I will say it again.  Worrying about merging the MSAs is losing focus on the actual problem  Merging the MSAs will fix nothing.

 

That's not entirely true. Listen to what Tracey Nichols (during Pinney City Club meeting) had to say about the negative effects of not having a larger MSA.

 

If this were really a huge issue then every MSA the same size as Cleveland and amaller would be growing at the same of slower rate than Cleveland.  Did we maybe lose out on a potential deal or 2?  Maybe.  But this is a non-issue, IMO.

I will say it again.  Worrying about merging the MSAs is losing focus on the actual problem  Merging the MSAs will fix nothing.

 

That's not entirely true. Listen to what Tracey Nichols (during Pinney City Club meeting) had to say about the negative effects of not having a larger MSA.

 

If this were really a huge issue then every MSA the same size as Cleveland and amaller would be growing at the same of slower rate than Cleveland.  Did we maybe lose out on a potential deal or 2?  Maybe.  But this is a non-issue, IMO.

 

It may be a non-issue to you, but it has hurt the region...I recommend listening to what Tracey had to say about it. I don't recall where, but someone posted the vid on uo.com. 

 

Edit:

 

 

Go to the 35min mark.

I will say it again.  Worrying about merging the MSAs is losing focus on the actual problem  Merging the MSAs will fix nothing.

 

That's not entirely true. Listen to what Tracey Nichols (during Pinney City Club meeting) had to say about the negative effects of not having a larger MSA.

 

If this were really a huge issue then every MSA the same size as Cleveland and amaller would be growing at the same of slower rate than Cleveland.  Did we maybe lose out on a potential deal or 2?  Maybe.  But this is a non-issue, IMO.

 

It may be a non-issue to you, but it has hurt the region...I recommend listening to what Tracey had to say about it. I don't recall where, but someone posted the vid on uo.com.

 

I know that Tracey brought that up but it doesn't explain how Cincinnati and Columbus are growing faster.  They have similar MSAs. 

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

Regionalism is something we can actually work on and change.  I agree with that. And Tracey is a go getter and a good deal maker/ problem solver, I will not argue that.  If I were to put together a 10 step program for our region, I would put getting the MSA merged at number 10.  It can help but is not the most important thing to work on.

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

That's true, but our lack of regionalism is more so about having 57 independently competing municipalities within Cuyahoga County and more than 200 municipalities within the existing Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA. Cleveland or East Cleveland or Elyria or Warrensville Heights or Wickliffe lack the resources to address its decaying infrastructure, schools, lead poisoning, polluted vacant industrial lands etc. A weakening area needs to be able to draw upon the resources of a strengthening area to undertake needed remedies. Without them, the blight worsens and spreads.

 

And yes, regionalism extends to other metros as well. More than 50 years ago, each metro area in Ohio and surrounding states had their own economic sectors, albeit with some similarities. Detroit made cars. Akron made rubber. Cincinnati and Buffalo made aircraft and parts. Canton made roller bearings. Toledo made glass. Lima and Erie made locomotives. But even where there was some similarities (ie: Cleveland, Youngstown and Pittsburgh all had significant steel manufacturing production), there was an interdependency among them, with each city making steel for different customers and sectors.

 

Today, it seems like each metro area is chasing after the same thing -- eds and meds, distribution centers, advanced manufacturing, etc.

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

Today, it seems like each metro area is chasing after the same thing -- eds and meds, distribution centers, advanced manufacturing, etc.

 

We keep trying to "move on from" manufacturing, while successful metros are aggressively seeking it.  What we need to move on from is this jilted lover mentality.  Manufacturing is still a big deal here and a big part of any realistic turnaround scenario.

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

 

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

 

Benefits of combined MSA

 

A combined MSA would boost the Cincinnati-Dayton region into the top 20 largest metropolitan areas in the country. According to the 2015 estimates, Cincinnati’s MSA ranks 28th in the United States and boasts a population of nearly 2.2 million across 15 counties in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana.

 

Dayton is smaller with a total estimated population of 800,909 in four counties. If the MSAs are combined, the area will reach a population of approximately 3 million and rank 19th in the country.

 

These statistics are important because they make the southwest Ohio region more attractive to companies looking to locate in a large city, especially if those companies want a more affordable area than metros like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.

 

A larger workforce, access to more universities, and other benefits are key to winning larger bids and attracting more business to southwest Ohio. Heightened interest in the region will increase the volume and velocity of commercial real estate in the marketplace.

 

http://rebusinessonline.com/cincinnati-dayton-closing-the-gap-why-the-push-to-merge-the-msas-is-a-winning-strategy/

^Same logic applies to Cleveland.  There are many benefits of being a top 20 MSA, but no one has listed any real negatives. 

^Same logic applies to Cleveland.  There are many benefits of being a top 20 MSA, but no one has listed any real negatives.

 

If those two regions want a top 20 metro, then build a top 20 metro. It's not like there's someone at the Census Bureau who hasn't flipped a switch.

^Same logic applies to Cleveland.  There are many benefits of being a top 20 MSA, but no one has listed any real negatives.

