Maybe this belongs on the HL Thread..not sure.. But was wondering if anyone knows why those cool public art lightning bolt looking light displays on the HL at PHS have only one working? Is this temporary or are they broken? This is a part of the HL RTA Corridor, isn't it?

 

I'm actually friends with the artist.  Don't expect them to be fix anytime soon.  I'm not exactly sure what happened but it's bean expensive repairs, and he doesn't want to pay out of his own pocket...

 

Thats a shame. I also really liked them. Its kind of embarrassing to have them all out or partially out.

I'm fed up with RTA refusing to maintain the Health Line and trying to shift the responsibility to others.  This notion that individual property owners have to maintain the landscaping is absurd. 

 

Why not? You have to maintain the sidewalk in front of your house. And if you don't or can't, the city or other local government jurisdiction (in this case RTA) will assess you for the cost of them taking care of it instead. Same deal with the HealthLine.

 

I can't speak to the artist's situation. I haven't noticed any lights out, but then I'm usually out of my office before it gets dark.

 

EDIT: And yes, this belongs in the HealthLine thread.

I like those a lot, and it's unacceptable to leave them inoperative for an extended period.  It's also unacceptable that the artist would have to pay out of pocket.  Outdoor lighting needs regular maintenance and that shouldn't be blamed on the artist at this point. 

 

I'm fed up with RTA refusing to maintain the Health Line and trying to shift the responsibility to others.  This notion that individual property owners have to maintain the landscaping is absurd.  The whole idea was to help them, not to fling ongoing expenses at them.  That kind of behavior makes it more difficult to muster the support we need for future transit expansions. 

 

I'll ask this, when the artist went into a binding agreement with RTA/Cleveland, who is the responsible party for maintenance of said public art?  Do you know who is responsible?  If not, I don't know how you could come to that conclusion without know taking all the facts into consideration.

I saw it over thanksgiving break.. it looks especially bad since only one section lights up. I hope they can get this fixed up because thats an important gateway to the city. Its stuff like this that can give someone a bad impression of an incredible area.

Not all of us chickens know what "PHS" is.  Exactly where are the lights in question, please?

Playhouse Square

I saw it over thanksgiving break.. it looks especially bad since only one section lights up. I hope they can get this fixed up because thats an important gateway to the city. Its stuff like this that can give someone a bad impression of an incredible area.

 

Yeah, the last time I passed it at night only one was lit up. They shouldn't light it at all if it's broken and they can't get them all to work properly. It makes the city look cheap.

Is this what you're talking about?    If so, I'm also surprised that maintenance would be the responsibility of the artist.  As MTS mentioned there's clearly some contract that lays out the responsible party etc. but it does seem odd that RTA would install artwork like this but require the artist to cover the cost of maintenance.  They look very nice when they are lit up, and I do hope that they are fixed quickly.

I'm fed up with RTA refusing to maintain the Health Line and trying to shift the responsibility to others.  This notion that individual property owners have to maintain the landscaping is absurd. 

Why not? You have to maintain the sidewalk in front of your house. And if you don't or can't, the city or other local government jurisdiction (in this case RTA) will assess you for the cost of them taking care of it instead. Same deal with the HealthLine.

 

Then they should go ahead and do so... fix and assess.  But leaving things messed up for all to see should not be an option.  Regardless of how they've got it set up contractually, this is RTA's baby and ultimately it's RTA with egg on their face.  Setting up the contracts in a way that nothing gets done is hardly a victory.

I saw it over thanksgiving break.. it looks especially bad since only one section lights up. I hope they can get this fixed up because thats an important gateway to the city. Its stuff like this that can give someone a bad impression of an incredible area.

 

Yeah, the last time I passed it at night only one was lit up. They shouldn't light it at all if it's broken and they can't get them all to work properly. It makes the city look cheap.

 

This makes the city look cheap?  REALLY?

 

I'm fed up with RTA refusing to maintain the Health Line and trying to shift the responsibility to others.  This notion that individual property owners have to maintain the landscaping is absurd. 

