The chant should be "  We want subways not a (a bad word) named calabrese.Could we get atleast 100 to 200 people in this mob :yap: :clap:

anyone interested.

 

 

:shoot: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

...This type of system has changed population trends in the city if Curitiba, Brazil, creating one of the finest and most efficient transit systems in the world, serving a high density population. 

Do you know the population of Curitiba?  Is it a city that grew rapidly during the period or after they put the BRT in place?  Thanks

Edsiou makes my favourite posts ever.

I studied urban and environmental planning in curitiba during the summer of 2006. 

 

The population of the metro area is 3M with a nearly even split between city and suburbs.  while the city's population has been steadily increasing for the past 50 years, the redline BRT has engendered a notable amount of high rise residential buildings. 

however, curitiba's redline runs in its own lane (no cars allowed), it never snows, the buses run every 62 seconds, and the city enforced high density zoning parallel to the line.

High density zoning along the ECP wouldn't, check that, shouldn't, be that difficult to force.  There is that build up to the sidewalk thing, but that shouldn't really need to be said.

^tell that to those shops at church square, or health space or the cleveland clinic or......

 

Well as long as going forward they give the zoning some enforceability....

 

(yes I realize you are saying going forward it wouldn't be hard to enforce, not the current status quo)

Curitiba's redline runs in its own lane (no cars allowed), it never snows, the buses run every 62 seconds, and the city enforced high density zoning parallel to the line.

 

Every 62 seconds?  Wow.

Or how about the Aldi's and the church next to it.  What prefabricated building catalogue did they select that from?  An embarressment  to say the least.  Unbelieveable how people have been allowed to piss all over that street with garbage buildings.

Or how about the Aldi's and the church next to it.  What prefabricated building catalogue did they select that from?  An embarressment  to say the least.  Unbelieveable how people have been allowed to piss all over that street with garbage buildings.

 

Absolutely none of which is the direct fault of RTA. I'm not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but let's make sure criticism is being leveled where it should be (no, w28th, this isn't directed at you, it's a general statement that your statement happened to provide a good catalyst for, which is why I quoted it).

 

City zoning & planning, or the lack thereof, is as much if not more to blame for the ills of this area as any presence or lack of a particular transportation system. Edsiou, if you want to pull a flashmob stunt somewhere, start with city/county hall...

^Agreed. I don't think anyone here was blaming RTA for past ills.

 

As far as I can tell: We would just like to see RTA actively market and work with local authorities to ensure that all future development on the corridor (and subsequent pedestrian watershed) be of a dense, urban, built to the curb nature.

any future subway along euclid would not need to be bored out, unless there are big advances in future boring machines and the price comes down for using them, i'd guess a euc subway would likely be cut and cover.

 

yeah i am still fuming over the dual hub debacle when i think about it. it wasn't perfect, but it would have meant a real subway. too bad. no sense crying over it anymore tho. today rta and all of us have to push and promote what pope just said, that the corridor is rebuilt to urban form.

 

You're right, there's no sense crying over spilt BRT.  It's just that, the comments about sewer rebuilding possibly allowing for subway conversion down the road, caught my eye... There's been discussion, elsewhere, about how easy it could be to converted ECP to light rail someday and, then, dropping the line below surface downtown.  It's an intriguing thought, but shouldn't have morphed into further BRT bashing and dual hub mourning.  I've made myself pretty clear on how regretful I am about that... Time to move on.

^Agreed. I don't think anyone here was blaming RTA for past ills.

 

As far as I can tell: We would just like to see RTA actively market and work with local authorities to ensure that all future development on the corridor (and subsequent pedestrian watershed) be of a dense, urban, built to the curb nature.

 

Amen to that, brother...

 

I think we are all on the same side (well, most of us, anyway)... like clvlndr said, it was my reaction to what was perceived as heading down the path of further BRT bashing and dual hub mourning, not to mention the marginally personal attacks that have been made against Joe Calabrese.

 

Love or hate his policies (and most of them are not necessarily, in fact, HIS policies, as he serves at the pleasure of a board of political appointees, and serving multiple masters is never easy), he has kept that organization moving forward at a time when the region as a whole has suffered, and we should all (yes, even you, Edsiou) afford him the simple respect that one affords another human being. One can make a reasoned argument without resorting to statements like "We want subways not a (a bad word) named calabrese".

Or how about the Aldi's and the church next to it.  What prefabricated building catalogue did they select that from?  An embarressment  to say the least.  Unbelieveable how people have been allowed to piss all over that street with garbage buildings.