 

If those two regions want a top 20 metro, then build a top 20 metro. It's not like there's someone at the Census Bureau who hasn't flipped a switch.

 

Thanks for that enlightening response. 

Oddly enough, the presence of Cuyahoga Valley National Park is probably the sole reason why Cleveland and Akron isn't a unified MSA. It's hard to be a contiguous region when you have a large national park right between the two cities. So the region gets the benefit of having a national park right outside the cities, but the tradeoff is not getting to be a consolidated MSA, a metric that few people outside of the real estate and planning worlds care about.

 

The presence of the national park has nothing to do with why Cleveland-Akron isn’t a MSA. Furthermore, the area between the two cities along the I-271, SR8 and SR91 corridor has a decent amount of development (take a look at a satellite picture). SF-SJ, LA-Riverside have contiguous development between them but yet they aren’t MSAs. On the other hand Franklin County (Columbus) has two adjacent counties, Madison and Pickaway, that have no relationship in terms of development to Columbus but yet they are part of Columbus’ MSA. So the bottom line is that these MSA definitions have nothing to do with contiguous development. They have everything to do with politics and to a lesser extent, commuting patterns. And because there is so much overlap between the Cleveland and Akron areas in northern Summit and Portage counties and SE Cuyahoga County and southern Geauga County, the CSA would be a more accurate way of measuring the GDP. Using the MSA in THIS region just isn’t accurate. It’s a joke!!

^ My understanding was that there was a pretty transparent process for determining MSA and CSA boundaries, and it's almost entirely based on commuting patterns. More specifically, I think it's based on a percentage of commuters from county to county, which probably does benefit counties with fewer residents. 'Politics' shouldn't have anything to do with it. Who stands to gain, politically, from keeping Cleveland and Akron separate MSAs? Did these politicians feel that getting them in the same CSA was worth the political fight, but MSA would expend too much political capital? Please.

 

I absolutely think the national park has helped keep the two MSAs separate. If that park land was developed with sprawl, there would be more residents in Southern Cuyahoga and Northern Summit counties, and there would almost surely be more commuting between the two as a result. Having that large gap in development basically right where the counties would have the most pronounced overlap definitely has an impact on the MSA designation.

 

A similar situation can be found in Southern California, where there is almost contiguous development between LA and San Diego, save for a huge military base- Camp Pendleton at the northern edge of San Diego County. While the two would probably still be separate MSAs even if Camp Pendleton didn't exist (again, due to commuting patterns), the fact that they are not a single CSA has a lot to do with that development gap. There are some people who live in Southern Orange County who commute into metro San Diego, and I'm sure there are some commuters who do the reverse, but the military base prevents the seemless blending of the two that would otherwise have no doubt already occurred long ago. Same deal with Cleveland and Akron.

^I don’t feel that the park is very conducive to full blown development. There was already a lot of metro parks for both summit county anf Cuyahoga county surrounding and in the valley. Many of thr parts of the cvnp would be metro parks today.  The valley is too rugged for housing developments. 

  There are 2 super highways that go between the counties that seem to be ever expanding in width. I imagine there will be a tipping point to where there is enough people driving between the counties for work.

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

 

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

 

Benefits of combined MSA

 

A combined MSA would boost the Cincinnati-Dayton region into the top 20 largest metropolitan areas in the country. According to the 2015 estimates, Cincinnati’s MSA ranks 28th in the United States and boasts a population of nearly 2.2 million across 15 counties in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana.

 

Dayton is smaller with a total estimated population of 800,909 in four counties. If the MSAs are combined, the area will reach a population of approximately 3 million and rank 19th in the country.

 

These statistics are important because they make the southwest Ohio region more attractive to companies looking to locate in a large city, especially if those companies want a more affordable area than metros like New York, Los Angeles or Chicago.

 

A larger workforce, access to more universities, and other benefits are key to winning larger bids and attracting more business to southwest Ohio. Heightened interest in the region will increase the volume and velocity of commercial real estate in the marketplace.

 

http://rebusinessonline.com/cincinnati-dayton-closing-the-gap-why-the-push-to-merge-the-msas-is-a-winning-strategy/

 

That didn't answer my question.  I'm asking if simply piling on more cities would actively encourage a regional strategy.  Would Akron really care about helping Cleveland if it was in the same metro?  Or vice versa? 

Oddly enough, the presence of Cuyahoga Valley National Park is probably the sole reason why Cleveland and Akron isn't a unified MSA. It's hard to be a contiguous region when you have a large national park right between the two cities. So the region gets the benefit of having a national park right outside the cities, but the tradeoff is not getting to be a consolidated MSA, a metric that few people outside of the real estate and planning worlds care about.

 

The presence of the national park has nothing to do with why Cleveland-Akron isn’t a MSA. Furthermore, the area between the two cities along the I-271, SR8 and SR91 corridor has a decent amount of development (take a look at a satellite picture). SF-SJ, LA-Riverside have contiguous development between them but yet they aren’t MSAs. On the other hand Franklin County (Columbus) has two adjacent counties, Madison and Pickaway, that have no relationship in terms of development to Columbus but yet they are part of Columbus’ MSA. So the bottom line is that these MSA definitions have nothing to do with contiguous development. They have everything to do with politics and to a lesser extent, commuting patterns. And because there is so much overlap between the Cleveland and Akron areas in northern Summit and Portage counties and SE Cuyahoga County and southern Geauga County, the CSA would be a more accurate way of measuring the GDP. Using the MSA in THIS region just isn’t accurate. It’s a joke!!

