That's insulting.

 

$15 million. Give me a break.

 

saving $15 million is "insulting"? speaking as a fellow taxpayer, I do not think that word means what you think it means...

 

No, implying that the only way to make a shelter that actually gives shelter from the cold would cost an additional $15 million is insulting.

 

Sure, you may have had a choice with this design to close up the gaps, and, sure, that may have been quoted as $15 million higher. But to say creating a shelter that functioned in the winter would have cost an additional $15 million than the price you paid cannot be true.

 

And in a city where the lows are more dramatic than the highs, does it really make sense to cater to the high temperature days?

 

And why should we have to choose? Is there no city that already has a shelter model that doesn't fry riders in the summer and do nothing to protect from the cold in the winter?

 

Strangely enough, the sparse bus shelters closed on each end in Mobile, Alabama didn't create an oven, but also protected from the regular sideways-blowing rain storms that come off the Gulf mid-afternoon most days.

 

As a fellow taxpayer, I assume you would want your taxes spent on something that worked rather than something that doesn't. That's the ultimate waste in taxes.

Yeah, I don't mind the buses being packed with people so long as it's not due to poor scheduling i.e. one packed bus followed closely by 2 empty ones that came either too late or too early.

 

Yes, but that is not an "every day" or "all day" occurrence, correct?

 

From the postings and talking to a few people, they say they rarely have to wait more than 5/10 for a bus.  so if the bus is packed, that is good thing.

 

Consumer complaints should be looked at, you can only improve service by taking a look at the "real" complaints and public addressing them.

I would argue that buses packed in a much larger city is "normal" and means "transit is working."  In a city the size of Cleveland, I just believe that having to stand every time you ride means there aren't enough buses running. We don't have that many people, nor that many people taking public trans, to make that "transit is working" statement true.  Just my opinion of course, others can (and likely will) disagree.

Is any of this stuff really THAT big of a deal??

 

Some of it, no. However, as someone who has repeatedly stated that Cleveland needs to "up its design standards", I would think you could appreciate the fact that the design of the shelters results in a failure to provide shelter! ;-) As I've said, had anyone taken a simple garden hose to a prototype - they'd have seen that they fail to keep out rain, snow, wind... unless of course said rain and snow fall perfectly perpendicular to the street.

Some of it, no. However, as someone who has repeatedly stated that Cleveland needs to "up its design standards", I would think you could appreciate the fact that the design of the shelters results in a failure to provide shelter! ;-)

 

I can't win, can I?? I criticize something, I get lambasted for not living in Cleveland and speaking as an outsider, which is total bullsh!t because I've lived in Cleveland for the majority of my life. Now that I'm saying it's not that big of a deal, I get criticized for not criticizing! Siiiiiiigh.

 

I think I'm just aware of the budget constraints, and the fact that RTA's decision-making was impacted by that. But then again, why do budget constraints always have to be the scapegoat for design flaws? Why can't budget constraints actually challenge people to make something of excellence within the budgetary confines? Budget should never be an excuse for badly thought out design. That's laziness and scapegoating.

 

Maybe it's because RTA thought it did create something of excellence. Maybe it's because RTA did the best it could, given the circumstances. Maybe there should've been more detailed public comment and review. Maybe RTA didn't think it would be that big of a deal. I don't know. But if RTA can improve the things that people have criticized, it should. And if it doesn't, then that's laziness and blame-shifting. And there's absolutely no excuse for that.

 

As for further commenting on the line itself, I can't because I haven't yet been on the Health Line. I'm just commenting based on what other people have said.

I would argue that buses packed in a much larger city is "normal" and means "transit is working."  In a city the size of Cleveland, I just believe that having to stand every time you ride means there aren't enough buses running. We don't have that many people, nor that many people taking public trans, to make that "transit is working" statement true.  Just my opinion of course, others can (and likely will) disagree.

 

Manipulated Yogi Berra quote:  "Nobody uses the Healthline, it's too crowded."

rocknroller, your quote doesn't make sense.  It's all relative to the size of the city. 

If buses are half full that means that there are too many buses/trains, which is wasteful to taxpayers.  An acceptably crowded bus does have several people standing while riding.  If people are that lazy that they can't stand for 15 minutes, I'm not sure what to tell you.

RTA services 250,000 people a day, I think that's a pretty decent number.

^Thanks for the inflation, but the actual number is 200,000 average weekday ridership, more if there is bbbbad weather.

