Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is a convenient way of measuring and comparing the size of national economies. Annual GDP represents the market value of all goods and services produced within a country in a year. Put differently:

 

GDP = consumption + investment + government spending + (exports – imports)

 

Although the economies of countries like China and India are growing at an incredible rate, the US remains the nation with the highest GDP in the world – and by far: US GDP is projected to be $13,22 trillion (or $13.220 billion) in 2007, according to this source. That’s almost as much as the economies of the next four (Japan, Germany, China, UK) combined.

 

The creator of this map has had the interesting idea to break down that gigantic US GDP into the GDPs of individual states, and compare those to other countries’ GDP. What follows, is this slightly misleading map – misleading, because the economies both of the US states and of the countries they are compared with are not weighted for their respective populations.

 

Pakistan, for example, has a GDP that’s slightly higher than Israel’s – but Pakistan has a population of about 170 million, while Israel is only 7 million people strong. The US states those economies are compared with (Arkansas and Oregon, respectively) are much closer to each other in population: 2,7 million and 3,4 million.

 

And yet, wile a per capita GDP might give a good indication of the average wealth of citizens, a ranking of the economies on this map does serve two interesting purposes: it shows the size of US states’ economies relative to each other (California is the biggest, Wyoming the smallest), and it links those sizes with foreign economies (which are therefore also ranked: Mexico’s and Russia’s economies are about equal size, Ireland’s is twice as big as New Zealand’s).

 

Top Ten:

1. California, it is often said, would be the world’s sixth- or seventh-largest economy if it was a separate country. Actually, that would be the eighth, according to this map, as France (with a GDP of $2,15 trillion) is #8 on the aforementioned list.

2. Texas’ economy is significantly smaller, exactly half of California’s, as its GDP compares to that of Canada (#10, $1,08 trillion).

3. Florida also does well, with its GDP comparable to Asian tiger South Korea’s (#13 at $786 billion).

4. Illinois – Mexico (GDP #14 at $741 billion)

5. New Jersey – Russia (GDP #15 at $733 billion)

[glow=yellow,2,300]6. Ohio – Australia (GDP #16 at $645 billion)[/glow]

7. New York – Brazil (GDP #17 at $621 billion)

8. Pennsylvania – Netherlands (GDP #18 at $613 billion)

9. Georgia – Switzerland (GDP #19 at $387 billion)

10. North Carolina – Sweden (GDP #20 at $371 billion)

 

Bottom 5:

47. Montana – Tunisia (GDP #69 at $33 billion)

48. North Dakota – Ecuador (GDP #70 at $32 billion)

49. Alaska – Belarus (GDP #73 at $29 billion)

50. Vermont – Dominican Republic (GDP #81 at $20 billion)

51. Wyoming – Uzbekistan (GDP #101 at $11 billion)

 

Ohio's other notable neighbors:

18. Indiana – Denmark (GDP #29 at $256 billion)

20. Michigan – Argentina (GDP #31 at $210 billion)

27. Kentucky – Portugal (GDP #38 at $177 billion)

 

This map was suggested by Morgan via [email protected], and can be found here. Please note that the GDP data used for this comparison are not necessarily the same as those used in compiling the original map.

 

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/131-us-states-renamed-for-countries-with-similar-gdps/

Vermont – Dominican Republic

 

Sad.  Just sad.

With so much money invested in the north i wonder why more jobs aren't being produced.

ohio has a high GDP than new york?

Yeah and I think Dubai's economy is probably about the size of the Michigan UP. 

I remember homeland security telling my planning class that if California was its own nation, it would be the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world...so I guess thats France.

I'm not exactly sure where the creator of this "strange map" got his "strange numbers"... but Ohio DOES NOT have the 6th largest GDP in the U.S.  Ohio ranks 7th.  I mean c'mon... Ohio has about half the population of New York (which has the nation's largest and most econmically powerful city)... that's only slightly less ridiculous than ranking NEW JERSEY above New York... think about it!

 

Here's the numbers from the Bureau of Economic Analysis

 

http://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_state/gsp_newsrelease.htm

 

