The fare boxes at most stops are not up and running...

 

Thanks!  Ok if the fare boxes aren't working, that's definitely a problem.  I am surprised they are still not working considering when the ribbon cutting was.  Maybe it's like the Up escalator in tower city and the parts are only available by special order that takes 4 months.

im sure that this has been stated before with the timing issue, and im not knocking the healthline at all by saying this because i think to this point it has been great, but something has to be done about the signal/light at 9th and euclid. Almost every rtv i am on or see while walking has the green(?) to proceed through the intersection heading west upon approaching the station. But after stopping for loading and unloading the light is already changing to stop, making the rtv wait somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes for the next cycle (i have not timed it but it is a long wait). I know there is a problem at 6th but that has more to do with the construction going on at 668, but the 9th and euclid dosnt have any surrounding construction or other reasons why this timing is so off. Is anything being done to possibly shorten the length of the green light for 9th street, or anything else that could give the rtv a quicker right of way??

E 9th is such a critical N-S route for downtown I wouldn't be surprised if the current situation is about the best it can get.  There probably isn't much more E-W time to squeeze out of that light.

JMasek, I appreciate your continual responses in this thread.  If you look on the previous page, you will see that I have actually given the HealthLine a very positive review based on my the two rides I took during my recent trip to Cleveland.  However, I am not drawing illogical conclusions.  I sat on the brt and merely reported what I observed.  My comment about the Cleveland police was in response to MTS' remark that implied they are the ones working to take care of this, so maybe you go back and read my review instead of focusing on that one line.  From what I have seen, it seems very easy to get on and off the HealthLine without paying.  That's not an illogical conclusion on a brt that is not fully functional.  It is an observation that has been offered to you by someone who sat and watched more than a dozen people get on and off without paying.  Overall, I believe that the system is running fairly smooth and is something to be proud of, but I do think that this is a potential problem. 

From what I have seen, it seems very easy to get on and off the HealthLine without paying.

 

It is, if you are willing to risk a $75 ticket.  As X pointed out, the threat of enforcement will help ensure payment, rather than actually having to check every rider.

From what I have seen, it seems very easy to get on and off the HealthLine without paying.

 

It is, if you are willing to risk a $75 ticket. As X pointed out, the threat of enforcement will help ensure payment, rather than actually having to check every rider.

 

Yes, to beat this horse even deader, it's also really easy to lie on your income tax return, sell cocaine or shoplift from a suburban supermarket, but we depend on the threat of getting caught and punished and human psychology to police these behaviors.  It's not a bad question to ask, given how different it is from the "old way", but it's really not such a strange set-up.

From what I have seen, it seems very easy to get on and off the HealthLine without paying.

 

It is, if you are willing to risk a $75 ticket. As X pointed out, the threat of enforcement will help ensure payment, rather than actually having to check every rider.

 

Yes, to beat this horse even deader, it's also really easy to lie on your income tax return, sell cocaine or shoplift from a suburban supermarket, but we depend on the threat of getting caught and punished and human psychology to police these behaviors. It's not a bad question to ask, given how different it is from the "old way", but it's really not such a strange set-up.

 

Precisely. This was discussed at length in the planning process for the HealthLine, and there are numerous examples of proof-of-payment systems that have been put in place in other areas of the US and worldwide. One of them exists just up I-90 in Buffalo, NY, my former hometown.

 

The key to proof-of-payment's success is enforcement. A system without enforcement is destined to fail, while one with effective random enforcement can succeed as readily as one with full enforcement or traditional fare collection methods. There's quite a bit of information on proof-of-payment systems design available from the TRB at http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_rpt_80.pdf.

HealthLine update: one good and one bad.

 

Bad - slow trip this morning.  Public Square to Adelbert station in University Circle was 28 minutes.  And when we were at the Stokes station & looked in front of us & behind us.  A vehicle at Cornell, Adelbert, Stokes (us), and 105.  Four back to back...