<<Maybe there should've been more detailed public comment and review. Maybe RTA didn't think it would be that big of a deal.>>

 

May I please set the record straight? We at RTA believe the Euclid Corridor Project was "a very big deal," and we felt honored to be of something this historic. As for "more detailed public comment and review," that would be hard to achieve. The project was talked about for so long, and there were so many public meetings and design reviews, it came close to not meeting some deadlines. After thousands of people comment on something, what value is there is asking for 100 more comments? After a while, all people are doing is repeating what someone else said. I have seen the same thing in public hearings that last a long time. After a while, people just stand up and say, "I agree with what John said," and then repeat everything that John said. It adds no new info. So, yes, we could have gotten more public feedback, but to do that, we would have had to go door-to-door. We already met -- and exceeded -- every federal guideline for public outreach.

 

RTA is rightfully proud of its public outreach effort.

RTA services 250,000 people a day, I think that's a pretty decent number.

 

Greater Cleveland (not including Akron) has the 18th busiest transit system in the country. Considering the Cleveland MSA (not including Akron) is the 25th most populous metro in the U.S., I'd say RTA's utility is pretty high.

 

http://www.oregonmetro.gov/index.cfm/go/by.web/id=26810

That's insulting.

 

$15 million. Give me a break.

 

saving $15 million is "insulting"? speaking as a fellow taxpayer, I do not think that word means what you think it means...

 

No, implying that the only way to make a shelter that actually gives shelter from the cold would cost an additional $15 million is insulting.

 

Sure, you may have had a choice with this design to close up the gaps, and, sure, that may have been quoted as $15 million higher. But to say creating a shelter that functioned in the winter would have cost an additional $15 million than the price you paid cannot be true.

 

And in a city where the lows are more dramatic than the highs, does it really make sense to cater to the high temperature days?

 

And why should we have to choose? Is there no city that already has a shelter model that doesn't fry riders in the summer and do nothing to protect from the cold in the winter?

 

Strangely enough, the sparse bus shelters closed on each end in Mobile, Alabama didn't create an oven, but also protected from the regular sideways-blowing rain storms that come off the Gulf mid-afternoon most days.

 

As a fellow taxpayer, I assume you would want your taxes spent on something that worked rather than something that doesn't. That's the ultimate waste in taxes.

 

Precisely.  What is insulting is the fact they spent millions on these "non-shelters," when that money should have been spent on actual shelters.

 

Is any of this stuff really THAT big of a deal??

No, most of it isn't. But if RTA wants to defend poor design when it comes to the shelters, I think we have a right to call them out on it. And I think this is poor design.

 

Grumpy, welcome to the world of working mass transit as it is in other cities.

 

I haven't personally experienced the line, but reading that buses are full to me seems like a good thing.

The busses being full is a good thing, and a hand full of people standing on the busiest portions of the route is expected and acceptable. I know I'm arguing semantics but I had an issue with the phrasing of "for us, at RTA, if something's too crowded, it means it's working.". If the word "too" wasn't there I'd have understood his meaning as "RTA wants full busses", with that word I understand his meaning as "RTA wants to pack you all in like cattle". I consider an overfull bus inefficient as it takes so much longer for people to sqeeze past each other trying to get on and off.

 

I like having to stand.  To me, it means a city is doing well.

I don't mind standing some days, and never mind standing during rush hour. But if its 2pm on Veteran's Day there shouldn't be a reason that I should be able to count 25 riders standing on the Healthline. I only had to wait about 2 minutes so I don't know if it was timing or what, but either the timing was off or that bus isn't big enough.

 

Thanks folks - I really wanted to take time out my day to get the thread back on-topic. No, really. :roll:

 

Any discussions about alleged drug dealing and reporting crimes and guilty bystanders DON'T need to continue in this thread.

 

Regarding the $15 million savings remark...RTA was under constant pressure from federal guidelines to keep the total project cost below a certain amount, or else the project would not qualify for funding.

CLEVELAND – For a record sixth consecutive year, the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (RTA) saw a jump in its ridership numbers. Leading the way were ridership numbers on the HealthLine, which could only be described, as well…healthy. Ridership was up 46 percent over a year ago, when it was known as #6 bus.

http://www.riderta.com/nu_newsroom_releases.asp?listingid=1250

 

 

an insightful note on the future success of the Euclid Corridor from a local property owner.  Via Midtown Cleveland Inc.'s blog: http://www.midtowncleveland.org/blog/guestblogger_healthline.asp

 

Is the HealthLine really going to make a difference?

By Richard Pace, MidTown Developer

 

As a lifelong Clevelander, I have grown up to be skeptical about big project announcements. As an architect, I have planned too many great projects that never happened. Six years ago, I decided to leave the architectural practice to put my money were my mouth was and develop my own projects.