State GDP, 2006

California $1.727 Trillion

Texas $1.065 Trillion

New York $1.021 Trillion

Florida $713.5 Billion

Illinois $589.5 Billion

Pennsylvania $510.2 Billion

Ohio $461.3 Billion

New Jersey $453.1 Billion

Michigan $381.0 Billion

Georgia $379.5 Billion

North Carolina $374.5 Billion

Virginia $369.2 Billion

Massachusetts $337.5 Billion

Washington $293.5 Billion

Maryland $257.8 Billion

Indiana $248.9 Billion

Minnesota $244.5 Billion

Tennessee $238.0 Billion

Arizona $232.4 Billion

Colorado $230.4 Billion

Wisconsin $227.2 Billion

Missouri $225.8 Billion

Connecticut $204.1 Billion

Louisiana $193.1 Billion

Alabama $160.5 Billion

Oregon $151.3 Billion

South Carolina $149.2 Billion

Kentucky $145.9 Billion

Oklahoma $134.6 Billion

Iowa $123.9 Billion

Nevada $118.3 Billion

Kansas $111.6 Billion

Utah $97.7 Billion

Arkansas $91.8 Billion

District of Columbia $87.6 Billion

Mississippi $84.2 Billion

New Mexico $75.9 Billion

Nebraska $75.7 Billion

Delaware $60.3 Billion

Hawaii $58.3 Billion

New Hampshire $56.2 Billion

West Virginia $55.6 Billion

Idaho $49.9 Billion

Maine $46.9 Billion

Rhode Island $45.6 Billion

Alaska $41.1 Billion

Montana $32.3 Billion

South Dakota $32.3 Billion

Wyoming $29.5 Billion

North Dakota $26.3 Billion

Vermont $24.2 Billion

 

and here's another happy little map on GDP growth rates

 

 

Here's a list of world countries ranked by GDP in 2006... Ohio ranks closest to 17th ranked Belgium.... Australia would be more equivalent to Florida.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

State GDP, 2010, best to worst, in billions.

 

1. Illinois: 651,518

2. Ohio: 477,699

3. Michigan: 384,171

4. Indiana: 275,676

5. Minnesota: 270,039

6. Wisconsin: 248,265

7. Missouri: 244,016

8. Iowa: 142,698

9. Kansas: 127,170

10. Nebraska: 89,786

11. South Dakota: 39,893

12. North Dakota: 34,685

 

Per-capita GDP by State, 2010, in thousands.

 

1. North Dakota: 46,336

2. Minnesota: 45,834

3. Illinois: 45,258

4. South Dakota: 44,425

5. Nebraska: 43,528

6. Iowa: 41,859

7. Kansas: 39,879

8. Wisconsin: 38,884

9. indiana: 37,815

10. Ohio: 36,937

11. Missouri: 36,243

12. Michigan: 34,915

 

Metropolitan GDP, 2010, in billions.

 

1. Chicago: 532,331

2. Minneapolis: 199,596

3. Detroit: 197,773

4. St. Louis: 129,734

5. Kansas City: 105,968

6. Cleveland: 105,625

7. Indianapolis: 105,163

8. Cincinnati: 100,594

9. Columbus: 93,353

10. Milwaukee: 84,574

11. Omaha: 47,556

12. Des Moines: 39,465

13. Madison, WI: 35,615

14. Dayton: 33,371

15. Grand Rapids, MI: 33,361

16. Akron: 27,586

17. Toledo: 26,605

18. Wichita: 26,299

19. Lansing, MI: 19,612

20. Ann Arbor, MI: 18,566

 

Per-capita metropolitan GDP, 2010, in thousands.

 

1. Des Moines: 62,863

2. Madison: 56,392

3. Minneapolis: 54,974

4. Indianapolis: 52,704

5. Chicago: 50,288

6. Milwaukee: 48,974

7. Omaha: 48,797

8. Ann Arbor, MI: 48,217

9. Kansas City: 47,072

10. Columbus: 45,598

11. Cleveland: 45,418

12. Cincinnati: 42,149

13. Detroit: 41,691

14. St Louis: 41,080

15. Grand Rapids, MI: 38,670

16. Lansing, MI: 37,726

17. Wichita: 37,576

18. Toledo: 36,435

19. Dayton: 35,669

20. Akron: 34,938

 

 

 

 

 

GDP is overrated.  It has not increased my paycheck.

For the raw numbers for the state GDP, the top four are no surprise but Minnesota's Twin Cities beating Missouri's two is quite surprising.  The second list shows multi-nodal states lose out comparing to uni-polar states such as Illinois and Minnesota.  Skews the numbers a bit.  Third list, Minneapolis beating Detroit, Des Moines (insurance center), and Madison are the clear standouts.

 

Bottom line is, if I want to live nicely, I'm moving to Des Moines!

GDP is overrated.  It has not increased my paycheck.

 

Probably the only things that would are: job longevity, experience, education, performance or health of the company.  Otherwise, most things about states or metro areas have nothing to do with individual paychecks.  That hardly makes them overrated.  They all play an important part in the economic health of a region.  I plan to add more catergories to this thread, to show where Ohio ranks in the Midwest.

Your units have to be off. Ohio's per capita GDP 36,937 in thousands is $36,937,000 ... per person. That's insane wealth!

Your units have to be off. Ohio's per capita GDP 36,937 in thousands is $36,937,000 ... per person. That's insane wealth!

 

Yeah, obviously it means $36,937.00.

Ohio is #7 is GDP overall (all 50 States) isn't it? Correlates with the population.

Ohio is #7 is GDP overall (all 50 States) isn't it? Correlates with the population.