 

Absolutely none of which is the direct fault of RTA. I'm not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but let's make sure criticism is being leveled where it should be (no, w28th, this isn't directed at you, it's a general statement that your statement happened to provide a good catalyst for, which is why I quoted it).

 

City zoning & planning, or the lack thereof, is as much if not more to blame for the ills of this area as any presence or lack of a particular transportation system. Edsiou, if you want to pull a flashmob stunt somewhere, start with city/county hall...

 

 

The area is in an overlay zone that required for Aldis to have a setback up to the side walk, as opposed to the typical parking in front of the store we have been used to seeing over the past two decades or so of retail development. So I would not start any demonstrations against the city. The developers have most of the power when it comes to how a building is to look - especially  retail. If the city has to many restrictions, then the developer/company can cry  about exclusionary zoning.

 

 

On another note:

 

I have been walking along parts of Euclid Avenue recently and noticed many detail of the EC taking place. Trees, Lights, etc.

Here is a sewer cover near the Science Building on CSU. Pretty cool stuff.

 

 

 

The area is in an overlay zone that required for Aldis to have a setback up to the side walk, as opposed to the typical parking in front of the store we have been used to seeing over the past two decades or so of retail development. So I would not start any demonstrations against the city. The developers have most of the power when it comes to how a building is to look - especially  retail. If the city has to many restrictions, then the developer/company can cry  about exclusionary zoning.

 

 

On another note:

 

I have been walking along parts of Euclid Avenue recently and noticed many detail of the EC taking place. Trees, Lights, etc.

Here is a sewer cover near the Science Building on CSU. Pretty cool stuff.

 

 

Personally, I think the architect/developer/builder really boned it when they designed that Aldi -- while I appreciate and applaud the sidewalk-edge setback, orienting the entrance away from the street was just asinine.

 

I'd be curious to see about an exclusionary zoning challenge, though. I think as long as standards are universally applied, one can't necessarily cry "exclusionary". Now, if it said that grocery stores must have their entrances oriented to the sidewalk, but churches can have them at the rear of the building, I'd see a challenge there in a moment. Restrictive ! always = exclusionary. I think the city could stand to push the envelope just a touch...

 

As far as the sewer cover, tree bases, etc... (nice photo, btw) -- I was less than enthusiastic when I saw the rusted patina they were going with, but as it weathers to a less glaring orange, it's kind of growing on me... I think it was just the drama of the bright white concrete and the bright rust orange metal that was a bit overpowering.

That's a nice sewer cover -- too bad it's going to be surrounded by busted up concrete curbs 3 or 4 years from now. Is value engineering out the granite curbs really a value in the long run?

What is with the half-sewer cover?  It looks like they sawed it in half.  I go to CSU for grad school, and the Monday after finals they immediately closed one of the 2 remaining lanes on E. 22nd.  Now that CSU is done for the summer, I think you'll see serious progress in that area.

What is with the half-sewer cover?  It looks like they sawed it in half.  I go to CSU for grad school, and the Monday after finals they immediately closed one of the 2 remaining lanes on E. 22nd.  Now that CSU is done for the summer, I think you'll see serious progress in that area.

 

instead of relocating manholes where they conflicted with the new roadway alignment, they opted for public art/manhole curb cuts.  this was expected to save quite a bit of money, as there are more than 20 manholes along the entire route that are now in the middle of the curb.

ok...so when do we hold a flash mob in front of city hall,then the county commisoners building.then the rta building...then perhaps in front of peter lewis  penthouse...

What is a flash mob. And where is the Peter Lewis penthouse?

What is a flash mob. And where is the Peter Lewis penthouse?

 

I'm thinking a large group of people flashing en mass.

Flash mob typically applies to a "happening" of sorts and from my knowledge doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a protest or message.  It's just a group of people who arrange (usually via internet, mobile phone, texting) to meet at a public and conscpicuous place and do something (often surreal) that will gather attention, cause a scene, then disperse.

 

In terms of protest, it's basically any protest or demonstration that's organized primarily via the internet, text message, word of mouth, but I personally don't adhere much to that description, since lots of stuff can be organized via the interweb, there's no need for a special term for it.

how did peter lewis come into the Euclid corridor thread?

 

 

Hey, I came accross signage today on public sqaure about the ECP....!  (well one sign...but it was there!)

I studied urban and environmental planning in curitiba during the summer of 2006. 

 

The population of the metro area is 3M with a nearly even split between city and suburbs.  while the city's population has been steadily increasing for the past 50 years, the redline BRT has engendered a notable amount of high rise residential buildings.  ...