 

In 2002, Scott Garson of NAI Daus showed me the Carpenter Reserve Printing Building (now known as the Baker Electric Building.) It was a beautifully designed building, but it was in the middle of “nowhere,” at the intersection of Euclid Avenue and East 71st Street. After all of those decades of planning the “Dual Hub Corridor,” I was convinced that RTA’s Euclid Corridor would never happen so I bought a building in Independence instead.

 

 

I was looking for my next project in 2006 and Scott showed me the building again. It was still a great building but now the Euclid Corridor was under construction, the Cleveland Clinic was going through an incredible expansion and the time was right. I bought the building and I am renovating it and it is leasing even in this lousy economy!

 

My story is a case study of investment. Without the HealthLine, I was unwilling to risk my money on Euclid Avenue. With the HealthLine, not only have I risked my money, but a growing number of companies are choosing my building because of proximity to the Cleveland Clinic, University Circle and Downtown. The HealthLine dramatically improves access to these destinations. In early November 2008, I attended the Innovation Conference at the Cleveland Clinic and because of a hectic schedule, I rode the HealthLine back and forth a number of times from my building at Euclid Avenue and East 71st Street to the CCF Conference Center. On average, it took seven minutes door to door, which included wait time. It would have taken three times that amount of time to drive there, find a parking spot and then walk to the conference. Plus, I didn’t have to pay $6.00 each time.

 

My building is only a small part of the return on investment in the HealthLine. MidTown is updating its Master Plan for this area to create a vital mixed-use neighborhood which can become the largest and most attractive Research Park in the world. The area surrounding the HealthLine connects many internationally-renowned research institutes, such as the Cleveland Clinic, University Hospital, Case Western Reserve University and Cleveland State University, all within a 15 minute ride. By comparison, the famous Research Triangle in North Carolina is not connected to Duke, the University of North Carolina or North Carolina State. They are all separated by an hour drive. Also, the Triangle was planned in the last century as an automobile-oriented development. Ask any young researcher if that is the way that they want to live/work/play and you will find a strong preference for a vital mixed-use neighborhood instead.

 

We are not there quite yet, but I am confident we will be there soon.

 

[email protected]

Cool... but,

 

"MidTown is updating its Master Plan for this area to create a vital mixed-use neighborhood which can become the largest and most attractive Research Park in the world."

 

I have a picture in my mind of what a "vital mixed-use neighborhood" looks and functions like, while I have an entirely different picture of a "Research Park."  I'm having trouble merging them into one cohesive image.  I keep seeing a Pierre's ice cream fortress on every block, and most of the new bus stations being unused most of the time.  A "Research Park" is neither an origin nor a destination for most people, ever. 

It's heartening reading stories like that

Nice blog item. I wish more Clevelanders would read it.

By comparison, the famous Research Triangle in North Carolina is not connected to Duke, the University of North Carolina or North Carolina State. They are all separated by an hour drive. Also, the Triangle was planned in the last century as an automobile-oriented development. Ask any young researcher if that is the way that they want to live/work/play and you will find a strong preference for a vital mixed-use neighborhood instead.

 

Hopefully, that shows that he "gets" it.

Hey Jerry/JetDog -

What's the latest news with the fareboxes and signal prioritization?  Not that my ride wasn't quick this morning without those added conveniences, but as I was staring at the digital readout in the bus with the date on it, I started thinking "Man, this thing has been running for three months already!"

What's the latest news with the fareboxes and signal prioritization?

 

Signals are still being tweaked (that's a technical term) at some intersections. The farebox issue was recently covered well in a PD story that was posted here. Trust me. As soon as all systems are up and running, we will be spreading the news.

What's the latest news with the fareboxes and signal prioritization?

 

Signals are still being tweaked (that's a technical term) at some intersections. The farebox issue was recently covered well in a PD story that was posted here. Trust me. As soon as all systems are up and running, we will be spreading the news.

 

Thanks :).  We stopped only at maybe 3 lights, but a couple of times the driver had to slam on the brakes to stop at them cause she was cruising along at the time.

Seems like things are moving along pretty well. 

 

I still wonder what contract benefits are accruing to RTA from the software vendor, since I assume they were supposed to have the fare system working by opening day.  It is kind of disheartening to see Windows error messages on the screens in 2009.  A government agency I once worked for had standard "fees" set up to encourage a lack of failure by contractors.  RTA probably does too (?). 

Just to give you all a little insight into how things are progressing and what's being done, one of our contractors has arranged for some network downtime tomorrow (Friday) to perform some required maintenance. Hopefully, we'll see some more forward progress after that step is taken.