 

It helps to have 6 of the top 20 largest Midwest economies.

But that also correlates to the population--we have six of the top 20 midwest economies because we have six significant metro areas. 

Since the BEA Gross Metropolitan Product (GMP) numbers for MSAs for 2011 don't come out until September, here are the combined GMP numbers by metro using the BEA numbers for 2010 and privately produced estimates for 2011 for some selected MSAs created my Moody Analytics and used by the Brookings Institution here: http://www.brookings.edu/info/metromonitor/monitor_maps.aspx. Their placement in a map makes this easy to use:

 

Percentage increase in Gross Metropolitan Product from January 2009 to December 2011

 

Cincinnati      4.83%

Columbus      3.77%

Indianapolis  8.39%

Cleveland      3.331%

Pittsburgh    5.75%

Detroit        4.57%

Chicago        3.73%

Job Markets are metro markets, so looking at metro job numbers gives the best picture of how job markets are actually doing in Ohio and the rest of the U.S.

 

Non-Farm Wage and Salary Jobs, January 2012 to March 2012 (in thousands)

 

                  January------February-------March------Total change

Cincinnati    977.8          982.2            996.9          +19,100

Columbus    911.2          917.0            920.5          +9,300

Cleveland    966.3          977.3            980.2          +13,900 

 

Since the BEA Gross Metropolitan Product (GMP) numbers for MSAs for 2011 don't come out until September 2012, here are the combined GMP numbers by metro using the BEA numbers for 2010 and privately produced estimates for 2011 for some selected MSAs created my Moody Analytics and used by the Brookings Institution here: http://www.brookings.edu/info/metromonitor/monitor_maps.aspx. Their placement in a map makes this easy to use:

 

Percentage increase in Gross Metropolitan Product from January 2009 to December 2011

 

Cincinnati      4.83%

Columbus      3.77%

Indianapolis  8.39%

Cleveland      3.331%

Pittsburgh    5.75%

Detroit        4.57%

Chicago        3.73%

 

Feel free to add evidence of how these metros are doing in jobs and overall economic activity.

Here are some interesting graphs of important employment stats that affect metro GDP for Ohio and other metros.

 

 

 

 

Cleveland seems to be the only ohio metro that stands out from the rest. Otherwise, it's a similar story for employment in Columbus and Cincinnati. Pittsburgh seem to have figured out how to grow employment. There might be something valuable for other older industrial metros to learn from Pittsburgh.

^ Columbus has nothing to learn from Pittsburgh because Columbus is a newer, younger city.  Cleveland has nothing in common with Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati has similar topography, but that's about it.  I grew up, and have all my family on both sides are from Western Pennsylvania (dad from Pittsburgh... Mount Lebanon and my mom is from Somerset).  I have no desire, and would hope that NE Ohio doesn't take any note from Western Pennsylvania, more specifically Cleveland and Pittsburgh.  Damn Yinzers.  I am half sarcastic and half serious.  In the Youngstown area it is either Cleveland or Pittsburgh.  Good for Pittsburgh's new changes, but I am more excited where Cleveland is headed.  Although, this proves what I have been saying on here, Cleveland's economy is not as good as everyone praises it to be.  Income is going no where but down, and so are housing prices.  Cleveland is still falling and has yet to hit rock bottom.

 

Pittsburgh, Pennsyltucky

Pittsburgh and Cleveland have rustbelt economies in common. Also the healthcare industry. Other than that, yeah, nothing. Pittsburgh has really capitalized on its universities, which Columbus and Cincinnati would have a much easier time replicating than Cleveland. And even still, Ohio simply doesn't have a Carnegie Mellon, and OSU and UC have a long way to go to reach the level of Pitt academically.

 

I think perhaps Pittsburgh's best fortune has been to catch the eyes of the right people. Richard Florida has done a lot for the city just by beating the drum on its renaissance. He says it, people believe it, it becomes self-fulfilling.

^huh? 

 

Cleveland has Case Western, which is ranked #38 on US News and World Report's National University rankings (about 15 spots behind Carnegie Mellon).  And tOSU is actually ranked ahead of Pitt by three spots in the same rankings. 

 

If you don't like those rankings, that's cool, but I can honestly say I've never heard anyone (and I know some real school snobs) talk about Pitt's academics favorably as compared to OSU.  (Granted that's a very specific topic.)

The Ohio State University is superior to the University of Pittsburgh academically and on par with the University of Cincinnati.  OSU is an excellent school and people know that around the world.  The amount of significant research OSU does even exceeds Carnegie and Case.  Cincinnati also has Miami University, an original Public Ivy with an amazing reputation on the East Coast, specifically.

 

The Cincinnati metro has the greatest growth potential in Ohio for the next 10 years because of the flexible job-sharing climate of southern Ohio's two major cities.  Live in Dayton, work in Cinti and vice-versa is something Columbus can't enjoy.  The performance of the market as defined Cleveland-Akron already has empirical evidence as it's already a CSA.  Cinti-Dayton has not maxed out in the least.