Why not? You have to maintain the sidewalk in front of your house. And if you don't or can't, the city or other local government jurisdiction (in this case RTA) will assess you for the cost of them taking care of it instead. Same deal with the HealthLine.

 

Then they should go ahead and do so... fix and assess.  But leaving things messed up for all to see should not be an option.  Regardless of how they've got it set up contractually, this is RTA's baby and ultimately it's RTA with egg on their face.  Setting up the contracts in a way that nothing gets done is hardly a victory.

I agree there should be some sort of backup plan, but if contractually and financially RTA can't.  Seems like your placing all the blame on RTA without having all the information.

I saw it over thanksgiving break.. it looks especially bad since only one section lights up. I hope they can get this fixed up because thats an important gateway to the city. Its stuff like this that can give someone a bad impression of an incredible area.

 

Yeah, the last time I passed it at night only one was lit up. They shouldn't light it at all if it's broken and they can't get them all to work properly. It makes the city look cheap.

 

This makes the city look cheap?  REALLY?

 

YES, REALLY. It's putting poor maintenance/upkeep on display in area that's supposed to draw visitors.

Key piece of info:  This is RTA's project. 

 

If for whatever reason they couldn't provide for upkeep, they're at fault because they created the situation.  I don't see much point in splitting hairs and diffusing blame when one agency spearheaded the whole shebang.  And yes, the current level of upkeep does make our city look cheap.

Key piece of info:  This is RTA's project. 

 

If for whatever reason they couldn't provide for upkeep, they're at fault because they created the situation.  I don't see much point in splitting hairs and diffusing blame when one agency spearheaded the whole shebang.  And yes, the current level of upkeep does make our city look cheap.

 

Sorry that's passing the buck!  There are plenty of things we own, yet someone else manages.  Yes in principal, there should be some sort of contingency plan.  However, if this is a contractual issue preventing this from happening, we may not be privy to that.  I dont  understand why you seem to think everything should be a, b, c, 1, 2, 3 cut and dry.

I don't think "passing the buck" means what you think it means.  I'm stopping the buck.  You're suggesting the buck splits into 100 pennies with wings. 

If the artist won't pay for the repairs and RTA or the city don't see public art as the best use of funds right now that's fine, but I still say shut the whole thing off instead of leaving one piece lit and drawing attention to it..reminds me of a neon HOTEL sign with a broken T and L.

I saw it over thanksgiving break.. it looks especially bad since only one section lights up. I hope they can get this fixed up because thats an important gateway to the city. Its stuff like this that can give someone a bad impression of an incredible area.

 

Yeah, the last time I passed it at night only one was lit up. They shouldn't light it at all if it's broken and they can't get them all to work properly. It makes the city look cheap.

 

This makes the city look cheap?  REALLY?

 

YES, REALLY. It's putting poor maintenance/upkeep on display in area that's supposed to draw visitors.

 

 

A completely agree.  I know it seems like a small thing that would be heavily overshadowed by the great things in PHS, however just a few weeks ago I had a friend in town and was showing him the city.  I was obviously trying to show it off.  When we got to PHS the first thing he noticed was that the jumbo screen on the Hyatt had a frozen "Windows" screen with a desktop and mouse image.  Clearly a software glitch, but it became a joke of his and whether or not he was surrounded by world class entertainment that's what stuck.

 

We don't get to decide what is important or not to guests, and details matter.  So RTA should either flip the switch to off, or recognize that putting public art in their transit infrastructure exposes them to potential malfunctions that look badly on RTA and the city as a whole.  If the contract says the artist needs to pay to fix it that's fine -- but in the mean time (or when they, what, throw the guy in jail for breech of contract?) PHS has this minor but obvious flaw -- and that affects Cleveland as a whole.

 

 

HOTL Baltimore to you!

At the same station the computer which always had on display Euclid Corridor info. is never on. Can it be turrned on or is it malfunctioning? Are other ones at the stations working? Are they all "turned off" indefinitely? I know this one is NEVER one when I wait there. Frankly, I never expected this sort of "frill" amenity to be functioning on a longterm basis....