What's the latest word on the calcium chloride issue?  That story pretty much disappeared.

^ Re: concrete testing is continuing. As soon as everything is finalized, there will be a public statement.

I just wanted to say what a joy it was to take the HL with a driver by the name of "Calvin (I think that is his name; white guy, driving by CSU bookstore around 4,30;m on 1/27)."  He had a trivia question and enthusiastically announced the stops in a loud voice.  :clap:

Any testimonials on how the BRTs are handling the snow? 

^ I wasn't actually riding, but I saw one about 15 minutes ago at 9th and Euclid and it didn't seem to be having more trouble than any other bus. A little slipping, but it didn't bottom out on 4 inches of snow or anything silly like that.

Didn't feel any problems this morning.  Obviously it was driving a little slower than usual, but it only took me an extra 15 minutes to get to work including having to walk slower because I had to trudge through unshoveled sidewalks.

My ride from public square to east 40th took at most 5 minutes longer than normal.  I could feel a little slipping when pulling away from a station, but nothing major

Any testimonials on how the BRTs are handling the snow? 

 

the rear wheels spin quite a bit, but the drivers seem to be more used to it and acclerate cautiously from stations and lights.

 

i've talked with a few drivers during the past couple of snow events and the answer from them has been universal: the vehicles don't handle well in the snow.  (could be that they just have to get used to the new vehicles and the nuances)

 

from public square to UC took about 12 minutes longer than recent trips.  The BRT passed a BRT in front of us at one of the platforms by going into the car lane, doing a quick stop and letting people out on the (usually) wrong side of the bus, and accelerating in front of the other BRT who was still boarding people.  craziness.

Any testimonials on how the BRTs are handling the snow? 

 

the rear wheels spin quite a bit, but the drivers seem to be more used to it and acclerate cautiously from stations and lights.

 

i've talked with a few drivers during the past couple of snow events and the answer from them has been universal: the vehicles don't handle well in the snow.  (could be that they just have to get used to the new vehicles and the nuances)

 

from public square to UC took about 12 minutes longer than recent trips.  The BRT passed a BRT in front of us at one of the platforms by going into the car lane, doing a quick stop and letting people out on the (usually) wrong side of the bus, and accelerating in front of the other BRT who was still boarding people.  craziness.

 

Are drivers suppose to do that?  Jerry??

^^ How are the trains handling the snow?  .....ok, that was uncalled for :evil:

On my way home yesterday I had a driver that did NOT know how to properly drive in snow.  I don't think the vehicle mattered - he was slamming on the accelerator like it was sunny and 70 degrees, which of course, led to sliding and jerking of the bus.  I thought he was gonna kill someone - bus 2903 (white guy, maybe his name was Richard?), got on at Adelbert around 5:15pm.

So I drove to work yesterday cause I'm sick and was feeling like sh*t, and on my way home, I was driving down Chester and saw a healthline bus pseudo jack-knifed (not really, but the front half of the bus was at about a 30-45 degree angle to the back) on E. 59th St. (I think) at Chester.  Was it trying to go home to go to sleep for the night and got stuck in snow on the side road?  That's what appeared to have happened.

Does anyone else think the distance between the E.13 platform and the E.21 platform is way too long?  I suppose it was necessary for the initial directional division of the platforms.

Does anyone else think the distance between the E.13 platform and the E.21 platform is way too long? I suppose it was necessary for the initial directional division of the platforms.

 

You want dropped off right in front of the law school, I take it.  I love how they call E21 "E19."

Does anyone else think the distance between the E.13 platform and the E.21 platform is way too long? I suppose it was necessary for the initial directional division of the platforms.

 

no.  If anything I think we have a few too many stops.

^I agree.  There are 3 stops on PS, and stops at 6th, 9th, 13th.  That in itself is kind of ridiculous given that the Healthline is supposed to emulate a train.  They should not have put the stop on PS (E 3rd basically) moved the 6th stop to 4th and called it a day.  Of course they also should have put in rails and electrified the thing... but we don't always get what we want.

^I agree.  There are 3 stops on PS, and stops at 6th, 9th, 13th.  That in itself is kind of ridiculous given that the Healthline is supposed to emulate a train.  They should not have put the stop on PS (E 3rd basically) moved the 6th stop to 4th and called it a day.  Of course they also should have put in rails and electrified the thing... but we don't always get what we want.

 

They coulda, woulda, shoulda, but the voters didn't want that, now did they?

 

With all due respect to everyone, lets not start that crap again, it's not rail, get over it and move on, that discussion has been, brought up a million times.

 

In future I suggest becoming more active in RTA and alerting your state elected officials your wants for rail transportation.