 

 

Pittsburgh and Cleveland have rustbelt economies in common. Also the healthcare industry. Other than that, yeah, nothing. Pittsburgh has really capitalized on its universities, which Columbus and Cincinnati would have a much easier time replicating than Cleveland. And even still, Ohio simply doesn't have a Carnegie Mellon, and OSU and UC have a long way to go to reach the level of Pitt academically.

 

I think perhaps Pittsburgh's best fortune has been to catch the eyes of the right people. Richard Florida has done a lot for the city just by beating the drum on its renaissance. He says it, people believe it, it becomes self-fulfilling.

 

Actually, the Cleveland and Cincinnati metros have pretty similar percentages of their overall jobs in manufacturing (something like 14%, I think,) and both are higher than in Pittsburgh (which is just under 10%.)  Cleveland and Pittsburgh do have larger education and healthcare sectors (26 and 27% of total jobs) than Cincinnati (22%) though. 

 

Brookings has a lot of fascinating data available for perusal, although you might have to dig for the most recent numbers.  At least for me, it really casts doubt on the conventional wisdom characterization of Cincinnati having a "diversified" economy, Cleveland and Pittsburgh having "rust belt" economies, and Columbus having an "education and government" economy.  There are differences in how they're structured, of course, but they're often not as great as you might expect, and there seem to be a lot of nebulous factors in metro economic performance that aren't immediately explainable just by saying a particular city is manufacturing-heavy, or has a lot of financial-sector jobs.

Having a higher percentage of jobs in the health/education sectors may actually suggest a.) less jobs and/or b.) a less diversified economy.

 

I've long felt the Ohio community didn't quite understand how much of a manufacturing town Cincinnati is and has been throughout its history.  Sometimes people don't think it's manufacturing if it isn't a vehicle or metal alloy.  Strangely enough, Ford makes transmissions in Cincinnati and Toyota has a large presence in northern Kentucky.

Pittsburgh and Cleveland have rustbelt economies in common. Also the healthcare industry. Other than that, yeah, nothing. Pittsburgh has really capitalized on its universities, which Columbus and Cincinnati would have a much easier time replicating than Cleveland. And even still, Ohio simply doesn't have a Carnegie Mellon, and OSU and UC have a long way to go to reach the level of Pitt academically.

 

I think perhaps Pittsburgh's best fortune has been to catch the eyes of the right people. Richard Florida has done a lot for the city just by beating the drum on its renaissance. He says it, people believe it, it becomes self-fulfilling.

 

Actually, the Cleveland and Cincinnati metros have pretty similar percentages of their overall jobs in manufacturing (something like 14%, I think,) and both are higher than in Pittsburgh (which is just under 10%.)  Cleveland and Pittsburgh do have larger education and healthcare sectors (26 and 27% of total jobs) than Cincinnati (22%) though. 

 

Brookings has a lot of fascinating data available for perusal, although you might have to dig for the most recent numbers.  At least for me, it really casts doubt on the conventional wisdom characterization of Cincinnati having a "diversified" economy, Cleveland and Pittsburgh having "rust belt" economies, and Columbus having an "education and government" economy.  There are differences in how they're structured, of course, but they're often not as great as you might expect, and there seem to be a lot of nebulous factors in metro economic performance that aren't immediately explainable just by saying a particular city is manufacturing-heavy, or has a lot of financial-sector jobs.

 

If you guys are interested, I could do a breakdown of % of jobs by industry to total jobs by metro.  That might help get a better idea of the diversity of jobs.

Job diversity by metro, based on % of jobs by industry to total number of non-farm jobs.

 

Akron

Mining/Logging/Construction: 3.1%

Manufacturing: 12.7%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 19.5%

Information: 1.2%

Financial Activities: 4.3%

Professional and Business Services: 15.2%

Education and Health: 16.2%

Leisure and Hospitality: 8.2%

Other Services: 4.1%

Government: 15.4%

 

Cincinnati

Mining/Logging/Construction: 3.4%

Manufacturing: 11.1%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 19.7%

Information: 1.4%

Financial Activities: 6.1%

Professional and Business Services: 15.5%

Education and Health: 15.3%

Leisure and Hospitality: 10.4%

Other Services: 4.0%

Government: 13.0%

 

Cleveland

Mining/Logging/Construction: 2.8%

Manufacturing: 12.5%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 17.9%

Information: 1.5%

Financial Activities: 6.7%

Professional and Business Services: 13.7%

Education and Health: 19.3%

Leisure and Hospitality: 7.8%

Other Services: 4.2%

Government: 13.5%

 

