I've said this before...I live in Pittsburgh, which has three buslines. They're all wildly popular. The Healthline will be fine. Believe!

 

I have no doubt it will get decent ridership, but BRT is not a long term solution.  Even the cities that use BRT in Brazil are upgrading to rail just cause it's not worth it in the long term.

 

South Pittsburgh, 1978 – The South Busway, projected to carry 35,000 weekday rider-trips, actually attracted only 20,000 rider-trips initially, and that level has now dropped to about 14,500, less than pre-busway ridership in the affected corridor. Meanwhile, a parallel LRT upgrade has attracted approximately fifty percent more passengers. [7]

 

· East Pittsburgh, 1983 - The East Busway was originally projected to attract 80,000 weekday rider-trips, but the actual service initially attracted only about 30,000. The system actually lost 25 percent of bus riders as the busways were further developed. [7]

 

· Pittsburgh, 1999-2000 – The West Busway, with a capital cost of approximately $55 million per mile, was originally projected to attract 50,000 weekday rider-trips. However, initial ridership of only 5,400 has grown modestly to about 9,500 (19% of original projections); in part, this may be temporary, as repairs to a parallel bridge in the corridor initially delayed motor vehicle traffic and have given a temporary ostensible advantage to the busway.

pitchblende, welcome to the forum. Your question has been stated and answered often before, especially on this thread. It's been a while though, so I don't mind answering it again...

 

The short answer is that the alternatives analysis found that while rail would cause a small ridership increase over bus rapid transit, the cost of building and operating rail didn't justify pursuing the small increase in ridership. RTA wanted to get Federal Transit Administration funding, but they wouldn't get it if rail was the chosen mode when there is a much cheaper option that produced alomst as much ridership. Even if with the raw ridership and cost data, RTA had a tough time making the case to the FTA for funding without the economic development component of the Euclid Corridor. That's what got them a federal funding share for this project.

 

Wasn't really a question, but more of a statement :).  Ridership projections are never accurate and even that should account for a transit method.  There are so many other things that could be calculated such as development around the area, increase in population in the future, the number of people that stop using their car and so on and so forth.

 

What ever level of ridership a rail system would have had would also help contribute to the long term growth of the city.  Like I've said before BRT is not a long term solution and even the pioneers of BRT are giving into Rail cause it has a lot more benefits.

You don't have to convince of the merits of rail. ;) Let me acquaint you with one of my employers...

 

www.allaboardohio.com

You don't have to convince of the merits of rail. ;) Let me acquaint you with one of my employers...

 

www.allaboardohio.com

 

You hiring?  That would be like a dream job :)  Although, I'm concerned that they consider 110mph as high speed rail, they should be introduced to the TGV in your picture :)  Although, I guess it's best for the country to take baby steps, we can't develop infrastructure too quickly like those in Germany, Japan, and China, that'd be too close to socialism.

Ok this conversation seems to be veering off track (pardon the reference), they went with BRT, it's being built.. maybe some day it'll be converted to rail, but for now, be happy with what is coming.

OK... does anyone know who is in charge of maintaining the treelawns along the corridor?  I've been noticing this for a while.  Some of these tree lawns are well maintained.  But there are many of them along Euclid, where the grass is say a tad long.  By that I mean it's over a foot tall and flowering.  Literally.  I think this project could look fantastic but basic things like make sure the grass is cut needs to be done.  Seriously, does anyone know who is responsible for this?

OK... does anyone know who is in charge of maintaining the treelawns along the corridor?  I've been noticing this for a while.  Some of these tree lawns are well maintained.  But there are many of them along Euclid, where the grass is say a tad long.  By that I mean it's over a foot tall and flowering.  Literally.  I think this project could look fantastic but basic things like make sure the grass is cut needs to be done.  Seriously, does anyone know who is responsible for this?

 

I'll put the ask in... are there any specific locations that come to mind? I'm asking because in my travels around the lower portion out to a ways past CSU, I didn't recollect any such issues.

Mainly in midtown, there are several of them. And it's odd.  You'll go past 2 or 3 with foot tall grass, and then go past 2 or 3 that are freshly cut. Then 2 or 3 more with foot tall grass.  It's very random.

I've noticed the same thing.

Can someone post pictures of Euclid presently (if they happen to be driving along it).  I'd really like to see what it looks in its various locations but don't have the time to drive along it (been pushing 100 hour work weeks lately, bleh).  I'm interested in seeing which parts are done, in the middle of construction, yadda yadda.

 

Thanks.

