I love Licking County, didn't hear great things about it when I first moved to Central Ohio in 2006.  Then my territory included the whole county along with Knox and others starting in 2012. 

 

I've since convinced my bride through many drives and zillow searches; we are looking at building or buying there before we start our family. We have big dogs and are looking to add some different animals(and hopefully toys) to the family so Short North isn't feasible anymore, even though one of our neighbors has a pig.

1 hour ago, wpcc88 said:

I love Licking County, didn't hear great things about it when I first moved to Central Ohio in 2006.  Then my territory included the whole county along with Knox and others starting in 2012. 

 

I've since convinced my bride through many drives and zillow searches; we are looking at building or buying there before we start our family. We have big dogs and are looking to add some different animals(and hopefully toys) to the family so Short North isn't feasible anymore, even though one of our neighbors has a pig.

As someone who grew up there, it's a very friendly place and the access to Columbus via 161 (from Granville/Newark/Heath) is so quick and easy. 

6 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

 

Yes, there's a HUGE gravel lot that has been bought up over the past few years by local philanthropist. In the below map, the area in Red, they will replace the current city building with a new one, plus a parking garage.  In the area in Green, that's where the Printers Block Units will be.  The area in Yellow will be where the Courthouse Row Condos will be.  I hope that gives you a better visual. 

This is awesome, thanks so much for sharing. Not sure where you get your information but my google search turned up completely flat for anything except some of the ongoing infrastructure changes (new planting and roundabouts coming to S 4th!). I'm quite surprised they're actually replacing the current city building. With all of the empty land within the city you think they'd forego the demolition and just construct on some brownfield land. I wonder if the existing building is really that inadequate and they're just dodging significant deferred maintenance. 

1 hour ago, wpcc88 said:

I love Licking County, didn't hear great things about it when I first moved to Central Ohio in 2006.  Then my territory included the whole county along with Knox and others starting in 2012. 

 

I've since convinced my bride through many drives and zillow searches; we are looking at building or buying there before we start our family. We have big dogs and are looking to add some different animals(and hopefully toys) to the family so Short North isn't feasible anymore, even though one of our neighbors has a pig.

 

I'm not going to try and persuade you, but Licking County is honestly a great place to live.  Something that differentiates Licking County from say Delaware County is terrain. Delaware county is a lot flatter and plain.  Central/Eastern Licking County gets into that first stage of beautiful rolling hills of Eastern Ohio .  There are some absolutely amazing housing divisions being built in western Newark (Park Trails Subdivision) and Northern Newark (Planters Edge) that have some of the best geography in Central Ohio.  Its a place i would love to build to be honest. 

8 minutes ago, jebleprls22 said:

This is awesome, thanks so much for sharing. Not sure where you get your information but my google search turned up completely flat for anything except some of the ongoing infrastructure changes (new planting and roundabouts coming to S 4th!). I'm quite surprised they're actually replacing the current city building. With all of the empty land within the city you think they'd forego the demolition and just construct on some brownfield land. I wonder if the existing building is really that inadequate and they're just dodging significant deferred maintenance. 

 

Well lets just say i have some inside info. None of that is "official" yet that's why you haven't heard anything news worthy...yet.  Below are the gravel surface lots that are highlighted in the above post. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, OhioFinest said:

 

Well lets just say i have some inside info. None of that is "official" yet that's why you haven't heard anything news worthy...yet.  Below are the gravel surface lots that are highlighted in the above post. 

 

 

Filling in that huge lot will make such a difference. It's been empty as long as I can remember. Not much to look at while you waited in line at the old McDonald's drive-thru haha

Extending the energy towards The Works and around the new Farmer's Market Pavilion will do wonders for creating a more energetic core. Such exciting prospects! 

8 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

 

Yes, there's a HUGE gravel lot that has been bought up over the past few years by local philanthropist. In the below map, the area in Red, they will replace the current city building with a new one, plus a parking garage.  In the area in Green, that's where the Printers Block Units will be.  The area in Yellow will be where the Courthouse Row Condos will be.  I hope that gives you a better visual. 

 

Thank you very much for the map.  That is a lot of great infill.  Should really make downtown feel more dense. 

 

Ok, here is something else that I've been hiding....this one would be absolutely fantastic for Newark.  It seems as if there is loosely a plan to save the old bowling alley in Downtown Newark. Yes, there i an old abandoned bowling alley in downtown Newark.  For decades!! I cant state how awesome this project could be for Newark since the only other bowling alley in town was torn down last year.  This would be a nice social night spot for people to go to with the way it looks to be done.  It would be adjacent to the other areas already pointed out. Could be a game changer for Downtown Newark IMO.   In the below pictures, it is the building highlighted in yellow. 

 

 

 

 

Also, while i am online, i want to give a shout out to another downtown Newark establishment. If you are a Wine type of person, you need to check out Sand Hollow Speakeasy.  This place has some pretty darn good Wine....they also have the most random amazing plate of 4 cheese nachos on Earth...its truly bizarre.  Anyway, they are located just on the other side of the Bowling Alley in the above post, right across from the old historic jail.  They are worth a stop.

 

 

21 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

 

I'm not going to try and persuade you, but Licking County is honestly a great place to live.  Something that differentiates Licking County from say Delaware County is terrain. Delaware county is a lot flatter and plain.  Central/Eastern Licking County gets into that first stage of beautiful rolling hills of Eastern Ohio .  There are some absolutely amazing housing divisions being built in western Newark (Park Trails Subdivision) and Northern Newark (Planters Edge) that have some of the best geography in Central Ohio.  Its a place i would love to build to be honest. 

 

Thats what attracts me to it, I grew up with hills and want them and space again. 

 

We’re either going to be looking south of Granville, east of Pataskala or Alexandria area. Ideally I’d like to be off of 37, more Hebron area for better access to both 161/70. Best of both worlds for our families.

1 hour ago, wpcc88 said:

 

Thats what attracts me to it, I grew up with hills and want them and space again. 

 

We’re either going to be looking south of Granville, east of Pataskala or Alexandria area. Ideally I’d like to be off of 37, more Hebron area for better access to both 161/70. Best of both worlds for our families.

 

if you are looking south of Granville and off of 37, there is a brand spanking new housing division that has been built with lots for sale.  It looks like it will be a very nice place to live.  The first 2 pics show you were that is.  The other housing division i'm throwing in this post is just east of 37 in western Newark City (but Granville schools).  This housing division sits on some absolutely amazing terrain. 

 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 8:41 AM, Toddguy said:

Sorry I disagree. Both this building and the Boston City Hall should have been destroyed yesterday as both appear to be monstrosities.

I'm going to be the contrarian here and say I actually like both of these buildings. I think the architecture is unique and defined by their era. Now I wouldn't want an entire city of brutalist structures, but a couple add some interest. Plus they can look really cool when lit with modern led lighting, check out Boston City Hall's 2019 renovation. 