Columbus

Mining/Logging/Construction: 2.9%

Manufacturing: 6.8%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 19.4%

Information: 1.8%

Financial Activities: 7.8%

Professional and Business Services: 16.3%

Education and Health: 15.1%

Leisure and Hospitality: 9.3%

Other Services: 3.9%

Government: 16.7%

 

Toledo

Mining/Logging/Construction: 3.4%

Manufacturing: 13.3%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 19.2%

Information: 1.1%

Financial Activities: 3.6%

Professional and Business Services: 11.5%

Education and Health: 17.4%

Leisure and Hospitality: 10.4%

Other Services: 4.3%

Government: 15.8%

 

Youngstown

Mining/Logging/Construction: 3.2%

Manufacturing: 13.6%

Trade/Transportation/Utilities: 20.5%

Information: 1.0%

Financial Activities: 4.0%

Professional and Business Services: 9.9%

Education and Health: 19.9%

Leisure and Hospitality: 9.4%

Other Services: 4.4%

Government: 13.9%

 

Some differences that really stand out to me is that Columbus has, by far, the lowest % of manufacturing jobs and it, like Youngstown, have fewer industries that represent 10% or more of the availabe jobs (4 vs 5/6) than everywhere else. 

BTW, those numbers are for February.

^huh? 

 

Cleveland has Case Western, which is ranked #38 on US News and World Report's National University rankings (about 15 spots behind Carnegie Mellon).  And tOSU is actually ranked ahead of Pitt by three spots in the same rankings. 

 

If you don't like those rankings, that's cool, but I can honestly say I've never heard anyone (and I know some real school snobs) talk about Pitt's academics favorably as compared to OSU.  (Granted that's a very specific topic.)

 

Admittedly, I was going on memory/perception. I stand corrected. I still think CWRU's reputation is much lower than CMU's, regardless of rankings. Maybe they offer a wider variety of subjects, too? I know CWRU's law school is well-regarded, but that's frankly all I think of when I hear the name of the school.

 

The Ohio State University is superior to the University of Pittsburgh academically and on par with the University of Cincinnati.  OSU is an excellent school and people know that around the world.  The amount of significant research OSU does even exceeds Carnegie and Case.  Cincinnati also has Miami University, an original Public Ivy with an amazing reputation on the East Coast, specifically.

 

UC ranks pretty low on national and international rankings. I'm not sure why it doesn't rank higher, since the programs I am familiar with are pretty strong nationally (not just DAAP programs). I know UC has an inclusionary policy which may be hurting their standings, but IMO make the school a better "corporate" citizen.

 

If Miami were actually in city limits and not far outside the 275 loop, it would serve more like CMU as a multiplier on the perceived academic offerings of the city. CMU is closer to UPitt than XU is to UC, and they are in an urban area. The relationship is different on a lot of levels. What exists in Oxford is significant to the regional economy, but it's not really raising the perception of Cincinnati's academic credentials directly (unlike CMU does for Pittsburgh).

 

Actually, the Cleveland and Cincinnati metros have pretty similar percentages of their overall jobs in manufacturing (something like 14%, I think,) and both are higher than in Pittsburgh (which is just under 10%.)  Cleveland and Pittsburgh do have larger education and healthcare sectors (26 and 27% of total jobs) than Cincinnati (22%) though. 

 

Brookings has a lot of fascinating data available for perusal, although you might have to dig for the most recent numbers.  At least for me, it really casts doubt on the conventional wisdom characterization of Cincinnati having a "diversified" economy, Cleveland and Pittsburgh having "rust belt" economies, and Columbus having an "education and government" economy.  There are differences in how they're structured, of course, but they're often not as great as you might expect, and there seem to be a lot of nebulous factors in metro economic performance that aren't immediately explainable just by saying a particular city is manufacturing-heavy, or has a lot of financial-sector jobs.

 

I'd be interested to see the historic manufacturing numbers for these cities, as well as current an historic breakdowns by type. Manufacturing soap, e.g., is not exactly as "rustbelt" as manufacturing steel. I think what I'm getting at is that there can also be diversification in manufacturing, which there might be evidence for in Cincinnati given the lack of a major union culture. A bunch of smaller companies and facilities, with different products for different industries, rather than behemoths that make a major city into a "company town", leaving it vulnerable. Currently, that obviously doesn't apply to any of these cities, but the momentum is still there to contend with -- in both tangible and intangible ways.

 

Whatever case you might make that Cincinnati's economy is like Cleveland's or Pittsburgh's, you will have to explain why Cincinnati's MSA never stopped growing, while Pittsburgh's and Cleveland's have been shrinking since the 50s/60s.

Having a higher percentage of jobs in the health/education sectors may actually suggest a.) less jobs and/or b.) a less diversified economy.

 

I've long felt the Ohio community didn't quite understand how much of a manufacturing town Cincinnati is and has been throughout its history.  Sometimes people don't think it's manufacturing if it isn't a vehicle or metal alloy.  Strangely enough, Ford makes transmissions in Cincinnati and Toyota has a large presence in northern Kentucky.