Can someone post pictures of Euclid presently (if they happen to be driving along it).  I'd really like to see what it looks in its various locations but don't have the time to drive along it (been pushing 100 hour work weeks lately, bleh).  I'm interested in seeing which parts are done, in the middle of construction, yadda yadda.

 

Thanks.

 

I know a lot has probably changed in the last couple of weeks, but take a look here: http://www.riderta.com/pdf/presentations/2008-05-13-ECTP.pdf. Fifty-seven pages of photos and progress reports for your viewing pleasure.

thanks!

OK... does anyone know who is in charge of maintaining the treelawns along the corridor?  I've been noticing this for a while.  Some of these tree lawns are well maintained.  But there are many of them along Euclid, where the grass is say a tad long.  By that I mean it's over a foot tall and flowering.  Literally.  I think this project could look fantastic but basic things like make sure the grass is cut needs to be done.  Seriously, does anyone know who is responsible for this?

 

As I had thought would be the case, individual property owners are responsible for the treelawns in front of their properties (this is true throughout the city of Cleveland, for both commercial and residential properties). This means that RTA is responsible for the treelawns at CRT (Paratransit), 6611 Euclid, and the lot at the southeast corner of East 55th. We also maintain responsibility for the planter beds at the tail ends of the station platforms. The trees in the center medians in Midtown, however, are the responsibility of the City of Cleveland.

 

Having taken a trip out that way during lunch today, the biggest problems appeared to be along the south side of Euclid, west of East 55th. I'll see about getting a friendly reminder issued to some of those property owners that they need to make sure that the grass is keep at a decent height. For some of them, this may be a new experience, as they may not have had a treelawn prior to the project (the patch of grass at the Shell station at the southwest corner of Euclid & E 55th is, I believe, completely new).

 

Edited to add: After discussing this with the folks more privy to the agreements that were made, when the original inter-agency agreement was signed, the City of Cleveland assumed responsibility for the treelawns. Mayor Jackson's administration issued an ordinance that made such maintenance the responsibility of the property owners. Unfortunately, this was not effectively communicated to the property owners. Midtown Cleveland is working to get the word out to the property owners as to what their responsibility is for treelawn upkeep.

 

You are correct, a little basic upkeep will go a long way toward keeping the area looking attractive. A well-manicured empty lot is more appealing to a potential buyer than an overgrown empty lot.

Thanks for checking that out and informing us of your findings, JeTDoG!

OK... does anyone know who is in charge of maintaining the treelawns along the corridor?  I've been noticing this for a while.  Some of these tree lawns are well maintained.  But there are many of them along Euclid, where the grass is say a tad long.  By that I mean it's over a foot tall and flowering.  Literally.  I think this project could look fantastic but basic things like make sure the grass is cut needs to be done.  Seriously, does anyone know who is responsible for this?

 

As I had thought would be the case, individual property owners are responsible for the treelawns in front of their properties (this is true throughout the city of Cleveland, for both commercial and residential properties). This means that RTA is responsible for the treelawns at CRT (Paratransit), 6611 Euclid, and the lot at the southeast corner of East 55th. We also maintain responsibility for the planter beds at the tail ends of the station platforms. The trees in the center medians in Midtown, however, are the responsibility of the City of Cleveland.

 

Having taken a trip out that way during lunch today, the biggest problems appeared to be along the south side of Euclid, west of East 55th. I'll see about getting a friendly reminder issued to some of those property owners that they need to make sure that the grass is keep at a decent height. For some of them, this may be a new experience, as they may not have had a treelawn prior to the project (the patch of grass at the Shell station at the southwest corner of Euclid & E 55th is, I believe, completely new).

 

Edited to add: After discussing this with the folks more privy to the agreements that were made, when the original inter-agency agreement was signed, the City of Cleveland assumed responsibility for the treelawns. Mayor Jackson's administration issued an ordinance that made such maintenance the responsibility of the property owners. Unfortunately, this was not effectively communicated to the property owners. Midtown Cleveland is working to get the word out to the property owners as to what their responsibility is for treelawn upkeep.

 

You are correct, a little basic upkeep will go a long way toward keeping the area looking attractive. A well-manicured empty lot is more appealing to a potential buyer than an overgrown empty lot.

 

I'm not going to lie it terrifies me a little bit that we are relying on so many different people to do this as opposed to a singularly responible agency.  Hopefully there will be some good enforcement measures in place.

 

On another note... I was in Boston yesterday for work and had my first experience with BRT.  I took the silverline BRT from the airport into downtown.  A few thoughts:

 

1.  Our BRT vehicles (or whatever we're calling them these days) blow theirs out of the water.  They just look nicer.  Other than the accordian things, theirs much more appear to just be "busses".  They also don't have elevated curbs at stations that allow for just walk in, so you have to step up or down. 