 

(I also think Boston City Hall can feel desolate because of the giant brick plaza out front, a fate that Newark doesn't seem to suffer from) 

On 6/5/2020 at 1:53 PM, OhioFinest said:

 

if you are looking south of Granville and off of 37, there is a brand spanking new housing division that has been built with lots for sale.  It looks like it will be a very nice place to live.  The first 2 pics show you were that is.  The other housing division i'm throwing in this post is just east of 37 in western Newark City (but Granville schools).  This housing division sits on some absolutely amazing terrain. 

 

 

 

We've looked at the first development and that's more our speed.  We've also looked at the option of an existing home with more land and just remodeling or rebuilding as an option. Personal reasons have our hands tied at the moment but 2021 is what we're pushing for at the earliest, unless a killer deal pops up.

On 6/5/2020 at 10:01 PM, 17thState said:

I'm going to be the contrarian here and say I actually like both of these buildings. I think the architecture is unique and defined by their era. Now I wouldn't want an entire city of brutalist structures, but a couple add some interest. Plus they can look really cool when lit with modern led lighting, check out Boston City Hall's 2019 renovation. 

 

(I also think Boston City Hall can feel desolate because of the giant brick plaza out front, a fate that Newark doesn't seem to suffer from) 

Well there is always room for different opinions. And yes I agree the giant sterile brick plaza makes BCH much worse. The Newark building, while I don't like it, is not nearly as problematic to me as it is smaller and on what appears to be just a quarter block and does not appear to be as much of a  dominant force in the downtown(it would be much worse if it were located on the square itself, as an example.)

19 hours ago, wpcc88 said:

 

We've looked at the first development and that's more our speed.  We've also looked at the option of an existing home with more land and just remodeling or rebuilding as an option. Personal reasons have our hands tied at the moment but 2021 is what we're pushing for at the earliest, unless a killer deal pops up.

 

Awesome, good luck on your search!  Licking County is at the beginning of something special.  Truly a nice place to live. 

 

 

https://www.newarkadvocate.com/story/news/2020/06/29/arcade-renovation-downtown-newark-project-15-million-ohio-tax-credits/3278486001/

 

Here is the latest with the continued Downtown Newark Revitalization Project that centers around the old Newark Arcade. This is going to be spectacular when completed!!!  Its long been vacant, but it has always had so much potential.  With the momentum going on in Downtown Newark, this would be like pouring gas onto the fire.  Cant wait for this to start taking shape.  

 

Just for reference, here are some pics of the current Newark Arcade:

 

The entrance is the blue arcade sign.The Mini Mall to the left and the The Center Bar have both been closed and will become part of the new Arcade.

 

 

Restoration Renderings:

 

Edited July 1, 20204 yr by OhioFinest

Also, here is another recently finished project in Downtown Newark.  McKenna's Market opened a super cool corner store.  The restoration in there has been amazing.  The original ceilings and floors were salvaged.  It has some really cool old fashioned niche items in there.  Solid addition to the Square:

 

 

 

 

 

 

They also renovated and created Loft Apartments on the 2nd and 3rd floors above the market...which look fantastic!! These are called The Lansing Building Lofts:

 

 

 

 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 1:19 PM, wpcc88 said:

I love Licking County, didn't hear great things about it when I first moved to Central Ohio in 2006.  Then my territory included the whole county along with Knox and others starting in 2012. 

 

I've since convinced my bride through many drives and zillow searches; we are looking at building or buying there before we start our family. We have big dogs and are looking to add some different animals(and hopefully toys) to the family so Short North isn't feasible anymore, even though one of our neighbors has a pig.

 

In the Short North?  You ... mean ... a pug ... right?

 

You must mean a pug.

 

... ?

 

... you actually mean a pig, don't you?

On 7/2/2020 at 2:38 PM, Gramarye said:

 

In the Short North?  You ... mean ... a pug ... right?

 

You must mean a pug.

 

... ?

 

... you actually mean a pig, don't you?

 

Yes, I actually mean a pig. I haven’t taken a pic of it recently because it’s lost it’s “wow” factor to me and it’s not put often but I’ll try and dig an old one up and post it.

https://www.newarkadvocate.com/story/news/2020/12/11/proposed-river-road-housing-development-would-add-322-homes-newark/6506434002/

 

A 322 unit subdivision is being proposed in Western Newark off of River Road.  This area is exploding with growth. There is some very very nice topography where this subdivision will be built.  This would be a great addition to the city of Newark.  It would sit right next to the Park Trails Subdivision.  Good to see Newark continuing to grow.  

Edited January 18, 20214 yr by OhioFinest

1 hour ago, OhioFinest said:

https://www.newarkadvocate.com/story/news/2020/12/11/proposed-river-road-housing-development-would-add-322-homes-newark/6506434002/

 

A 322 unit subdivision is being proposed in Western Newark off of River Road.  This area is exploding with growth. There is some very very nice topography where this subdivision will be built.  This would be a great addition to the city of Newark.  It would sit right next to the Park Trails Subdivision.  Good to see Newark continuing to grow.  

Huge win for city of Newark, a great income tax addition without a huge demand for additional services.

However, residents of Granville are not so happy about this plan and the impact it's likely to have on thew school district (noting that I do live in Granville, but am hoping to move to Columbus in the next few years). Lots of discussion on the local parents Facebook pages figuring out how to stop it from happening. Personally, I think it's pretty inevitable this or a similar plan will happen at some point with these parcels, Newark has most of the power here and there is little downside from their perspective.

The main concern most people have is that the scale of the development will necessitate a new middle school, which is estimated to require a 3.5-4 mil levy paid by all district residents. Our school taxes are already some of the highest in the state, so adding another $1500/yr for a $300-400k home from the next 37 years is not something anyone is happy about. Granville as a whole is very supportive of the schools, but the last few levees have been really, really close. 

There is some irony that a lot of the opposition is coming from people in Park Trails, though to be fair they will also have to deal with the traffic impact in addition to paying for the new building. It's also my understanding most of the Park Trails houses had a 20-year special assessment to pay for the new building. I would personally be much less bothered by the new development if this was done again (or some other similar methodology), just hat shifted a higher degree of the new school over to either the new residents or (better yet) the developer.

(I'll add that I'm sorry if any of that came off at all harsh, its been quite the heated topic of discussion around these parts. It's also hardy a unique issue around Ohio, yet another example of our terrible school funding methodology.)

No you're fine...but seriously, these same people cant have it both ways.  They get to live within Newark City Limits and pay considerably less in taxes, but get to send their kids to Granville Exempted Village Schools.   I don't know how these deals work, but it seems logical to me to think that if Park Trails and this newest housing development are within Newark City Limits, that they should go to Newark City Schools?  I just don't understand how that works? I mean the reality is that people who live in Park Trails are in FACT Newark people...not Granville people.  Makes absolutely no sense to me lol.  

Edited January 19, 20214 yr by OhioFinest

^School district boundaries used to adjust with annexation, but this stopped in 1954/55 with state law changes. The case in Newark is not dissimilar to Columbus, where the city extends into almost every neighboring school district. One could argue that this is a positive for Ohio's older cities, because it means they can attract young families that may not otherwise want to live in the primary city school district. One could also argue that this hurts urban school districts, as they may not benefit from growth of the primary city they serve. The win-win agreement in Columbus attempted to balance this situation with funding exchanges, but I'm not aware of any similar agreements.

