None of these respond to my question. There should have been a decent article in the Plain Dealer, and any other paper, such as the Sun Press, where many riders are impacted (e.g., in this case, all those traveling regularly between the main Hts. areas and downtown Cleveland. I'm not talking just that there will changes that day and what routs are affected; I'm referring to an article that takes some thought in summarizing how the changes would affect riders from 3/18 on. Even better if some reasons for the changes are given. "Improved service" is a bunch of hooey to many of us - totally worthless.

 

Maybe you guys can't control how the media will handle your media releases but it would seem someone there could have tried to influence someone at the PD, for example, in the importance of getting this information out to the general public. There are many out there who don't do Facebook, for example, let alone your Facebook.  It certainly was NOT emphasized in any way on my buses.

Perhaps you should direct your criticism at someone at the Plain Dealer or Sun. If RTA sends them a press release and they don't care, I don't think there's anything else RTA can do.

Some driver announcements would probably be the best way to really flag this upcoming change, but yeah, I don't understand why RTA is responsible for the PD's overall indifference to transit issues.

None of these respond to my question. There should have been a decent article in the Plain Dealer, and any other paper, such as the Sun Press, where many riders are impacted (e.g., in this case, all those traveling regularly between the main Hts. areas and downtown Cleveland. I'm not talking just that there will changes that day and what routs are affected; I'm referring to an article that takes some thought in summarizing how the changes would affect riders from 3/18 on. Even better if some reasons for the changes are given. "Improved service" is a bunch of hooey to many of us - totally worthless.

 

Maybe you guys can't control how the media will handle your media releases but it would seem someone there could have tried to influence someone at the PD, for example, in the importance of getting this information out to the general public. There are many out there who don't do Facebook, for example, let alone your Facebook.  It certainly was NOT emphasized in any way on my buses.

Perhaps you should direct your criticism at someone at the Plain Dealer or Sun. If RTA sends them a press release and they don't care, I don't think there's anything else RTA can do.

 

AMEN!

I saw three healthline busses going westbound downtown today, one right behind the next. First bus was packed, second had a few people, and the third bus had like 2 people. Why does this always happen?

I saw three healthline busses going westbound downtown today, one right behind the next. First bus was packed, second had a few people, and the third bus had like 2 people. Why does this always happen?

 

The first bus kept on taking on more people at each stop and therefore it was slowed down as people filed in at each station. The other buses caught up because they didn't have to spend much time boarding passengers. 

I saw three healthline busses going westbound downtown today, one right behind the next. First bus was packed, second had a few people, and the third bus had like 2 people. Why does this always happen?

 

The first bus kept on taking on more people at each stop and therefore it was slowed down as people filed in at each station. The other buses caught up because they didn't have to spend much time boarding passengers. 

 

The trailing buses should get the OK to pass the first crowded bus. Then again, savvy transit riders know they should not get on the crowded bus because a much less crowded bus is soon to follow.

But this happens far too often. It creates delays and it can get annoying when you 3 buses going one direction before any come your way.

But this happens far too often. It creates delays and it can get annoying when you 3 buses going one direction before any come your way.

 

to me it says there are far too many riders riding the line and they need to adjust spacing. or put in a "exit only" sign on the forward most bus.

But this happens far too often. It creates delays and it can get annoying when you 3 buses going one direction before any come your way.

 

to me it says there are far too many riders riding the line and they need to adjust spacing. or put in a "exit only" sign on the forward most bus.

 

It's not a unique phenomenon... - http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/03/how-keep-buses-bunching/1457/

 

(edited to clarify):

Last Wednesday around 9a, I was on my bicycle, heading eastbound, on Euclid. A healthline bus was parallel to me, also heading eastbound on Euclid. I reached University Circle before the bus did (I looked back by East. blvd and couldn't see it anymore...) :(  (In fairness, I ran a red light a two, after making a complete stop, just east of e.55th where the lights aren't synced very well. ). 

 

A week or 2 ago, I was on 30th, heading eastbound and there was a bus next to me. I ended up reaching UC before the bus did.... :(

 

Could you explain to me what this means? You lost me.

At one time there was discussion (speculation?) that the Healthline buses would be outfitted with transponders to "trip" the traffic lights and thus improve travel times.  Was that ever in the official plan?  If so, was it implemented?  And if not, why not?  Does anyone know whether this has been done in any other cities?

 

Just curious.  The thought came out of the recent discussion about buses backing up on Euclid and problems with signal timing.

