Chris Wetterich at the Business Courier tries to answer the question that I've been pondering: With the failure of Clifton Market, will Northside's very similar grocery co-op succeed?

Couple things:

-There isn't a nearby Kroger or other grocer in the area, right? That certainly gives them a leg up

-Less population and less avg income, but they are actually using a low-cost supplier (probably lower-quality produce too), which makes all the difference.  It is so hard to bring in enough bodies to your store when you charge premium prices for premium food. 

 

Not sure if anyone ventures to my neck of the woods in Wyoming, but there is a grocery in Hartwell that does well for all types of incomes and demographics.  Country Fresh Farm Market on Vine St is one of my favorite groceries in Cincinnati. If I were to open a co-op, I'd be asking questions about how they do so well.

There's the Kroger on Kenard, which is only about a mile and a half from the heart of Northside. Clifton Market is about equidistant from the Kenard Kroger and the Corryville Kroger. Any independent grocer is going to have a hard time competing with either of the Uptown Krogers, from a price, variety and (of course, this being Cincinnati) a free parking standpoint. 

Edited December 2, 20186 yr by BigDipper 80

I've been on Spring Grove and Mitchell so many times, and never even knew that there was a Kroger back over there.  Interesting spot for a grocery store.

 

This is slightly off topic, but I think the problem with these co-op stores isn't so much their lack of economies of scale.  It is just that Americans in general make large, less frequent runs to the grocery, and Kroger is perfectly tailored to that.  These co-ops are meant to be neighborhood stores where you walk/bike and pick up a few things for the next meal or two, but not much further in advance than that.  The gaslight district seems like a decent place to try out that experiment, but it's not easy to change habits.  Especially if you are expecting a Kroger  experience, one that none of these stores will ever be able to replicate.

Exactly. Small grocery stores can work (see Aldi), but convincing people to shop 2-3 times a week instead of biweekly or monthly is a big cultural shift that has to happen in tandem with these co-ops. That, and convincing people that it's totally possible to walk a mile with 3-4 bags of groceries. 

That's the problem, outside of downtown with the new Kroger combined with the streetcar, I don't know if I see it happening.  I try hard to not use a car for groceries to help kick car-dependent habits (Kroger is 2 miles along a bike path away from me, and the Country Fresh store is 1 mile along neighborhood roads), but it certainly is not easy.  I don't really know how regular people can be convinced to actually do this.

Edited December 2, 20186 yr by 10albersa

On 12/2/2018 at 8:14 AM, BigDipper 80 said:

Exactly. Small grocery stores can work (see Aldi), but convincing people to shop 2-3 times a week instead of biweekly or monthly is a big cultural shift that has to happen in tandem with these co-ops. That, and convincing people that it's totally possible to walk a mile with 3-4 bags of groceries. 

People in larger cities already shop this way.   I agree that the cultural shift is difficult.

That's where transit is important, and why Northside might actually have a better go at it.  It's much easier to stop in at the store multiple times a week when you're already walking by on the way home from the bus/train.  Once you need to get in the car, then it becomes a weekly stock-up and it's just as easy to drive to Kroger. 

The average person buys way more crap than they need.  A huge percentage of groceries are never eaten.  The profitable grocery store chains target buyers who waste what they buy.  So it's an uphill battle for those benevolent souls who want people to buy stuff they're actually going to eat. 

 

Plus, Kroger, etc., intentionally waste a lot of food as loss leaders.  They put lots of fruit and cakes and bread near the entrance that they know will never sell.  Gets the average fat American all chubbed-up. A co-op can't compete with that. 

Edited December 5, 20186 yr by jmecklenborg

Do loaves of bread really need to be 18 inches long still? People don't have 6 kids anymore.

Edited December 5, 20186 yr by GCrites80s

If they make them half as long they'll just reduce the price by 25% and screw the people buying them.

44 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Do loaves of bread really need to be 18 inches long still? People don't have 6 kids anymore.

 

That drives me crazy, too. I can never go through a whole loaf of bread before it turns moldy. In general, I would love to see more groceries sold in smaller quantities. As a single person who lives alone, it's very hard to use up all the groceries I get, so I've had to get smart about making things in advance and then freezing them to use later.

This is getting way off topic...but aren't "half-loafs" of bread available in pretty much every grocery store now?

I haven't seen them in 10 years probably; at least not in any meaningful selection.