5 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

No you're fine...but seriously, these same people cant have it both ways.  They get to live within Newark City Limits and pay considerably less in taxes, but get to send their kids to Granville Exempted Village Schools.   

 

The funny thing is, Park Trails (and the other Granville School/Newark City developments) pay the same amount of Granville school taxes as anyone else in the district. Granville taxes are really only high as a percentage because of the school taxes (65-70% of our property tax bill here in the village), and high as an absolute because the property values tend to be higher. Granville schools also have a 0.75% income tax for all district residents.

On top of that, the Park Trails people pay Newark City income tax, which is higher than Granville Village income tax (Granville Township doesn't have income tax). The quality of municipal services are also lower than the village, going by Facebook discussion. So the whole "Granville Schools, Newark Taxes" marketing used over there is hilarious because it's actually advertising a negative.

The main homebuyer benefit these developments offer is a type of house and development that Granville Village/Township would never allow, mainly because they actively consider the impact on school with any development proposals. The township has a 5 acre lot size minimum, the village is quite strict with its zoning requirements. Most houses in Granville are either older/small or large/expensive compared to the very family-friendly $350k/2500sq ft houses being built. 

Granville does have a pretty aggressive green space program (and levy) to buy up development rights for large parcels to prevent them from becoming large housing developments, along with the more conventional strategies of refusing to extend water and sewer services. Apparently there were also efforts back in the 90's to incorporate the township (possibly the full boundaries of the school district?), but people in the township didn't want to pay the extra income tax so it didn't go anywhere. Seems to me like they are going to end up paying more now either way.

 

 

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200216/is-granville-anti-development-denison-president-sparks-debate

 

Interesting...as i have many friends who live in Park Trails and they are always bragging about getting the best of both worlds...lower taxes vs better schools (which to be honest, is debatable if you want to talk about actual curriculum).  This also touches on what the Denison University professor told the people of Granville a year ago in the link provided....that Granville has become anti-growth in terms of population and economic growth.  Granville needs to decide whether it wants to be a part of the MORPC or not.  Growth is coming...whether Granville likes it or not.  Almost every Central Ohio community has embraced that growth, with the exception of Granville.  Lastly, i don't want to paint Granville too unfairly as i know many great people from Granville, its just issues like these continue to Granville its reputation.  Thanks for the information though!!!

 

Longaberger basket building won't become hotel, on market for $6.5 million

 

The Longaberger basket building, vacated by the basket-maker in 2016 and saved from foreclosure in late 2017, will not become the luxury hotel announced 15 months ago.

 

It was Oct. 21, 2019, before the deadly coronavirus pandemic changed everybody’s expectations, when local dignitaries gathered inside the lobby of the iconic structure to hear plans to convert Dave Longaberger's dream creation into a hotel with 150 rooms, a restaurant and indoor pool.  Hotel owner-operator Ceres Enterprises canceled the project due to the impact of coronavirus on the company's finances, and the building is back on the market, available for $6.5 million.

 

MORE:  https://www.thisweeknews.com/story/news/2021/01/15/longaberger-basket-building-wont-become-hotel-back-market-6-5-million/4172828001/

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2021/01/20/longaberger-basket-building-condos-office-building.html

 

Some speculation from the listing agent in the above Business First article about other potential uses:

 

The 180,000-square-foot building, which was recently listed for sale for $6.5 million by commercial real estate firm Shai-Hess, is likely to once again become used by a commercial tenant after it sells, said Shai-Hess partner Brandon Hess. -- "I think office is the single best use. There is opportunity to have some flex space, or if someone wanted to deliver some condos along with office. I think mixed-use with retail, condos and office space is another potential (use)."

^^ I think it needs to be said that it is alright not to desire growth. I find this especially to be true in a residential community like Granville. The first line in the Dispatch article makes it clear that those arguing Granville is difficult are those who are focused on making money off the Village - business investors and developers. How does more business and high density residential benefit the quality of life of Granville residents? Especially when said development will require tax increases to build a new school and increased traffic. The charm of Granville is its small town/rural feel with limited commercial. If thats what the residents want, why should they be criticized for it? There is a ton of land between New Albany and Granville left to be developed and Newark provides numerous revitalization opportunities.

 

 

 

 

The Granville school system doesn't have a huge trailer park or run-down '70s apartment complex full of kids like most of the other semi-rural-turned-suburban districts that got popular after 1995, does it? Usually those drag the school ratings way down and it doesn't seem like that in Granville.

You're right, Granville doesn't. Which is why Granville should maintain high standards so it doesn't lead to developments that drag the school system down once they age. It also speaks to our need as a society to reduce inequality and rethink school funding. We need our communities to be more sustainable rather than continually looking for the next area to develop.

1 hour ago, LythamLight said:

^^ I think it needs to be said that it is alright not to desire growth. I find this especially to be true in a residential community like Granville. The first line in the Dispatch article makes it clear that those arguing Granville is difficult are those who are focused on making money off the Village - business investors and developers. How does more business and high density residential benefit the quality of life of Granville residents?

 

It clearly benefits the quality of life of the new Granville residents.  They get to be residents of Granville.

 

There was a time when long-time residents of the sleepy outlying town of New Albany were saying much the same thing that you're saying now.  Some of them are still probably miffed to this day that the little hamlet grew up.  But there are many more people who are glad that they finally got a chance to live in the town--a chance the oldtimers would have denied them.

 

The existing residents get more customers and workers for local businesses, more taxes from the new incomes and properties, more parishioners for local churches, more caregivers, more possible matches for those that are single and hope to find someone locally, and a wider base to spread out the cost of new infrastructure improvements (at least some of which were going to happen anyway because even if Granville fought growth tooth and nail, it's still situated between Newark and Columbus).  And if it requires a new middle school--since when are more kids a bad thing?

I remember when by far the most interesting thing in New Albany was the hobby shop located at the grain silos.

So the argument is that development is fine even if it reduces the quality of life for current residents because it improves quality of life for new residents. If these developments (of some wealth) were not allowed to happen and those residents instead had to build new or revitalize property in another city, say Newark, would that not improve the quality of life for the existing residents of Newark? Or is it only new residents that we care about? I’m sure Newark would benefit more than Granville from “more customers and workers for local businesses, more taxes from the new incomes and properties, more parishioners for local churches, more caregivers, etc”.

 

Granville has been mostly built out and sustainable for many years. It already supports the local businesses and institutions. Yes, development will occur. It has been happing for the last 20+ years but in sustainable ways - in part to township acreage standards and a green space program. What Granville should not do is lower development standards where high density housing and commercial is allowed; this would significantly alter the character of the community.

 

The heart of the issue is schools. There is development pressure in Granville because people want their kids in the Granville school district. As a society we need to reduce inequality and fairly fund schools so that communities are on a more level playing field. There should not be this overwhelming demand to move to a certain community just for the schools.