^Yes, it was part of the plan and was implemented, at least to some extent, when the line first opened.  I believe RTA was never satisfied with how well the system worked, and maybe more significantly, I think the City of Cleveland traffic commissioner eventually pulled the plug because of the effects on traffic flow.  We definitely discussed it in this thread at a few points, so you might find some details with some creative searching.  Kind of a bummer, because the HealthLine has never lived up to the promised average speed between Public Square and University Circle, even with the early change in policy that lets vehicles skip empty stations.

Fired off a couple of photos yesterday morning after I got off the HealthLine at Playhouse Square to meet an old friend at Starbucks....

 

EDIT -- those lighting elements do not have lighting fixtures below their midrift.

 

 

 

Nice.

Off topic, but is that a new mural on the Hanna building (below the video board) with the kids' faces, or new video boards??

Cool.

Murals. There's no motion to them.

^Yes, it was part of the plan and was implemented, at least to some extent, when the line first opened.  I believe RTA was never satisfied with how well the system worked, and maybe more significantly, I think the City of Cleveland traffic commissioner eventually pulled the plug because of the effects on traffic flow.  We definitely discussed it in this thread at a few points, so you might find some details with some creative searching.  Kind of a bummer, because the HealthLine has never lived up to the promised average speed between Public Square and University Circle, even with the early change in policy that lets vehicles skip empty stations.

 

I've heard that the speeds have been somewhat disappointing.  I haven't ridden (from Pub. Sq) to beyond CSU, so I don't have firsthand evidence of speed to, say, Univ. Circle.  The buses to CSU I've ridden have been quick enough, significantly quicker than the old #6 bus the HL replaced.  Certainly the transponders would have helped (hell, we've been waiting for them for the Blue & Green Lines for decades out in Shaker Hts!).  But one can't argue with Health Line ridership which has been a huge success.  If anything, any slowing of buses may be due to crowding more than other factors.  Even when I haven't ridden at night, I've seen standing room HL buses well into the evening.

^Yes, it was part of the plan and was implemented, at least to some extent, when the line first opened.  I believe RTA was never satisfied with how well the system worked, and maybe more significantly, I think the City of Cleveland traffic commissioner eventually pulled the plug because of the effects on traffic flow.  We definitely discussed it in this thread at a few points, so you might find some details with some creative searching.  Kind of a bummer, because the HealthLine has never lived up to the promised average speed between Public Square and University Circle, even with the early change in policy that lets vehicles skip empty stations.

 

I've heard that the speeds have been somewhat disappointing.  I haven't ridden (from Pub. Sq) to beyond CSU, so I don't have firsthand evidence of speed to, say, Univ. Circle.  The buses to CSU I've ridden have been quick enough, significantly quicker than the old #6 bus the HL replaced.  Certainly the transponders would have helped (hell, we've been waiting for them for the Blue & Green Lines for decades out in Shaker Hts!).  But one can't argue with Health Line ridership which has been a huge success.  If anything, any slowing of buses may be due to crowding more than other factors.  Even when I haven't ridden at night, I've seen standing room HL buses well into the evening.

AMEN!  Not to mention the visual and audio schedules at each station.  But I digress.

The Healthline gets another shout out from our neighbors in Detroit again today:

 

Rep. Gary Peters: If Cleveland can do mass transit, why can't Detroit?

Published: Tuesday, April 24, 2012, 3:58 PM    Updated: Tuesday, April 24, 2012, 4:06 PM

  By Ashley C. Woods | [email protected]

 

Congressman Gary Peters (D-MI) advocated for more regional cooperation on mass transit at the Detroit Business Conference this afternoon at Motor City Casino. And he used the city of Cleveland's new transit system as an example for what he thinks Detroit can -- and should -- achieve.

 

"This is not theoretical. You see it in cities across America," Peters said. "In fact, the most recent one with the bus rapid system, which is where we're looking to go, is the bus rapid transit system in Cleveland ..."

 

Talk about throwing down a challenge.

 

Rep. Peters was referring to a seven-mile stretch of the BRT (bus rapid transit) called the Health Line. The route connects Euclid Ave. and downtown to the Cleveland Clinic and hospital sector of the city, through areas of Cleveland which are economically challenged. The Euclid Ave. area has seen widespread economic development since the BRT opened in 2008.

 

According to a Feb 24. MLive.com article, "the Health Line has generated $4.3 billion in economic development. Cleveland began operation of the Health Line bus rapid transit system in 2008 after finishing the project on time and on budget."