 

Why don't Madison and Pickaway have any connections to Columbus?  Contiguous development isn't a standard used to add counties to metros, btw. 

Commuting patterns are one of the primary requirements.  Politics only plays a role if one county elects not to agree to be added to a metro.  So if there aren't combinations happening even with all other criteria being met, you'd only have your own regions to blame for that.  So if there is obvious overlap and all the Census standards are being met, it would seem that maybe Akron doesn't want to be with Cleveland or Cleveland doesn't want to be with Akron.  Same with Dayton and Cincinnati if that's the case.  This is why I raised the question about regional cooperation. 

Directly from the census bureau:

 

Mergers occur when adjacent CBSAs become a single CBSA because the central county or counties (as a group) of one CBSA qualify as the central county or counties (as a group) of the other CBSA. These combinations were based on the employment interchange measure between two CBSAs, defined as the sum of the percentage of commuting from the smaller area to the larger area and the percentage of employment in the smaller area accounted for by workers residing in the larger area.

 

Hopefully that's enough to shut down the argument that MSAs can "choose" to merge.

^ Maybe Cin would be growing even faster if their MSA was combined with Dayton's?  Who knows? Columbus is an entirely different kind of animal and isn't really applicable because of their geographical location.

 

All I know is that I trust Tracey's knowledge and opinion on this subject more than just about anybody else. 

 

Let me ask you this..How does combining Cle with Akr hurt our region?

 

IMO not having a unified NEO (regionalism) is the biggest issue facing our region.  Jobs, public transit, education, etc..all suffer under our current "ego system".

 

Serious question... is there much indication that the region would work together better than the city does with its suburbs?  Aren't you just assuming that Akron is going to have the same interests as Cleveland, and that they're going to be willing to put their own best interests aside for the good of the greater region?  That seems unlikely.  Same with Cincinnati, which has a notoriously bad relationship with its suburbs.  I'm not sure throwing Dayton on top makes it better.  The only thing that would change is perhaps federal funds.

 

There is collaboration going on with the City of Cincinnati and Dayton. They collaborated together on the HQ2 bid a while back and there is a bunch of things going on behind the scenes regarding regional transportation issues they are working on together.

Oddly enough, the presence of Cuyahoga Valley National Park is probably the sole reason why Cleveland and Akron isn't a unified MSA. It's hard to be a contiguous region when you have a large national park right between the two cities. So the region gets the benefit of having a national park right outside the cities, but the tradeoff is not getting to be a consolidated MSA, a metric that few people outside of the real estate and planning worlds care about.

 

The presence of the national park has nothing to do with why Cleveland-Akron isn’t a MSA. Furthermore, the area between the two cities along the I-271, SR8 and SR91 corridor has a decent amount of development (take a look at a satellite picture). SF-SJ, LA-Riverside have contiguous development between them but yet they aren’t MSAs. On the other hand Franklin County (Columbus) has two adjacent counties, Madison and Pickaway, that have no relationship in terms of development to Columbus but yet they are part of Columbus’ MSA. So the bottom line is that these MSA definitions have nothing to do with contiguous development. They have everything to do with politics and to a lesser extent, commuting patterns. And because there is so much overlap between the Cleveland and Akron areas in northern Summit and Portage counties and SE Cuyahoga County and southern Geauga County, the CSA would be a more accurate way of measuring the GDP. Using the MSA in THIS region just isn’t accurate. It’s a joke!!

 

Why don't Madison and Pickaway have any connections to Columbus?  Contiguous development isn't a standard used to add counties to metros, btw. 

Commuting patterns are one of the primary requirements.  Politics only plays a role if one county elects not to agree to be added to a metro.  So if there aren't combinations happening even with all other criteria being met, you'd only have your own regions to blame for that.  So if there is obvious overlap and all the Census standards are being met, it would seem that maybe Akron doesn't want to be with Cleveland or Cleveland doesn't want to be with Akron.  Same with Dayton and Cincinnati if that's the case.  This is why I raised the question about regional cooperation.

 

It’s been a few years since I saw the data, but Hamilton and Montgomery counties weren’t even that close to hitting the threshold for MSA commuting metrics. But Cin/Day is a bit different than Cleveland/Akron because there is a county between the two primary counties, whereas Summit and Cuyahoga are neighboring counties. I don’t think the Cincinnati-Dayton connections are all that strong, actually. They have separate tv, radio, and newspapers, after all. He situation in Cin/Day is one of the sprawl creating kind of a subregion of its own, that is neither entirely of Cincinnati or entirely of Dayton. Butler County alone has 400,000 people, and it really has no true core city. Warren County is over 200,000 now, and it too is almost entirely sprawl. Definitely more akin to DFW than MSP. I’m not familiar enough with Cleveland or Akron to speak on that dynamic.