 

Also, Granville is not what New Albany was before it developed and I have a feeling that the new residents of New Albany would not have wanted the ‘opportunity’ to live there when it was just a little hamlet - two different types of people. I am less familiar with New Albany’s history though, so I digress.

Lets not get away from the point here though...this housing development isn't about Granville.  This development is about the city of Newark. This development would be within Newark City Limits...not Granville.  So while they may have legitimate concerns about enrollment issues, Newark should do what's in the best interest for the city of Newark and this development is a no brainer for the city of Newark.  Again, Granville can either accept that reality or not.  That's what this boils down to.  The stark reality is this...before Granville knows it...Newark encroaching upon them will be the least of their worries.  

Edited January 21, 20214 yr by OhioFinest

15 hours ago, LythamLight said:

It has been happing for the last 20+ years but in sustainable ways - in part to township acreage standards and a green space program.

I'm not convinced that an acreage standard is sustainable. Do we really all need to waste 2 acres (or whatever the rule is) of farmland to build a house? Then you just have to mow it all of the time. If everyone keeps building on 2 acre lots in the countryside, it's not the countryside anymore, it's just a mess. To me, a much better solution for both current and future residents is to preserve that farmland, and build some reasonable density neighborhoods (grid streets, alleys instead of driveways, small apartment buildings allowed) that are actually connected to town. Unfortunately it's not that easy, but I don't see how acreage rules produce a desirable result.

I absolutely agree the City of Newark should be fully in favor of this development, there is virtually no downside beyond some angry constituents in Park Trails. Adding a bunch of $400k houses and $1500/mo apartments (and more importantly, the residents who can afford them) will be great for the city tax base. The school issue isn’t a City of Newark problem - GEVSD residents can either pay for a new building or accept the schools might not be as good as the are now. I don’t hold this against Newark, it’s smart on their part.

 

It’s been my observation that Granville just doesn't have the “all development is good development” mentality common around Ohio. Both direct and indirect impact on existing residents and businesses is strongly considered, so the typical suburban stuff like sprawl subdivisions, fast food, and strip malls barely exists. Granville has mostly benefited from this, the core village (commercial and residential) is quite healthy as a result.

 

One downside is the “Granville tax” some businesses like to charge, at least some of them exploit the minimal competition and preference of residents to shop local with high prices, meh quality, and unambitious selection. This is more common in the places that have been around longer (who haven’t entirely accepted how easy it is to just go to Columbus now), many of the newer places would be competitive anywhere. This is one area I can see growth such making things better for current residents. More people to support things like a wider variety of restaurants and local stores, more competition to support the existing ones to actually try (and more customers if they do). More residents also might mean more diversity (economic, cultural, racial) which is another sore topic for Granville as it is now.

(All of this is actually a big part of what is pushing my wife and I to consider moving closer to Columbus before our son starts school. While we love Granville but it's just feels a little too...small(?), homogenous(?), isolated(?) for us. I posted about that elsewhere - https://forum.urbanohio.com/topic/17128-columbus-area-relocation-planning-ahead/)

 

 

I share concerns about the new development costing existing Granville residents money, but there is a not small percentage of people who just want to keep things just how they are (including the size of the schools and feel of the area). I don’t really agree with that, it’s not very realistic and as of right now mostly out of our control anyway. In my mind, no matter what everyone wants the area to look like, the only way to make sure development is sustainable is to incorporate as much of district as possible while it’s still an option. The township is pretty powerless to stop annexation. Not just Newark, inevitably Pataskala (who it seems truly doesn’t care about school impact) will continue to sprawl its way up 16 and approve any development proposal that comes along. The township people need to just suck it up and pay village income tax and deal with some potential village regulations.

 

1 hour ago, Ted said:

To me, a much better solution for both current and future residents is to preserve that farmland, and build some reasonable density neighborhoods (grid streets, alleys instead of driveways, small apartment buildings allowed) that are actually connected to town.

 

For the most part, preserving farmland as farmland has been the main goal of the current open space program. By my count, the township has either development rights or outright owns ~1800 acres. The township lot restrictions are mainly to ensure any new houses will be priced as such to be self-sustaining for school impact, it seems to be one of the few ways they can accomplish that.

20 hours ago, mrCharlie said:

I absolutely agree the City of Newark should be fully in favor of this development, there is virtually no downside beyond some angry constituents in Park Trails. Adding a bunch of $400k houses and $1500/mo apartments (and more importantly, the residents who can afford them) will be great for the city tax base. The school issue isn’t a City of Newark problem - GEVSD residents can either pay for a new building or accept the schools might not be as good as the are now. I don’t hold this against Newark, it’s smart on their part.

 

It’s been my observation that Granville just doesn't have the “all development is good development” mentality common around Ohio. Both direct and indirect impact on existing residents and businesses is strongly considered, so the typical suburban stuff like sprawl subdivisions, fast food, and strip malls barely exists. Granville has mostly benefited from this, the core village (commercial and residential) is quite healthy as a result.

 

One downside is the “Granville tax” some businesses like to charge, at least some of them exploit the minimal competition and preference of residents to shop local with high prices, meh quality, and unambitious selection. This is more common in the places that have been around longer (who haven’t entirely accepted how easy it is to just go to Columbus now), many of the newer places would be competitive anywhere. This is one area I can see growth such making things better for current residents. More people to support things like a wider variety of restaurants and local stores, more competition to support the existing ones to actually try (and more customers if they do). More residents also might mean more diversity (economic, cultural, racial) which is another sore topic for Granville as it is now.

(All of this is actually a big part of what is pushing my wife and I to consider moving closer to Columbus before our son starts school. While we love Granville but it's just feels a little too...small(?), homogenous(?), isolated(?) for us. I posted about that elsewhere - https://forum.urbanohio.com/topic/17128-columbus-area-relocation-planning-ahead/)

 

 

I share concerns about the new development costing existing Granville residents money, but there is a not small percentage of people who just want to keep things just how they are (including the size of the schools and feel of the area). I don’t really agree with that, it’s not very realistic and as of right now mostly out of our control anyway. In my mind, no matter what everyone wants the area to look like, the only way to make sure development is sustainable is to incorporate as much of district as possible while it’s still an option. The township is pretty powerless to stop annexation. Not just Newark, inevitably Pataskala (who it seems truly doesn’t care about school impact) will continue to sprawl its way up 16 and approve any development proposal that comes along. The township people need to just suck it up and pay village income tax and deal with some potential village regulations.

 

 

Great post...well said.  Your last paragraph is exactly what i was referring to when i said "before Granville knows it...Newark encroaching upon them will be the least of their worries."   Pataskala and New Albany are annexing land and approving development at a far faster rate than Newark is.  If anything, Granville needs to reach out to communities like New Albany for guidance on growth and development.  To be completely honest, this new housing development is an area i would strongly consider building in.  The rolling hills are absolutely amazing!! I hope that cooler heads in Granville will prevail.  