 

Actually, having a high percentage of jobs in any single sector would suggest a less-diversified economy, no?

 

I'd be interested to see the historic manufacturing numbers for these cities, as well as current an historic breakdowns by type. Manufacturing soap, e.g., is not exactly as "rustbelt" as manufacturing steel. I think what I'm getting at is that there can also be diversification in manufacturing, which there might be evidence for in Cincinnati given the lack of a major union culture. A bunch of smaller companies and facilities, with different products for different industries, rather than behemoths that make a major city into a "company town", leaving it vulnerable. Currently, that obviously doesn't apply to any of these cities, but the momentum is still there to contend with -- in both tangible and intangible ways.

 

Whatever case you might make that Cincinnati's economy is like Cleveland's or Pittsburgh's, you will have to explain why Cincinnati's MSA never stopped growing, while Pittsburgh's and Cleveland's have been shrinking since the 50s/60s.

 

Why?  You made the comparison between Cleveland and Pittsburgh's economies, and I just said they aren't as similar as maybe you thought.  There are other threads for talking about population changes.

Yeah, obviously they aren't that similar now, since Pittsburgh is recognized as springing back and Cleveland is seen as still in freefall mode. Pittsburgh has made a transition which Cleveland is struggling to get to. MissinOhio made a comment about what the 3Cs have to learn from Pittsburgh, which makes historic similarities relevant. That's the context in which I made the comment you replied to. You only mentioned current stats, which are only a small piece of the picture.

"Admittedly, I was going on memory/perception. I stand corrected. I still think CWRU's reputation is much lower than CMU's, regardless of rankings. Maybe they offer a wider variety of subjects, too? I know CWRU's law school is well-regarded, but that's frankly all I think of when I hear the name of the school."

 

I think you are pretty far off on this natininja.  CWRU's law school is decent but not great but their medical school is excellent.  They might not be quite up there with Carnegie Mellon overall but it is pretty close.  You don't seemed informed enough to be making such assertions. 

 

I also think the whole Pittsburgh doing great thing is a bit overstated.  The city still lost about 9% of its population over the past 10 years so it has its own problems still.  Cleveland was hurt pretty bad over a few year period in the mid 2000's but I don't think the difference between Cleveland Pittsburgh is that big now especially with all the new development going on in Cleveland.

Cleveland is in a freefall?

Case Western's law school is good, but not top-shelf.  It's on part with UC's.  Ohio State has the highest-rated law school in the state, by a fair margin (though as little as 10-15 years ago, UC was neck and neck with it in the rankings).  Case is a very good school with a great reputation for a lot of things, including medicine. 

It's funny I overlooked the med school since the one person I know IRL who went there got their MD. You guys are missing the broader point I was making, though, that Cleveland has little to learn from Pittsburgh in the way Pittsburgh has leveraged their universities to be a major player in their economic revitalization. Cleveland just doesn't have an equivalent of the University of Pittsburgh, which is a major omission when trying to use that strategy.

 

I agree Pittsburgh is not nearly as far ahead of Cleveland as it is hyped to be. That's why I spoke in terms of perception. Still, there are some indicators that Pittsburgh is further along than Cleveland. I was making use of the idea that the common perceptions being so divergent (Pittsburgh has made a major turnaround and Cleveland is a little Detroit) cannot be 100% delusional. There are some significant differences. One being that Pittsburgh has actually posted positive numbers in MSA population change.

 

Let me be clear: I do not buy that Cleveland is a little Detroit, and I do not buy that Pittsburgh is all roses.

 

I feel like we've gotten bogged down by details, a couple of which I have admittedly botched, and started to miss the broader points which are sound.

Pittsburgh and Cleveland have rustbelt economies in common. Also the healthcare industry. Other than that, yeah, nothing. Pittsburgh has really capitalized on its universities, which Columbus and Cincinnati would have a much easier time replicating than Cleveland. And even still, Ohio simply doesn't have a Carnegie Mellon, and OSU and UC have a long way to go to reach the level of Pitt academically.

 

I think perhaps Pittsburgh's best fortune has been to catch the eyes of the right people. Richard Florida has done a lot for the city just by beating the drum on its renaissance. He says it, people believe it, it becomes self-fulfilling.

 

Healthcare in a way, yes.  Pittsburgh is more into robotics and technology, Cleveland more healthcare and bio technology.  Pittsburgh gets a lot of attention because certain people have let it be known what Pittsburgh has done, Cleveland has not had the luxury.  Pittsburgh's turnaround started before Cleveland's (about 5-10 years).  Although Cleveland I think has caught up and are within a couple years of where Pittsburgh was.  Cleveland needs to let it be known what they have done and what they offer, because in my honest opinion, Cleveland has an edge on Pittsburgh in most categories.