Then they should go ahead and do so... fix and assess.  But leaving things messed up for all to see should not be an option.  Regardless of how they've got it set up contractually, this is RTA's baby and ultimately it's RTA with egg on their face.  Setting up the contracts in a way that nothing gets done is hardly a victory.

 

You of all people should know there's always at least two responsible parties in a contract. If the contract says RTA should maintain the art, then it's RTA's responsibility. If it says in the contract that the artist should pay for upkeep, then that's life. No one forced the artist to sign the contract. If the contractual responsibility is on the artist, then how is RTA at fault here? If people can't handle the responsibility, then they shouldn't take on responsibility.

 

I can't picture where this artwork is. I hate to say it, but I never even noticed this artwork before -- day or night.

It's a pretty noticeable piece.  Nothing great and not that creative, but appropriate to the site and does look pretty good a night.  Working, that is.  Playhouse Square could definitely use streetscaping to make it stand out, as it was given the same paviang, lighting as the rest of the stretch toward Public Square, unfortunately.

KJP the funny thing about contracts is that they're rarely negotiated from equal positions.  In this case, RTA was running the show.  And in a contract between RTA and a vendor, which side represents the community's interests?  Not the vendor.  The point is to get the job done and here it's not getting done.  It makes no sense to hold an artist responsible for indefinite maintenance.  Artists don't have the deepest of pockets, and their creations tend to outlive them.  If a tile falls out of a mural at the 117th station, does the original artist have to come and glue it back in?  That just doesn't seem like an effective way to manage the situation.

^Holding an artist responsible for indefinite maintenance makes no sense, but holding them responsible for the artwork failing to work properly in the first couple years seems reasonable. I think we'd all be bothered if RTA bought some artwork that fell apart the week after it was installed and then was left responsible for fixing some poorly made work. Without actual knowledge of the situation, we're all speculating.

It worked perfectly for quite a while when first installed.  What's this about a week?  In that hypothetical, sure, go after the vendor.  But that's not the situation here.  And it still seems silly to be so hardcore toward this sculptor when many of the trees were DOA and the fare machines have never been right. 

It worked perfectly for quite a while when first installed.  What's this about a week?  In that hypothetical, sure, go after the vendor.  But that's not the situation here.  And it still seems silly to be so hardcore toward this sculptor when many of the trees were DOA and the fare machines have never been right. 

 

SCULPTOR?  As I said earlier, without knowing ALL THE DETAILS, how can you make assumptions?  You don't know what the legal ramifications are.

 

Lets out it this way, you work and have a supervisor and manager, Director, VP, COO & President.  There are procedures and policies in place that (seem on the outside that they) are stupid or antiquated.  Something happens at your job that you feel, instead of going A, B, C with checks and balances, you feel you can go A to D to correct the situation.  However, the policies are legally binding and if change is needed upper management and legal affairs must meet with the other party/ies to agree to amend the contract.  Without that proper executive and legal approvals, you can't change the scope of contract without it being voided and your company being held liable and financially. 

 

This may be one of those situations, as we dont know all the information.

 

Jerry can you comment???

I walk by/stop at the 14th station every night going from CSU to Tower City to get the green line, those lights have been slowly degrading all semester.  Earlier it was just a few lights out and then the top of one only.  In the meantime, I doubt RTA maintenance folk even know it's out if the drivers haven't told them and we, the public, haven't told them... Has anyone called up RTA and reported it before coming on UO to complain cleveland.com style?

I walk by/stop at the 14th station every night going from CSU to Tower City to get the green line, those lights have been slowly degrading all semester.  Earlier it was just a few lights out and then the top of one only.  In the meantime, I doubt RTA maintenance folk even know it's out if the drivers haven't told them and we, the public, haven't told them... Has anyone called up RTA and reported it before coming on UO to complain cleveland.com style?

 

I agree with you statement, but RTA should have a line manager for the HealthLine and someone within RTA should be responsible for checking for Art installations, shelters, POP machines, etc.

 

Jerry can you comment on how the line is maintained and how problems are reported and corrected?  Thanks.

I passed by the art installation this morning and it actually looked like there were a few guys out working on the wiring.