Just in case anybody was interested in where this development will be built...

 

23 hours ago, mrCharlie said:

I share concerns about the new development costing existing Granville residents money, but there is a not small percentage of people who just want to keep things just how they are (including the size of the schools and feel of the area). I don’t really agree with that, it’s not very realistic and as of right now mostly out of our control anyway. In my mind, no matter what everyone wants the area to look like, the only way to make sure development is sustainable is to incorporate as much of district as possible while it’s still an option. The township is pretty powerless to stop annexation. Not just Newark, inevitably Pataskala (who it seems truly doesn’t care about school impact) will continue to sprawl its way up 16 and approve any development proposal that comes along. The township people need to just suck it up and pay village income tax and deal with some potential village regulations.

 

 

While I generally agree with this, I laugh at the impression that Pataskala really doesn't care about school impact.  On the Pataskala FB group, everyone talks about Etna not caring about school impact!

 

Meanwhile, my parents still live in Kirkersville and I'm cheering for the development tide to finally reach there.

 

However, I just want to make sure I understand the lay of the land here: Is this proposed development in Granville Township and not in the City of Newark?  I'm assuming it must be in the City of Newark because of the talk about Newark greenlighting it, but maybe I'm missing something.  Ohio local government law can be strange.  But if it's in the City of Newark, why would Granville annexing Granville Township change anything?  Or were you just making that point as a more general one, not as something that would affect this proposed development?

24 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

While I generally agree with this, I laugh at the impression that Pataskala really doesn't care about school impact.  On the Pataskala FB group, everyone talks about Etna not caring about school impact!

 

I am definitely not super well versed on Pataskala (and could be conflating the two), but I got that impression (which absolutely could be wrong) from various newspaper articles over the years that Pataskala city government was bad about green lighting any proposals that had the potential to bring more income tax revenue into the city. And many of these required a lot of resident opposition to keep in check. I also had a talk with our realtor about Licking Heights and the reasons behind their overcrowding issues after my wife and I looked at what was basically our dream house in that district. The school concerns shut that down pretty quick, it's says...something when they have a directory of American private schools book sitting out on a coffee table.

Mainly I was referring to Granville (both village and township) governments being (what seemed to me) unusually considerate of the impact on schools in all development, even though in Ohio government structure it's a different entity's problem to make up the difference. Seeing how it plays out in some places reminds me a bit of when Kasich cut the Local Government Fund - he got to look like a good guy by not raising state taxes, but lots of people ultimate ended up paying more (or local entities made some deeper cuts). But I digress... 

As for the proposed development, its in the City of Newark - as far as I'm concerned this proposal or something similar is going to happen. There is a thin strip of Granville Village that blocks Newark City from going any further in that direction, though there is still empty land in the Granville Schools/Newark City overlap. I'm more making the point that there isn't anything stopping any surrounding municipalities from doing similar annexation of areas currently served by Granville schools unless as much of the district as possible were annexed as part of Granville. There is little stopping Pataskala, Heath, or Newark from annexing Granville Schools area along a different border and doing the same thing again.

My main point is that people in Granville should probably look at this as a preview of what's likely to come over the next 20 years one way or another as Columbus marches eastward, and decide if we want to be the ones to control what things become. There is time if it happens soon, but if everyone continues to cross their fingers nothing will change its going to be way too late.

59 minutes ago, mrCharlie said:

 

I am definitely not super well versed on Pataskala (and could be conflating the two), but I got that impression (which absolutely could be wrong) from various newspaper articles over the years that Pataskala city government was bad about green lighting any proposals that had the potential to bring more income tax revenue into the city. And many of these required a lot of resident opposition to keep in check. I also had a talk with our realtor about Licking Heights and the reasons behind their overcrowding issues after my wife and I looked at what was basically our dream house in that district. The school concerns shut that down pretty quick, it's says...something when they have a directory of American private schools book sitting out on a coffee table.

Mainly I was referring to Granville (both village and township) governments being (what seemed to me) unusually considerate of the impact on schools in all development, even though in Ohio government structure it's a different entity's problem to make up the difference. Seeing how it plays out in some places reminds me a bit of when Kasich cut the Local Government Fund - he got to look like a good guy by not raising state taxes, but lots of people ultimate ended up paying more (or local entities made some deeper cuts). But I digress... 

As for the proposed development, its in the City of Newark - as far as I'm concerned this proposal or something similar is going to happen. There is a thin strip of Granville Village that blocks Newark City from going any further in that direction, though there is still empty land in the Granville Schools/Newark City overlap. I'm more making the point that there isn't anything stopping any surrounding municipalities from doing similar annexation of areas currently served by Granville schools unless as much of the district as possible were annexed as part of Granville. There is little stopping Pataskala, Heath, or Newark from annexing Granville Schools area along a different border and doing the same thing again.

My main point is that people in Granville should probably look at this as a preview of what's likely to come over the next 20 years one way or another as Columbus marches eastward, and decide if we want to be the ones to control what things become. There is time if it happens soon, but if everyone continues to cross their fingers nothing will change its going to be way too late.

"My main point is that people in Granville should probably look at this as a preview of what's likely to come over the next 20 years one way or another as Columbus marches eastward, and decide if we want to be the ones to control what things become. There is time if it happens soon, but if everyone continues to cross their fingers nothing will change its going to be way too late."

 

^^^

This...this is exactly what Granville needs to be doing.  Over the years, Granville withdrew from MORPC, Grow Licking County..etc etc.  I really believe Granville needs to step back, take a deep breath, figure out a strategic growth plan that doesn't hurt their "charm", change their tune...just a tad...and embrace the growth of Central Ohio is experiencing and will continue to experience.  Newark/Heath/Granville metro is positioned extremely well for a bright future.   Embrace it!!!

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, mrCharlie said:

One downside is the “Granville tax” some businesses like to charge, at least some of them exploit the minimal competition and preference of residents to shop local with high prices, meh quality, and unambitious selection. This is more common in the places that have been around longer (who haven’t entirely accepted how easy it is to just go to Columbus now), many of the newer places would be competitive anywhere. This is one area I can see growth such making things better for current residents. More people to support things like a wider variety of restaurants and local stores, more competition to support the existing ones to actually try (and more customers if they do). More residents also might mean more diversity (economic, cultural, racial) which is another sore topic for Granville as it is now.

 

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3 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

This...this is exactly what Granville needs to be doing.  Over the years, Granville withdrew from MORPC, Grow Licking County..etc etc.  I really believe Granville needs to step back, take a deep breath, figure out a strategic growth plan that doesn't hurt their "charm", change their tune...just a tad...and embrace the growth of Central Ohio is experiencing and will continue to experience.  Newark/Heath/Granville metro is positioned extremely well for a bright future.   Embrace it!!!

 

Just my take, but I feel there is a strong shared identity in Granville which is often overlooked by those who argue Granville should just get onboard with Central Ohio organizations and large new developments. Granville isn't (or wasn't...) full of chains and I think most residents are likely happy to pay a "Granville Tax" if it means supporting local businesses that help create the feeling of community. In general, as large corporations/chains have come to dominate our lives, America has lost this feeling of community and shared identity. Perhaps Granville has some things to learn from these Central Ohio organizations but they should also take note and incorporate some of the things that make Granville a strong community. 