 

Also, I think you are forgetting that Cleveland is home to Case.  Columbus can lay claim to OSU which brings in a large student population, but Case is an awesome research school that really flies under the radar and is probably the state's most prestigious school.

It's funny I overlooked the med school since the one person I know IRL who went there got their MD. You guys are missing the broader point I was making, though, that Cleveland has little to learn from Pittsburgh in the way Pittsburgh has leveraged their universities to be a major player in their economic revitalization. Cleveland just doesn't have an equivalent of the University of Pittsburgh, which is a major omission when trying to use that strategy.

 

I agree Pittsburgh is not nearly as far ahead of Cleveland as it is hyped to be. That's why I spoke in terms of perception. Still, there are some indicators that Pittsburgh is further along than Cleveland. I was making use of the idea that the common perceptions being so divergent (Pittsburgh has made a major turnaround and Cleveland is a little Detroit) cannot be 100% delusional. There are some significant differences. One being that Pittsburgh has actually posted positive numbers in MSA population change.

 

Let me be clear: I do not buy that Cleveland is a little Detroit, and I do not buy that Pittsburgh is all roses.

 

I feel like we've gotten bogged down by details, a couple of which I have admittedly botched, and started to miss the broader points which are sound.

 

Pittsburgh is growing according to estimates.  Putting Cleveland and Pittsburgh in the same sentence as Detroit doesn't make sense.  One thing that helps Pittsburgh, like Cincinnati, the topography hides a lot of the nasty rotting buildings.  Throughout a lot of Pittsburgh, it is like driving through Appalachian towns.  Being in the Golden Triangle and North Shore looks great, but get away from all that.  There is nothing like driving out of the Fort Pitt Tunnel, and Mount Washington is great!  But Pittsburgh gets so over hyped, I have a feeling it will be one of those places where things will build up so quickly it will leave a lot disappointed.

Cleveland is in a freefall?

 

That's news to me as well.

CWRU is probably most renowned for its engineering programs.

 

Pittsburg is ahead of Cleveland, if you could make their respective "transformations" into a race.  Cleveland never really hit the same rock bottom level which lit a fire under Pittsburgh's a&& to let go of the past.  Perhaps our short gilded age in the early 90's put the transition to something more sustainable on hold.  Bad comparison though.  Cleveland compares much better to the other Great Lakes cities.

I actually do think Cleveland could learn a thing or two from Pittsburgh, and I think it already is.  I think both cities have realized that health care will be one of the growth-driving industries of the future.  Pittsburgh may be leveraging its universities more to salutary effect, and the Pittsburgh healthcare industry is better for it, but Cleveland already had (and has) the Clinic.  With respect to using universities as engines of neighborhood growth, it's true that Pitt's flagship universities are more strategically placed, but Cleveland isn't completely out of that game, either.

 

And to avoid narrowing the Ohio vs. Midwest GDP thread into just Cleveland, with respect to Columbus, I think it could learn a bit from Pittsburgh as well, but possibly even more from Indianapolis--another Midwestern/Great Lakes city that's not actually on the Great Lakes.  As the stats above note, Indianapolis has been far out in front of the pack in terms of GMP growth the past couple of years.

It's not that we can't learn anything from Pittburgh.  We can.... and I'm sure there is a thing or two Pittsburgh can learn from any of the 3C's.  I just don't like the mentality that Pittsburgh is our most comparable city.  I see many more similarities between Pittsburgh and Cincy, than Pittsburgh and Cle.  One could argue, in fact, that Cincy is a better comparable for Cle..... and we all know how different those two cities are.

Job diversity by metro, based on % of jobs by industry to total number of non-farm jobs.

 

Some differences that really stand out to me is that Columbus has, by far, the lowest % of manufacturing jobs and it, like Youngstown, have fewer industries that represent 10% or more of the availabe jobs (4 vs 5/6) than everywhere else.

 

All jobs are jobs. They all count. Two $50,000 per year jobs count equally in every way whether they are "manufacturing", "business services", or "information". If the market supports two jobs with equal pay, it values those jobs equally. Job categorization has little use for those outside career counseling and education planning. The market lets us know what has value. Just follow it.

Job diversity by metro, based on % of jobs by industry to total number of non-farm jobs.

 

Some differences that really stand out to me is that Columbus has, by far, the lowest % of manufacturing jobs and it, like Youngstown, have fewer industries that represent 10% or more of the availabe jobs (4 vs 5/6) than everywhere else.

 

All jobs are jobs. They all count. Two $50,000 per year jobs count equally in every way whether they are "manufacturing", "business services", or "information". If the market supports two jobs with equal pay, it values those jobs equally. Job categorization has little use for those outside career counseling and education planning. The market lets us know what has value. Just follow it.

 

Hah!  There's a lot more to markets than that.