 

Good - transit police got on around East 30th, asked for proof of payment.  One of the customers didn't, started to fuss, and was quickly taken off the vehicle at East 40th, I presume for a ticket and further action.  Everyone got the message there. 

great news about the officers checking for payment. I dont think this will really be an issue as more and more people see them enforcing it.

no doubt syncing the lights and timing the system in real world use is going to some tinkering around with for awhile. still, those issues about busses bunching up are something for daily riders to keep an eye on. there is nothing more frustrating, especially with fewer busses now.

 

 

^Well, there may be fewer buses, but the headways are shorter which is one reason why you might see more bunching now than with the 6.  There is really very little you can do to eliminate bunching all together- just ask the MTA which can't even stop some of its subway lines from seriously bunching up on a regular basis.

Went with a friend to the V.A. in Wade Park; hopped on the Healthline at Cornell at 8:58am. Arrived at East 6th at 9:16am. Love it!

I would guess drivers have pointed out the same thing, but there is a problem on Public Square in front of the BP Building.  The left lane is a bus only lane, but it used to be a left turn lane and many cars are still using it for that, blocking the bus that has it's own special light to cross Superior.  During high traffic times, there is a car in that left lane almost every light and since the bus light is supposed to be on first, it often delays the bus one full light.

 

I've seen:

1. The bus lay on the horn until the car just ran the light, turning left, so the bus could go straight.

2.  The bus, if room, drive over to the right around the cars to go through the intersection.

3.  The bus just sit there and wait for the next light.

 

There is at least one sign that says Left Lane Bus Only, but no painting on the pavement.  Maybe they need overhead signs or better painting? (or a man with a badge ;))

 

 

^I've seen the same thing several times, but assumed that drivers would "get it" after a few months.

Put some of these in -- of course they probaly wouldn't survive the snow plows for long...

 

^There are some of these on the corridor already, I believe.  I think some read paint on the pavement could help a whole lot.

^I've seen the same thing several times, but assumed that drivers would "get it" after a few months.

Some Drivers will never "get" a Bus lane that goes straight to the left of a car lane that turns left.  Way too confusing.  :-P  :|  :-(

^I've seen the same thing several times, but assumed that drivers would "get it" after a few months.

Some Drivers will never "get" a Bus lane that goes straight to the left of a car lane that turns left. Way too confusing.   :-P :|   :-(

I'd assume a few tickets from RTAs finest would help them get it.

At that same intersection, I've seen a problem with cars making left turns to Superior, which gets backed up and blocks the straight-thru bus lane so the BRT vehicle can't get thru.  Maybe the timing of the light with the Superior/Ontario light could be improved.

I was told today by an RTA supervisor at one of the HealthLine stations that the government is penalizing RTA up to $12,000 per day until the ticket machines at the stations are used.  However, the supervisor did not seem to have first hand knowledge of this, indicating that he heard it from someone else at RTA.

Jerry/JeTDoG, any update on the HealthLine fare vending machines?

I was told today by an RTA supervisor at one of the HealthLine stations that the government is penalizing RTA up to $12,000 per day until the ticket machines at the stations are used.  However, the supervisor did not seem to have first hand knowledge of this, indicating that he heard it from someone else at RTA.

 

People should not spread hearsay, and that is EXACTLY what the supervisor is doing. There is NO truth to this. Period. Boom. End of story.

Any update on the HealthLine fare vending machines?

 

Virtually every new fare collection installed in recent years has been behind schedule, so in that regard, RTA is completely normal.

 

Some stations have vending machines that work, and the contractor and RTA are working daily to address issues outstanding issues. When the system is fully functional, all riders will be informed. Thanks for asking.

You are correct...I could have used better words than "The system is not fully up and running."

 

The vehicles are certainly operating 24/7, and riders are gaining the benefits of state-of-the-art service. Some of the related items, such as the proof-of-payment fare collection system, and not yet fully operational.

I was told today by an RTA supervisor at one of the HealthLine stations that the government is penalizing RTA up to $12,000 per day until the ticket machines at the stations are used. However, the supervisor did not seem to have first hand knowledge of this, indicating that he heard it from someone else at RTA.