 

With a strong shared identity comes a willingness to pay high taxes to support the local school district, etc. Will the new residents of high density developments (such as this proposed Newark development in Granville schools) share in this identity and support the community? Also, will the new taxes to build a school lead to Granville residents who are less inclined the support future levies? I am inclined to say yes. As others have noted, the last few levies have been close. A fraying of the shared identity/community feel could certainly lead to a downfall in support for the schools. I also see the benefit of a smaller school system; it fosters a feeling of community. Students at Granville know and grow up with most of their fellow students, often from kindergarten through high school. 

 

Finally, I think it is too easy to say that Granville has a diversity issue of its own doing. More often than not, jobs are what attract people to an area, especially with people who don't already have a connection. Granville is mostly residential, so I assume most residents work in Newark, Columbus or at Denison. Newark does not have a lot of diversity or jobs that attract/sponsor foreigners. Columbus obviously has more of this, but I would assume that they prefer to stay in Columbus where there are more cultural resources (ie the large Asian market in Hilliard or the Kenny Rd Center). In the Newark/Heath/Granville area, it is more of a chicken or the egg question. As you see diversity grow in New Albany or Pataskala, I believe it will eventually bleed over into Granville and Newark. 

 

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, mrCharlie said:

I absolutely agree the City of Newark should be fully in favor of this development, there is virtually no downside beyond some angry constituents in Park Trails.

 

 

This is the attitude that has led to such a divided and greedy country - "Screw my neighbor, as long as I benefit". We shouldn't be looking at this as Granville vs Newark. A better alternative would be looking at what is best for the entire area. It's the same issue I had with Adam Weinberg's comments about Granville having too high of standards for business development on farmland along Route 16 in Granville. Is that what's best for the area? In my opinion, the Newark/Heath/Granville area would benefit more if the old Rockwell/Meritor site was redeveloped instead. Keep the standards high to develop this farmland and maybe Granville will land another research center similar to Owens-Corning. 

 

 

 

On 1/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, mrCharlie said:

 

One downside is the “Granville tax” some businesses like to charge, at least some of them exploit the minimal competition and preference of residents to shop local with high prices, meh quality, and unambitious selection. This is more common in the places that have been around longer (who haven’t entirely accepted how easy it is to just go to Columbus now), many of the newer places would be competitive anywhere. This is one area I can see growth such making things better for current residents. More people to support things like a wider variety of restaurants and local stores, more competition to support the existing ones to actually try (and more customers if they do).

 

Lancaster used to have a very similar "tax" of its own. It went away about 15 years ago when the bypass opened and the traffic lights got taken off of 33. Plus internet shopping of course. Some people perceive that it is still like that and are suspicious of local businesses, assuming that "they're trying to rip you off" or "taking advantage of people who can't drive".

 

26 minutes ago, LythamLight said:

Just my take, but I feel there is a strong shared identity in Granville which is often overlooked by those who argue Granville should just get onboard with Central Ohio organizations and large new developments. Granville isn't (or wasn't...) full of chains and I think most residents are likely happy to pay a "Granville Tax" if it means supporting local businesses that help create the feeling of community.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said, and I certainly hope I'm not coming off as trashing Granville - we love it here! I'm not familiar enough with the regional planning around here to really comment on that one way or the other. My feeling is more that if Granville wants to keep being Granville, the smart move is to take action now and make sure we can ultimately keep decisions local.  It's very unfortunate that surrounding municipalities would take advantage of the demand for our school system, but its probably important to acknowledge that has already happened with Newark and there isn't much to keep it from happening again.
 

13 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Lancaster used to have a very similar "tax" of its own. It went away about 15 years ago when the bypass opened and the traffic lights got taken off of 33. Plus internet shopping of course. Some people perceive that it is still like that and are suspicious of local businesses, assuming that "they're trying to rip you off" or "taking advantage of people who can't drive".

 

I've been happy to see over the 10 years or so we've lived here that *most* of the business that were the worst about this are gone, which give opportunity for something better to open in one of the limited commercial locations. When we moved here there was restaurant called Brews, as well as an Italian place a few doors down which really weren't great and got worse over time. People still went, there weren't too many other options, people here like to support local and could walk to them. They did eventually go under, though there is still a coffee shop right in town with a great location and decisively meh coffee. The newer wave of places to eat (Alfie's, Steamroller, Three Tigers, Day y Noche, Sugar Sweet Bakery) are all great and would be competitive most anywhere in Columbus.

Edited January 22, 20214 yr by mrCharlie
reworded something

1 hour ago, LythamLight said:

Finally, I think it is too easy to say that Granville has a diversity issue of its own doing. More often than not, jobs are what attract people to an area, especially with people who don't already have a connection. Granville is mostly residential, so I assume most residents work in Newark, Columbus or at Denison. Newark does not have a lot of diversity or jobs that attract/sponsor foreigners. Columbus obviously has more of this, but I would assume that they prefer to stay in Columbus where there are more cultural resources (ie the large Asian market in Hilliard or the Kenny Rd Center). In the Newark/Heath/Granville area, it is more of a chicken or the egg question. As you see diversity grow in New Albany or Pataskala, I believe it will eventually bleed over into Granville and Newark. 

 

I meant to comment on this, but I think this is absolutely correct - the limited diversity in Granville is entirely chicken and egg. For the population size and semi-rural location it's pretty inevitable, at least in Ohio. I have unfortunately over the years seen a few Facebook posts in local groups (typically from non-minority people who moved here from a bigger city in a different part of the country) who try to say that the lack of diversity around here is because everyone is racist. It's infuriating.

I think the vast majority of people around here would welcome absolutely anyone who wants to live here, and realistically there probably isn't anything that can or should be done differently that would make a big difference in this regard. 

On 1/22/2021 at 4:34 PM, LythamLight said:

Just my take, but I feel there is a strong shared identity in Granville which is often overlooked by those who argue Granville should just get onboard with Central Ohio organizations and large new developments. Granville isn't (or wasn't...) full of chains and I think most residents are likely happy to pay a "Granville Tax" if it means supporting local businesses that help create the feeling of community. In general, as large corporations/chains have come to dominate our lives, America has lost this feeling of community and shared identity. Perhaps Granville has some things to learn from these Central Ohio organizations but they should also take note and incorporate some of the things that make Granville a strong community. 

 

With a strong shared identity comes a willingness to pay high taxes to support the local school district, etc. Will the new residents of high density developments (such as this proposed Newark development in Granville schools) share in this identity and support the community? Also, will the new taxes to build a school lead to Granville residents who are less inclined the support future levies? I am inclined to say yes. As others have noted, the last few levies have been close. A fraying of the shared identity/community feel could certainly lead to a downfall in support for the schools. I also see the benefit of a smaller school system; it fosters a feeling of community. Students at Granville know and grow up with most of their fellow students, often from kindergarten through high school. 