All new timetables for the Jan. 8 winter service change are now avaiable at www.riderta.com/schedules. The changes include the HealthLine.

Regarding the public art, I am trying to contact the people in-house who can address this issue. In my opinion, there are several inaccuracies listed in this conversation, but I am not going to wade into it until I have all the info.

Detroit looking to Cleveland for BRT example:

 

Cleveland sets example with successful bus line

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20111215/BUSINESS06/112150517/Cleveland-sets-example-with-successful-bus-line

 

 

Light rail backers to battle on

 

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111215/METRO/112150423/-1/mobile/Light-rail-backers-battle-on

 

More Rustbelt love...this time from Buffalo:

 

Returning Cars to Main Street and the Cleveland BRT

http://www.buffalorising.com/2011/12/returning-cars-to-main-street-and-the-cleveland-brt.html

always nice reading articles like that.

In a Failure of Municipal Ambition, Plans for Detroit Light Rail Shut Down as Focus Shifts to BRT

 

In early 2010, the U.S. DOT announced that it would award a $25 million TIGER grant to Detroit to begin construction on a new light rail line along that city’s central spine. For two years, hope spread through America’s most notorious shrinking city: This project, perhaps, would provide the boost to resurrect the Motor City.

 

Last week, just as the latest TIGER grants were being unveiled for other cities, local leaders announced they would reneg on that promise due to a fear that operations costs would be impossible to cover. A less aesthetically pleasing — but far more extensive and regionally funded — BRT program would be inserted in its place...

 

Meanwhile, Mayor Bing, unfortunately, continues to use fantastical rhetoric when it comes to promoting the BRT system: “With Detroit’s rich history of innovation,” he wrote in the Free Press, “There is no doubt we can build a system that competes with other successful BRT lines in Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Los Angeles.” Yet the development of the BRT plan should have little to do with competition; its primarily purpose must be to serve the transit-dependent population of the city. Will it get the chance to do so, or relegated to the dustbin like most other transit plans for Detroit?

 

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011/12/18/in-a-failure-of-municipal-ambition-plans-for-detroit-light-rail-shut-down-as-focus-shifts-to-brt/

  I just got the new 32 schedule for 3/18/12 and it represents exactly what I had feare (and inquired about) last December.  According to the posted schedule, everyone forced to change between the 32 and the HealthLine – and this means a good percentage of the people commuting between downtown and Cleveland Hts., University Hts., etc. will have to change at E. 89th St. – not even by the E. 93rd parking garage, as I had suggested.  Where will the large group - that currently waits inside the heated University Rapid Station the many, many days of bad weather a year we experience here – wait in the evening rush hour for the 32 buses that are still scheduled in over-30-minute intervals???  Again, this involves everyone who, for whatever reason, takes the bus – the elderly, the frail, etc.

 

Where is there to wait at Euclid and E. 89th?  Any heated area?  Even a bench?  Is some sort of heated shelter at least in the works?  Also, an elaborate investment is being budgeted in rebuilding the University Rapid Station;  are all these riders who are now forced to transfer not going to be able to take advantage of the new station once built?  That would certainly remove a good share of its usefulness.

:-(

Okay - I looked more carefully at the proposed route 32 schedule and see the bus is actually said to make connections with the HealthLine at both E. 89th and E. 93rd.  So - where at E. 93rd?  I have suggested some sort of arrangement be made with the Clinic for individuals to be able to wait inside the parking garage entrance....

Looks now like some accomodation has been made in considering this Clinic parking garage heated entrance area. Whatever can be done would be most appreciated, with the various rider options.  :clap:

Looks now like some accomodation has been made in considering this Clinic parking garage heated entrance area. Whatever can be done would be most appreciated, with the various rider options.  :clap:

 

Where are you getting your information?  This looks to be a pain for me as I live 5 min to the University Rapid Station and may just opt to walk to Euclid when the weather isn't horrible.  Still it adds 10 minutes to my commute.