 

"That's pretty incredible when you consider that it costs $200 million dollars to build that system, and it's been a magnet for $4.3 billion dollars in investment," Peters said. "Now, you don't need to be a math major to know that's a great return in investment. We know it works in Cleveland, and folks, if they can do it in Cleveland, we can do it here in the Detroit area."

 

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2012/04/rep_gary_peters_if_cleveland_c.html

What Rep. Peters doesn't know is that the $4.3 billion figure that's always tossed around includes all sorts of things that had nothing to do with the Healthline and were in the works years before we even had the federal funding--e.g., the Art Museum expansion ($350 million), the Miller Pavilion and Glickman Tower at the Clinic ($500 million), CSU Student Center, etc.  Not to say the Healthline hasn't generated development, but I wish folks would try to be more honest in the amount of development that has actually been created.  It's the only way you can do a fair and transparent cost-benefit analysis.

What Rep. Peters doesn't know is that $4.3 billion figure that's always tossed around includes all sorts of things that had nothing to do with the Healthline and were in the works years before we even had the Healthline funding--e.g., the Art Museum expansion ($350 million), the Miller Pavilion and Glickman Tower at the Clinic ($500 million), CSU Student Center, etc.  Not to say the Healthline hasn't generated development, but I wish folks would try to be more honest in the amount of development that has actually been created.  It's the only way you can do a fair cost-benefit analysis.

 

Well, likely he got that number directly from RTA, since they seem to like to take credit for all of it anyway.

I'm sure he did.

There are also some developments that would have ended up on Euclid Avenue no matter what, but the presence of the HealthLine and the city's response in the form of the transit zoning overlay district caused the sponsors of those developments to respond as well, by reorienting their designs to be more transit-supportive. I don't think you can include those in the dollar figure, but they should be accommodated in the HealthLine's impacts in some way.

What Rep. Peters doesn't know is that $4.3 billion figure that's always tossed around includes all sorts of things that had nothing to do with the Healthline and were in the works years before we even had the Healthline funding--e.g., the Art Museum expansion ($350 million), the Miller Pavilion and Glickman Tower at the Clinic ($500 million), CSU Student Center, etc.  Not to say the Healthline hasn't generated development, but I wish folks would try to be more honest in the amount of development that has actually been created.  It's the only way you can do a fair cost-benefit analysis.

 

Well, likely he got that number directly from RTA, since they seem to like to take credit for all of it anyway.

 

RTA's estimate was always much smaller, and didn't include a lot of already planned development.  The Plain Dealer actually came up with the larger number, and that is the one that has stuck.

We as Clevelanders should know full well that just because something is planned, it doesn't mean it will actually be built.  I agree that the $4.3 billion "as a direct result" is not being honest, but I don't think anyone can deny that a lot of that construction actually happened because of momentum and the Healthline had a lot to do with building and maintaining that momentum.

FWIW, I think the big number is still relevant as a motivation of building the line; even it didn't cause all the development, the HL is serving it which is pretty darn important too.  15k weekday ridership (and growing) during a down economic time is a pretty good badge of honor in itself.

I agree that there has been some developmental synergy created as a result of the Health Line but that, of course, RTA is taking way too much credit in implying the HL literally caused these projects to materialize out of thin air but for the HL ... assuming RTA's where the writer got the numbers from... Once interesting dynamic we haven't yet seen is when the build-out of areas served by the HL materializes on a large-scale level, will it not directly conflict with the HL's operation slowing it down greatly.  Right now a large reason why the HL is so fast (relatively speaking; compared to the #6 bus it replaced) is b/c the area is so sparsely populated.  With higher density and desired pedestrian traffic, it's sure to slow down service.  We're getting a little of that in CSU, but not much.

^I'm actually pretty optimistic that increased congestion downtown and midtown won't affect travel time so much as long as the police enforce the bus-only lanes. They often seem kind of superfluous now because Euclid's travel lanes are empty so much of the time, but maybe not for long. Then again, increased ridership probably will slow things down.

 

The situation is a little different at UC. I understand that the planners didn't think they could restrict Euclid to one travel lane in each direction east of 105th because of heavy traffic volume...but isn't that kind of the point of bus-only lanes?  If you only put them where there's no congestion, you're really not doing much at all...Except, I guess, managing expectations if the traffic does pick up where you have the lanes.