You can probably get Wonder Bread white loaves in half sizes, but yeah, that's about it

*comes to UrbanOhio to read about new project developments in the city. Conversation about half loaves of bread dominating the SW Ohio board.*

28 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

*comes to UrbanOhio to read about new project developments in the city. Conversation about half loaves of bread dominating the SW Ohio board.*

 

And we haven't even gotten to the white bread vs wheat bread debate...

 

Let's get this thread back on topic folks!

 

 

20 minutes ago, JYP said:

And we haven't even gotten to the white bread vs wheat bread debate...

 

Let's get this thread back on topic folks!

 

Wheat, obviously. Great idea though. So if Clifton Market goes away, does this leave the neighborhood choosing between Kroger and a couple small, ethnic grocers? Any other alternatives?

 

But I do agree that it is a transit-oriented and cultural shift that Americans are just unwilling to make now, especially in Cincinnati. Going to the grocery store once a week to stock up is just the norm, unfortunately...

 

I went into Clifton Market when it opened. They had a juicer and a sign that said "juice bar coming soon" 

 

Went back months later and still not open. The juicer was sitting within direct line of sign of the produce section and they never seemed to make the connection. 

I believe that the juice bar was actually open one time I went there, maybe 2 months after it opened. 

Some positive news from Clifton:

 

#1 - Clifton Market is FULLY Stocked back to the levels when it was opened. The parking lot was full last night when I stopped in to shop. Hopefully the new owners can keep the shelves stocked and keep this market open!!!

 

#2 - Gaslight Bar & Grill just opened last night in the old library space at the corner of Ludlow and Ormond. They did a great job with the renovation and the photos from the rooftop dining area look great! I am heading there for dinner tonight. 

 

#3 - CCAC decision will be made at the Parks Board Meeting next week, so we will know if they are going to be able to move forward or not, the design looks great, the location is non-invasive into the "woods" areas of the park. I think CCAC has taken community input seriously and tried to make a great plan that is enviromentally friendly and will enhance the park. If the renderings are what get built, it would be a nationally prominent building as it would be the first designated "Living Building" INFO HERE to be built in Cincinnati (at least to my knowledge). 

 

#4 - The Clifton Neighborhood School is currently being renovated by CPS ready for students next year (grades Pre-K, K, 1st and 2nd, adding grades as kids move up). Should give  a great option to parents in the neighborhood now that Fairview is only magnet school and not a neighborhood option anymore, which should attract families. 

The Park board voted down the CCAC building in Burnet Woods.  

https://www.citybeat.com/news/blog/21037785/cincinnati-park-board-says-no-to-ccac-in-burnet-woods

Not terribly surprising.  I always thought the proposed development on Howell was a better location for CCAC anyways.  Although it doesn't seem like the CCAC likes that option.

I am pretty disappointed in this decision. I thought that it was a well thought out idea that fit well into the park. While I also think the development on Howell could be a good fit as well. By some accounts, that project is on hold due to funding issues with the underground garage portion of the development (which is not confirmed but makes sense). I just hope this does not mean the end of this wonderful community organization, without a home. 

Did the Board members who voted "no" articulate why? The CityBeat article doesn't quote anybody from the Board who voted against it. I'm extra puzzled since at the same meeting they gave approval to "continue exploring plans for an update of the existing, WPA-built Trailside Nature Center by The Camping and Education Foundation."   

This is unfortunate, but to be expected:  https://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/clifton-market-lender-files-for-foreclosure

It is extremely difficult for a small independent grocer  to compete with giants like Kroger, especially in Clifton since Kroger opened their new Corryville store.

Consider this store now closed:   https://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/city-inspectors-shut-down-clifton-market-over-missing-paperwork

It opened back up Friday afternoon.  It's open today. 

Clifton Market open for business sat at 7pm

A new record store has opened behind Habanero. 

 

Wait that Indian place closed?

That was an Indian grocery store, I thought they moved to another location nearby.

Somebody drove over the gas light at the corner of Ludlow & Middleton. 

 

 

New owner of Clifton Market says that he is going to make it more like Jungle Jim's and less like Kroger:

https://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/new-owner-plans-up-to-500k-in-upgrades-to-clifton-market

The Clifton Cultural Arts Center will build a new building at 3412 Clifton Avenue, currently owned by and used as overflow parking for Dewey's.

That's a great spot for the new CCAC. It's right next to the heart of the Ludlow business district. It's on an empty surface lot. Great news all around. 

 

 

This is my favorite quote from the article:

“Similar to CCAC’s mission to bring people together through art, nourishing our community is the vision of Dewey’s Pizza,” Andrew DeWitt, Dewey’s chairman, said in a news release.

So the Skyline parking isn't part of the deal, it's just the 'L' shaped parcel? 