Information from website and then phone conversation with RTA administrator. There should be at least one PD araticle and sun Press also.  I could just picture dozens and dozens of riders around the week of 3/18/12 on not having a clue what's going on. And then all those who will get on the 32 from MLK toward 89th and be a bit perturbed when the line ends at E. 89th when they had expected to get right downtown....

 

mdaltoria - You can still get on at the Rapid Station on 3/18 on. But millions will be spent on the new Univ. Rapid station and it all these commuters between the Hts. and downtown can't wait there - what a waste!....

Information from website and then phone conversation with RTA administrator. There should be at least one PD araticle and sun Press also.  I could just picture dozens and dozens of riders around the week of 3/18/12 on not having a clue what's going on. And then all those who will get on the 32 from MLK toward 89th and be a bit perturbed when the line ends at E. 89th when they had expected to get right downtown....

 

mdaltoria - You can still get on at the Rapid Station on 3/18 on. But millions will be spent on the new Univ. Rapid station and it all these commuters between the Hts. and downtown can't wait there - what a waste!....

 

Thanks for the info.  I agree there is going to be some confusion but there has been confusion since the Healthline got two routes.  My experience on the Healthline has been that 95% of the trips on the eastbound University Rapid Healthline buses have resulted in at least one commuter being confused at the turn onto Stearns road.  RTA has been unable to communicate to the "#6" riders about that change and is probably choosing to make the East Cleveland riders happy with this newest change.

An array of confusion....

"University Rapid Station" vs. "Cedar Rapid Station"....

"People wanting to get off in the heart of University Circle" so they get on "Univ." HealthLine which only goes up Stearns....

"Stokes" Rapid Station vs. "Windemere" Rapid Station....

"Stokes Boulevard" stop announced and passengers thinking they're at "Stokes Rapid Station"....

      etc., I'm sure...

An array of confusion....

"University Rapid Station" vs. "Cedar Rapid Station"....

"People wanting to get off in the heart of University Circle" so they get on "Univ." HealthLine which only goes up Stearns....

"Stokes" Rapid Station vs. "Windemere" Rapid Station....

"Stokes Boulevard" stop announced and passengers thinking they're at "Stokes Rapid Station"....

      etc., I'm sure...

 

We are striving for consistency, but old habits, especially names customers have known for years, will live on for a long time in their memory.

 

I urge everyone (including posters here) to use proper names.

 

"University Circle Rapid Station" is now correct.

 

"Winderemere" is not a rapid station, but a neighborhood in East Cleveland named after a lake in England that found favor with a former East Cleveland Mayor.

 

"The Louis Stokes Station at Windermere" may seem like a mouthful, so some shorten it to "Stokes-Windermere." I do not.

 

"West Park" Rapid Station is correct, despite RTA's many signs to the contrary. Many merchants in that area opt for one word, "Westpark" and in doing so, they ignore history and geography.

 

People will call things what they will. For the small part of the world that I control, I will be as clear and accurate as possible.

^In fairness, I think it's asking a lot of people to refer to a station by a name as long as "The Louis Stokes Station at Windermere," and I don't think other agencies do so very often.  I actually think naming station after anything except major geographic features or trip generators is a terrible idea.  The names mean nothing to casual riders and just open the door to confusion, as in the "Stokes" case.  Not a huge deal, but that's foreseeable confusion completely of RTA's making.

 

I also wonder if RTA will regret the "University Circle Station" name when the new Mayfield station opens.

^In fairness, I think it's asking a lot of people to refer to a station by a name as long as "The Louis Stokes Station at Windermere," and I don't think other agencies do so very often.  I actually think naming station after anything except major geographic features or trip generators is a terrible idea.  The names mean nothing to casual riders and just open the door to confusion, as in the "Stokes" case.  Not a huge deal, but that's foreseeable confusion completely of RTA's making.

 

I also wonder if RTA will regret the "University Circle Station" name when the new Mayfield station opens.

 

The University Circle Rapid Station is right next to the Case Engineering quad and the original circle which I think designates it as much a part of University Circle as the Mayfield Station.  I'm sure people will figure it out, but University Circle Cedar and University Circle Mayfield would have been my choices.