 

Finally, I think it is too easy to say that Granville has a diversity issue of its own doing. More often than not, jobs are what attract people to an area, especially with people who don't already have a connection. Granville is mostly residential, so I assume most residents work in Newark, Columbus or at Denison. Newark does not have a lot of diversity or jobs that attract/sponsor foreigners. Columbus obviously has more of this, but I would assume that they prefer to stay in Columbus where there are more cultural resources (ie the large Asian market in Hilliard or the Kenny Rd Center). In the Newark/Heath/Granville area, it is more of a chicken or the egg question. As you see diversity grow in New Albany or Pataskala, I believe it will eventually bleed over into Granville and Newark. 

 

 

This is the attitude that has led to such a divided and greedy country - "Screw my neighbor, as long as I benefit". We shouldn't be looking at this as Granville vs Newark. A better alternative would be looking at what is best for the entire area. It's the same issue I had with Adam Weinberg's comments about Granville having too high of standards for business development on farmland along Route 16 in Granville. Is that what's best for the area? In my opinion, the Newark/Heath/Granville area would benefit more if the old Rockwell/Meritor site was redeveloped instead. Keep the standards high to develop this farmland and maybe Granville will land another research center similar to Owens-Corning. 

 

 

 

 

See now this kind of thinking, i just cant get on board with, and this is exactly the kind of thinking that gives Granville its reputation.  Newark should 100% move forward with this development.  Newark should do what's in the best interest of Newark. So you want Newark to stop this development because you perceive this as a "Screw my neighbor, as long as i benefit" situation?  That makes absolutely zero sense to me in this situation.  The reality here, is that Granville has been doing this very thing to all of its neighbors for much longer than its been happening to them. Be honest, when was the last time Granville did anything like that for Newark?  Granville has put so much time, energy and effort into putting in "green space" buffering zones to protect themselves from Newark and remaining identical, that they never seem to consider the line of thinking that maybe some growth is needed and maybe...just maybe...will make Granville even "stronger".  At least 3-4 businesses have closed in downtown Granville this past year because of lack of business (mostly losing Newark customers).  Moe's left and went to a more business friendly climate and more diverse location and has literally tripled their margins.  They aren't the first and wont be the last...and this all comes from a "business as usual" mentality in Granville. 

 

Also, did i read that right where you said "Newark doesn't have a lot of diversity"?  Newark is THE most diverse community in Licking County...by a mile!  That's the EXACT reason i sent my kids to NCS...diversity!! Lastly, Newark has more jobs than what people think.  In fact, this is exactly the reason Newark is growing.  We have maintained our economic base reasonably well over the last 30 years (I agree with you about the Meritor site btw), and we engage with Heath and Western Licking County to help grow the Greater Newark Metro to attract jobs.  The Port Authority has done a great job with that.  Newark/Heath has State Farm, Owens Corning, Boeing and LMH Systems... plus thousands of jobs in the Newark Industrial Park.  Granville being a mostly white community is something they created...simply put. The irony is this, maybe this new development will help Granville schools diversify...ya never know? 

 

Again, i firmly believe Granville needs to adapt their growth policy (Maybe consider not being just a "residential" community). Unfortunately for Granville, growth is coming in every direction.  The quicker that realization starts, the better they will be at implementing a reasonable growth strategy that is anything other than "stay the same".  The reality is Newark/Heath/Pataskala all need Granville to be on board with the growth Licking County is about to experience, they need Granville's help in that. Granville being on board is vital to the success of Licking County over the next few decades.  Maybe then they would realize that they are the ones "screwing their neighbors"?  I appreciate your honesty though.  This is a great conversation, because these are going to happen more and more frequently over the upcoming years...and not just with Newark.  I truly hope Granville's residents see the greater good.  I apologize in advance if anything i said offends you or comes across wrong...i am just passionate about the growth of Newark/Heath/Granville metro.  No hard feelings.  

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by OhioFinest

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7 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

The reality here, is that Granville has been doing this very thing to all of its neighbors for much longer than its been happening to them. Be honest, when was the last time Granville did anything like that for Newark?  Granville has put so much time, energy and effort into putting in "green space" buffering zones to protect themselves from Newark and remaining identical, that they never seem to consider the line of thinking that maybe some growth is needed and maybe...just maybe...will make Granville even "stronger". 

 

 

I am trying to understand how Granville preserving green space hurts Newark (or the rest of Licking County). If anything, I'd think it helps Newark by pushing more development and business Newark's direction. Development that you say is a good thing. I think most Granville residents generally look at the green space program as trying to preserve the rural small town feel of the area, not as some buffer to keep Newark out. In my opinion, limiting development to specific areas should be more of a priority in this country (including greater Columbus). We can have smarter growth. Countries with higher population densities do it, such as England with their green belts. I think the issue that some may have is with the income inequality between the two communities. In my opinion, this is best solved by state and federal policies that reduce inequality, not trying to force Granville to develop further. We have plenty of land in this country, so preserving green space should not be an issues for communities that value a quieter/more rural environment. Additionally, perpetual growth is not guaranteed. At some point in the next few decades world population will stop growing. America already has way more retail space per square feet per capital than every other nation (ie US 23.5, Canada 16.8 Australia 11.2 and in fourth is the UK at 4.6). We need more sustainable planned development, rather than the idea that perpetual growth will continue.

 

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7 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

At least 3-4 businesses have closed in downtown Granville this past year because of lack of business (mostly losing Newark customers).  Moe's left and went to a more business friendly climate and more diverse location and has literally tripled their margins. 

 

As I understand it, Moe's did not have a significant takeout/delivery business in Granville prior to Covid. Within a mile of the Granville location, Moe's had 5k residents versus 11k at their Newark location. I'm sure the population difference is even more extreme if you look at the two mile populations. In an environment that greatly favors takeout/delivery, Moe's was always going to have a significantly easier time finding business in Newark. Also, I presume the rent Moe's pays in Newark is significantly less than what it paid in Granville. Either way, Granville is about to get another BBQ place, so clearly others still see opportunity. Again though, this isn't Granville vs Newark. The two are neighbors and should use their differences to the advantage of both. I think Newark benefits from the lack of chain retail options in Granville and Granville benefits from having a more residential community for people who prefer that lifestyle. 

 

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7 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

Also, did i read that right where you said "Newark doesn't have a lot of diversity"?  Newark is THE most diverse community in Licking County...by a mile! 

 

Yes, I stated Newark does not have a lot of diversity. 2019 estimates show Newark as 91% white. In comparison, Granville is roughly 90% white and the City of Columbus 60%. Looking at Newark schools specifically, it appears they have a 15% minority student body compared to the Ohio public school average of 30%. Regarding business, I don't deny that the business environment in Licking County and Newark are fairly strong (though State Farm did just leave). My point is that the types of businesses that bring diversity to an area aren't generally located in Newark (reflected by demographics mentioned above). Additionally, there aren't many ethnic grocery stores or restaurants in the area to attract more diversity. So those that claim that Granville has a diversity issue are overlooking the fact that there is nothing here to draw more diversity other than Denison and a few select businesses.