 

In regard to the stops, I too wondered why there is an E 2nd stop?  I think having E 6 and East ninth is enought.  It's not like there is that much of a walk.

 

I wonder if they were emulating past street car stops?

 

Again, the system is what it is.

 

The bigger question is when the vending machines will be operational?

 

 

The bigger question is when the vending machines will be operational?

 

t-minus 3 days.  they are supposed to go live on Thursday Feb 12 before morning service, as long as RTA's weekend internal audit was successful.

 

expect red line machines to be operational within 6 weeks of healthline activation.

^Where did you hear that? That's great news! I think I'll go take a ride Thursday or Friday afternoon and see how fast it is now.

Does anyone else think the distance between the E.13 platform and the E.21 platform is way too long?  I suppose it was necessary for the initial directional division of the platforms.

 

You want dropped off right in front of the law school, I take it.  I love how they call E21 "E19."

 

I don't need right at the door step, in fact, that isn't even really the problem.  The problem always rears its head in the following situations:

 

1) class gets out late at night.  Do I:

 

a) run down to catch the EB BRT at E.13, even though it is about 5 blocks away, but in a somewhat safer area; or

 

b) wait at the desolate stop around E.21, which is still about a block away?

 

2) Arriving at TC via the rapid on a weekend, then sometimes beginning to walk from PS to E.18 hoping at BRT will come by.  The problem is when you are about to arrive at E.13. 

 

Do you actually be "that guy" who jumps on the bus just to go one stop?  Even though that one stop encompasses about 6 blocks, including another one because you have to double-back to the law school.  Or do you just buck up and walk the rest of the way?

 

This is the issue I have with the distance between E.13 & E.20 

Does anyone else think the distance between the E.13 platform and the E.21 platform is way too long? I suppose it was necessary for the initial directional division of the platforms.

 

You want dropped off right in front of the law school, I take it. I love how they call E21 "E19."

 

I don't need right at the door step, in fact, that isn't even really the problem. The problem always rears its head in the following situations:

 

1) class gets out late at night. Do I:

 

a) run down to catch the EB BRT at E.13, even though it is about 5 blocks away, but in a somewhat safer area; or

 

b) wait at the desolate stop around E.21, which is still about a block away?

 

2) Arriving at TC via the rapid on a weekend, then sometimes beginning to walk from PS to E.18 hoping at BRT will come by. The problem is when you are about to arrive at E.13.

 

Do you actually be "that guy" who jumps on the bus just to go one stop? Even though that one stop encompasses about 6 blocks, including another one because you have to double-back to the law school. Or do you just buck up and walk the rest of the way?

 

This is the issue I have with the distance between E.13 & E.20

 

im in the same position here, i have class both in the business building and law building. My bus drops me off at 9th and superior then i walk up 9th, usually if its a nice day ill just walk down euclid instead of waiting for the brt, but if its a cold one ill usually wait if i can see the brt in sight. Ill usually get off at the stop in front of rascal house then walk into the communication building and just take the inner link to either law or business building. I dont think its a problem though but it does add a few extra minutes to the commute, nothing for me to complain about since most of the time ill walk down euclid to csu.

The thing I like least about the setup is how you can no longer take the first available between the BRT or the trolley.  They use different (yet adjacent) stops now.  You are forced to commit without knowing which one is coming.  That said, I don't think any of it is that big a deal.  At least the health line runs regularly when night classes let out, which is more than I can say for the rest of the system. 

No, it is not a big deal at all. 

 

The thing I like least about the setup is how you can no longer take the first available between the BRT or the trolley.  You are forced to commit without knowing which one is coming.   

 

Oh contraire...Have you not played the fun game of waiting in between the BRT WB platform and the WB trolley?  The best is when can see the BRT down at like E.40, so you run to get on the BRT platform.  Then, just as you jump up to the platform, you see Ol' Green rounding the bend and speeding towards the E.18 stop.  You then jump back off the platform, dodge some cars, and spring back to the trolley stop.

Same thing happens when you're at Detroit and 25th needing to get across the bridge.  The next bus could come up 25th... or it could come up Detroit, and stop at a completely different place.  Every morning, I and several others do a little dance, running back and forth to make sure we don't miss one while waiting oh so specifically for the other.

Yeah, the drains of having a good bus system...

^Where did you hear that? That's great news! I think I'll go take a ride Thursday or Friday afternoon and see how fast it is now.

 

The info previously posted about a start date for the fare vending machines is inaccurate. A release will be sent as soon as a date is set, and my good friends at Urban Ohio will be told immediately. Let's not go chasing rumors. Thanks.