2.  Much like when our BRT is in UC area, there is a portion that has no dedicated bus lanes where it essentially is "just a bus". 

3.  here's where theirs differs from ours.  When they reach the "silver line way" stop.  Their BRT vehicles actually hook on to overhead cables and become completely electric. The BRT then goes underground.  It's exactly like riding a subway.  Exactly.

4.  I like that ours is above ground actually, it's kind of boreing to be riding through a concrete tunnel, I'd have like to have seen boston which is a beautiful city.

 

Essentially, I loved it.  Like I've said before, though I know we all would have preferred rail, this thing functions exactly like rail, which is all I really care about.  After yesterday's experience I really can't wait for our BRT to be up and running... Also their all day pass is $9  :-o (I Love Cleveland pricing).

 

EDIT:  One last note.  I was a little disapointed in the initial "design" of the ECP.  I didn't like all the "futuristic" lights / trash cans / stations... But I was so excited about the overall project that it didn't bother me too much.  Now I'm disapointed again.  On top of boston's big dig, all the new lights, trash cans, etc. are very traditional, and have looks that will stand the test of time.  Ours might look really dated in just a few years, and the trash cans are already oxidizing. I mean are we not the city with the first electric streetlamp, and was it not beautifully traditional?  :-(  Sometimes we turn our back on tradition a little too much in this city.

for your viewing pleasure, 66 pages of (mostly) photographic goodness available here: http://www.riderta.com/pdf/presentations/2008-06-03-ECTP.pdf

 

there's a particularly striking aerial shot of the new Cleveland Clinic "entrance boulevard" on page 30

I have another tree lawn question... why are there a handful of treelawns along the corridor (mostly around CSU) that are filled with some sort of gravel or silt?  I keep assuming they are going to lay down the sod... but it never seems to change.

for your viewing pleasure, 66 pages of (mostly) photographic goodness available here: http://www.riderta.com/pdf/presentations/2008-06-03-ECTP.pdf

 

there's a particularly striking aerial shot of the new Cleveland Clinic "entrance boulevard" on page 30

 

By the way, JD, thank for posting the links to these presentations when they come out- I love the photo updates.

Thanks for the pic's.  I see they are doing the sidewalks east of E 107th.  What is the fate of the Euclid Ave pavement there?  Is it going to be resurfaced as it has been west of E107th?

Bus Rapid Transit - Deficiencies and Defects

By Paul Weyrich

 

Having written recent commentaries favoring streetcars and light rail and objecting to the Bush Administration's push for so-called Bus Rapid Transit, I have received email asking just what is wrong with Bus Rapid Transit anyway, especially since conservative and libertarian think tanks such as the Reason Foundation and the CATO Institute are all for it. My correspondents are correct. I owe my readers an explanation as to why I am against Bus Rapid Transit.

 

.....

 

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/PaulWeyrich/2008/06/10/bus_rapid_transit_-_deficiencies_and_defects

A 15 year amortization schedule might as well be 50 years.  At least if it were approached from a business perspective.

 

Weyrich's superficial analysis is misleading.  At once, the Republicans argue that the level of pollution from power plants is OK, then they state that "modern" power plants are clean.  Do the Republicans want stringent emissions requirements or don't they? 

Modern electric plants produce little pollution.

"There is no example anywhere of Bus Rapid Transit's attracting development."

 

Wow, that is a pretty bold statement to make...after reading this, I didn't really place too much stock in what the rest of the article had to say.

That column lost me at the rather convoluted third paragraph, where after previously advocating for streetcars and light rail at the expense of BRT, it then states that "Bus Rapid Transit is more like light rail. Much of it has its own private right away." (BTW, it's right-OF-way) It further draws the unfounded conclusion, "Streetcars are not designed for speed yet the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) justifies funding bus rapid transit because it is faster. That alone shows FTA prejudice." But the prior sentence said that BRT is more like rail, so where does the streetcar comparison come in?

 

Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee this morning, or maybe he was just the victim of an overzealous editor, but  ??? ?

It's not just you, JeTDoG, the article needs revision.

 

 

I've read many of Paul Weyrich's articles and reports before, and this is not his best work.

 

But the visual I get in my head from reading the third paragraph is that he's portraying streetcars as this vehicle that weaves its way through densely developed intimate and tree-shaded neighborhoods where people and bicycles can wander around the streetcar's right of way. The image he gave me of a busway is that of a freeway for buses, that is a harsh environment of concrete and roaring buses. He's probably picturing the busways in Pittsburgh or Ottawa. Of course, he can only confirm if my visualization of his wording is what he intended.