I doubt it is the entire L-shaped Dewey's parking lot. Probably just the unpaved "overflow" part of the lot facing Clifton Ave.

Yeah, it's just the gravel lot closest to the Methodist church. 

 

https://www.cliftoncommunity.org/ludlow-avenue-safety-improvement/

On 11/6/2020 at 2:17 PM, Dev said:

 

https://www.cliftoncommunity.org/ludlow-avenue-safety-improvement/

That stretch of road is so much wider than needed. 

58 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

That stretch of road is so much wider than needed. 

 

We tend to think of streets like that being a product of the post-WWII automobile era, but that part of Ludlow Avenue was built in the 1920s, bypassing the older curvier stretches that were cut off and renamed Old Ludlow.  Many of the main roads in Cincinnati that had streetcar routes were built with a 55' or 60' pavement width.  The 55' wide ones like Montgomery Road in Pleasant Ridge/Kennedy Heights, Delta Avenue, and this part of Ludlow are challenges because of that 5' difference.  Still, these streets, along with other wide ones like Madison, Erie, Gilbert, Spring Grove, Clifton, and Reading all had their present sizes established between 1880 and 1930, with most from 1900 to 1920.  It was a projection of prosperity and machine-age scale and excess, sometimes dubbed hypertrophism.  

20 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

 

We tend to think of streets like that being a product of the post-WWII automobile era, but that part of Ludlow Avenue was built in the 1920s, bypassing the older curvier stretches that were cut off and renamed Old Ludlow.  Many of the main roads in Cincinnati that had streetcar routes were built with a 55' or 60' pavement width.  The 55' wide ones like Montgomery Road in Pleasant Ridge/Kennedy Heights, Delta Avenue, and this part of Ludlow are challenges because of that 5' difference.  Still, these streets, along with other wide ones like Madison, Erie, Gilbert, Spring Grove, Clifton, and Reading all had their present sizes established between 1880 and 1930, with most from 1900 to 1920.  It was a projection of prosperity and machine-age scale and excess, sometimes dubbed hypertrophism.  

Yeah, it still should be narrowed! Make a huge median in the middle, or wide tree lawns on both sides... or protected bikes lanes... or some combination... anything to narrow it and help slow cars. 

^ I think wide tree lawns are gorgeous. Large medians are as well but I assume they are not as effective at traffic calming since the vehicles are separated.

This is already such an open/wooded area with no consistent building frontages that the tree lawns/boulevards would lose their definition and impact.  A 10' median would be fine in a two-way turn lane where there's nothing to turn into.  My main comment is that a protected/buffered bike lane is more important going downhill, because it's a fast descent that requires some extra maneuvering space.   I like option 2 though I can't tell which way is downhill versus uphill from the graphics.  

In the 1920s, when Ludlow was rebuilt as the wide avenue it still is, it was anticipated that Central Parkway would be extended to Mitchell Ave. along the path of what instead became I-75.  So there was the belief that wide Ludlow was going to carry a lot more traffic than it ever did.  A subway station was built beneath the top of the Ludlow Viaduct, so there was also the expectation that the area where the mess of buildings around Streng St. is as well as the former police station was going to become something much more significant than what it was. 

 

From a biking perspective, the downhill ride has sucked for the past 5+ years because the pavement has gotten much choppier than it appears to the driver.  It's okay on commuter bike but on a road bike you rattle like you're riding over rumble strips.  I avoid it on a road bike because I have to keep hitting the brakes to avoid vibrating right off the bike. 

Like that stretch of Ludlow, Delta has a similar ~55' ROW, and it got a diet a few years ago that will probably be the City's preferred alternative since it's the lowest cost approach (not moving any curbs, only changes involve paint):

 

Parking - unprotected bike lane - traffic - center turn lane - traffic - unprotected bike lane - parking

22 hours ago, jwulsin said:

Yeah, it still should be narrowed! Make a huge median in the middle, or wide tree lawns on both sides... or protected bikes lanes... or some combination... anything to narrow it and help slow cars. 

Hamilton ave in northside is bound by cars and that makes it two lanes most of the day. Go stand and watch the cars pass at 50+ mph.

21 hours ago, RJohnson said:

Hamilton ave in northside is bound by cars and that makes it two lanes most of the day. Go stand and watch the cars pass at 50+ mph.

Honestly not sure what your point is. I think we need to do more to slow cars down, including on Hamilton!

All people did in the '70s and '80s was whine about how slow the cars being sold at the time were. Fast forward to today -- every idiot has 300 horsepower and it sucks.