 

I am going to miss the Healthline trips from the Rapid Station.  I thought it made a lot of sense, but maybe it would not work as well with the  new station that is hopefully going to be started on soon.

 

There is a bit of road construction around the station and Stearns  which has rerouted the Healthline and other buses a tiny bit.  Anyone know anything about that?  I'm guessing the bike trail since a lot of earth was also moved in Ambler park?

Actually, the University Rapid Station is not "next to" the old University Circle. The actual traffic circle was between the Fine Arts Lagoon and the current Children's Museum.

Also, speaking of people keeping in their heads the longterm old names - "Windemere" was the official name of the farthest-east Rapid station until the station was rebuilt.

 

As for the "University Circle Cedar" and Universtiy Circle Mayfield": a preferable but similar entitling might be "Cedar-University Circle" and "Mayfield-University Circle." People's mouths don't want to go past three syllables.

C'mon people, get over it. There's bigger issues in this world you could be worrying about!

Many times with the naming of a place that might be true, but in this case I feel it becomes significant when people are frustrated when they get on the wrong HealthLine, are uncertain what stop to get on or off, and what station is ultimately most associated with University Circle could have a real impact concerning development. 

And yes, if people like me who commute regularly between the Cedar Road part of Cleveland Heights/University Heights and downtown will not be transferring at the Univ. Rapid Station, there is much less reason for the huge expense the station construction and maintenance will incur.  Better scinario, of course, would be for the very nice station and our being able to take advantage of it daily.

Best of all, of course, bring back one-vehicle travel between the Hts. and downtown  Please. It's far from a luxury - just standard urban transit planning.

Is there going to be a PD article regarding all the route changes this coming Sunday? I can just imagine how many will be on the westward 32, for example, when it keeps going past the Univ. Rapid station and wonder what the heck is going on?  First thought to some, if they don't hear otherwise, is that the 32s are once more going all the way downtown....  What paradise that would be.  Then in evening rush hour, how many are going to stay on the HealthLine past E. 89th or E. 93rd and expect to get to the Univ. Rapid Station?

How many are going to be going west and get on the 32 or 7 between MLK and E. 89th and expect to keep going downtown?

                                    etc. etc. :wtf:

Is there going to be a PD article regarding all the route changes this coming Sunday? I can just imagine how many will be on the westward 32, for example, when it keeps going past the Univ. Rapid station and wonder what the heck is going on?  First thought to some, if they don't hear otherwise, is that the 32s are once more going all the way downtown....  What paradise that would be.  Then in evening rush hour, how many are going to stay on the HealthLine past E. 89th or E. 93rd and expect to get to the Univ. Rapid Station?

How many are going to be going west and get on the 32 or 7 between MLK and E. 89th and expect to keep going downtown?

                                    etc. etc. :wtf:

 

Have you contacted RTA or sent Jerry a note?

Yes, about the problems with today's changes for many of us. As for publicizing the changes, it's so obvious it isn't worth a note.  If anyone should be notified it's the local media.

 

News about service changes is:

* Posted on RTA's Web site.

* Sent to all local media, with several reminders.

* Posted on-board trains and buses.

* Posted on Facebook and Twitter

* Published in Rider's Digest

* Published usually twice in e-news

* Mayor of the affected are usually notified

 

Of ocurse, we cannot control what gets used in the media. Many news Web sites for TV and radio take our releases and use them verbatim.

 

None of these respond to my question. There should have been a decent article in the Plain Dealer, and any other paper, such as the Sun Press, where many riders are impacted (e.g., in this case, all those traveling regularly between the main Hts. areas and downtown Cleveland. I'm not talking just that there will changes that day and what routes are affected; I'm referring to an article that takes some thought in summarizing how the changes would affect riders from 3/18 on. Even better if some reasons for the changes are given. "Improved service" is a bunch of hooey to many of us - totally worthless.

 

Maybe you guys can't control how the media will handle your media releases but it would seem someone there could have tried to influence someone at the PD, for example, in the importance of getting this information out to the general public. There are many out there who don't do Facebook, for example, let alone your Facebook.  It certainly was NOT emphasized in any way on my buses.