I took the health line for the first time on Saturday morning. Picking it up at Public Square at 7:15am, i had to help a visiting (thorasic?) surgeon figure our those infuriating machines and have several street people ask for change. The street people - disappointing (especially as they were hanging alongside the casino's exterior) but harmless and no biggy. Those machines - makes you want to scream bloody murder. Amtrust debacle part two! Not a good impression and if there wasn't some graft involved somewhere, then rta truly has an incompetence problem.

 

The bus itself is pretty nice though i did nickname it the mental health line based on the four or five clearly mentally ill patrons. Really no worse than what ive seen in other cities, except the ratio of ill-to-normal people was low. But again,  the bus was fine and i made it to seidman in 15 minutes tops.

 

Overall I liked it a lot. I can see east clevelanders and students taking it back and forth from the casino, though it would need some kind of armed security if that much cash is floating around.

 

 

We keep getting told that RTA is "negotiating" with the fare machine people, searching for a solution... which is completely unacceptable.  These things have been embarrassing our city for years, actively turning people against transit.  They need to go, now, and everyone at RTA responsible for letting it get to this point also needs to go, now.  Not negotiable.  What a disgrace.

We keep getting told that RTA is "negotiating" with the fare machine people, searching for a solution... which is completely unacceptable.  These things have been embarrassing our city for years, actively turning people against transit.  They need to go, now, and everyone at RTA responsible for letting it get to this point also needs to go, now.  Not negotiable.  What a disgrace.

 

I agree that the pace has been slow, but without being at the table, I find your comment unacceptable and unrealistic.

 

There has to be more to this than meets the eye.  I would like to know what the hold up is and why it's taking so long to rectify the situation.  What is in the contract with this company that allows them to get away with this?  I know Jerry cannot sat "too much" here, but the public does deserve to know what led to this, what step have been laid out to correct this and have a realistic time line for the correction to take place.

Yeah, I really don't understand how RTA could have effed up the fare machines this bad.  I know, budget, budget, budget, but FFS, it's not like RTA made the first ever order for an automated ticket machine. It really couldn't piggyback with another agency that knows what it's doing?  Boston replaced it's fare system about the same time...and it's amazingly good.

 

At the very least, everywhere where there are two fare vending machines next to each other, can someone slip a couple phone books under one of them to make them adult height?

Does anyone know who we should contact at the PD to see if they're interesting in looking into what went wrong, why it hasn't gotten fixed yet, and what RTA intends to do about it? Maybe Karen Farkas, she seems to be the reporter that covers most trasportation issues.

I could not disagree more, MTS.  We can't all be at this table you speak of, so we've hired public officials to represent our interests there.  We have every right to expect not only full information but tangible results.  If we aren't getting those, we need to make an informed decision about how to proceed, i.e. what needs to change.

I could not disagree more, MTS.  We can't all be at this table you speak of, so we've hired public officials to represent our interests there.  We have every right to expect not only full information but tangible results.  If we aren't getting those, we need to make an informed decision about how to proceed, i.e. what needs to change.

 

Without knowing all the details, how can you say

.......... They need to go, now, and everyone at RTA responsible for letting it get to this point also needs to go, now.  Not negotiable.  What a disgrace.

 

Thats like me not liking something at your job, but saying you need to be fired because it wasn't handled X way, without knowing any information about the contract or your company's policy's and procedures.

 

Yes, this is wrong/appears wrong, but to call for the firing of people is just as bad.  We need to know more information and why this programing was selected to begin with and what RTA is doing to rectify the problem, not fluff to appease us!

And letter to the plain dealer sent...

^Good move.  Great idea reaching out to PD.  Michelle Jarboe is another reporter who might be receptive.

Thats like me not liking something at your job, but saying you need to be fired because it wasn't handled X way, without knowing any information about the contract or your company's policy's and procedures.

 

This is well past the point of someone needing to get fired.  It has been for years now. 

 

And you do realize, I assume, that at no point have you ever paid me to represent you or make a major purchase with your money.  That's why this is different than you not liking my private performance at my private job.  I may not like what you do at your job, but so what, you and I don't presume to work for each other and we owe each other nothing.  Different story for public officials.  Different as night and day.

Does anyone know who we should contact at the PD to see if they're interesting in looking into what went wrong, why it hasn't gotten fixed yet, and what RTA intends to do about it? Maybe Karen Farkas, she seems to be the reporter that covers most trasportation issues.

 

Karen used to cover transportation issues until a couple of years ago. She now covers the college/university beat. The current transportation writer is Tom Breckenridge. I think he's a terrific reporter.