 

And there are examples of busways promoting development. Those same cities, Pittsburgh and Ottawa have seen housing built around bus stations. In Ottawa, entire villages of high-rise housing and ground-level retailers cluster around bus stations, especially west of downtown where the busway is in an open cut that was bored through solid rock.

KJP, my mom lives in Ottawa and I go there often.  The area you mention, parallel to Scott St, where the Transitway is cut into a trench (there you can see that Ottawa is not "bedrockly challenged" like Cleveland) is an old railroad right of way  The government buildings and apartments there and along the Ottawa River Parkway, mostly predate the Transitway, so I am not sure I would call them TOD.  One of my favorite spots on the Transitway is where it dives under a platform adjoining the St Laurent mall on the east side.  It is like a real "subway" station, except that it is buses and not rail.  The station connects directly to the mall's lower level.  Above it is what we might call a transit station where many bus lines come together for transfers.  Ottawa makes great use of its traditional indoor malls as transit hubs.  In my years of going there, I have made much use of OCTranspo, the bus system.  It really works and can effectively get you places.  They have many articulated buses on the mainlines and use a POP fare system.  If you were there, you might have enjoyed what they call The O-Train which travels against the grain of the bus system in another old railroad trench.  This abandoned track actually goes over the Ottawa River into Gatineau and goes by the Casino, maybe a transit project for another day.  The "suburban" development in Ottawa is somewhat denser than in Cleveland's suburbs, which helps retain transit's effectiveness.  Perhaps we could call it "Sprawl Lite".  They do have a green belt around the city which cannot be developed but, as you might expect, development has jumped over it and has continued in places like Kanata, eh?

 

Oh, I bet I better mention Euclid Corridor, lol, since that is the current topic. 

 

You were discussing an experience with busways, and I'd say that's relevant to the topic.

 

Yes, I've ridden the O-Train. I thought it was terrific and very comfortable. I'd love to see that expanded there, and applied here. I took some pictures but I haven't scanned them. If anyone is interested in seeing what this service is like, check out:

 

http://www.octranspo.com/train_menue.htm

 

I think this type of equipment, especially if offered in a dual electric or diesel/hybrid configuration, has some potential applications here in Cleveland.

On my jog yesterday, I noticed most of the questionable treelawns were mowed (between the innerbelt and E 36th)

I have another tree lawn question... why are there a handful of treelawns along the corridor (mostly around CSU) that are filled with some sort of gravel or silt? I keep assuming they are going to lay down the sod... but it never seems to change.

 

Any word on this?... These areas just look kinda out of place

I have another tree lawn question... why are there a handful of treelawns along the corridor (mostly around CSU) that are filled with some sort of gravel or silt?  I keep assuming they are going to lay down the sod... but it never seems to change.

 

Any word on this?... These areas just look kinda out of place

 

Also noticed on my jog. I feels like one of those composite ground rubber sports tracks, or the newer not-wood-chips play ground areas. Seems/feels permanent to the feet.

I hope they finish East 9th soon.  That intersection has been too torn up for too long.  Being a pedestrian at that intersection is dangerous!

With an October opening date, it should be soon...

Just an update of construction near Public Square:

 

Thanks for the pic. Are those granite curbs on the left?

Thanks for the pic. Are those granite curbs on the left?

 

Those would look great in my backyard.  err...I mean, yeah are those granite?

They are, and from what I can tell they may be leftovers.  The only area yet to get curbs is directly in front of vivo.

They are, and from what I can tell they may be leftovers.  The only area yet to get curbs is directly in front of vivo.

 

hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  :wink2:  :wink2:

If you see MTS there with a flatbed and a hoist, call the cops!

Bah, call the cops on him regardless! ;-)

If you see MTS there with a flatbed and a hoist, call the cops!

Bah, call the cops on him regardless! ;-)

 

HUSH!  I was just going to tell my cousin to drive his truck down there and pick them up!

Drove down Euclid again today.  Noticed the edge of the platform already crumbling at the East 30th westbound station.  It almost looked like perhaps the busses are hitting it as they pull right up to the stop.

Here is part  of an update given by the RTA General Manager yesterday at the Citizens Advisory Board:

 

RTA is on schedule to have all paving on Lower Euclid Avenue done by July 4, and the project done in time for the Oct. 25 grand opening. Some international visitors will be here in July to view the project.