 

People should not spread hearsay, and that is EXACTLY what the supervisor is doing. There is NO truth to this. Period. Boom. End of story.

 

Thank you for the quick response, it is appreciated.

What's the status on the concrete testing? It was supposed to take a couple weeks iirc.

T

What's the status on the concrete testing? It was supposed to take a couple weeks iirc.

 

RTA has not yet received the results of the tests.

Ooookay, after a few times of using the Healthline, I'm mostly very happy with the end results. Like with anything else, there's a few things that need tweaked - some minor, some not-so-minor.

 

Minor - this utility cover; a little bit of a tripping hazard (and obviously, cigarette butt collector). Location: north side of Euclid, in front of National City Center:

 

Not-so-minor - yeah, the shelters. A simple test using a mild garden hose would have proven that these are woefully inadequate for protection against the rain. I'm no architect, but ya'd think *someone* might be aware that when rain falls (especially on a windy day in Cleveland), it rarely falls at a perfectly perpendicular angle to the ground.

 

Note the gaps - I can easily stick my hand through them, while wearing thick winter gloves. And they're all over the station...

 

Including the tops of the panels as well as at the bottom by the seating areas... 

 

:?

 

 

Ooookay, after a few times of using the Healthline, I'm mostly very happy with the end results. Like with anything else, there's a few things that need tweaked - some minor, some not-so-minor.

 

Minor - this utility cover; a little bit of a tripping hazard (and obviously, cigarette butt collector). Location: north side of Euclid, in front of National City Center:

 

Not-so-minor - yeah, the shelters. A simple test using a mild garden hose would have proven that these are woefully inadequate for protection against the rain. I'm no architect, but ya'd think *someone* might be aware that when rain falls (especially on a windy day in Cleveland), it rarely falls at a perfectly perpendicular angle to the ground.

 

Note the gaps - I can easily stick my hand through them, while wearing thick winter gloves. And they're all over the station...

 

Including the tops of the panels as well as at the bottom by the seating areas... 

 

:?

 

 

 

The utility cover issue, which appears to be an obvious flaw, has been communicated to the project engineer. I can't necessarily speak to the appropriateness of the station enclosure design, which is more debatable and open to opinion.

awwwgh those gaps!!

 

those are exactly the same as in the new ny bus stops. sooo gawdawful. ive been soaked to the bone waiting on busses in them -- everyone complains about'em. i'd love to hear the designers explain themselves about why they built them like that. actually, i'd like to smak'em upside the head!

^Rain is one thing, but swirling wind on a cold day downtown is just ridiculous in these things. Whoever came up with and/or approved of these either doesn't have to use them, or is a dumb@$$. I don't know if they think that the gaps are aesthetically appealing, or if they think we're somewhere in the south that needs ventilation to keep cool, but please stop removing old bus stops around downtown and replacing them with these things. I and a good portion of my fellow riders would rather stand in a rusty old shelter with graffiti that at least blocks the wind. I'm guessing its too late to do anything about the design of these shelters, considering they're already up, but I'm curious if the public ever got a chance to comment on the design so that I know if I should be mumbling swear words through my chattering teeth at my fellow riders for not telling RTA that gaps in the shelters prevent them from sheltering us or if I should be mumbling swear words while I shiver at RTA for not giving us the opportunity to tell them that I get better shelter from the wind by standing next to the tree behind the shelter than I do from the shelter that is designed to shelter me?

There has to be a logical explanation for the gaps.  I'll check back for that later.

I don't think the utility of an enclosure that fails to enclose is debatable or open to opinion.  Red isn't blue and up isn't down.  Are citizens allowed to duct-tape these things, or would that be considered defacing them?  If you have to use one regularly it may be worth it.

I'm certainly no engineer, but the only explanation that makes sense is that the old-style shelters actually capture and trap the wind so that it forcibly whips through the people in the shelter, like a giant metal scoop, and if you provided an "exit" for the wind, it might blow through but not have as much force?

I'm certainly no engineer, but the only explanation that makes sense is that the old-style shelters actually capture and trap the wind so that it forcibly whips through the people in the shelter, like a giant metal scoop, and if you provided an "exit" for the wind, it might blow through but not have as much force?