Does anyone know who we should contact at the PD to see if they're interesting in looking into what went wrong, why it hasn't gotten fixed yet, and what RTA intends to do about it? Maybe Karen Farkas, she seems to be the reporter that covers most trasportation issues.

 

Karen used to cover transportation issues until a couple of years ago. She now covers the college/university beat. The current transportation writer is Tom Breckenridge. I think he's a terrific reporter.

 

Is that the one that went to on to "Higher education?" LOL.

I came across this video and while watching it, I thought it demonstrated the Healthline's flaw perfectly. At the one minute point in the video, the bus stops at a station. It takes over a minute for it to finally leave that station and continue on its trip towards University Circle. This is wasted time at each station that make the trip longer than it should be and causes the bunching of the busses (Three westbound busses before you see even one eastbound bus).

 

Cleveland RTA-HealthLine side veiw ride

I came across this video and while watching it, I thought it demonstrated the Healthline's flaw perfectly. At the one minute point in the video, the bus stops at a station. It takes over a minute for it to finally leave that station and continue on its trip towards University Circle. This is wasted time at each station that make the trip longer than it should be and causes the bunching of the busses (Three westbound busses before you see even one eastbound bus).

 

Cleveland RTA-HealthLine side veiw ride

 

Flaw.  You can't determine that by one video

 

Variables

What date

What time

Was there other traffic situations that caused a delay,  not visibly present

 

 

Also why if you're on an East bound bus would you see another?

I see what ClevelandOhio was saying. If you see something (like this video) that is indicative of your experience, you share it.

I've seen it a million times and the video shows it perfectly so I'm not actually using this video to determine it, I just think it shows it.

 

And I'm saying while waiting at a station. While waiting for an westbound bus that took over 25 minutes to arrive, I see 3 eastbound busses, either spreadout or bunched up, before my one westbound bus ever arrives. This has happened numerous times and for both directions

FYI, regarding Penn Square developments at/near East 55th and Euclid. What role for the HealthLine?

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3435.msg624192.html#msg624192

I've seen it a million times and the video shows it perfectly so I'm not actually using this video to determine it, I just think it shows it.

 

And I'm saying while waiting at a station. While waiting for an westbound bus that took over 25 minutes to arrive, I see 3 eastbound busses, either spreadout or bunched up, before my one westbound bus ever arrives. This has happened numerous times and for both directions

 

Now I understand you're on the platform not on the bus.    I thought you meant you're physically on an eastbound bus.  My bad.

The Healthline gets a little blurb from Maryland:

 

http://www.gazette.net/article/20120613/NEWS/706139585/1124/will-brt-get-montgomery-commuters-out-of-their-cars&template=gazette

People talk about a conversion of the healthline to a streetcar line a lot. I looked at the stations, and most seem to be about 95 feet long, besides the ones downtown, which are slightly over 55 feet.

The bus only lanes are about 10 feet wide.

 

Modern Articulated Streetcar

Length: 66 feet    Width: 8 feet

Capacity: 156 passengers; 30 seated, 127 standing

 

 

Healthline BRT Vehicles hold 100 total. I believe they are often over capacity.

 

Im not sure if the station platform heights are the same for BRT and Streetcars, but they appear to be(highly unscientific) ha!

 

So if an upgrade to streetcars was needed, I think our BRT infrastructure works perfectly, and was probably designed to do so. The platform lengths are long enough for the longer streetcar vehicles.

Even for the shorter downtown ones it would work, because only the doors have to measure of with the platform, not the entire vehicle.

 

 

 

With the stations already in place, we would need the rail, electrical, and vehicles. Still expensive, but slightly less. Anyone know how much a conversion would probably cost?

Bonus pic of a BRT vehicle with some color. Not the best color IMO. Just to clarify so no one gets confused, this is not in Cleveland

 

 

So if an upgrade to streetcars was needed, I think our BRT infrastructure works perfectly, and was probably designed to do so.

 

 

A gold star to the designers if that is indeed correct.

 

So if an upgrade to streetcars was needed, I think our BRT infrastructure works perfectly, and was probably designed to do so.

 

 

A gold star to the designers if that is indeed correct.

I doubt it's more than a happy accident. The Healthline busses are of similar length/height to a streetcar, so a platform that is designed specifically for a Healthline bus is automatically of similar dimensions to a platform for a streetcar.

 

If we're going to continue discussing this we probably ought to move to the either the Healthline thread or Cleveland Transit ideas for the future thread.