 

That's cool that International Visitors will be coming.  however, I don't think anyone can appreciate it as much as a Clevelander who has endured the years of construction it has taken along with the past state of what Euclid was in the 90's and early 2000's.  Pot hole filled road with no signs of something better to come other than talk.  I am excited to finally have a beautiful blvd with great transportation!

Jam40Jeff was worrying a few pages back about his July 5th wedding at the Union Club and his guests staying at the Wyndham. I'm sure he's got to feel a little better.

Drove down Euclid again today. Noticed the edge of the platform already crumbling at the East 30th westbound station. It almost looked like perhaps the busses are hitting it as they pull right up to the stop.

 

pictures?

I remember last year thinking that the north half of Euclid Avenue might be complete in time for my wedding at the Arcade.  No such luck!

 

I've noticed some of the premature wear & tear on some of our new transit corridor.  I hope the RTA has some warranties on the work that we've all paid for and that they plan on doing a full, detailed survey of the completed work once the thing is done (and frequently thereafter) to make sure that everything is up to snuff.  This thing is going to see a LOT of rider volume and while the fixtures are certainly high end for our system, they need to be more than just that.

 

Another issue I have is the duration (and number of delays) of the work being done through University Circle.  I'm amazed at how long this "second tier" part of the route has taken to complete, especially given the much lighter load of work that is being performed.  Plus, it's really the only through route in the Circle.  I understand the urgency of completing the Lower Euclid, but the impact on traffic flow in the Circle has been far greater than Downtown, where drivers have a half-dozen other east-west avenues to choose from.  And now that the surface is finally being laid, I find out that it's asphalt.  Wow...  Crossings have been added in some places (which is great), but they've been taken out at others (Adelbert) where some of the highest pedestrian numbers in the County can be found.  Sidewalk seating has been rendered illegal by the placement of landscape planters in places and what can I say about those lovely signal/electric boxes that are all over the corridor...

One of my friends and I were laughing yesterday when crossing Euclid at Adelbert about how Case spent a bunch of money our freshman year of college on the brick pavers at the crosswalks there, and the city has been ripping them up piece by piece ever since.  I too was surprised to see asphalt there and not concrete....  *Sigh*  I'll just be happy when it's finished...

And now that the surface is finally being laid, I find out that it's asphalt.  Wow...  Crossings have been added in some places (which is great), but they've been taken out at others (Adelbert) where some of the highest pedestrian numbers in the County can be found.  Sidewalk seating has been rendered illegal by the placement of landscape planters in places and what can I say about those lovely signal/electric boxes that are all over the corridor...

 

Any chance some kind soul wants to do a photo thread of some of the ECP negatives (wear and tear, construction flaws, design flaws, conspicuous mechanicals, etc.)?

Drove down Euclid again today. Noticed the edge of the platform already crumbling at the East 30th westbound station. It almost looked like perhaps the busses are hitting it as they pull right up to the stop.

 

Speaking of straps post, I (though not taking photos) checked this station out when heading down Euclid yesterday.  This is not wear and tear... It indeed looks like it got side swiped.  The metal edge that is installed to provide an end point and contain the bricks on the station platform at this particular platform got gaffled.  As a result it is ripped up (thus sharp metal edges everywhere) and has oxidized to the point of flat out rust everywhere.  I'd love to know what the plan is when something like this happens.  Wear and tear is one thing, what happens when things need replaced?

Drove down Euclid again today. Noticed the edge of the platform already crumbling at the East 30th westbound station. It almost looked like perhaps the busses are hitting it as they pull right up to the stop.

 

Speaking of straps post, I (though not taking photos) checked this station out when heading down Euclid yesterday. This is not wear and tear... It indeed looks like it got side swiped. The metal edge that is installed to provide an end point and contain the bricks on the station platform at this particular platform got gaffled. As a result it is ripped up (thus sharp metal edges everywhere) and has oxidized to the point of flat out rust everywhere. I'd love to know what the plan is when something like this happens. Wear and tear is one thing, what happens when things need replaced?

 

Well, I am sure that RTA's engineering and facilities department will take a look at things like this frequently.  Or, they will be notified of this stuff.  Remember, RTA has several facilities.  It is not like the ECP is the first bit of infrastructure RTA has had to maintain.  There are people employed to do this.  Also, at the end of the projenct, the contractors Punch List will have to be copmpleted with RTA.  I am sure that items such as this will be left as Punch List items and will be taken care of at that point.  Trust me, if you walked around the Avenue District Tower today, I am sure there are alot of nicks and scrapes and dents that will need to be fixed at the end.  It is common prior to the punch list being completed.