 

Two $5bn companies are valued equally by the market, but if one is growing at 20% per year and one is growing at 2% per year (or shrinking), the market has a lot more to tell you than just the market value at any given moment in time.

 

The same concept applies to jobs and job diversity.  The still photo is useful, but the motion picture is more so.

Job diversity by metro, based on % of jobs by industry to total number of non-farm jobs.

 

Some differences that really stand out to me is that Columbus has, by far, the lowest % of manufacturing jobs and it, like Youngstown, have fewer industries that represent 10% or more of the availabe jobs (4 vs 5/6) than everywhere else.

 

All jobs are jobs. They all count. Two $50,000 per year jobs count equally in every way whether they are "manufacturing", "business services", or "information". If the market supports two jobs with equal pay, it values those jobs equally. Job categorization has little use for those outside career counseling and education planning. The market lets us know what has value. Just follow it.

 

What does this response have to do with the information given?  Some people were talking about the diversity of jobs in cities, so I just posted the breakdown of job catergories in a metro.  Nowhere did I make any attempt to say that specific job catergories had more value over others.  Again, you need to read what I post before commenting. 

My dad can beat up both of your dads.

Ha! Everyone thinks they know better than the market. Socialists think they can eliminate markets collectively and right-wingers think they're the 'smartest guys in the room' who can outsmart them individually. Both are proved wrong again and again. If two similarly sized companies are growing at very different rates, their market capitalization wouldn't be the same. Stock owners take such things into account. The same with labor markets. Whatever your labor is worth at the time you perform it takes into accout all the costs and benefits to which that labor may be put to use over varying time frames. At any given level of skill and experience, people seek to balance the short-term and long-term costs and benefits of the work they accept. Think real estate agent versus govn't secretary. Current market prices of anything aren't single frames in a film, they are the sum total of all the frames in the film so far and predictions about the frames yet to be seen. Markets are much more complicated than we can posssibly understand. The failure of economists to predict the great collapse have shown that yet again.

One of the most interesting things about the sector-diversity stats to me was that Columbus was actually the lowest of the group (though by a likely-statistically insignificant amount in some cases) in the "health and education" category, despite the presence of OSU, Columbus State (which is very large in its own right), and many smaller colleges, as well as the OSU Medical Center and all the various other hospital systems in the city (OhioHealth, Mt. Carmel, etc.).

 

I also note that Columbus has the largest share of government employment of any of the group, but its lead isn't as large as I'd expected on that front, given its status as the state capital (and as a county seat and a city itself, of course).

One of the most interesting things about the sector-diversity stats to me was that Columbus was actually the lowest of the group (though by a likely-statistically insignificant amount in some cases) in the "health and education" category, despite the presence of OSU, Columbus State (which is very large in its own right), and many smaller colleges, as well as the OSU Medical Center and all the various other hospital systems in the city (OhioHealth, Mt. Carmel, etc.).

 

I also note that Columbus has the largest share of government employment of any of the group, but its lead isn't as large as I'd expected on that front, given its status as the state capital (and as a county seat and a city itself, of course).

 

 

Touché, the "Diversified Columbus economy" isn't as diversified as perceived. Very interesting.

I would think that there is some difference in the 'type' of government jobs.  Take the AG's office, for instance.  All of the section chiefs are in Columbus.  The people in the satelitte offices are lower on the totum pole...... and, thus, lower on the pay scale.  Columbus's government jobs are also probably kept under control due to the fact that the City covers such a large part of the MSA.  It's MSA doesn't have 50 different police, fire, service, etc. departments.

One of the most interesting things about the sector-diversity stats to me was that Columbus was actually the lowest of the group (though by a likely-statistically insignificant amount in some cases) in the "health and education" category, despite the presence of OSU, Columbus State (which is very large in its own right), and many smaller colleges, as well as the OSU Medical Center and all the various other hospital systems in the city (OhioHealth, Mt. Carmel, etc.).

 

I also note that Columbus has the largest share of government employment of any of the group, but its lead isn't as large as I'd expected on that front, given its status as the state capital (and as a county seat and a city itself, of course).

 

Columbus doesn't actually have the largest share of government jobs.  I just now noticed, but I forgot to list Dayton, which has a 17.5% share, which is above Columbus.  Still, for Columbus being the capital, the % difference is not as great between all the metros on government as people like to suggest.

 

In regards to the health and education catergory, you bring up a good point.  I've seen it said repeatedly that OSU dominates Columbus, along with state government, and yet it doesn't lead the state in either catergory.  This suggests, at least to me, that Columbus does have a diverse workforce that doesn't rely on a few catergories... or at least not the ones people assume it does.  Unfortunately, I am not able to break the numbers down any further to find out just where the jobs are in the industries.

 

Someone mentioned historical numbers, which got me interested to see how those percentages have changed, and to see what were the dominant industries 10 or 20 years ago vs today.