Do you think such an integration would work in a metropolitan area like Cleveland where the population has been flat vs. growing?  (for that matter, Cleveland is retrograde).

If Cleveland can retain residents that leave the region as well as steal some from outside it, it could obviously go a long way in repopulating the city and raise the demand for the sort of developments that go along with this type of mass transit infrastructure.

If Cleveland can retain residents that leave the region as well as steal some from outside it,

 

And it has proven it can do that. The metro Cleveland population in the 1990's actually grew, when the economy was better. Now that the economy is slumping demographic trends are as well. We have to get the economy going strong before we'll see major gains in population.

Two Stories

 

News Net 5:

 

I go here often for lunch, but admit I have not been around recently becasue of the construction... and I work two blocks away.

I will go this afternoon though.

 

Cafe Owner Fed Up With Construction Arrested

 

POSTED: 5:35 pm EDT May 24, 2007

UPDATED: 11:17 am EDT May 25, 2007

 

..........

 

 

 

 

PD:

 

RTA offers chance to buy naming rights for Euclid Corridor

Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

 

 

.............

 

That's pretty jacked up about the Cafe Ah-Roma owner getting jailed. I have to admit, it appears that a few more brain cycles could've been spent on a better overall plan for pedestrian traffic flow up and down Euclid.

Well, the article spurred me on to go get lunch at Cafe Ah-Roma today. Business was brisk.

free advertising!

 

Now we just need urbanohio to get some free press coverage.

Checked out the RTA website today and it reveals that the proposed traffic circles at E. 89th and E. 100th are not working and RTA wants to go back to the original intersection design.  The Clinic appears to still want the circles and is attempting to work out the problems.  This has apparently caused a project delay as the contractor was suppose to start work in this area in May and is still on hold.  This looks like it could get messy.

I am getting so fed up with this project's construction. I really like the idea of BRT and I am not an ECP hater by any means, but this is ridiculous. There is just no real reason that it is progressing so slowly.

FYI,

 

more of the decorative elements are in place on the SE corner of public square (south stretch of euclid).

Checked out the RTA website today and it reveals that the proposed traffic circles at E. 89th and E. 100th are not working and RTA wants to go back to the original intersection design.  The Clinic appears to still want the circles and is attempting to work out the problems.  This has apparently caused a project delay as the contractor was suppose to start work in this area in May and is still on hold.  This looks like it could get messy.

 

what do you mean by "they aren't working"? RTA thinks the design isn't functional? Didn't they agree upon this earlier? Any link to the specific page that you are referring to?

Checked out the RTA website today and it reveals that the proposed traffic circles at E. 89th and E. 100th are not working and RTA wants to go back to the original intersection design.  The Clinic appears to still want the circles and is attempting to work out the problems.  This has apparently caused a project delay as the contractor was suppose to start work in this area in May and is still on hold.  This looks like it could get messy.

 

what do you mean by "they aren't working"? RTA thinks the design isn't functional? Didn't they agree upon this earlier? Any link to the specific page that you are referring to?

 

The presentation given to the Board is here: http://www.riderta.com/pdf/presentations/2007-06-05-ECTP.pdf

 

and the statement made on page 55 says "Proposed traffic circles at East 89th and East 100th Streets are not meeting the project, operational and safety requirements".

 

While I was not at the meeting, what that implies to me is that the engineering of the design is insufficient for the projected traffic flow and/or vehicle design. It may be too tight of a radius, there could be other clearance or visibility issues, or it could be something else completely.

 

As far as agreement, the delays in this segment have been the Clinic's doing, and RTA has allowed them to play for now. As is mentioned on page 57, "GCRTA has recommended that the Clinic replace the proposed traffic circles with the previously designed intersections and complete the design. The Clinic is continuing with more attempts to make the circles work". I'm fairly certain any delays will be minimized - George Dixon can be very persuasive if he feels he's being jerked around.

 

Oh, and LovesIt, there is no ONE real reason -- there are a MULTITUDE of real reasons why this project is progressing so slowly. Suffice to say, Murphy has fired up the popcorn popper and settled back in his easy chair for this one. He's enjoying the show...

who is Murphy?

Jetdog,

 

Thanks for the insight.

The guys from Murphy's Law?

 

I never really buy that excuse with projects on this scale. There should be a comprehensive risk identification and mitigation process in place. Can anyone shed some light on some of the multitude of reasons for slow progress? I'm not terribly frustrated with the construction yet, but I'm getting there.

^i dunno, i suppose until you literally dig down into the water mains and sewer repairs, its hard to pre-quantify just how much work needs to be done?