 

Further, Granville has a high median income, so to see significantly more diversity in Granville would likely require corporate and research jobs that are willing to pay high incomes and sponsor foreigners. It would be wonderful if Newark had more of these types of jobs but it's not there yet. Even if those jobs existed though, it would take awhile for the demographics to change as many would likely prefer Columbus communities that already have a cultural base. Again, chicken or the egg. If you believe Granville should be attracting more diversity that isn't highly educated foreigners, we again need to be looking at policy at the state and federal level. Median income among whites is $65k vs $41k for blacks and $51k for Hispanics (wiki). High income communities are naturally going to be white because they have a higher median income. I personally believe reducing income equality is more likely to lead to diverse communities, rather than forcing them to change the ways they develop.

 

Agree, great conversation. Newark has some great neighborhoods that have so much potential to develop further. I fear that Pataskala is growing without a plan. The future growth of Licking County will be interesting to follow.

18 minutes ago, LythamLight said:

 

I am trying to understand how Granville preserving green space hurts Newark (or the rest of Licking County). If anything, I'd think it helps Newark by pushing more development and business Newark's direction. Development that you say is a good thing. I think most Granville residents generally look at the green space program as trying to preserve the rural small town feel of the area, not as some buffer to keep Newark out. In my opinion, limiting development to specific areas should be more of a priority in this country (including greater Columbus). We can have smarter growth. Countries with higher population densities do it, such as England with their green belts. I think the issue that some may have is with the income inequality between the two communities. In my opinion, this is best solved by state and federal policies that reduce inequality, not trying to force Granville to develop further. We have plenty of land in this country, so preserving green space should not be an issues for communities that value a quieter/more rural environment. Additionally, perpetual growth is not guaranteed. At some point in the next few decades world population will stop growing. America already has way more retail space per square feet per capital than every other nation (ie US 23.5, Canada 16.8 Australia 11.2 and in fourth is the UK at 4.6). We need more sustainable planned development, rather than the idea that perpetual growth will continue.

 

As I understand it, Moe's did not have a significant takeout/delivery business in Granville prior to Covid. Within a mile of the Granville location, Moe's had 5k residents versus 11k at their Newark location. I'm sure the population difference is even more extreme if you look at the two mile populations. In an environment that greatly favors takeout/delivery, Moe's was always going to have a significantly easier time finding business in Newark. Also, I presume the rent Moe's pays in Newark is significantly less than what it paid in Granville. Either way, Granville is about to get another BBQ place, so clearly others still see opportunity. Again though, this isn't Granville vs Newark. The two are neighbors and should use their differences to the advantage of both. I think Newark benefits from the lack of chain retail options in Granville and Granville benefits from having a more residential community for people who prefer that lifestyle. 

 

Agree, great conversation. Newark has some great neighborhoods that have so much potential to develop further. I fear that Pataskala is growing without a plan. The future growth of Licking County will be interesting to follow.

 

When urbanists talk about preserving green spaces, we generally mean planned public green spaces that allow for human recreation on a fairly large scale.  The Columbus and Franklin County Metro Parks are green spaces.  The Cuyahoga Valley National Park is a green space, vastly larger than the private agricultural land that is the site of this proposed development.  Green space advocacy is not supposed to be a backdoor for NIMBYism--green spaces should be part of high quality development, not alternatives to it.

 

While we have plenty of land in this country, we do not have plenty of land in Granville.  Perhaps more importantly, we do not have plenty of land in central Ohio.  Any municipality (not just Granville) deliberately constricting the supply of new residential development solely to preserve "rural character" or some equivalently nostalgic and unsustainable dream primarily just makes their territory increasingly unaffordable.

 

Perpetual growth is not guaranteed.  But neither is eventual decline.  And the best evidence available is that we have many years of good growth ahead of us as a country and as a planet--and that's even discounting more speculative developments such as the development of healthy life extension technology and/or a cultural pendulum swing back towards younger and larger families.  Columbus is a growing metro area (in fact, I think it's the fastest-growing in the state, though I don't follow those figures as closely as I once did).  Granville is part of it and is going to be justifiably criticized for trying to have its cake and eat it too in terms of being part of that area.

Just wanted to add this has been a great discussion. As someone who live in Granville for about 10 years but grew up in the Cincinnati area, its great getting some backstory and perspective on the area beyond our own experience.

 

I'm mostly okay with the greenspace program and see it as another tool for shaping development in the area. I like when its used for buying land outright with the intent of eventually using them for public purposes (parks or preserves). I'm sort of mixed when it gets used for buying up development rights to private land, though I suppose it does stretch the funds further. I do believe there has been some discussions about if open space funds can be used for the proposed development, but I think it unclear if they can use it for land outside Granville Township. 

 

Either way, a lot of the purpose and need behind the greenspace program feels like yet another workaround for the limited options available at the township level to have some control over growth.

 

9 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

At least 3-4 businesses have closed in downtown Granville this past year because of lack of business (mostly losing Newark customers).  Moe's left and went to a more business friendly climate and more diverse location and has literally tripled their margins.  They aren't the first and wont be the last...and this all comes from a "business as usual" mentality in Granville. 

 

1 hour ago, LythamLight said:

As I understand it, Moe's did not have a significant takeout/delivery business in Granville prior to Covid. Within a mile of the Granville location, Moe's had 5k residents versus 11k at their Newark location. I'm sure the population difference is even more extreme if you look at the two mile populations. In an environment that greatly favors takeout/delivery, Moe's was always going to have a significantly easier time finding business in Newark. Also, I presume the rent Moe's pays in Newark is significantly less than what it paid in Granville. Either way, Granville is about to get another BBQ place, so clearly others still see opportunity. 

 

I could be remembering it wrong, but I think Moe's in Newark opened in 2017 - they had a few years of both locations, which didn't ever really seem sustainable. Moe's in Granville was very popular when it opened, often with a line well out the door. We liked it (despite often getting my order wrong...), but we could get more food for half the price at City BBQ. Between the second location nearby, Barrel and Boar opening as a more destination option, and Dickies on 21st it seemed like the upstairs bar was sustaining them in Granville for a while. We're really hoping for something good/interesting/different to land in that space, it's only a three block walk for us. The new BBQ place is probably even closer, but with the lack of real sidewalk on the viaduct it's not very walkable.

As for the other places off the top of my head that closed recently, Eat Up was in the invisible space above Whit's and changed hands (and menu) right before lockdown. We loved the previous menu, but it fell into the problem area of being the too "real" so it was slow for a lunch takeout place. Goumas retired (apparently long planned), and the popcorn place (which was pretty good) in the back of it was hidden and probably pretty reliant on touristy foot traffic.

We're very excited to see how well Mai Chau and Three Tigers are doing, and they should be a great fit in the old firehouse. They seem like they'll really make use of the space. Better still, it opens up another spot (or two!) for something new.