 

So they're crappy in the winter, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to sit in the shade in the summer and not have it be a sweltering 110 degrees in there since there will be a breeze?

Yeah, we have at least 5 of those sweltering days in Cleveland each year.  Why design a shelter more suitable for the 205 cold, wintery days we have each year.

Yeah, we have at least 5 of those sweltering days in Cleveland each year.  Why design a shelter more suitable for the 205 cold, wintery days we have each year.

  :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

And why couldn't they make it so that the gaps have a covering that slides back and forth?  Probably that's too expensive.

Yeah, we have at least 5 of those sweltering days in Cleveland each year. Why design a shelter more suitable for the 205 cold, wintery days we have each year.

 

It only has to be like 80 or 85 and sunny to get that hot in a bus shelter.  We have plenty of those days.  There are also those of us who prefer to be cold over sweating to death :-D

I think another word besides "shelter" should be used to describe them.  A shelter is suppose to grant cover or protection from the elements.  These "waiting platforms do not. 

 

Regarding the 80-85 degree days, if you simply step out of the shelter, you can capture the breeze you are talking about.  However, there is no avoiding this horrific wind that forces everyone waiting for the bus to break the kindergarten rule of self-space.  :fight:

 

Another question I have, and I do not think it has been adequately answered, is why the platforms from E.19-E.105 service only one direction?  It would have been much more cost efficient to have consolidated the platforms (would have needed half as many).

 

I have asked everyone this, from fellow bus riders, bus drivers, and RTA workers conducting surveys.

 

What was the rationale in doing it from Public Square to Playhouse Square, but not E.17 - E. 105?

I think it's so the bus can always stop after the light instead of before, no matter which direction it's going.  Easier to coordinate the signal timing for maximum speed that way. 

What was the rationale in doing it from Public Square to Playhouse Square, but not E.17 - E. 105?

I can;t answer the rest of your question, but from Public Square to Playhouse Square the road was too narrow for the dual platform setup, I believe.

I think it's so the bus can always stop after the light instead of before, no matter which direction it's going. Easier to coordinate the signal timing for maximum speed that way.

 

Maybe, but if that were the case, why not also do it between Pub Sq and E. 12?

 

Also, and this is assuming you have the answer, is the maximum speed worth the the cost of the additional platforms?

What was the rationale in doing it from Public Square to Playhouse Square, but not E.17 - E. 105?

I can;t answer the rest of your question, but from Public Square to Playhouse Square the road was too narrow for the dual platform setup, I believe.

 

That makes sense. 

 

 

Another question I have, and I do not think it has been adequately answered, is why the platforms from E.19-E.105 service only one direction? It would have been much more cost efficient to have consolidated the platforms (would have needed half as many).

 

Nah, it's been answered a few times.  You'll notice the stations that serve only one direction are always immediately "downstream" of a traffic light.  This makes the signal preemption system possible (theoretically), because the bus is moving and does not have to stop at a station until it is through the light.  Space constraints keep this format from being used in the downtown stretch.

Another question I have, and I do not think it has been adequately answered, is why the platforms from E.19-E.105 service only one direction? It would have been much more cost efficient to have consolidated the platforms (would have needed half as many).

 

Nah, it's been answered a few times. You'll notice the stations that serve only one direction are always immediately "downstream" of a traffic light. This makes the signal preemption system possible (theoretically), because the bus is moving and does not have to stop at a station until it is through the light. Space constraints keep this format from being used in the downtown stretch.

 

OK, so every platform between E. 19 & E. 105 is after a light?  Is that speculation or are you positive?

OK, so every platform between E. 19 & E. 105 is after a light? Is that speculation or are you positive?

 

It's not speculation...it is project design.

Had the greatest corridor ride of my life last night.  We literally sailed thru every light until we got to 105.  Granted, it was 11,45 at night, but it was a good indicator that when the timing improves, the trips will be even quicker (typing this under the assumption the traffic signals are still not fully functioning).